Ethics and freethought  permalink

Parris Is Wrong About Suicide

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Messages: 1 - 50 of 84
  • Message 1. 

    Posted by Peter_70 (U14573698) on Wednesday, 16th February 2011

    London Times columnist Matthew Parris has written the following:

    "When I die, and if I have to arrange it myself, I will consult nobody, and do it unassisted if I can. I entertain not a flicker of moral or practical doubt on the subject, and never have. Speaking only for myself -— in such matters one should never judge for others —- if Nature does not do the job in a timely manner I shall consider it a duty to take matters into my own hands.

    I can’t tell you how simple I find these arguments: so simple that I’ve hardly bothered to write about the issue. Suicide is the greatest of human freedoms, underwriting all the others, for it gives us the possibility of defying every thing and every one there is. The possibility of suicide is what makes life voluntary and each new day an act of will. No wonder the faith community gnash their teeth at suicide. God Himself, if He existed, would gnash His teeth at suicide: the supreme act of defiance, the final rasberry. The knowledge that I’m here by choice, that every breath I take I take by choice, injects into my soul a transcendent joy"

    [......]

    "Is suicide not the greatest of all tokens of the primacy of the human will ? How shall a man ever demonstrate with more finality that he is the captain of his soul, the master of his ship, than by taking it by his own choice on to the rocks ? Self-inflicted death is the ultimate defiance, the one freedom in your life and mine which nothing and nobody — not even God — can take away.... I have never contemplated suicide and hope I never shall. But to know that I can -— to know that tomorrow I too could make that splendid, terrible two-fingered gesture to creation itself is more than life-enhancing: it is sublime"

    *********

    First of all, suicide is ANYTHING BUT an act of will (or "defiance"); rather it's the opposite: a failure -- collapse -- of will, A BREAKDOWN, not a breakthrough that shouldn't be confused, or conflated, with euthanasia.

    (Note: I am a fan of his writing and read him weekly but in the above he couldn't be more wrong.... His tone is sophomoric and he sounds like an adolescent or (worse) a Romantic spouting gibberish.

    Doesn't it embarrass you to read something so misguided from an adult in a leading newspaper?



    Report message1

  • Message 2

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Shaker2011 (U14275953) on Wednesday, 16th February 2011

    Doesn't it embarrass you to read something so misguided from an adult in a leading newspaper? 

    No, since he was absolutely correct in every respect. I couldn't agree with him any more than I already do (on a lot of things - his views on religion, for starters).

    Your post however really *was* embarrassing.

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  • Message 3

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by mmartini51 (U13705077) on Wednesday, 16th February 2011

    I agree Peter. I see where he is coming from intellectually, but when he ends up with this
    Suicide is the greatest of human freedoms,  

    you know he's gone wrong. Suicide is an act of desparation by the suffering, surely? It's nothing t do with blowing a raspberry at the almighty - that trivilaises it beyond belief.

    Report message3

  • Message 4

    , in reply to message 3.

    Posted by mmartini51 (U13705077) on Wednesday, 16th February 2011

    One of the most important principles to me as an theist is that 'this is all there is' - life is precious and we should make the most of it. To make out that we should, if we so wished, squander it -as an act of defiance, no less!- seems to me childish in the extreme. Defiant against what, whom?

    Report message4

  • Message 5

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by mmartini51 (U13705077) on Wednesday, 16th February 2011

    One of the most important principles to me as an theist 
    smiley - doh that should read "atheist"...

    Report message5

  • Message 6

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Ross Quinn (U14407020) on Wednesday, 16th February 2011

    Not misguided it is his own opinion.

    If that is how he feels about taking his own life it is his choice.

    You saying it is not an act of will is silly as if he does it knowingly he is willing, maybe it is not an act of sound consciousness but in this case Matthew seems of sound mind and willing.

    Report message6

  • Message 7

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Franz_Joseph3 (U13941848) on Wednesday, 16th February 2011

    Sorry, I agree with him!

    Report message7

  • Message 8

    , in reply to message 3.

    Posted by Shaker2011 (U14275953) on Wednesday, 16th February 2011

    I see where he is coming from intellectually, but when he ends up with this
    "Suicide is the greatest of human freedoms, "

    you know he's gone wrong. Suicide is an act of desparation by the suffering, surely? 


