Ethics and freethought  permalink

Depression - A Disease Of The Self ?

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Messages: 1 - 50 of 164
  • Message 1. 

    Posted by Sean Obren (U14805023) on Wednesday, 25th May 2011

    Last week Robert Sachs left a somewhat hostile reply to Outrider in the "Parris Is Wrong About Suicide" thread

    It's message 77, the last one and can be read in full here:


    news.bbc.co.uk/dna/m...


    Basically he is saying that suicidal people would rediscover meaning and purpose in their lives if only they would make a special effort to reconnect with the needy and less fortunate members of society.

    Does this sound right to you?

    He also calls depression a 'disease of the self'.

    I don't agree with him but even if it were true that 'egocentricity' is a major component of depression why are people in our culture so against suicide and quick to condemn those who make that decision?

    On a legal point, in ancient Rome you had to kill yourself or all your goods were returned to the state and your kids/family were unable to inherit anything from you.... Go figure.

    Suicide is about ownership of life. Why can't we own our life and why do others (including philosophers) go against this ownership?

    Don't we as individulas have a unique perspective on our own lives and aren't we (normally) better-placed than others to make judgments about whether our lives are worth continuing?

    Report message1

  • Message 2

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by dc1965 (U14174796) on Wednesday, 25th May 2011


    Suicide is about ownership of life. Why can't we own our life and why do others (including philosophers) go against this ownership?

    Don't we as individulas have a unique perspective on our own lives and aren't we (normally) better-placed than others to make judgments about whether our lives are worth continuing?

     
    Suicide is a permanent solution to what is quite often a temporary problem.

    There are times when this is not the case, i.e. permanent physical disability but in a lot of suicide cases the reason for ending life is usually a set of circumstances which, at the time, make life seem like it is no longer worth living.

    The key words here are 'at the time'.

    Report message2

  • Message 3

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Major Higgs-Boson (U225196) on Wednesday, 25th May 2011

    He also calls depression a 'disease of the self'. 

    I tried depression when I was a teenager but I couldn't see any future in it.

    I've spent hours of my life listening to friends telling me about their depression.Have you ever noticed, they never ask "and how are you?"?

    Report message3

  • Message 4

    , in reply to message 3.

    Posted by dc1965 (U14174796) on Wednesday, 25th May 2011

    He also calls depression a 'disease of the self'. 

    I tried depression when I was a teenager but I couldn't see any future in it.

    I've spent hours of my life listening to friends telling me about their depression.Have you ever noticed, they never ask "and how are you?"?

     
    I suspect you now have depression brought on by the hours and hours you have spent listening to other people talk about their depression!!!!

    And by the way, how are you Major?

    Report message4

  • Message 5

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by Major Higgs-Boson (U225196) on Wednesday, 25th May 2011

    I suspect you now have depression brought on by the hours and hours you have spent listening to other people talk about their depression!!!! 

    No, they all either cheered up or died.


    And by the way, how are you Major? 

    Have you got any aspirin?

    Report message5

  • Message 6

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Pam (U14275888) on Wednesday, 25th May 2011

    Suicide and depression are also biochemical and life experience based. You cannot find that helping others will be your salvation from suicide if you are in the midst of downturn in your health and life that is overwhelming. Its not a problem of self as much as its a combination of factors that add up to an uncontrollable need to find peace from it. I note how often people find a predjudicial view for mental illness and physical reasons for the need to find a peaceful cease of the problems.

    I don't believe in suicide as a solution that doesn't mean that someone who is in the position of being in that much pain may find it the only path.

    Report message6

  • Message 7

    , in reply to message 3.

    Posted by Sean Obren (U14805023) on Wednesday, 25th May 2011

    Have you ever noticed, they never ask "and how are you?"? 

    That has not been my experience at all.

    Many severely depressed people I've come across are actually very conscientious and kind.

    Report message7

  • Message 8

    , in reply to message 7.

    Posted by Major Higgs-Boson (U225196) on Wednesday, 25th May 2011

    Can we swap?

