Muslim topic  permalink

The last word

This discussion has been closed.

Messages: 1 - 44 of 44
  • Message 1. 

    Posted by AlDajjal (U14195232) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    The quran cannot be the words of God, for a number of reasons. One of which it is filled with fiction stories from the bible. It also contains two references which are fiction stories about Jesus childhood that are not even in the bible , but in a book of early fables.

    See the following.

    The story in the quran concerning Jesus childhood, about an incident where he makes a clay bird and brings it to life is not a part of the Christian bible, and the original texts are considered apocryphal. They are regarded by Christian scholars as having been written in around 150AD, as propaganda by the early Christians, attempting to fill in the missing years of Jesus life.

    The following are two verses in the quran that contain the references.
    From the Yusuf Ali translation.

    003.049 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in
    your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

    005.110 Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold ! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As can be seen the quran speaks of only one bird, and says Jesus breathed life into it. But the only historical text that contains such a story speaks of 12 birds, and they were brought to life by Jesus commanding them to "Go". Therefore the quran does not even get the facts of the original fictional document correct. Added to this the New Testament states that Jesus did his first miracle at a time he was around thirty years old. (John 2.11)

    Here is the relevant text, translated from Greek and written in, The Apocryphal New Testament, by M.R.James, published by Oxford:Clarendon press, 1924.
    The stories of Thomas the Israelite, (not St Thomas of the bible) the philosopher, concerning the works of the childhood of the Lord.

    1. I, Thomas the Israelite, tell you, and all the brethren that are Gentile, the works of the childhood of our Lord Jesus Christ and his mighty deeds, and all that he did when he was born in our land.
    2.1 This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the water that flowed there into pools, and made them clean, and commanded them by his word alone.
    2.2 Having made soft clay, he fashioned twelve sparrows. It was the Sabbath when he did these things. And there were also many other little children playing with him.
    2.3. A certain Jew when he saw what Jesus did, playing upon the Sabbath day, departed and told his father Joseph: your child is at the brook, and he has taken clay and fashioned twelve little birds, and has polluted the Sabbath day.
    2.4. Joseph came to the place and saw: and cried out to him, saying: Why do you do these things on the Sabbath, which it is not lawful to do? But Jesus clapped his hands together and cried out to the sparrows and said to them: Go! and the sparrows took their flight and went away chirping.
    2.5 when the Jews saw it they were amazed, and departed and told their chief men that which they had seen Jesus do.

    There is a reference to this story, and the flaws in it in the book.
    The original sources of the quran. by William St Clair Tisdall.
    This book is in the public domain and can be found on the Internet.
    __________________

    Report message1

  • Message 2

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by AlDajjal (U14195232) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    The Sun and Moon in the quran

    Sura 21.33 And he it is who created the night and the day, and the Sun and the Moon. They float, each in an orbit.

    sura 36.38 And the Sun runs on unto a resting place for him, That is the measuring of the mighty and wise.
    sura 36.39 And for the Moon. We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shriveled leaf
    Sura 36.40 It is not for the Sun to overtake the Moon,nor does the night outstrip the day. They float, each in an orbit.

    The quran is clearly stating that the Sun has an orbit and the only realistic meaning of these verses is that Muhammed believed the Sun orbits the earth. Those that claim this shows incredible insight by Muhammed who realized the Sun had an orbit in the galaxy are talking rubbish. The quran shows clearly the limits of Muhammeds knowledge.
    For one thing the Sun and Moon meet at every eclipse, for another there is often a visible Moon during the day, so day and night are not so separate as the quran suggests. The verse about the Moon shriveling shows no knowledge of the fact the light of the Sun is illuminating it from a different angle.
    The Sun also does not run to a resting place, not unless you believe Greek mythology. Besides the quran goes on to say.

    sura 25.61 Blessed be he who has placed in the heaven mansions of stars, and has placed therin a great lamp and a moon giving light.

    sura 71.16 And has made the Moon a light therein, and made the Sun a lamp.

    These verses show Muhammed calls the Moon a light, which makes clear he did not know it was reflecting the Suns light. He clearly regards the Sun and Moon as separate sources of light, one for the day and the other for night.

    Sura 81.1 When the Sun is overthrown.
    sura 81.2 And when the Stars fall.

