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Have you made a difference?

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Messages: 1 - 50 of 59
  • Message 1. 

    Posted by IK (U14551302) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    This is a question to all the long term posters on this forum. The ones who are anti-Islam and the good Muslims who have tried to counter them. After reading this board for a long time I would like to thank both sides for increasing my belief in Islam.

    Do you feel the time spent on this board has made a difference to people who have read your posts? Poster like Betty, Selion, Ctoo, Brad etc have spent a lot of hours on here.

    Report message1

  • Message 2

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by grannieval (U3909013) on Friday, 24th June 2011

    Can anyone know if they have made a difference to others?

    I can only know if it has made a difference to me.

    Posting has made me think and given me something that I enjoy to think about.

    Report message2

  • Message 3

    , in reply to message 2.

    Posted by Betty (U1722779) on Friday, 24th June 2011

    I'm not sure if I have personally made a difference. I hope I have given people something to think about, but whether that makes a difference to those people is down to them, not to me.

    I have learned a lot about how religions work, and how they are supported in individuals and communities. The Muslim topic board has been the richest seam of learning because posters here have not usually been so robustly challenged about their beliefs as Christian posters have been; culturally it is not so easy for Muslims to be critical, satirical or irreverent about their faith.

    I have learned skills from others. I admire people who can spot logical fallacies in a twinkling of an eye and know exactly how to challenge them. I admire people who can be honest, despite an emotional attachment to a particular intellectual position. I admire people who can put their point across with humour and clarity. I admire people who know exactly when to withdraw from an argument.

    Report message3

  • Message 4

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by juswonderin (U1905495) on Friday, 24th June 2011

    Do you feel the time spent on this board has made a difference to people who have read your posts? 

    well, considering the agitated and frustrated manner in which several Muslims and their apologist sidekicks reacted to my posts, it would appear that, yes, I made some sort of a difference to them, whether the difference was beneficial to their mental well being or detrimental. I have no idea...........but it certainly seemed they were uncomfortable with my statements and facts.

    Report message4

  • Message 5

    , in reply to message 2.

    Posted by Peace_786 (U14704359) on Friday, 24th June 2011

    Gran,

    Posting has made me think and given me something that I enjoy to think about. 

    Now that you have been informed on the truth about mirza, has it made you think about returning to Islam?

    Ps. Do you have any intention to respond on the "example" thread?

    Peace.

    Report message5

  • Message 6

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Abubakar55 (U14258389) on Friday, 24th June 2011

    This is a question to all the long term posters on this forum. The ones who are anti-Islam and the good Muslims who have tried to counter them. After reading this board for a long time I would like to thank both sides for increasing my belief in Islam.

    Do you feel the time spent on this board has made a difference to people who have read your posts? Poster like Betty, Selion, Ctoo, Brad etc have spent a lot of hours on here. 
    They have made a difference to me.

    I rarely come across such vitriol, hatred and lies used to attack what someone else believes in 'real' life.

    Of course this only comes from a few posters, and some of it maybe directed towards me as they don't like my posting style but it certainly made me more aware that there is haters of Muslims out there.

    An unpleasant reality check for me.

    Report message6

  • Message 7

    , in reply to message 6.

    Posted by JP (U10590564) on Friday, 24th June 2011

    I rarely come across such vitriol, hatred and lies used to attack what someone else believes in 'real' life.
     


    Strong words. I have seen this in Muslims also.

    All you need to be is the wrong type of Muslim and have a different 'real life' belief.

    Report message7

  • Message 8

    , in reply to message 6.

    Posted by martg44 (U14046142) on Friday, 24th June 2011

    ""Of course this only comes from a few posters, and some of it maybe directed towards me as they don't like my posting style but it certainly made me more aware that there is haters of Muslims out there.""

    Abu

    I appreciate what you say, but if it helps there are 'haters' of just about anything out there. There are probably haters of the haters.

    Martg.

    Report message8

  • Message 9

    , in reply to message 3.

    Posted by NoDoubts (U14758139) on Friday, 24th June 2011

    I'm not sure if I have personally made a difference. I hope I have given people something to think about, but whether that makes a difference to those people is down to them, not to me.

    I have learned a lot about how religions work, and how they are supported in individuals and communities. The Muslim topic board has been the richest seam of learning because posters here have not usually been so robustly challenged about their beliefs as Christian posters have been; culturally it is not so easy for Muslims to be critical, satirical or irreverent about their faith.