    Sometimes, not necessarily. He's still quite right that suicide is by definition an act of will and an expression of freedom.

    It's nothing t do with blowing a raspberry at the almighty - that trivilaises it beyond belief. 

    Parris is an atheist so he's referring here to other people who do believe in a God.

    Report message8

  • Message 9

    , in reply to message 8.

    Posted by idontbelieveit (U14276798) on Wednesday, 16th February 2011

    Suicide is the greatest of human freedoms -
    Drivel.It's invariably a desperate attempt to curtail pain.
    Alcohol,drugs and mental illness are indicators.
    If the person were free to choose they would choose to not be suicidal.
    Like I said,drivel.

    Report message9

  • Message 10

    , in reply to message 9.

    Posted by Shaker2011 (U14275953) on Wednesday, 16th February 2011

    drivel. 

    Sums up your post to a T.

    Report message10

  • Message 11

    , in reply to message 2.

    Posted by Peter_70 (U14573698) on Wednesday, 16th February 2011

    Doesn't it embarrass you to read something so misguided from an adult in a leading newspaper? 

    No, since he was absolutely correct in every respect. I couldn't agree with him any more than I already do (on a lot of things - his views on religion, for starters).

    Your post however really *was* embarrassing. 


    ********

    Shaker,

    Does it really make sense to claim that one "commits suicide"?

    "Suicide" is the result of an affliction, an involuntary reflex (or response) triggered by trauma/conditioning, psychopathology, extreme intoxication, etc., rather than agency.

    It's a PATHOLOGICAL event, not a voluntary act.

    I think "suicide" is a BOMB planted within every neocortex that has many triggers which are sensitive to different degrees in different people.

    Report message11

  • Message 12

    , in reply to message 2.

    Posted by BashfulAnthony (U10740638) on Wednesday, 16th February 2011


    he was absolutely correct in every respect. 

    Except how to spell "raspberry."

    smiley - biggrin

    Report message12

  • Message 13

    , in reply to message 11.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 14

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by Jack-in-the-Green (U14769647) on Wednesday, 16th February 2011


    One of the most important principles to me as an theist is that 'this is all there is' - life is precious and we should make the most of it. To make out that we should, if we so wished, squander it -as an act of defiance, no less!- seems to me childish in the extreme. Defiant against what, whom? 

    Then I suspect you have never been truly tried in life.

    Report message14

  • Message 15

    , in reply to message 12.

    Posted by Shaker2011 (U14275953) on Wednesday, 16th February 2011

    he was absolutely correct in every respect. 

    Except how to spell "raspberry." 

    It's correct in the original article, as you can see for yourself here:

    Suicide is the greatest of human freedoms, underwriting all the others, for it gives us the possibility of defying every thing and every one there is. The possibility of suicide is what makes life voluntary and each new day an act of will. No wonder the faith community gnash their teeth at suicide. God Himself, if He existed, would gnash His teeth at suicide: the supreme act of defiance, the final raspberry. 

    www.timesonline.co.u...

    Bad luck Bashers smiley - winkeye

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  • Message 16

    , in reply to message 13.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 17

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by sciolist (U7547242) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    You start a business, build it up. It becomes successful, money pours in. You could sell for a brilliant price, but you don't.

    But you don't have the energy you once had. Your sales pitches don't go as well as they used to, your employees get away with too much. Every thing you do lacks that extra bit of oomph. You hope it won't matter, you've already done the hard work haven't you, you built a brilliant business, you should be able to coast a bit now.

    But it does matter. The demands don't get any smaller, if anything they get worse. You still don't sell. You lose your grip.

    In the end, by the time the debts are paid out of the estate, there's less than when you started. So how successful were you?

    You have to know when to quit. At least, you have to know when it's pointless hanging on because it's not going to get any better. And if you want your contribution to the world to mean anything, it's no use taking it back.

    Exit strategy is an essential part of achieving one's aims and objectives. Nothing desperate about it.

    Report message17

  • Message 18

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by mmartini51 (U13705077) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    "Is suicide not the greatest of all tokens of the primacy of the human will ? How shall a man ever demonstrate with more finality that he is the captain of his soul, the master of his ship, than by taking it by his own choice on to the rocks ? Self-inflicted death is the ultimate defiance, the one freedom in your life and mine which nothing and nobody — not even God — can take away.... I have never contemplated suicide and hope I never shall. But to know that I can -— to know that tomorrow I too could make that splendid, terrible two-fingered gesture to creation itself is more than life-enhancing: it is sublime"  

    D'you know who this purple prose reminds me of? That hoary old hand clasping theist Malcolm Muggeridge.

