TV and Radio   permalink

Is there a 'Heaven': No.

This discussion has been closed.

Messages: 1 - 18 of 18
  • Message 1. 

    Posted by LupinWeasley (U14883834) on Sunday, 29th May 2011

    Of course there isn't. When you die you rot in the ground and that's the end. I don't see why that should create fear either or make you want to commit suicide. Thinking this way makes me feel as though if this life is all that I have, then I want to live it to the fullest that I can, do everything I feel can make a positive change and leave a mark on this tiny earth.
    I'm so tired of religious believers being so self righteous, those who believe in the God of Classical Theism anyway, a God whose traits make him unable to exist, thus the inconsistent triad arises.


    I cannot wait till the day where people can think for themselves and not rely on some book because they are too weak to admit they are followers.

    Report message1

  • Message 2

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by BBC-account-holder (U14761700) on Sunday, 29th May 2011

    Sayyy

    The trouble with you is you think you are not following books also.

    Accept almost no idea you have ever had in your head is your own.

    You got one kind of indoctrination the religious people have got another.

    Which books are you following? Richard Dawkins? Stephen Hawking?

    Neither of them know if there is any God or heaven, and neither do you.

    The start of thinking for yourself would be to realise that you cannot go making statements as you just have without any evidence.

    You think that because scientists cannot find evidence for something it does not exist. Whereas rationally, that only means that it *may* or *may not* exist but the scientists can't find any evidence they accept.

    Because in any case, heaven in the grown up version of religion/spirituality is not a place, but a state of consciousness or being. It is Buddha's enlightenment or Jesus's "kingdom of heaven within."

    It is the samadhi of the Hindus and the nirvana of the Buddhists, it is the ecstasy of the Christian saints.

    All these people had such experiences, many of them are modern enough to have described them, so we know they are actual historical figures like Ramakrishna in India, of whom many photographs exist.

    Science can't explain these experiences, so pretends they don't exist or are delusions.

    If God exists, just as with "heaven", He is a non-physical being/intelligence, and thus beyond the capacity of scientists to adjudicate upon, and yours.

    The real beginning of intelligence and thinking for yourself is the realistion that you don't know very much. Then you become open to *possibilities* instead of having prejudiced ideas, which you clearly have.

    You probably are shocked to be described as prejudiced, but that is actually what you are on these issues.

    You don't know if a God or heaven exists, but you have pre-judged, decided you know already, without any evidence, before the fact, and utterly dismissive of those who claim to have had experiences of both God and heaven, without any way of knowing if these experiences had by Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, etc. were genuine.

    Report message2

  • Message 3

    , in reply to message 2.

    Posted by LupinWeasley (U14883834) on Sunday, 29th May 2011

    Obviously my thoughts have been influenced from those around me, obviously. that is obvious.
    but i do not endlessly quote from a book that has no relevance in this modern day.
    I don't have a 'book' that i go to when i need guidence so not i don't have 'richard dawking'
    You are a prime example of the sort of person that is too far wrapped up in your religion to be open minded.

    And by me saying that i don't believe in god is the same as you saying you do believe in god.

    It's okay for a religious person to say their views and be heard but as soon as someone says, you know what, i don't believe in god, it's like

    :O

    OH MY GOD ARE YOU CRAZY YOU'RE SO RUDE AND INSENSITIVE TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE. OMG
    ...

    it's riduclous, and i'm being just as blasé and as you are when you 'know' god is real, by me saying that he does not exist.

    I don't believe in God. The End.

    Report message3

  • Message 4

    , in reply to message 3.

    Posted by BBC-account-holder (U14761700) on Sunday, 29th May 2011

    Lupin

    You haven't addressed the fact that I've said you've stated a fact - i.e. no heaven exists - without having any evidence, without having investigated the subject properly.

    i.e. you've not behaved rationally, as a real scientist should.

    Scientists can't make statements without evidence, proof.

    I didn't anywhere say I *believed* in God, or a God.

    I simply think that it is the most likely explanation of all that exists, based on the fact that there are so many and so many even mindbogglingly detailed descriptions of such a God coming from the various scriptures.

    They all (over thousands of years) keep coming up and *quite independently* with the same formula, the same realisation.

    They get an "oh my god" moment when all their previous ideas - mere ideas you see, like yours, without *experience* - are demolished, and they come into contact with this awesome being *inwardly*, which causes many of them even to kneel or bow down or in cases even faint.

    I'm not saying this it *true*, I am just saying what the spiritual literature says, and there is tons of it stretching over thousands of years, literally tons of it.

    So what was this experience these people were having?

    Was it the outcome of deluded or insane minds as Mr Dawkins suggests?

    The gospel, Biblical and religious scriptures would suggest not.

    Mohammed was a brilliant military leader who fought and won wars to establish his society.