    Report message8

  • Message 9

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by LornaDoone40 (U14260064) on Wednesday, 25th May 2011

    Basically he is saying that suicidal people would rediscover meaning and purpose in their lives if only they would make a special effort to reconnect with the needy and less fortunate members of society. 

    That is a slightly simplistic summery of what Robert Sachs was saying, and I really do think he has a point to make. As the Major has already pointed out, there comes a point in deppression when you cross a line into utter self-absorbtion and self-pity - this does not negate the genuine pain and distress of the person with the depression, but there is, nevertheless, a line that can be crossed.

    To say - look outside of yourself, of your own problem for a moment, come and take a look here at these children in poverty and these homeless people here, is not a wrong response, but a positive suggestion.

    It's a hardly a new idea or notion. The song 'The Streets of London' comes to mind.

    Suicide is about ownership of life. 

    No, it's ownership of end of life. A life cannot be 'owned' in that sense if it isn't being lived.

    Don't we as individuals have a unique perspective on our own lives..? 

    Yes, but how often is that perspective distorted by things like... depression, for example?

    Report message9

  • Message 10

    , in reply to message 7.

    Posted by LornaDoone40 (U14260064) on Wednesday, 25th May 2011

    Have you ever noticed, they never ask "and how are you?"? 

    That has not been my experience at all.

    Many severely depressed people I've come across are actually very conscientious and kind. 

    I've experienced both - I know plenty of genuinely depressed people who are still very kind, and those who are utterly self-absorbed.

    Report message10

  • Message 11

    , in reply to message 10.

    Posted by Major Higgs-Boson (U225196) on Wednesday, 25th May 2011

    I've experienced both - I know plenty of genuinely depressed people who are still very kind, and those who are utterly self-absorbed. 

    The trouble is that with the depression can come aggression , some of it passive but not necessarily more bearable because of it.Depressed people can drive their friends away.Some people would sit in the dark rather than light a candle.

    I had a bout of it myself once and somebody told me to do the washing up and go for a walk.I thought she was being incredibly patronising and insensitive but when she was gone I washed up and went to the park and I've been a ray of sunshine ever since.

    Report message11

  • Message 12

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by elevenses81 (U6285569) on Thursday, 26th May 2011

    He also calls depression a 'disease of the self'.

     


    There would appear to be adaptive failures that are particular to the human condition. Being aware of our aloneness and forever comparing our success against our fellow men - richer, poorer, more beautiful etc, we find that our sense of self evaporates in the comparrison. We could call this type of depression a failure of social adaptation.

    Modern science has shown though, that many forms of depression have a bio-chemical origin (e.g bi-polar) which has nothing to do with 'self; but has a purely organic origin. There can never be a 'one-fit' therapy to suit all types of depression. When those suffering from a chemical imbalance are made to feel that it their fault, that is an ignorant cruelty that further entrenches the condition.

    Report message12

  • Message 13

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Jack Knave (U14030745) on Sunday, 29th May 2011

    Basically he is saying that suicidal people would rediscover meaning and purpose in their lives if only they would make a special effort to reconnect with the needy and less fortunate members of society.

    Does this sound right to you? 


    No it does not. People who say stupid things like that are talking out of their derriere.


    >>>He also calls depression a 'disease of the self'.<<<

    Well on that score then life is a disease or dis-ease and many would testify to this.

    Report message13

  • Message 14

    , in reply to message 12.

    Posted by Major Higgs-Boson (U225196) on Wednesday, 1st June 2011

    Modern science has shown though, that many forms of depression have a bio-chemical origin (e.g bi-polar) which has nothing to do with 'self; but has a purely organic origin. 

    Same as all emotional states then.

    The best cure for depression is exercise and any activity that limits introspection.Like helping others in fact.

    Report message14

  • Message 15

    , in reply to message 14.

    Posted by Jack Knave (U14030745) on Wednesday, 1st June 2011

    Higgsy

    >>>The best cure for depression is exercise and any activity that limits introspection.Like helping others in fact.<<<

    smiley - laugh smiley - laugh smiley - laugh

    And you know this from personal experience do you ??