    I have learned skills from others. I admire people who can spot logical fallacies in a twinkling of an eye and know exactly how to challenge them. I admire people who can be honest, despite an emotional attachment to a particular intellectual position. I admire people who can put their point across with humour and clarity. I admire people who know exactly when to withdraw from an argument. 
    Wow ! Betty this is your best post as far as I am concerned so thumbs up. I'm truly impressed and this is genuine and no sarcasm. I once thought you and I will never understand each other so now I take that back. However I just want to point out a slight discrepancy in your post ;

    You said " culturally " it is not easy for Muslims to be critical, etc etc.

    I think it should be " intrinsically " it is not easy for Muslims .......etc etc.

    That's it. Take care.

    Report message9

  • Message 10

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by mac_aveli (U1830093) on Friday, 24th June 2011

    Hi 1K

    Message 1

    Since I hardly ever get a response from my posts I presume that I have not made one iota of “a difference” No replies to this please smiley - laugh

    However although living in the FE (far east) very much aware of the many different religious groups I was oblivious, and naive, of the psyche, the mind set, of the indigenous peoples.

    What with the recent drum banging of religion, not to mention explosions, and the makings of a holy war it has made me think about what motivates people to sacrifice themselves through their religious beliefs.

    This MB has helped me to understand the significance of intensive indoctrination of the young.

    It seems to me that the ability most lacking amongst deeply religious people is the ability to think “as if” they had NO religious belief. To think and reason like a person of a different religion, or NO religion … ie, there is a complete lack of empathy.

    EMPATHY has been eradicated for the “outside people”. It is only applicable to their own religious culture ! The inside people. The only exception is if there was a chance of reversion. smiley - laugh

    So the difference this Message Board has made “to me” is a determination to stay on my true path of…. ATHEISM smiley - laugh smiley - laugh

    Must find another debating path. smiley - ok

    Regards mac BAA

    Report message10

  • Message 11

    , in reply to message 10.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Friday, 24th June 2011

    It seems to me that the ability most lacking amongst deeply religious people is the ability to think “as if” they had NO religious belief. To think and reason like a person of a different religion, or NO religion 

    that seems to also be true of the non-religious in most cases

    Report message11

  • Message 12

    , in reply to message 1.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 13

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by trippymonkey (U6090156) on Friday, 24th June 2011

    This is a question to all the long term posters on this forum. The ones who are anti-Islam and the good Muslims who have tried to counter them. After reading this board for a long time I would like to thank both sides for increasing my belief in Islam.

    Do you feel the time spent on this board has made a difference to people who have read your posts? Poster like Betty, Selion, Ctoo, Brad etc have spent a lot of hours on here. 
    Salaam IK
    I presume this post is aimed at the 'I'm digging my heels & not listening' type of Muslims who are quite prevelant on this forum???

    Peace
    Nick

    Report message13

  • Message 14

    , in reply to message 12.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 15

    , in reply to message 14.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 16

    , in reply to message 15.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 17

    , in reply to message 15.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 18

    , in reply to message 15.

    Posted by RayofSun (U14818146) on Friday, 24th June 2011

    Delboy

    I know of Muslims who will rip other Muslims off given the chance, I know Muslims who will lie to try and gain money for substandard goods they sell, I know Muslims who lie about selling halal meat, I know Muslims who will try to get their mentally distubed son/daughter married off by not informing others of the mental and or hidden physical illness (like cancer). None of this has anything to do with Islam, they are not following Islamic teachings, because they are 'sick', there is hope that they will learn and change, I leave their judgement to God, and I warn people to watch out for them if they have dealings with them.

    Report message18

  • Message 19

    , in reply to message 16.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 20

    , in reply to message 11.

    Posted by mac_aveli (U1830093) on Friday, 24th June 2011

    Hi Ayub

    Message 11

    Your :-

    “””””that seems to also be true of the non-religious in most cases”””””

    The difference IMHO is that the mind that has been saturated from childhood with religious tenets, about disbelievers etc, is hardly likely to even attempt to “see” the point of view or consider the opinions of a non-believers; for fear of the consequences. The wrath of ….. GOD/ALLHA .

    Zealots on this MB make it quite obvious that Islam is Right … End of story smiley - ok
    Empathy to “outsiders” NO

    Best have an uncluttered mind. Not committed to any Mythical theology, superstition.

    I feel extreme gratitude that my family, although a Christian background, NEVER insisted on a habitual following of the faith.

    Regards mac BAA

    Report message20

  • Message 21

    , in reply to message 20.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Friday, 24th June 2011

    the mind that has been saturated from childhood with religious tenets, about disbelievers etc, is hardly likely to even attempt to “see” the point of view or consider the opinions of a non-believers; for fear of the consequences. The wrath of ….. GOD/ALLHA . 

    couldn't the same be said for atheists who dismiss the very notion of trying to see it from the theists point of view because they don't see the merit in trying to see it from a point of view based on a "myth"? thereby considering the position to be beneath them.