    Jesus was a philosopher so unique, he is still discussed by billions thousands of years later.

    Moses was a prince, who led his people to freedom from bondage by the Egyptian dictators of the time.

    Buddha was also a prince, who turned his back on his kingdom, so important did he believe his inner experience of "enlightenment" was.

    These people were brilliant geniuses, like Confucius, whose philosophy still guides much of Chinese society even today.

    So when these people say they experienced God and that He exists, it is not idiots who are speaking, but people who showed themselves influential and brilliant in all kinds of ways.

    Another modern example would be the Maharishi, who even if he were just considered a businessmen, created a vast worldwide organisation in a very short time, that was astounding even by modern business standards.

    What have *you* personally achieved in life in comparison to these beings?

    Have you had millions and billions swear by your every word as these people have, the prophets? Do you think you ever will have that kind of influence?

    And by the way, discussions don't finish on this message board when *you* decide they do.

    If you want this discussion to finish, I'd advise you to not reply, though I won't reply back again anyway, unless there's any point.

    Yes, I can understand how you have contempt for those who appear to blindly believe, but you should try putting yourself in their situation to understand why they do as they do.

    Imagine for example you are a Muslim somewhere in the Middle East, who may be subject any day now to a Western bombing campaign for whatever justification the Western governments think up.

    You are powerless, almost helpless in the face of the Western superpower's military forces.

    You see no justice, and the only possible hope you may have, is if there is a God in heaven, who will give you justice, when clearly men on this planet will not.

    There are millions of poor and suffering people in all kinds of ways in the world who also have no other hope than that a God exists.

    If you personally don't feel you need one, then lucky you, but in the end, you may find the suffering of life will make you reconsider that option.

    It's easy to deny God when you are young, healthy, fit, strong, or even when you are wealthy and powerful even if you are old, but life breaks every one of us - it's just a matter of time, so let's see just how long it is that you hold on to your "unbeliefs."

    Report message4

  • Message 5

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by LupinWeasley (U14883834) on Sunday, 29th May 2011

    (I didn't read everything you wrote cause it's long and mostly just quotes)

    When did i say i was a scientist?

    I guessed that you believed in God, you didn't have to say it.


    God always seems to find his way into the minds of the fragile, therefore implying that when you are at your weakest point, you will find God.
    But doesn't that just mean that you're looking for anything that will help you cope, or make you have 'faith' It's just the 'done' thing isn't it, to turn to God.

    I believe in fate, and that's all i need. If is wasn't meant to be, it wasn't meant to be and that is enough for me.


    Going off on a mild tangent, although i do not believe god to be real, i don't think that it's right for religious believers to compromise anything. If they don't accept Gays then they don't, if they don't believe in abortions then they don't, they shouldn't have to change and accommodate society. You either believe in God, or you don't. And if you don't then you might have horoscopes, fate, or nothing.
    You shouldn't have to go along with society if you don't believe in something, even i think its wrong to 'hate gays' or what have you, if a christian hates gays, although i HATE that they hate gays, as they are true to what they believe then it's 'okay' for them to say it.

    would you agree?

    Report message5

  • Message 6

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by Shaker2011 (U14275953) on Monday, 30th May 2011

    Jesus was a philosopher so unique, he is still discussed by billions thousands of years later.

    Moses was a prince, who led his people to freedom from bondage by the Egyptian dictators of the time.

    Buddha was also a prince, who turned his back on his kingdom, so important did he believe his inner experience of "enlightenment" was.

    These people were brilliant geniuses, like Confucius, whose philosophy still guides much of Chinese society even today.

    So when these people say they experienced God and that He exists 


    Can you point me to the passages in the Pali canon - or, indeed, anywhere at all - where the Buddha says that he experienced God and that God exists, please?

    Report message6

  • Message 7

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by Shaker2011 (U14275953) on Monday, 30th May 2011

    Imagine for example you are a Muslim somewhere in the Middle East, who may be subject any day now to a Western bombing campaign for whatever justification the Western governments think up.

    You are powerless, almost helpless in the face of the Western superpower's military forces.

    You see no justice, and the only possible hope you may have, is if there is a God in heaven, who will give you justice, when clearly men on this planet will not. 


    Waaagh waaagh waaagh, pie in the sky when you die, by and by. Ever read George Orwell's 'Animal Farm'? Remember the bit about Big Rock Candy Mountain? You should, you should.

    There are millions of poor and suffering people in all kinds of ways in the world who also have no other hope than that a God exists.

    If you personally don't feel you need one, then lucky you, but in the end, you may find the suffering of life will make you reconsider that option.

    It's easy to deny God when you are young, healthy, fit, strong, or even when you are wealthy and powerful even if you are old, but life breaks every one of us - it's just a matter of time, so let's see just how long it is that you hold on to your "unbeliefs." 