    Report message15

  • Message 16

    , in reply to message 15.

    Posted by Major Higgs-Boson (U225196) on Wednesday, 1st June 2011

    Yes.

    So what's funny?

    Report message16

  • Message 17

    , in reply to message 14.

    Posted by elevenses81 (U6285569) on Wednesday, 1st June 2011

    Major,

    Same as all emotional states then 

    If your favourite football team wins, should you take a pill to neutralise your brain's chemical imbalance?

    Report message17

  • Message 18

    , in reply to message 17.

    Posted by Major Higgs-Boson (U225196) on Wednesday, 1st June 2011

    If your favourite football team wins, should you take a pill to neutralise your brain's chemical imbalance? 

    You mean instead of eight pints of lager?

    Report message18

  • Message 19

    , in reply to message 16.

    Posted by Jack Knave (U14030745) on Thursday, 2nd June 2011

    >>>So what's funny?<<<

    Because it is lousy advise. If you try to suppress something like that it just bounces back even harder or if you do manage to achieve this you effectively turn yourself into a zombie or regress yourself evolutionarily. So I thought you were just guessing from a position of someone who had never encountered such things.

    Report message19

  • Message 20

    , in reply to message 18.

    Posted by Jack Knave (U14030745) on Thursday, 2nd June 2011

    Higgsy

    >>>You mean instead of eight pints of lager?<<<

    I hope you mean real ale !!

    Report message20

  • Message 21

    , in reply to message 11.

    Posted by spacelizards (U2490505) on Thursday, 2nd June 2011

    See this is why I never talk to anyone about my depression any more.

    I tried to speak to my mum about it once and she told me 'she didn't want to hear about it'.

    It seems funny to me sometimes, the only way I can talk to someone about this is to pay them to listen.

    Report message21

  • Message 22

    , in reply to message 19.

    Posted by dc1965 (U14174796) on Thursday, 2nd June 2011

    >>>So what's funny?<<<

    Because it is lousy advise. If you try to suppress something like that it just bounces back even harder or if you do manage to achieve this you effectively turn yourself into a zombie or regress yourself evolutionarily. So I thought you were just guessing from a position of someone who had never encountered such things. 

    I would have to partially agree with the Major on this one.

    Exercise is now considered a part of the GPs armoury when dealing with depression. Gym memberships have even been prescribed.

    I'm not saying that it's going to work for everyone and there won't be other forms of treatment required but it certainly does help to lift the mood due to an increase in natural endorphins. Most anti-depressant pills are merely doing this in a pill form so exercise isn't just suppressing the feelings it is actually helping to restore the chemical balance within the brain.

    Report message22

  • Message 23

    , in reply to message 19.

    Posted by Major Higgs-Boson (U225196) on Thursday, 2nd June 2011

    Because it is lousy advise 

    Funny that, because it worked for me.

    If you try to suppress something like that it just bounces back even harder or if you do manage to achieve this you effectively turn yourself into a zombie or regress yourself evolutionarily. So I thought you were just guessing from a position of someone who had never encountered such things. 

    I'd said earier in the thread that I had experienced it myself.


    Report message23

  • Message 24

    , in reply to message 22.

    Posted by Major Higgs-Boson (U225196) on Thursday, 2nd June 2011

    Most anti-depressant pills are merely doing this in a pill form 

    Many have been found to perform no better than placebos which means that a lot of people are unnecessarily being medicated with drugs that can have devastating side effects.

    Report message24

  • Message 25

    , in reply to message 24.

    Posted by dc1965 (U14174796) on Thursday, 2nd June 2011

    Most anti-depressant pills are merely doing this in a pill form 

    Many have been found to perform no better than placebos which means that a lot of people are unnecessarily being medicated with drugs that can have devastating side effects.  
    Fair point.

    What I should have said is that the prescription of anti-depressant pills is an attempt to restore the brain's chemical balance.

    Report message25

  • Message 26

    , in reply to message 25.