    Report message18

  • Message 19

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by Peter_70 (U14573698) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    Martini,

    One of the most important principles to me as an theist is that 'this is all there is' - life is precious and we should make the most of it. To make out that we should, if we so wished, squander it -as an act of defiance, no less!- seems to me childish in the extreme.

    Defiant against what, whom? 


    *********

    Parris and those who agree with him believe that the person who commits suicide is, IN SOME SENSE, defying...

    Life itself..

    Or the lack of it...

    the misery of it..

    the pain of it..

    Strange yes, but that is how they see it.

    Report message19

  • Message 20

    , in reply to message 2.

    Posted by Peter_70 (U14573698) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    Shaker,

    Ok, let's say that Parris is right.

    Why is 'defiance' taken to be a virtue here?

    If someone comes to the point where they feel that it is the best thing to take their own life, this is just a SAD fact.... Period.

    Also, note the language he uses:

    'primacy of the human will',

    'ultimate defiance',

    'splendid, terrible two-fingered gesture',

    This is of a piece with a culture of combative self-assertion.

    Suicide is a terrible business and I would not want to judge any individual case, but shouldn't one encourage attention to the value of a less assertive mode of thinking?


    Report message20

  • Message 21

    , in reply to message 19.

    Posted by Shaker2011 (U14275953) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    Parris and those who agree with him believe that the person who commits suicide is, IN SOME SENSE, defying...

    Life itself..

    Or the lack of it...  


    Talking about "SOME SENSE," I wish your posts would exhibit some. How does committing suicide (i.e. killing oneself) defy "the lack of life"?

    I don't think you've thought this one through at all smiley - laugh

    Report message21

  • Message 22

    , in reply to message 20.

    Posted by Shaker2011 (U14275953) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    <quote>Ok, let's say that Parris is right.</quote>

    Yes, let's say just that.

    <quote>Why is 'defiance' taken to be a virtue here?</quote

    Why wouldn't it be?

    <quote>If someone comes to the point where they feel that it is the best thing to take their own life, this is just a SAD fact.... Period.</quote>

    Not always a fact - full stop (not "period"). That depends on the context - the reasons why somebody decides to commit suicide.

    <quote>Also, note the language he uses:

    'primacy of the human will',

    'ultimate defiance',

    'splendid, terrible two-fingered gesture',

    This is of a piece with a culture of combative self-assertion.</quote>

    Hear hear smiley - ok

    <quote>Suicide is a terrible business</quote>

    Is it?

    <quote>and I would not want to judge any individual case, but shouldn't one encourage attention to the value of a less assertive mode of thinking?</quote>

    No, not really. Only if you think assertiveness is a bad thing, which I don't. Why you do I have no idea.

    Report message22

  • Message 23

    , in reply to message 14.

    Posted by mmartini51 (U13705077) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    Then I suspect you have never been truly tried in life. 
    You suspect wrong. Not that it's any of your business.

    Report message23

  • Message 24

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by josy (U14065324) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    Actually, I agree with his sentiments completely!

    While I respect what others & your view, please do the same for those who are not in tune with your thoughts.

    In this day & age, it is extremely difficult to understand how on earth we are supposed to rejoice at our aging beyond the phase when you are actually in control of your body - if I am lucky to still retain my physical abilities, I do not see any reason to chose death, but the moment I have to rely on someone else to clean my behind, it is curtains for me - I simply cannot cope with the thought of someone else doing intimate chores like this - as a child, my parents would have done this for me, & I would have had no choice.

    However, as an adult, there is nothing more degrading for me than to have some stranger undertake the most basic of chores - I shudder at the thought of losing such dignity.

    The lord in his wisdom or folly, cannot expect me to carry on regardless, in the face of such adversity!

    As for society, we should allow adults in their right minds to chose the manner of how they exit this stage - we have pretty little choice or control over most things, in this, I insist on deciding to go when quality of life has disappeared.

    Knowing I can make this decision makes me a happy bunny.

    Report message24

  • Message 25

    , in reply to message 24.