    What a craven, contemptible and nakedly coward attitude you exhibit. No surprise to anybody familiar with your overlong ramblings, granted, but contemptible all the same.

    Report message7

  • Message 8

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by Gary Heron (U2441558) on Monday, 30th May 2011

    BBC-account-holder


    There are millions of poor and suffering people in all kinds of ways in the world who also have no other hope than that a God exists.
     


    Are you suggesting that the probability of god existing varies in proportion to the number of people who hope god exists?

    Report message8

  • Message 9

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Fizzy (U14891386) on Thursday, 2nd June 2011

    hi,

    so your saying that 'Of course there isn't. When you die you rot in the ground and that's the end.' ...
    The question is whats the purpose of that? your just come in this world do what you do as a human and then you rot in the ground. Don't you think there is more to in then that ?

    Report message9

  • Message 10

    , in reply to message 9.

    Posted by Gary Heron (U2441558) on Friday, 3rd June 2011

    Fizzy


    Don't you think there is more to in then that ?
     


    No. What more do you want. When you look at the amount of matter that exists in the universe and the tiny fraction of that matter which is both alive and sentient, its like winning a million lotteries.

    Are you saying that god has to exist to give you a purpose in life.?

    I would also like to know does the idea that you were created by god for some unknown reason and after this life will spend eternity telling god how wonderful he is for having created you realy give your life purpose?

    Report message10

  • Message 11

    , in reply to message 9.

    Posted by Astro (U5209345) on Friday, 3rd June 2011

    Hi Fizzy

    The question is whats the purpose of that? your just come in this world do what you do as a human and then you rot in the ground. Don't you think there is more to in then that ?  

    The overwhelming probability is that that is exactly the state of play. Why would humans be any different to any other species on this planet?

    The question of 'why are we here?' has bugged man since he was first able to think conscious thoughts and man has searched ever since for the answer. For some, it is a god. However distasteful it may seem, humans are no different to viruses when it comes to life - anything to keep the species going and that's pretty much it (in my opinion).

    Report message11

  • Message 12

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by yellowcat (U218155) on Thursday, 16th June 2011

    You haven't addressed the fact that I've said you've stated a fact - i.e. no heaven exists - without having any evidence, without having investigated the subject properly. 

    I would point out that it is up to those people making bizarre and outlandish conjectures (such as believing entirely without evidence in the existence of heaven and presumably the survival of some form of aware mind after death) to provide evidence for said conjectures if they wish to be taken seriously.

    Was it the outcome of deluded or insane minds as Mr Dawkins suggests?
     


    Delusion is not necessarily the same as insanity, people may hold delusional beliefs such as belief in god and remain largly sain in other respects.

    The gospel, Biblical and religious scriptures would suggest not. 

    Really? I would disagree with you on that, some of the characters have obvious mental health problems.


    It's easy to deny God when you are young, healthy, fit, strong, or even when you are wealthy and powerful even if you are old, but life breaks every one of us - it's just a matter of time, so let's see just how long it is that you hold on to your "unbeliefs." 
    It is not a matter of denying any gods since that would imply that such things exist, something which I see no evidence for.
    You appear to be saying that people need gods as some sort of psychological prop when the become ill, that seems like a very poor excuse for choosing to believe in obvious nonsense.

    Report message12

  • Message 13

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by TooManyPosts (U2440869) on Thursday, 16th June 2011

    In reply to LupinWeasley:

    "Is there a 'Heaven': No...Of course there isn't. When you die you rot in the ground and that's the end."

    Don't you think that you are being just as dogmatic as the person who insists that there is based on no more than faith.

    Report message13

  • Message 14

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by lpilova (U14234193) on Friday, 17th June 2011

    Lupin

    You haven't addressed the fact that I've said you've stated a fact - i.e. no heaven exists - without having any evidence, without having investigated the subject properly.

    i.e. you've not behaved rationally, as a real scientist should.

    Scientists can't make statements without evidence, proof.

    I didn't anywhere say I *believed* in God, or a God.

    I simply think that it is the most likely explanation of all that exists, based on the fact that there are so many and so many even mindbogglingly detailed descriptions of such a God coming from the various scriptures.

    They all (over thousands of years) keep coming up and *quite independently* with the same formula, the same realisation.

    They get an "oh my god" moment when all their previous ideas - mere ideas you see, like yours, without *experience* - are demolished, and they come into contact with this awesome being *inwardly*, which causes many of them even to kneel or bow down or in cases even faint.

    I'm not saying this it *true*, I am just saying what the spiritual literature says, and there is tons of it stretching over thousands of years, literally tons of it.

    So what was this experience these people were having?

    Was it the outcome of deluded or insane minds as Mr Dawkins suggests?

    The gospel, Biblical and religious scriptures would suggest not.