    Posted by Major Higgs-Boson (U225196) on Thursday, 2nd June 2011

    What I should have said is that the prescription of anti-depressant pills is an attempt to restore the brain's chemical balance. 

    I think that's the intention but they tend to be a sledgehammer to crack a nut (if you'll pardon the pun)

    Report message26

  • Message 27

    , in reply to message 26.

    Posted by dc1965 (U14174796) on Thursday, 2nd June 2011

    What I should have said is that the prescription of anti-depressant pills is an attempt to restore the brain's chemical balance. 

    I think that's the intention but they tend to be a sledgehammer to crack a nut (if you'll pardon the pun)

     
    The problem I had is that they 'flat-lined' me. There were no major downs but there were no ups either.

    Coupled with some side effects, one of which Mrs. dc1965 was non too chuffed with, I decided quite quickly they weren't for me.

    Getting back into regular exercise certainly was a major factor in my recovery.

    Report message27

  • Message 28

    , in reply to message 27.

    Posted by Major Higgs-Boson (U225196) on Thursday, 2nd June 2011

    The problem I had is that they 'flat-lined' me. There were no major downs but there were no ups either. 

    Same here.I became indifferent to pretty much everything, I now find that there isn't much that a good long walk won't sort out.

    Like I said though, when someone actually gave me this sort of advice I thought they were just being fatuous and patronising.

    Report message28

  • Message 29

    , in reply to message 24.

    Posted by adzcliff (U14007447) on Friday, 3rd June 2011

    Many have been found to perform no better than placebos which means that a lot of people are unnecessarily being medicated with drugs that can have devastating side effects.  

    Interestingly, in the vast majority of cases, it seems that it's these very side-effects that are, in effect, the 'treatment' - albeit a placebo.

    Ta.

    Adzcliff

    Report message29

  • Message 30

    , in reply to message 22.

    Posted by Astro (U5209345) on Friday, 3rd June 2011

    >>>So what's funny?<<<

    Because it is lousy advise. If you try to suppress something like that it just bounces back even harder or if you do manage to achieve this you effectively turn yourself into a zombie or regress yourself evolutionarily. So I thought you were just guessing from a position of someone who had never encountered such things. 

    I would have to partially agree with the Major on this one.

    Exercise is now considered a part of the GPs armoury when dealing with depression. Gym memberships have even been prescribed.

    I'm not saying that it's going to work for everyone and there won't be other forms of treatment required but it certainly does help to lift the mood due to an increase in natural endorphins. Most anti-depressant pills are merely doing this in a pill form so exercise isn't just suppressing the feelings it is actually helping to restore the chemical balance within the brain.
     


    No, it does nothing of the sort. Exercise will not improve mood one iota. I was a fanatical swimmer and walker (even before it became the thing to do) and it never left me on a high feeling. I was glad I did it but no more than other things I did and do in life make me feel happy or give a high.

    I'm pleased you know how anti-depressants work! That's more than the medical profession know - they have no idea how they work and, in a lot of cases, anti-depressants do not work well at all.

    I just love to read all the advice to people suffering from depression of 'go and do something for others if you feel depressed and go and take some exercise'. You are clearly coming from a place of ignorance. I have suffered depression and all I wanted to do was shut myself away and push every living soul as far away from me as possible. If anyone had come out with that claptrap, I would have exploded at them. Resolution of the given problem(s) is the solution - everything else is a band aid.

    Report message30

  • Message 31

    , in reply to message 30.

    Posted by adzcliff (U14007447) on Friday, 3rd June 2011

    Hi Astro

    I'm pleased you know how anti-depressants work! That's more than the medical profession know - they have no idea how they work and, in a lot of cases, anti-depressants do not work well at all. 

    With respect, I think the medical profession does know how 'anti-depressants' work, they just don't know how depression works?

    Adzcliff

    Report message31

  • Message 32

    , in reply to message 30.

    Posted by Major Higgs-Boson (U225196) on Friday, 3rd June 2011

    Exercise will not improve mood one iota 

    So it doesn't work for you but it worked for me and many others I have met.

    Report message32

  • Message 33

    , in reply to message 30.