    Zealots on this MB make it quite obvious that Islam is Right … End of story smiley - ok
    Empathy to “outsiders” NO  


    1stly, being able to see it from another viewpoint and thinking that viewpoint to be right are not exactly the same thing, you can do the former without it neccessarily leading you to the latter.

    & 2ndly, Don't you see the same kind of attitude displayed by the general contempt or antipathy with which many treat dialouge with religion and the religious?

    Report message21

  • Message 22

    , in reply to message 21.

    Posted by Betty (U1722779) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    couldn't the same be said for atheists who dismiss the very notion of trying to see it from the theists point of view because they don't see the merit in trying to see it from a point of view based on a "myth"?

     


    Not really. Atheism is an absence, rather than a presence. There is nothing to 'saturate' the mind within atheism. There are no wordgames or double-think techniquest to learn. There are no traditions, taboos or habits to adhere to. It just means you don't believe in gods.

    You sound as if you think that people should give myths a chance. Can you explain why?

    Report message22

  • Message 23

    , in reply to message 22.

    Posted by RayofSun (U14818146) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    Betty

    But you are an atheist who believes in the goodness and approprietness of the God of the State? It is right for this State, to tax you, to make up rules as it goes along by a few people sitting in a building called parliament who reach into the small details of your life (how much money you have, what you can do with it, when you can retire, what is right and what is wrong etc.). Furthermore you believe in some abstract notion of society this supposedly real thing which is greater than the sum of its parts (or individuals) which somehow transmits to you the correct things to do and how to live.

    There is no such thing as society, only individuals, and they do not tell other individuals what to do as far as I am aware, the only rules are you live your life and do not encroach upon my life or my property. So long as each individual follows these basic rules, we have no problem. Yet you create this God like State and insist that all individuals must respect it and follow it, for it is all good!!!

    I know there are atheist anarchists who do not have your faith in the State, for them I have alittle more respect than Statist atheists like you.

    Report message23

  • Message 24

    , in reply to message 23.

    Posted by Betty (U1722779) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    But you are an atheist who believes in the goodness and approprietness of the God of the State?

     


    I am an atheist, yes. I don't regard the state as a god, though. I'm out on strike on Thursday!

    Do you ever go out on strike against Allah? No? Is that because he is your god? There we go then.

    Report message24

  • Message 25

    , in reply to message 24.

    Posted by Jack-in-the-Green (U14769647) on Saturday, 25th June 2011


    Do you ever go out on strike against Allah? 

    LOL. Nailed it as usual.

    Report message25

  • Message 26

    , in reply to message 24.

    Posted by RayofSun (U14818146) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    You are on Strike? So what?

    This is appealing against your God, to help you out, its not going to happen.

    A Muslim does not need to go on strike against their Gog, they just make appeals to Him in prayer.

    Report message26

  • Message 27

    , in reply to message 26.

    Posted by Betty (U1722779) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    You are on Strike? So what?

     


    So the state is not my god. You don't go out on strike against your god, do you? You pray, as you said in your own post.

    Ray, you are unable to produce a coherent argument that the state is my god, or anyone's god.

    Report message27

  • Message 28

    , in reply to message 27.

    Posted by RayofSun (U14818146) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    Betty

    You refuse to go to work for a day or two (you will not get paid for this), to appeal to your master the State to do what you want. Your master the State will ignore you and not pay you and carry on. It seems like a very one sided relationship to me, one where you as the servant baiscally has to do as you are told.

    I would argue if anarchist atheists did not exist at all, lets face it they are a tiny minority amongst atheists anyway, that atheism requires total obidience to the State, it is as if you have now become an adult who rejects the God of traditional religions and the religious laws in general, in favour of the laws of the State, the anxiety created by accepting the State and its Central Bank money lending system is payment for being an atheist adult 'free and in command of yourself'.

    Report message28

  • Message 29

    , in reply to message 28.

    Posted by Betty (U1722779) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    You refuse to go to work for a day or two (you will not get paid for this), to appeal to your master the State to do what you want. Your master the State will ignore you and not pay you and carry on. It seems like a very one sided relationship to me,

     


    Well, you can make up stuff that 'seems' any way you choose. You didn't describe my relationship with 'the state'; you fabricated something. Inadvertently, you supported my argument.

    I didn't say that I had a two-way relationship with 'the state'. I said that 'the state' is not my god. The relationship I have with 'the state' is not in any way similar to the relationship you have with your god. You are supposed to have a two-way relationship with Allah, aren't you?

    I would argue ... that atheism requires total obidience to the State, 

    OK. Let's see your argument. Make sure it's your own argument, and not a cut and paste from 'The Daily Bell'.