    Mohammed was a brilliant military leader who fought and won wars to establish his society.

    Jesus was a philosopher so unique, he is still discussed by billions thousands of years later.

    Moses was a prince, who led his people to freedom from bondage by the Egyptian dictators of the time.

    Buddha was also a prince, who turned his back on his kingdom, so important did he believe his inner experience of "enlightenment" was.

    These people were brilliant geniuses, like Confucius, whose philosophy still guides much of Chinese society even today.

    So when these people say they experienced God and that He exists, it is not idiots who are speaking, but people who showed themselves influential and brilliant in all kinds of ways.

    Another modern example would be the Maharishi, who even if he were just considered a businessmen, created a vast worldwide organisation in a very short time, that was astounding even by modern business standards.

    What have *you* personally achieved in life in comparison to these beings?

    Have you had millions and billions swear by your every word as these people have, the prophets? Do you think you ever will have that kind of influence?

    And by the way, discussions don't finish on this message board when *you* decide they do.

    If you want this discussion to finish, I'd advise you to not reply, though I won't reply back again anyway, unless there's any point.

    Yes, I can understand how you have contempt for those who appear to blindly believe, but you should try putting yourself in their situation to understand why they do as they do.

    Imagine for example you are a Muslim somewhere in the Middle East, who may be subject any day now to a Western bombing campaign for whatever justification the Western governments think up.

    You are powerless, almost helpless in the face of the Western superpower's military forces.

    You see no justice, and the only possible hope you may have, is if there is a God in heaven, who will give you justice, when clearly men on this planet will not.

    There are millions of poor and suffering people in all kinds of ways in the world who also have no other hope than that a God exists.

    If you personally don't feel you need one, then lucky you, but in the end, you may find the suffering of life will make you reconsider that option.

    It's easy to deny God when you are young, healthy, fit, strong, or even when you are wealthy and powerful even if you are old, but life breaks every one of us - it's just a matter of time, so let's see just how long it is that you hold on to your "unbeliefs."

     
    Hi BBC-account-holder

    You know you're right it's as irrational to say there is no such thing as god or heaven, as it would be to say there are no such things as hobgoblins or hobgoblin land, bang on you're right.

    Kindest of regards lpilova

    Report message14

  • Message 15

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by The Eagle (U1723019) on Saturday, 18th June 2011

    Hi Lupin

    There is a heaven, it can be glimpsed within this life within relationship with God, which may continue after physical death.

    Christians do live fully and completely in this life, and we do think for ourselves.

    Perhaps you are the one coming across as self righteous?

    smiley - peacedove

    The Eagle

    Report message15

  • Message 16

    , in reply to message 15.

    Posted by lpilova (U14234193) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Hi Lupin

    There is a heaven, it can be glimpsed within this life within relationship with God, which may continue after physical death.

    Christians do live fully and completely in this life, and we do think for ourselves.

    Perhaps you are the one coming across as self righteous?

    smiley - peacedove

    The Eagle
     
    Eagles do seem to have their heads in the clouds, at last, I get it.

    Regards lpilova

    Report message16

  • Message 17

    , in reply to message 16.

    Posted by The Eagle (U1723019) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Hi Ipilova

    I hope and pray that you will come to understand why I love God, and to recognise the positive contribution the Christian faith makes to communities and to the world.

    I wish you well wherever the future takes you.

    smiley - peacedove

    The Eagle

    Report message17

  • Message 18

    , in reply to message 17.

    Posted by lpilova (U14234193) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Hi Ipilova

    I hope and pray that you will come to understand why I love God, and to recognise the positive contribution the Christian faith makes to communities and to the world.

    I wish you well wherever the future takes you.

    smiley - peacedove

    The Eagle 
    Eagle

    No good, we have extremely different versions, understandings of the word evidence, with my meaning of the word as I understand it you haven't got a shred;"semantics".

    Pray as much as you like it appears to make you feel better in some way, no need to bother on my part, make better use of the time make a cup of tea, anything else.

    I don't wish to knock religions down I just know they don't deserve a special place, all beliefs should be treated equally including those that consider the usual problems without the mystical little Mr Pie in the Sky attached hovering in the background.

    (Even U N H R legislation requires all religions and other beliefs to have equality).

    Thanks for the thought anyway, I do wish you well in life's lottery, no point praying for you, there's no one in.

    Regards lpilova

    Report message18

Back to top

About this Board

The BBC Religion and ethics message boards are now closed.

They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available.

Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.

We will be introducing a new blog later in the year. Aaqil Ahmed, Commissioning Editor Religion and Head of Religion & Ethics, has a blog with more details.

or register to take part in a discussion.


The message board is currently closed for posting.

Opening times:
No longer applicable

This messageboard is post-moderated.

Find out more about this board's House Rules

Search this Board

BBC © 2014 The BBC is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.

This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.