    The Stars will never fall as they are outside our gravity. In fact the Universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. But Muhammed thinks the Stars are just lamps to throw at devils, not distant Suns. as proved below.

    Sura 67.5 And verily we have beautified the worlds heaven with lamps. And we have made them missiles for devils.
    __________________

    Report message2

  • Message 3

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Jack-in-the-Green (U14769647) on Sunday, 26th June 2011


    The quran cannot be the words of God, for a number of reasons.  

    The main one being that there isn't a God. Just nature and scared people.

    Report message3

  • Message 4

    , in reply to message 3.

    Posted by AlDajjal (U14195232) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    Muslims claim that the Arabic for word day can mean an undetermined amount of time. But I would beg to differ, as we know what a day is, and we also know what a year is. So we know what a thousand years is even though we will never live that long.
    It is clear that the quran is echoing the bible on the matter of the six days of creation, and the bible also says that a day in the sight of God is as a thousand years to us. This means that both the bible and the quran are saying that God created the heaven and earth in six thousand years. As this is obviously not the case, I put it to you that the real source of the creation myth as it appears in the quran is in fact the bible.
    We know the universe has existed for around fourteen billion years, and we have hubble space telescope pictures of the edge of the universe to prove it.
    We also know that the age of the earth is around four billion years, so we know that the universe existed for ten billion years before the earth was formed. We also know that the earth is made of atoms that were formed in the first stars, and ejected into space after they exploded. So planets could not even have been created for the first few billion years of the universe, because there were no heavy atoms in existence. So the bible is wrong and the quran exactly repeats this mythology.

    Quran, sura 7.54 Lo! your Lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six days.

    Quran, sura 10.3 Lo! your Lord is Allah who created the heaven and earth in six days.

    Quran, sura 11.7 And He it is. Who created the heavens and the earth in six days.

    Quran, sura 25.59 Who created the heaven and earth and all that is between them in six days.

    Quran, sura 50.38 And surely We created the heaven and earth, and all that is between them, in six days.

    Quran, sura 57.4 He it is Who created the heaven and earth in six days.

    Quran, sura 22.47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.

    Quran, sura 32.4 Allah it is who created the heaven and earth, and that which is between them, in six days. The he mounted the throne. You have not beside him a protecting friend or mediator. Will you not then remember?

    Quran, sura 32.5 He directs the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascends unto him, in a day whereof the measure is a thousand years of that you reckon.

    Here are the bible sources for these texts.

    Bible, Genesis 1.31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

    Bible 2Peter 3.8 But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is as with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    Report message4

  • Message 5

    , in reply to message 3.

    Posted by blaidd_cymraeg (U5517039) on Sunday, 26th June 2011


    The quran cannot be the words of God, for a number of reasons.  

    The main one being that there isn't a God. Just nature and scared people. 
    now jack you mean to say that an angel didnt chat up a bloke in a cave .

    Report message5

  • Message 6

    , in reply to message 5.

    Posted by AlDajjal (U14195232) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    Sura 5.112 to sura 5.115 tells of a story that God sent down a table of food for Jesus and the disciples. But this story appears nowhere in Christian doctrine, and it is assumed to be a miss interpretation by Muhammad, of the meaning of the last supper. As described in the bible at the Acts of the Apostles. Chapter 10.9 to 10.16

    Report message6

  • Message 7

    , in reply to message 6.

    Posted by blaidd_cymraeg (U5517039) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    tumbleweed

    Report message7

  • Message 8

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by FarewellMB (U14778946) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Islam claims that Jesus was a Great Prophet. It also claims that He did not die on the cross. Now Christians and Bible Scholars will tell you that the Bible is a very accurate record of what Jesus said and taught. In the Bible we find examples of Jesus predicting his death. Now either these predictions were wrong and he cannot be a great prophet or he was correct and he died on the cross. Is this an accurate representation?

    Report message8

  • Message 9

    , in reply to message 7.

    Posted by Rosebud (U14888612) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    The last word

    What a name for a thread on a board that is about to close.

    I can see everyone trying for the last word at the end of the day smiley - winkeye

    ( not me I have to work smiley - sadface )

    Julie

    Report message9

  • Message 10

    , in reply to message 8.

    Posted by Outrider (U14729772) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    In the Bible we find examples of Jesus predicting his death. Now either these predictions were wrong and he cannot be a great prophet or he was correct and he died on the cross. 