    Posted by Outrider (U14729772) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    I'm not sure that I agree with Parris' sentiments, precisely. I don't think suicide, or voluntary death, if you prefer, should automatically be viewed as some sort of horror or failing, though -

    The idea that life is of intrinsic value is taught to many of us, but I've never seen any basis for it that wasn't, ultimately, recourse to a God I don't believe in.

    My life is mine to guide, and when it is no longer fit for purpose it is time to end it, with quiet dignity and sufficient solemnity for the moment. It is not a 'defiant' act - what is there to defy?

    It is an acceptance that all things have their time, and to stay on beyond that time is to taint what has been and what will follow, to place unnecessary burdens on those waiting to die and those waiting for you to die.

    In the most drastic instances there are people suffering incredible pain, humility and degradation because of debilitating illnesses, but who are we to tell someone else that their life must continue despite their failure to derive anything worthwhile from it?

    Suicide should be a right, but it shouldn't be seen as an act of rebellion or defiance - that's for suicide bombers.

    O.

    Report message25

  • Message 26

    , in reply to message 24.

    Posted by mmartini51 (U13705077) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    As for society, we should allow adults in their right minds to chose the manner of how they exit this stage - we have pretty little choice or control over most things, in this, I insist on deciding to go when quality of life has disappeared. 

    Don't disagree with any of that Josy. Dignity and choice and all that. I certainly don't think of life as a precious gift from God or anything like that, and I agree with his assertion that the state should have no say in the manner of your exit, nor prevent you from choosing when to go etc.

    It's just that to characterise suicide as something noble and defiant, when in the vast majority of cases it has nothing to do with nobility, and everything to do with wanting liberation from mental or physical pain, is laughable. It really is adolescent. I had a friend who chose this path, and I KNOW he wasn't thinking how sublime it was to be so defiant. He wanted to stop the pain, he threw himself off a motorway bridge.

    Report message26

  • Message 27

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by jmk9 (U14768383) on Thursday, 17th February 2011


    Interesting points to contemplate on. I would say that if we interpret Parris's comments as directed to having the option of committing suicide, rather than the act of committing suicide per se, then they may seem more sensible. Admitting the freedom to suicide and constantly rejecting shows that life is supported by the will to life; an opposing view would be to assert that one lives only because she is obliged to, for some unexplained reason. Of course, according to that view, the act of suicide shows that the desire for living has been extinguished...

    ...I thought that behind every defensible concept of beauty one can find "a Romantic spouting gibberish" provided she looks hard enough....

    Report message27

  • Message 28

    , in reply to message 25.

    Posted by Shaker2011 (U14275953) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    My life is mine to guide, and when it is no longer fit for purpose it is time to end it, with quiet dignity and sufficient solemnity for the moment. 

    Hear hear - quite right.

    It is not a 'defiant' act - what is there to defy? 

    How about the motley crew of brain donors who think that they have a bounden duty - usually a God-given right as they see it - to interfere in the choices of others?

    Report message28

  • Message 29

    , in reply to message 26.

    Posted by josy (U14065324) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    I suppose I should have clarified the views I totally agree on & those that I may have some reservations about.

    I do not suppose that I would be giving the 2 fingered salute but I imagine that depended on my actual condition.

    Having nursed people who were terminal, I have no wish to undergo the same painfilled path.

    If only people did not have such hard & fast rules regarding life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness, we would all benefit from it, but individuals are as different as their genes determine them, their social environment is equally important, & I would never contemplate time in an old people's home - the quality of care you receive is absolutely dismal, & becoming increasingly so as the RCN is now moving to a state where all nurses are expected to have degrees - do you expect one of them to carry a bedpan to you & assist you with your care? These nurses are interested in managing (& while there is always some room for managers) the most basic care these days is given by health care assistants whose basic training leaves much to be desired.

    Compassion is lacking within the caring profession & no degree or training is required, you either have it or not, & if not, you should not be entering into a profession which requires not just doing your duty, but going that extra mile.

    Report message29

  • Message 30

    , in reply to message 11.

    Posted by Himitsu Utsukushii (U14536700) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    Message 11 Posted by Peter_70 Suicide" is the result of an affliction, an involuntary reflex (or response) triggered by trauma/conditioning, psychopathology, extreme intoxication, etc., rather than agency.

    It's a PATHOLOGICAL event, not a voluntary act.