    Posted by dc1965 (U14174796) on Friday, 3rd June 2011

    >>>So what's funny?<<<

    Because it is lousy advise. If you try to suppress something like that it just bounces back even harder or if you do manage to achieve this you effectively turn yourself into a zombie or regress yourself evolutionarily. So I thought you were just guessing from a position of someone who had never encountered such things. 

    I would have to partially agree with the Major on this one.

    Exercise is now considered a part of the GPs armoury when dealing with depression. Gym memberships have even been prescribed.

    I'm not saying that it's going to work for everyone and there won't be other forms of treatment required but it certainly does help to lift the mood due to an increase in natural endorphins. Most anti-depressant pills are merely doing this in a pill form so exercise isn't just suppressing the feelings it is actually helping to restore the chemical balance within the brain.
     


    No, it does nothing of the sort. Exercise will not improve mood one iota. I was a fanatical swimmer and walker (even before it became the thing to do) and it never left me on a high feeling. I was glad I did it but no more than other things I did and do in life make me feel happy or give a high.

    I'm pleased you know how anti-depressants work! That's more than the medical profession know - they have no idea how they work and, in a lot of cases, anti-depressants do not work well at all.

    I just love to read all the advice to people suffering from depression of 'go and do something for others if you feel depressed and go and take some exercise'. You are clearly coming from a place of ignorance. I have suffered depression and all I wanted to do was shut myself away and push every living soul as far away from me as possible. If anyone had come out with that claptrap, I would have exploded at them. Resolution of the given problem(s) is the solution - everything else is a band aid. 
    The important words in my post which you have obviously chosen to ignore are -

    "I'm not saying that it's going to work for everyone"

    It works for me, it works for the Major, it doesn't work for you. I'm sorry to hear that it doesn't work for you but you cannot then make categorical statements such as "No, it does nothing of the sort. Exercise will not improve mood one iota." as it clearly does in some cases.

    Regarding my knowledge of how anti-depressants work I was merely paraphrasing my GP. Maybe I am crediting the medical profession with too much knowledge and if so I stand corrected.

    I resent the statement that I am coming from a place of ignorance. You have clearly not read my later posts on this subject.

    Report message33

  • Message 34

    , in reply to message 32.

    Posted by adzcliff (U14007447) on Friday, 3rd June 2011

    Here's a 'plain language summary' from a recent (2010) Cochrane review on the issue of exercise for depression:

    "Depression is a common and important illness affecting at least 1 in 5 people during their lifetime. Exercise has been advocated as an adjunct to usual treatment. This review identified all available randomised trials which compared exercise with either no treatment or an established treatment (e.g. talking therapy) for people with a clinical diagnosis of depression. Data from 25 trials were combined. We found exercise did seem to improve the symptoms of depression, but we cannot be sure exactly how effective it is, or the most effective type of exercise. The evidence suggests that exercise probably needs to be continued in the longer-term for benefits on mood to be maintained."

    Any good?

    Adzcliff

    Report message34

  • Message 35

    , in reply to message 23.

    Posted by Jack Knave (U14030745) on Friday, 3rd June 2011

    Higgsy

    >>>Funny that, because it worked for me.<<<

    But giving it out as though it is the definitive answer for all depression is a little naive.


    >>>I'd said earier in the thread that I had experienced it myself.<<<

    I don't always have the time to read all the threads, just look for the replies to me, so I missed that.

    Report message35

  • Message 36

    , in reply to message 26.

    Posted by Jack Knave (U14030745) on Friday, 3rd June 2011

    >>>I think that's the intention but they tend to be a sledgehammer to crack a nut (if you'll pardon the pun)<<<

    smiley - laugh !!

    Report message36

  • Message 37

    , in reply to message 35.

    Posted by Major Higgs-Boson (U225196) on Friday, 3rd June 2011

    But giving it out as though it is the definitive answer for all depression is a little naive. 

    Tell the doctors who prescribe visits to the gym.
    Exercise is recognised as an excellent treatment for depression, if I thought it was the definitive answer for all depression I would have said so.