    Or, when the New Testament was written after Jesus' death (however it may or may not have occured) the authors made sure the depiction fit the story, met the predictions of the Old Testament and included prophecy that would be fulfilled within the narrative.

    Unless there is record of the prophecy before the event, and independent corroboration of the event occuring, there is no reason to believe anything met any prediction.

    After all, Belgarion was prophesied to defeat Kal Torak, and he did... should we start a schism based on whether he's an embodiment of Aldur or merely a tool of the deity?

    O.

    Report message10

  • Message 11

    , in reply to message 10.

    Posted by FarewellMB (U14778946) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    There is no serious evidence that there is any legendary development in the gospels. They were written down a lot closer to the death of Jesus that an copy of the qu'ran was to the death of Mohammed.

    Even were we to only rely on the gospels which were written maybe thirty or forty years after Christ's death on the cross we have the testimony of early church belief in 1 Corinthians 15. Christians believed right from the start that Jesus had died as was predicted and then rose from the grave. There were plenty of people alive at the time to say they were wrong but we have no record of them doing so.

    As to records of prophesy before an event, Isaiah 53 shows what would happen to the Messiah.

    Report message11

  • Message 12

    , in reply to message 11.

    Posted by Outrider (U14729772) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Even were we to only rely on the gospels which were written maybe thirty or forty years after Christ's death on the cross we have the testimony of early church belief in 1 Corinthians 15. 

    Which Gospels that were written thirty or forty years after Christ's death? Given that any adult eye-witnesses of the event - in a time when the life-expectancy was less than fifty years) - that still leaves these accounts as second-hand at best.

    Given that, you think that translations of the exact wording from a language based upon different cultural precepts is sufficient to give an accurate account of specific prophecy?

    The bible is exactly as reliable as the Koran, inasmuch as there is no evidence to suggest that the author(s) had any direct knowledge of the events they were reporting - the best you can hope for is that they got the general spirit of the alleged original message right.

    O.

    Report message12

  • Message 13

    , in reply to message 12.

    Posted by FarewellMB (U14778946) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Apart from the fact that you neglect to realise that life expectancy at the time is almost always cited as average (thus making the point that this includes those who died as babies and children and that any who survived past childhood had a good chance of living beyond 50) what do you mean by which gospels? Are you talking about the four that were agreed to be written by actual eyewitnesses (Matthew and John) or the one written by a close companion of an eyewitness (Mark) or the one written by one of the finest ancient historians (Luke incidentally as a professional historian I feel I have a right to give Luke this title). Perhaps you think we have missed the substantial number of so called gospels written much later?

    Suffice it to say there were plenty of eyewitnesses involved in writing scripture.

    It is completely wrong to claim that both the BIble and the Koran (as we currently have it, I am not ruling out the finding of earlier copies) are equally reliable. No serious textual critic would agree with this.

    Report message13

  • Message 14

    , in reply to message 13.

    Posted by FarewellMB (U14778946) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Apologies for the poor grammar. For the word four please read two

    Report message14

  • Message 15

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by chefone (U14431437) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Just the clay thing.......

    Seems that quite a few cultures have stuff in thier instruction books about making life from clay.
    The question needs to be asked as to what is the significance of this Myth....? Why is its theme repeated universally in so many different belief systems...? And if it is used in the bible / quran then power to them for finding its significance
    For what other myths have survived so long and is shared by so many religions....
    It makes sense to me that when one studies religous doctrines one should search for the meaning of the words rather than who wrote them.....

    chef

    Report message15

  • Message 16

    , in reply to message 2.

    Posted by NoDoubts (U14758139) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    The Sun and Moon in the quran

    Sura 21.33 And he it is who created the night and the day, and the Sun and the Moon. They float, each in an orbit.

    sura 36.38 And the Sun runs on unto a resting place for him, That is the measuring of the mighty and wise.
    sura 36.39 And for the Moon. We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shriveled leaf
    Sura 36.40 It is not for the Sun to overtake the Moon,nor does the night outstrip the day. They float, each in an orbit.