    I think "suicide" is a BOMB planted within every neocortex that has many triggers which are sensitive to different degrees in different people. 

    Well put Peter.

    Suicide is a sick evil that hides its true malevolent nature and fools the perpetrator from the much more devastating after affects, not just on their friends and relatives, but their own soul.

    How many of you the pro-self murder posters have watched people kill themselves? Do you even know how sad and desperate it is?

    Report message30

  • Message 31

    , in reply to message 24.

    Posted by sciolist (U7547242) on Thursday, 17th February 2011


    the moment I have to rely on someone else to clean my behind, it is curtains for me - I simply cannot cope with the thought of someone else doing intimate chores like this
     

    No problem. Just go to an NHS hospital, and they won't.

    Report message31

  • Message 32

    , in reply to message 31.

    Posted by BashfulAnthony (U10740638) on Thursday, 17th February 2011


    No problem. Just go to an NHS hospital, and they won't. 

    That is a gross insult to the thousands of dedicated nurses who work to help others all their working lives. You should be ashamed of such low-level "humour." made at the expense of people who contribute far more than you could ever do.

    Report message32

  • Message 33

    , in reply to message 30.

    Posted by Outrider (U14729772) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    Himitsu

    I have known people who committed suicide. One who did it out of an inability to deal with a personal trauma, one who did it to avoid a long, painful, slow death.

    The first was a tragedy, and if I had had the wisdom or the insight to have seen it coming I'd like to think I might have been able to stop it.

    The second was a poignant but uplifting understanding that someone had just avoided a terrible fate, had taken their destiny in their own hands and saved themselves and their loved ones a long, painful experience.

    I don't believe in your God. If he is real, and he judges people harshly on those circumstances, he doesn't deserve the worship.

    If you advocate people suffering long, painful, slow, debilitating, undignified deaths then you don't deserve to be listened to.

    If you advocate the idea that young, damaged, traumatised people deserve to be eternally punished for an overreaction at the end of a tortuous, underpriveleged, abused existence, you don't deserve to be listened.

    If you have a point about how legalising suicided might lead to a culture of picturing death as an easy way out, or giving selfish relatives leverage to encourage elderly relatives to bump themselves off, then I'll listen. If you can't find any humanity, why are you here trying to deal with humans.

    O.

    Report message33

  • Message 34

    , in reply to message 30.

    Posted by sciolist (U7547242) on Thursday, 17th February 2011


    Do you even know how sad and desperate it is?
     

    But the cause of that is vanity. We're vain enough to think our lives are worth living, even when we can't think of any reason why. If it's traumatic to face the fact that our continued existence isn't a good idea, it's because we're mentally unprepared. We know that the nursing homes and geriatric wards are full of people whose lives we really don't want to think about, but we put them out of mind and think it won't happen to us.

    But on an overcrowded planet, we should be prepared to justify our existence.

    Report message34

  • Message 35

    , in reply to message 32.

    Posted by Major Higgs-Boson (U225196) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    That is a gross insult to the thousands of dedicated nurses who work to help others all their working lives. You should be ashamed of such low-level "humour." made at the expense of people who contribute far more than you could ever do. 

    I know where you're coming from Bash but there is some truth in what was said here.Having spent several weeks in hospital a few years ago I can assure you that patients are regularly left in their own filth.Have you read about the recent report about endemic agism in our NHS and patients actually starving to death? It's a discrace as the thousands of dedicated nurses will agree.

    Report message35

  • Message 36

    , in reply to message 35.

    Posted by BashfulAnthony (U10740638) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    Major,
    M35,

    I, too, have experience of a family member being in hospital, my mother, and in long-term. She received exemplary care, despite her incontinence.

    Yes, there are bad apples, but to make a sick (no pun intended!) joke that is dismissive of the entire Service, is in the very poorest taste.

    Report message36

  • Message 37

    , in reply to message 36.

    Posted by Major Higgs-Boson (U225196) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    Yes, there are bad apples, but to make a sick (no pun intended!) joke that is dismissive of the entire Service, is in the very poorest taste. 

    I didn't take it that way but then my experience was different from yours.I think the NHS is one of the best things about this country, it saved my dad's life twice, he has nothing but praise for it but then he was in a different hospital.The one I was in, supposedly one of the best in London, was horrific and I say that despite the fact that I wouldn't be here today without it.Fortunately for me I have a wife who was able to come in every evening to make sure I was clean and had been fed but I was the youngest on my ward by a good forty years.There was a man in his nineties in the bed next to mine who was so dosed up on morphine he hadn't noticed the gaping bed sores on his legs, trouble is the staff hadn't noticed them either.