    Report message37

  • Message 38

    , in reply to message 37.

    Posted by tucuxii (U13714114) on Friday, 3rd June 2011

    Thanks guys - I've been in absolute dispair of late - redundant, facing eviction - and could not see a way out .

    I came across this thread by accident and you may just have saved my life as it made me realize I had to do something about my "temporary situation"

    I woke up this morning and realized there is nothing to stop me just upping sticks and moving anywhere I want and starting again

    Report message38

  • Message 39

    , in reply to message 38.

    Posted by Major Higgs-Boson (U225196) on Friday, 3rd June 2011

    If depression is a normal emotional response to an inescapable predicament then why is it better to drug the sufferer up than to try to do something to resolve the predicament?


    Report message39

  • Message 40

    , in reply to message 37.

    Posted by Jack Knave (U14030745) on Friday, 3rd June 2011

    But giving it out as though it is the definitive answer for all depression is a little naive. 

    Tell the doctors who prescribe visits to the gym.
    Exercise is recognised as an excellent treatment for depression, if I thought it was the definitive answer for all depression I would have said so. 
    My original response to your comment was in reference to the avoidance part of it, to get busy so you don't think about it. I never made any comment about the exercise bit. Someone else misread my post and brought that in, and you have followed on from that. Exercise is good regardless of ones's mental disposition.

    Report message40

  • Message 41

    , in reply to message 40.

    Posted by Major Higgs-Boson (U225196) on Friday, 3rd June 2011

    My original response to your comment was in reference to the avoidance part of it, to get busy so you don't think about it. 

    Which definitely helps, I know this from experience.

    What experience do you speak from?

    Report message41

  • Message 42

    , in reply to message 41.

    Posted by Jack Knave (U14030745) on Saturday, 4th June 2011

    >>>Which definitely helps, I know this from experience.<<<

    Well, your account of it showed that what you had was pretty much nothing which is why it worked.


    >>>What experience do you speak from?<<<

    I have never been one to consistently shirk my psychological / spiritual responsibilities or avoid what life has given me to deal with, with this regard. Though in my younger years a lack of experience may have meant I tried avoidance I have come to understand that this is futile for genuine circumstances. Those, like yourself, who have had a little of a niggling annoyance may find going back to your factory settings as being a simplier and easier process than moving on and developing oneself by engaging with this Life, and thereby, in doing so, progressing no futher in your existence.

    Report message42

  • Message 43

    , in reply to message 42.

    Posted by Major Higgs-Boson (U225196) on Saturday, 4th June 2011

    Well, your account of it showed that what you had was pretty much nothing which is why it worked. 

    How did you deduce that what I had was "prwetty much nothing"?

    Those, like yourself, who have had a little of a niggling annoyance  

    How do you know this? Are you adding telepathy to your CV?

    Report message43

  • Message 44

    , in reply to message 31.

    Posted by Astro (U5209345) on Saturday, 4th June 2011

    Hi adzcliff

    With respect, they don't: www.helpguide.org/me...

    Report message44

  • Message 45

    , in reply to message 32.

    Posted by Astro (U5209345) on Saturday, 4th June 2011

    So it doesn't work for you but it worked for me and many others I have met.  

    It will depend upon the severity of depression that a person feels. If it is mild depression (used to be called feeling deeply unhappy), then yes, a person can 'will' themselves into a better frame of mind. If I could convince people that knitting will help as it will transfer their thought processes onto the knitting rather than themselves, that would also help but it wouldn't be a solution to depression.

    One question: if exercise is so effective, why do we have such long waiting lists for mental health care? Why is so much money spent on manufacturing antidepressants? Why does depression still exist if the answer is so simple? Why aren't swimming pools operating a waiting list to join? Why aren't parks and walkways chocoblock with people walking off 'depression'?

    Report message45

  • Message 46

    , in reply to message 34.

    Posted by Astro (U5209345) on Saturday, 4th June 2011

    Exercise has been advocated as an adjunct to usual treatment.  