    The quran is clearly stating that the Sun has an orbit and the only realistic meaning of these verses is that Muhammed believed the Sun orbits the earth. Those that claim this shows incredible insight by Muhammed who realized the Sun had an orbit in the galaxy are talking rubbish. The quran shows clearly the limits of Muhammeds knowledge.
    For one thing the Sun and Moon meet at every eclipse, for another there is often a visible Moon during the day, so day and night are not so separate as the quran suggests. The verse about the Moon shriveling shows no knowledge of the fact the light of the Sun is illuminating it from a different angle.
    The Sun also does not run to a resting place, not unless you believe Greek mythology. Besides the quran goes on to say.

    sura 25.61 Blessed be he who has placed in the heaven mansions of stars, and has placed therin a great lamp and a moon giving light.

    sura 71.16 And has made the Moon a light therein, and made the Sun a lamp.

    These verses show Muhammed calls the Moon a light, which makes clear he did not know it was reflecting the Suns light. He clearly regards the Sun and Moon as separate sources of light, one for the day and the other for night.

    Sura 81.1 When the Sun is overthrown.
    sura 81.2 And when the Stars fall.

    The Stars will never fall as they are outside our gravity. In fact the Universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. But Muhammed thinks the Stars are just lamps to throw at devils, not distant Suns. as proved below.

    Sura 67.5 And verily we have beautified the worlds heaven with lamps. And we have made them missiles for devils.
    __________________
     
    AlDajjal you should be ashamed of yourself for hitting below the belt.Is your intention of being on this BBC Board just about having the last word on a religion you are not part of,will never be part of and will never understand.This attitude oozes prejudice.SHAME ON YOU!
    You thought yesterday was the last day and the board will not be open today so you lurked in the dark cloak and dagger fashion waiting till the dying seconds to open a thread fuelling your ignorance without giving Muslims on this board the chance to fully respond knowing that the opportunity will not arise; then sit tight and scoff at the final threads on show basking in your cheap glory. Well it back fired big time;DOUBLE SHAME ON YOU!!.
    Where have you been all this time? No guts to come out openly but instead resort to back stabbing. Yes !!! your user name says it all and if this is your character in real life and if you are also trying to emulate AlDajjal then TRIPLE SHAME ON YOU!!!
    Sadly my daughter and I predicted that someone would try something like this, but what's the point? to what avail? For you is it just about hatred,bigotry,prejudice,jealousy,intolerance,hypocrisy (don't tell me you never had Muslim friends or associates ) etc etc ; Lo and behold surprise surprise that person of all, turned out to be AlDajjal which is not a surprise actually.QUADRUPLE SHAME ON YOU!!!!

    Report message16

  • Message 17

    , in reply to message 16.

    Posted by AlDajjal (U14195232) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Nodoubts, well spotted, but I have no shame in the pursuit of truth. My writings are already on this forum, but they are so far back in the archives nobody will ever read them so I pasted in some of them to be left for muslims to consider.

    Here is another point I wish to remind people of.

    The age of Noah is given in both the bible and the quran as being 950 years.
    But this is now thought to be a mistake made by an early scribe who translated the bible without understanding the early numbering system.
    The point being that the quran exactly copies this error, thereby proving that the quran has been copied from a translation of the bible, and it is not from God.

    The numbering system in the bible is obviously flawed, and I did some writing about it, however I cannot find it. But I remember that the measurements of Noahs ark would be unrealistic, as the ark would have been higher than everest and a hundred miles long. So the bible is flawed, and the quran copies its mistakes.

    Report message17

  • Message 18

    , in reply to message 17.

    Posted by Cinammonbun (U14227939) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    The age of Noah is given in both the bible and the quran as being 950 years.
    But this is now thought to be a mistake made by an early scribe who translated the bible without understanding the early numbering system.
    The point being that the quran exactly copies this error, thereby proving that the quran has been copied from a translation of the bible, and it is not from God.

    The numbering system in the bible is obviously flawed, and I did some writing about it, however I cannot find it. But I remember that the measurements of Noahs ark would be unrealistic, as the ark would have been higher than everest and a hundred miles long. So the bible is flawed, and the quran copies its mistakes. 


    Obviously!! the metaphorical penny has dropped......

    Quick dear Muslims, renounce your faith!!

    Astifrugallah.

    As if we would take your word and drop out faith on the basis of what you say.....Thats the thing about some of the people on this board, they genuinely believe that by spinning some line about Islam - with no evidence, no explanation, nothing, just their own word - that some muslim somewhere reading it will rip off their headscarf/shave their beard, tuck into a ham sandwich and wash it down with a beer, annoncing themselves 'enlightened' and breaking 'free' from the 'chains of faith' never to be bound again......