    I could go on but thinking about it all turns my stomach.I'm left with something of a dilemma about the NHS, I genuinely love it but am saddened by what has become of it.

    Report message37

  • Message 38

    , in reply to message 36.

    Posted by sciolist (U7547242) on Thursday, 17th February 2011


    Yes, there are bad apples, but to make a sick (no pun intended!) joke that is dismissive of the entire Service, is in the very poorest taste.
     

    Make your mind up. If it was a joke, which of course it was, then it wasn't supposed to be factual. Jokes aren't.

    As for taste, well, the subject had already gone into areas generally avoided at Buckingham Palace garden parties. Death is a difficult subject to discuss. Black humour can help.



    Report message38

  • Message 39

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by josy (U14065324) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    I was married to someone who had major issues with living.

    He had been adopted at birth. His adopted parents who were business people, employed nannies to look after both him & his younger adopted brother.

    When he reached the ripe old age of 4+, his adopted mother informed him that he was adopted - this same year, both his brother & himself were sent off to boarding school hundreds of miles away. Some of the things that allegedly took place at that boarding school still makes me shudder.

    During the school holidays, the boys were looked after by carers other than their adopted parents.

    At age 17 both the brothers ended up conscripted to the army - their experience of this institution was both horrendous & spine chilling! The South African Army in those days regularly expected their soldiers (all white) to both capture & torture people from the black population who were off course opposed to apartheid. The description of some of what took place, still makes me want to gag!

    In their 20's both brothers were called up again to serve their country. During this period, younger brother was shot & seriously injured. Older brother, wanting to leave the army too, decided to hold a gun to CO head - he was dishonourably discharged from the army but not before he was held in a secure institution within army headquarters for over 6 months - he was given any numbers of psycho tropic drugs which may or may not have affected him mentally & emotionally. I believe he was severely mentally affected by all of these events.

    Cue meeting up with me, marrying me etc. When he was married to me, initially he seemed quite a loving person, & if not entirely stable, seemed to respond quite positively. Within a year he displayed quite bizarre behaviour! His relationship with drugs & alcohol were not healthy, & his relationship with me was no longer viable.

    He died 10 years ago in his forties - not sure what the coroner had decided but do you not think that a life as miserable as his was, did not serve him well. Would you condemn him if he had committed suicide?

    How many other men, probably some women too, have been so badly affected by their time in the army & how many of these men, having served their country are now serving time at HMP?

    As a society we try to live peacefully with each other, & yet we have certain sections of the population who are trained to kill - do you not believe this is a destructive thing to do to anybody?

    Report message39

  • Message 40

    , in reply to message 10.

    Posted by idontbelieveit (U14276798) on Thursday, 17th February 2011

    Sums up your post to a T.-
    Everything I said in my post is true.
    Your post contains nothing.

    Report message40

  • Message 41

    , in reply to message 30.

    Posted by Peter_70 (U14573698) on Friday, 18th February 2011

    <quote postid='106481641'>Message 11 Posted by Peter_70<quote>
    Suicide is a sick evil that hides its true malevolent nature and fools the perpetrator from the much more devastating after affects, not just on their friends and relatives, but their own soul.

    How many of you the pro-self murder posters have watched people kill themselves? Do you even know how sad and desperate it is?
    </quote>

    *******************

    Himitsu,

    You have completely misconstrued my comment.

    When I wrote that "Suicide is a pathological event"... I was also implying that a person is no more responsible, in a strong moral sense, for killing oneself than one is for having a heart attack. I believe that the suicidal act it is EXEMPT from all 'oughts'.

    Just as it makes no sense to say "one ought not be female" or "one ought not to be bipolar", it makes as little sense to say "one ought not to be suicidal".

    Can one be suicidal and yet consistently say "one ought not kill oneself"?

    Sure... And cancer patients can consistently tell themselves "one ought not to succumb to cancer" too. In either case, however, such "oughts" are rhetorical rather than moral (i.e. normative)

    IF there is a moral aspect to suicide then it is probably along these lines: how the survivors (or ancillary victims) of an accomplished suicide respond and what meaning they assign to the event to inform (even enrich) their own lives.