    Which some people take to mean as good as - this is not the case. If it works for people, that wonderful. However, it does not work for everyone and for those suffering from severe depression, it is patronising to tell them that a walk will soon shake it off. Bear in mind that 'advocate' only means a suggestion - not a proven fact.

    did seem to improve the symptoms of depression, but we cannot be sure exactly how effective it is,  

    No comment from me needed.

    The evidence suggests that exercise probably  

    Suggests? Seems? Probably? It doesn't sound very cast iron proof does it

    Report message46

  • Message 47

    , in reply to message 33.

    Posted by Astro (U5209345) on Saturday, 4th June 2011

    you cannot then make categorical statements such as "No, it does nothing of the sort. Exercise will not improve mood one iota." as it clearly does in some cases.
     


    Yes I can - because it doesn't. It is the belief that it will that makes it work, not the actual activity itself. As I've said, I could prescribe any number of activities that would work equally as well. In the psych world, they are known as 'distraction techniques' and exercise is just one of them.

    I resent the statement that I am coming from a place of ignorance.  

    And you are perfectly entitled to feel resentment. I'm sure those who are told a run or walk in the park will make them feel better could also feel resentful that the life experiences that have led them to where they are can be treated so lightly as to believe something such as that would be of any help whatsoever.

    You should also bear in mind that to many depressives, they already have low self esteem and lack of belief in themselves; to tell them something will have a positive effect (not necessarily you, I'm addressing this in general) and then doesn't will only reinforce their negative self-assessment.

    Report message47

  • Message 48

    , in reply to message 44.

    Posted by adzcliff (U14007447) on Sunday, 5th June 2011

    Thanks for this Astro.

    This article is a little contradictory, look:

    “However, the truth is that researchers know very little about how antidepressants work.”

    Then:

    “While antidepressant drugs such as Prozac increase serotonin levels in the brain, this doesn’t mean that depression is caused by a serotonin shortage. [...] And while antidepressants raise serotonin levels within hours…”

    This pretty much backs up my point from earlier. Neurochemists have some pretty reliable models of how ‘anti-depressants’ work on neurotransmitters in the brain, but there’s no good science suggesting that depression and dysregulation of certain neurotransmitters are necessarily the same thing. The fact that these psychoactive products are mis-marketed as ‘anti-depressants’ is part of the problem, but let’s not assume that because we’re still very much in the dark about what ‘depression’ is in different people, that brainy neurochemists don’t have a good idea about how these chemical compounds interact with the nervous system. (I.e. Just because penicillin doesn’t treat depression, doesn’t mean we don’t know how penicillin works – regardless of whether some dishonest so-and-so wants to re-brand it an ‘anti-depressant’?)

    I should add that the webpage also recommends acupuncture for depression despite fairly good evidence that it’s no better than placebo:

    Smith CA, Hay PPJ, MacPherson H. Acupuncture for depression. Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2010, Issue 1.

    Cheers for now.

    Adzcliff

    Report message48

  • Message 49

    , in reply to message 46.

    Posted by adzcliff (U14007447) on Sunday, 5th June 2011

    Hi again Astro

    Suggests? Seems? Probably? It doesn't sound very cast iron proof does it 

    I have no particular hook in this debate, but a Cochrane review is one of the best sources for reliable evidence on health related matters. Because they're of such high quality - and even publish when there's insufficient evidence to produce a study - you'll find they use terms like 'suggest', 'seems' and 'probably' entirely responsibly. These studies try to be entirely neutral, and aren't setting out to 'prove' anything, just report the state of play in light of the best evidence - which could go either way or nowhere.

    Ta.

    Adzcliff

    Report message49

  • Message 50

    , in reply to message 2.

    Posted by Jack-in-the-Green (U14769647) on Sunday, 5th June 2011


    Suicide is a permanent solution to what is quite often a temporary problem.  

    What if the problem is permanent?

    Sometimes suicide is the most rational response to a bad situation. In many other cultures it was regarded as noble in certain circumstances. Seneca, the great Roman Stoic-Philosopher, killed himself rather than be executed by Nero. He is regarded as a humanist saint.

    Report message50

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