    Really.....

    See this is why I am pleased this board is closing. Because the few people out there who cannot accept other people's opionions and leave them alone to have faith, ruin it for the rest of us.

    It would be nice if we could just learn to accept our differences and leave each other to live in peace.

    I just want to go about my business in peace and that is what the vast vast majority of Muslims want too. This board didn't help that so I say its not a shame that it is going.

    Report message18

  • Message 19

    , in reply to message 18.

    Posted by RayofSun (U14818146) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    "Thats the thing about some of the people on this board, they genuinely believe that by spinning some line about Islam - with no evidence, no explanation, nothing, just their own word"

    This is naive, it was reported in various papers for example that Isreal employs people to go on messageboards like this one and to do their work. I even posted a link to The Times of London, the moderators removed it.

    I am sure MBs like these are a threat to certain people in power, if it allowed allowed alternative ideas to flow without problem to potentially a large audience, this is why they have to see to it that this does not happen.

    To prevent this from happening the exchanges become infantile very often and in effect it becomes something where genuine researchers become frustrated and leave.

    Report message19

  • Message 20

    , in reply to message 8.

    Posted by Quartus45 (U2660290) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Islam claims that Jesus was a Great Prophet. It also claims that He did not die on the cross. Now Christians and Bible Scholars will tell you that the Bible is a very accurate record of what Jesus said and taught. In the Bible we find examples of Jesus predicting his death. Now either these predictions were wrong and he cannot be a great prophet or he was correct and he died on the cross. Is this an accurate representation?  Furthermore, Mohamed says that Jesus was a good man.

    Jesus said He is the Son of God, and that no man can come to the Father (ie God) except through Him.

    Now, either that is true or it is not true. If it is not true, then no matter how sincerely the belief may have been held, it is a lie.

    Good men do not lie.

    So, if it IS a lie, are we saying that Mo is a bad judge of character?

    Report message20

  • Message 21

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by trippymonkey (U6090156) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Salaam All
    If the Quran IS from God then why hasn't it told us exactly what happened to Jesus where the Bible doesn't???
    It can't for the simple reason it's not FROM God. You can only copy so much from previous sources but I am surprised the compilers of The Quran didn't refer back to this!!

    If Jesus, indeed, created life, as per the sparrows story then would that not actually make HIM God as certain Christians believe???

    Only Allah can create life, no??

    Peace
    Nick

    Report message21

  • Message 22

    , in reply to message 6.

    Posted by trippymonkey (U6090156) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Sura 5.112 to sura 5.115 tells of a story that God sent down a table of food for Jesus and the disciples. But this story appears nowhere in Christian doctrine, and it is assumed to be a miss interpretation by Muhammad, of the meaning of the last supper. As described in the bible at the Acts of the Apostles. Chapter 10.9 to 10.16  Message 6
    OH DEAR!!!!

    Peace
    Nick

    Report message22

  • Message 23

    , in reply to message 20.

    Posted by Outrider (U14729772) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Now, either that is true or it is not true. If it is not true, then no matter how sincerely the belief may have been held, it is a lie. 

    Not true. If Mohammed believed it, the truth or otherwise would not make what he said a lie - he may have been mistaken, but I do not believe anyone is alleging that Mohammed was perfect, only that the words he revealed were true.

    So if Mohammed were mistaken about something to do with Jesus, Jesus could still be a good man, and Mohammed could have been merely mistaken - no lie.

    O.

    Report message23

  • Message 24

    , in reply to message 22.

    Posted by grannieval (U3909013) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    The Holy Quran and the Holy Bible are not history books or texts books of science. The are religious books dealing with spiritual matters.

    If you interpret them literally then you miss a lot of the message in them.
    While no doubt there are some stories recounted from history they are there to provide guidance and instruction for the prophet to whom they were revealed, his followers and those who come after them.

    Where stories are retold in the Holy Quran there is always a spiritual message there. To understand it it is necessary to recognise the symbolism in them.

    The birds of Jesus, made from clay are spiritual not literal; clay being the earth element of man(Adam) soaring birds being the spiritually elevated station belief in Jesus provided. So the story of Jesus creating birds as a young child is a prophecy not a literal story.