    Report message41

  • Message 42

    , in reply to message 28.

    Posted by Peter_70 (U14573698) on Friday, 18th February 2011

    Shaker,

    Let's say a person is driven to suicide by that severe and under-recognized mental illness known as Body Dysmorphic Disorder.

    Do you see anything regrettable about this?

    Report message42

  • Message 43

    , in reply to message 41.

    Posted by Himitsu Utsukushii (U14536700) on Friday, 18th February 2011

    Message 41 Posted by Peter_70 When I wrote that "Suicide is a pathological event"... I was also implying that a person is no more responsible, in a strong moral sense, for killing oneself than one is for having a heart attack. I believe that the suicidal act it is EXEMPT from all 'oughts'. 
    I have to strongly disagree with that. Depression and grief are not excusing factors, any more than they are for murder, rape or bank robbery. Suicide may be a terrible corner that many see themselves in, but that is only due to lack of objective insight and their emotional inability to see things can get better.

    One example was yesterday in fact, with a Chinese woman jumping off a tower block to her death and even merrily waving good bye before she went. It even went on the main Chinese news as a clip, “Girl jumps from highrise building in China - Warning: Graphic” but it’s just one more case of a pathetic tragic waste of a redeemable good life. She needed counselling and help, not a push as you seem to be suggesting.

    Just as it makes no sense to say "one ought not be female" or "one ought not to be bipolar", it makes as little sense to say "one ought not to be suicidal". 
    There is a massive difference between being depressed or suicidal and actually going through with it.

    Can one be suicidal and yet consistently say "one ought not kill oneself"? 
    Yes, and they can get help to realise they are being brainwashed by their emotions or chemical imbalance to see things as hopeless. Suicide is never the answer, it’s a sick evil and it’s “easy way out” propaganda is a dangerous wicked illusion.

    Sure... And cancer patients can consistently tell themselves "one ought not to succumb to cancer" too.  
    So you go around telling new cancer victims, “give up, stop your mediation, let it kill you, be weak, don’t fight, there is no hope, you’re a loser anyway. . .”?

    IF there is a moral aspect to suicide then it is probably along these lines: how the survivors (or ancillary victims) of an accomplished suicide respond and what meaning they assign to the event to inform (even enrich) their own lives. 
    So stuff the mentally unbalanced person who needs the most help and just focus on the relatives once they have done the evil deed? Sorry, but I see that as a terrible outlook.

    It reminds me of that recent horrific on-line suicide, when a young man, Marcus Jannes, 21, commits suicide live on-line when he suffered mild emotional problems then went on some suicide forum, and then was provoked and pressured into killing himself live on-line. He even said before he hanged himself, that he was feeling better, so had to hurry up or he would change his mind!

    There are thousands like him, especially emotionally inexperienced teenagers, who need snatching from the fire of their emotional state and helping, not being told as you are, that they have no choice and destiny is calling them to hell.

    Report message43

  • Message 44

    , in reply to message 43.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 45

    , in reply to message 44.

    Posted by BashfulAnthony (U10740638) on Friday, 18th February 2011


    <quote>What a tit.<quote>

    That's what attracts me to these Boards - the high standard of debate!

    Report message45

  • Message 46

    , in reply to message 45.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 47

    , in reply to message 46.

    Posted by BashfulAnthony (U10740638) on Friday, 18th February 2011



    And there was me thinking it was because the day centre was shut 


    Well, I'm sure you would meet a nicer class of person there! smiley - winkeye

    Report message47

  • Message 48

    , in reply to message 47.

    Posted by Shaker2011 (U14275953) on Friday, 18th February 2011

    I don't know, but thanks for keeping my removed messages visible as you've quoted them both. Appreciate it smiley - winkeye

    Report message48

  • Message 49

    , in reply to message 48.

    Posted by BashfulAnthony (U10740638) on Friday, 18th February 2011


    I don't know, but thanks for keeping my removed messages visible as you've quoted them both. Appreciate it 

    No problem. In fact, it is a privilege to ensure your nasty posts are left for all to see. smiley - ok

    Report message49

  • Message 50

    , in reply to message 49.

    Posted by Shaker2011 (U14275953) on Friday, 18th February 2011

    Nasty posts for nasty people, I say. Seems fair.

    Report message50

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