    The Holy Quran, the Torah, Injil and all revealed teachings have several levels of meaning. To take only one and condemn the revelation because of limited understanding is to deny the real beauty of God's work.

    Report message24

  • Message 25

    , in reply to message 20.

    Posted by grannieval (U3909013) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    "Jesus said He is the Son of God, and that no man can come to the Father (ie God) except through Him.

    Now, either that is true or it is not true. If it is not true, then no matter how sincerely the belief may have been held, it is a lie."

    I do not see any lie here. When Jesus said this he was telling the truth. In his time he was the way to God. He was the Messiah and the way the truth and the light for his people in his day..

    Jesus was a good man, Muhammad was a good man. Neither of them lied.

    Report message25

  • Message 26

    , in reply to message 24.

    Posted by AlDajjal (U14195232) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Grannie Val, I am sure you are a spiritual person, and in some things I agree with you, as I am a spiritualist, not an atheist.

    But you are missing the point in regard to the origin of the childhood stories of Jesus. The story about Jesus bringing clay birds to life is from a book of fables written in around 150ad. It was fiction when it was written, but it has been included in the quran as a message from God.

    One of the other childhood stories of Jesus from the same book of fables says he killed other children, and I am sure you would not believe that is true.

    Report message26

  • Message 27

    , in reply to message 22.

    Posted by grannieval (U3909013) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    "Sura 5.112 to sura 5.115 tells of a story that God sent down a table of food for Jesus and the disciples. But this story appears nowhere in Christian doctrine, and it is assumed to be a miss interpretation by Muhammad, of the meaning of the last supper. "

    v.113. "and that our hearts may be at rest and we may know that thou hast spoken the truth"
    this is not speaking of literal table and food but spiritual things.

    Report message27

  • Message 28

    , in reply to message 24.

    Posted by FarewellMB (U14778946) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Actually both the Gospel according to St Luke and the Acts of the Apostles are set out as history books. They make that specific claim. Therefore they can be treated as such. For Christians the koran is not revealed wisdom as Jesus promised that the disciples would have all of the knowledge and that means that after they were dead no more would come from God.

    Report message28

  • Message 29

    , in reply to message 28.

    Posted by grannieval (U3909013) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    "Jesus promised that the disciples would have all of the knowledge and that means that after they were dead no more would come from God."

    This is news to me.
    Can you tell me where Jesus says this?
    Do you mean to say that God will no longer increase man's knowledge of Him?

    This would be a most extraordinary change in the ways of God.

    Report message29

  • Message 30

    , in reply to message 28.

    Posted by AlDajjal (U14195232) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    There is a fundamental difference between the message in bible and the quran.
    The bible says that Jesus was the son of God, and it also gives a lengthy narrative about Jesus being crucified, in all four books of the apostles.

    But the quran says Jesus was not the son of God, and that he was not crucified. So if the quran is correct a large amount of the bible is made up stories.

    But the bible ends with a warning that no one should either add or subtract anything from the book. Clearly the quran does this, and therefore it is subject to the penalties described in the last few verses of the bible.

    See revelations chapter 22 verses 18 and 19

    Report message30

  • Message 31

    , in reply to message 17.

    Posted by NoDoubts (U14758139) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Nodoubts, well spotted, but I have no shame in the pursuit of truth. My writings are already on this forum, but they are so far back in the archives nobody will ever read them so I pasted in some of them to be left for muslims to consider.

    Here is another point I wish to remind people of.

    The age of Noah is given in both the bible and the quran as being 950 years.
    But this is now thought to be a mistake made by an early scribe who translated the bible without understanding the early numbering system.
    The point being that the quran exactly copies this error, thereby proving that the quran has been copied from a translation of the bible, and it is not from God.

    The numbering system in the bible is obviously flawed, and I did some writing about it, however I cannot find it. But I remember that the measurements of Noahs ark would be unrealistic, as the ark would have been higher than everest and a hundred miles long. So the bible is flawed, and the quran copies its mistakes. 
    Please give references to back up your statement that:

    {{{ Quote: But it is now thought to be a mistake made by an early scribe who translated the Bible without understanding the early numbering system.Unquote }}}

    Who was the scribe ?
    When did he exist ?
    And which Christian council decreed that the early scribe made a mistake and what was their proof?

    Which Surah in the Quran gives the precise dimensions of Noah's Ark

    I could go on but can't tell when this board will finally deny access.
    Meanwhile here is some food for thought:

    www.islamictreasure....

    I promise to be back .


    Report message31

  • Message 32

    , in reply to message 16.

    Posted by Whisper_of_Iblis (U14095435) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Salaam NoDoubts,

    while I'm posting here under as dodgy name as AlDajjal. I have to agree this attempt to have the last word, is ill-mannered, and I hope it will not be the last word. When I first started posting some one started a brilliant thread on Islamic Etiquette that had some excellent quotes from the Quran can that be resurrected as i'd like those as the last words on the board.

    Gracefully Mullah Nasrudin.

    Report message32

  • Message 33

    , in reply to message 29.

    Posted by FarewellMB (U14778946) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    I never said that God will not increase knowledge of him. My point was that scripture was made complete when the Bible was finalised. There will be no more direct revelation.

    Peter and the disciples were given all authority and therefpre nobody else was or could be.

    Anyone else claiming that they have authority which supersedes the apostles is either not telling the truth or making Jesus out to be a liar. There is no other alternative.

    Report message33

  • Message 34

    , in reply to message 33.

    Posted by Capt A (U14389139) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Selams Farewell,

    Re Msg 33

    "There is no alternative', Says who?

    All praise and thanks are only for Allah (swt). The One True God. The Lord and Master of the heavens and the earth. The Creator and Sustainer of the entire universe. The Maintainer and the Nurturer of all that exists. The Being of utter Perfection and Majesty. The Being Who does not resemble the creation in any way. The Being Who is Pure and Complete in all His Names and attributes. He is the All Knowing, the All Seeing, the All Hearing, the All Able. All that happens is what He wills to happen and nothing happens except with His Will and by His Power. He is the Being of Absolute Tremendousness and Sublimity. He is not contained by time or space. Nothing limits Him in any way. No vision can perceive Him. No mind can understand Him. At every moment He is near to us. He is nearer to us than our jugular vein. He surrounds us and encompasses us in a way that our minds can never fathom but our hearts know for certain. Peace and prayers be upon His Final slave and messenger. Muhammad ibn ‘Abdullah (saw). The greatest and noblest of all creation. The one who is the nearest to Him. The one who was chosen to carry His Message to all nations. The one sent to establish His Law upon the earth for all time. The one who will be a witness over all mankind on the Last Day. Peace and prayers be also upon his family, his companions and all those who follow in his path until the Last Day.

    Amen.

    Capt A

    Report message34

  • Message 35

    , in reply to message 31.

    Posted by AlDajjal (U14195232) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Nodoubts, The concept that the bibles numbering system was mistranslated is a recent one, but if you think about it, it is the only sensible explanation for the ridiculous idea that Noah could have lived to be 950 years old. Nobody ever lived to that age, especially not in primitive societies. You are still lucky if you live to be one hundred year old even with modern medicine.

    But you cannot deny that the quran says Noah was 950 years old when he left.
    This is obviously a mistake that has been copied from the bible.

    As far as I know there is nothing in the quran about the dimensions of the ark, but there is in the bible, and the numbers do not add up. Thereby showing the bible is miss translated.

    Report message35

  • Message 36

    , in reply to message 32.

    Posted by NoDoubts (U14758139) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Salaam NoDoubts,

    while I'm posting here under as dodgy name as AlDajjal. I have to agree this attempt to have the last word, is ill-mannered, and I hope it will not be the last word. When I first started posting some one started a brilliant thread on Islamic Etiquette that had some excellent quotes from the Quran can that be resurrected as i'd like those as the last words on the board.

    Gracefully Mullah Nasrudin. 
    Hi Mullah Nasrudin.
    Don't know if I can find your request as I'm juggling lots of stuff at the moment and as there is just a few hours left for the board to close, I'll open a new thread called The Beauty Of Islam with a link to some quotes:

    Report message36

  • Message 37

    , in reply to message 36.

    Posted by Whisper_of_Iblis (U14095435) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Salaam NoDoubts,

    Thanks for using my signature rather than my posting name, look forward to reading the new thread,

    Not really a mullah Mullah Nasrudin

    Report message37

  • Message 38

    , in reply to message 37.

    Posted by AlDajjal (U14195232) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Having compared the bible story of Joseph in genesis with the Quran, I can just about follow the story as described in sura 12, but as far as I can see, anyone who did not know the Genesis story, or who did not have the Yusuf Ali translation with commentary, could possibly make sense of the tale of Joseph, as told in the Quran.


    Sura 12.4 launches into a description of Josephs dream, with no explanation of who he is or how many brothers he has. What is more the dream described is the second of two dreams that are told in Genesis. But the entire point of the dream is that the eleven stars bowing down to Joseph are his eleven brothers. Genesis explains Josephs family tree so you can realize this, but the Quran says nothing about the matter. The Genesis story also says that Jacob made a coat of many colours for Joseph, and that is why his brothers were jealous of him, but the quran gives no reason or motives for Josephs brothers to hate him. Nor does it explain that Joseph has one other brother named Benjamin who had the same mother as himself, but the other ten brothers are step brothers. Nor does sura 12 explain this issue at any time, including when Joseph sends for him from Egypt.

    So when Josephs brothers state at sura 12.8 When they said:" Verily Joseph and his brother are dearer to our father than we are, many though we be. Lo! our father is in plain aberration":
    This makes absolutely no sense whatever to anyone that has not read the full account in Genesis.

    Later in the story Joseph is put in power in Egypt, but sura 12 says nothing about him filling the granaries for seven years, it simply changes the subject to when his brothers amble into Egypt to trade, (sura 12.58) and it does not explain they are there because it is now during the seven years of famine. Then Joseph ask his brothers to send for a brother of their father, this again makes no sense without an explanation of the family background

    The bibles account of Josephs story is rich in narrative and it has four times as many verses as the qurans sura 12. What more evidence does anyone need that the quranic version of Joseph is a half remembered rendition of the bible story?

    Report message38

  • Message 39

    , in reply to message 38.

    Posted by grannieval (U3909013) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    I really wish I had time to explain all this to you.

    It is really beautiful.

    The Bible and the Quran are both right.

    The story of Joseph is a record of the relationship between the believers and God through His prophets.
    It is not the story of Joseph alone.

    If you read the Genesis account very carefully, and you know the history of the Children of Israel you will see that there are many discrepancies that cannot be explained by a literal reading of the story.


    It is not mean to be a literal account. It has many symbols which you need to understand to unlock the message in the story.

    Report message39

  • Message 40

    , in reply to message 39.

    Posted by AlDajjal (U14195232) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Grannie-val, as I have said, the quranic version of the story of Joseph is incomprehensible. It is clearly a poorly remembered rendition of the bible story.

    But without all the facts that make the narrative comprehensible.

    If it is any comfort to you I have also done literary criticism of the bible.

    Report message40

  • Message 41

    , in reply to message 40.

    Posted by grannieval (U3909013) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    "Grannie-val, as I have said, the quranic version of the story of Joseph is incomprehensible. It is clearly a poorly remembered rendition of the bible story."

    No it is not.

    It is a message with guidance for those who wish to understand.

    If it is any comfort to you I am just finishing typing up a comparison and commentary of the two stories.
    Neither are wrong. Both contain the truth.

    The story in the Holy Quran is told from a different point of view and for a different purpose to the story in the Bible.

    Report message41

  • Message 42

    , in reply to message 41.

    Posted by AlDajjal (U14195232) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Quick grannie, post your message. We have run out of time.

    Its a shame we cannot continue this discussion, as we might have reached an understanding.

    GOODBY!!!!

    Report message42

  • Message 43

    , in reply to message 42.

    Posted by grannieval (U3909013) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Maybe when the book is published d - or on another board

    Report message43

  • Message 44

    , in reply to message 43.

    Posted by AlDajjal (U14195232) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    You can carry on with me on the following forum, where I am Dajjal.

    uncensoredfreespeech...

    Report message44

Back to top

About this Board

The BBC Religion and ethics message boards are now closed.

They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available.

Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.

We will be introducing a new blog later in the year. Aaqil Ahmed, Commissioning Editor Religion and Head of Religion & Ethics, has a blog with more details.

or register to take part in a discussion.


The message board is currently closed for posting.

Opening times:
No longer applicable

This messageboard is post-moderated.

Find out more about this board's House Rules

Search this Board

BBC © 2014 The BBC is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.

This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.