    Report message29

  • Message 30

    , in reply to message 28.

    Posted by Whisper_of_Iblis (U14095435) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    Salaam Rayofsun

    You refuse to go to work for a day or two (you will not get paid for this), to appeal to your master the State to do what you want. Your master the State will ignore you and not pay you and carry on. It seems like a very one sided relationship to me, one where you as the servant baiscally has to do as you are told.  

    The state is no ones master, The State for me, is an enabler just as this board can be viewed as greater than the sum of it’s posts so is The State greater that the sum of each service it provides. If it was renamed “The Sharia” would you view it as less of a master?

    In most “Democracies” people are free to do largely as they please, look around you, how oppressed are your fellow citizens? Do you see a figurative yoke on their shoulders? In the UK I find the burden of The State light and not at all irksome why do you hate it so, maybe it is because you wish to be without responsibilities to your fellows?

    Coyly Mullah Nasrudin

    Report message30

  • Message 31

    , in reply to message 22.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    couldn't the same be said for atheists who dismiss the very notion of trying to see it from the theists point of view because they don't see the merit in trying to see it from a point of view based on a "myth"?

     


    Not really. Atheism is an absence, rather than a presence. There is nothing to 'saturate' the mind within atheism. There are no wordgames or double-think techniquest to learn. There are no traditions, taboos or habits to adhere to. It just means you don't believe in gods.

    You sound as if you think that people should give myths a chance. Can you explain why? 

    If these boards and the "is Islam any less irrational than xtianaity?" thread in particular is anything to go by, then I would say that the mind of the average atheist is saturated by a mistaken belief in the absolutness of empirical reason, and they totally fail to see its constraints and limits, and utter irrelevance to the question of God.

    Report message31

  • Message 32

    , in reply to message 31.

    Posted by Betty (U1722779) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    I would say that the mind of the average atheist is saturated by a mistaken belief in the absolutness of empirical reason

     


    I'm afraid I don't even know what this means. Can you give some practical examples to demonstrate?

    What are the limits of 'absoluteness of empirical reasoning'?

    How is this mindset supported? What kinds of structures or traditions exist to ensure that atheists always think along the right lines, and don't start thinking 'out of the box'?

    Report message32

  • Message 33

    , in reply to message 31.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    on the subject of atheism, on youtube i found a interesting (although it could have been better) debate between a Muslim revert (or convert, if you wish) and the former president of the American Atheist organization,

    it's called "Debate: Islam or Atheism? With Hamza Andreas Tzortzis & the president of American Atheists"







    Report message33

  • Message 34

    , in reply to message 28.

    Posted by Tina (U14867273) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    RayofSun
    "Your master the State will ignore you and not pay you and carry on. It seems like a very one sided relationship to me, one where you as the servant baiscally has to do as you are told."

    Well said.

    There is no heaven to look forward to after paying the high tax either!! May be one decent meal a day in old age in an old-peoples home somewhere.

    Tina

    Report message34

  • Message 35

    , in reply to message 33.

    Posted by Betty (U1722779) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    "Debate: Islam or Atheism?

     


    Bizarre kind of debate, then. If you don't believe in any gods, you can't be a Muslim, no matter how well the argument for Islam is put.

    How about answering my questions and giving some examples to show what you mean?

    Report message35

  • Message 36

    , in reply to message 32.

    Posted by Tina (U14867273) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    I would say that the mind of the average atheist is saturated by a mistaken belief in the absolutness of empirical reason

     


    I'm afraid I don't even know what this means. Can you give some practical examples to demonstrate?

    What are the limits of 'absoluteness of empirical reasoning'?

    How is this mindset supported? What kinds of structures or traditions exist to ensure that atheists always think along the right lines, and don't start thinking 'out of the box'? 
    Betty

    Maybe he means the mindset is "locked" from processing further anything about how the surrounding/nature has come about. Its easier to ignore religious scriptures and deny God's existence then to analyse the situation fully with a comlicated thoughtful process.

    Regards

    Tina

    Report message36

  • Message 37

    , in reply to message 33.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    here's the link, you may want to skip the introduction, the debate starts 6.30 minutes in

    www.youtube.com/watc...

    Report message37

  • Message 38

    , in reply to message 34.

    Posted by Betty (U1722779) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    Well said.

    There is no heaven to look forward to after paying the high tax either!! May be one decent meal a day in old age in an old-peoples home somewhere.

     


    Thank you Tina. You agree that my relationship with 'the State' is not in any way like your relationship with God.

    (Please don't assume that all older people end their lives in care homes. The vast majority live in their own homes, and care for themselves. Care homes are only available to the most vulnerable and needy older people. That's why inadequacies in the care system are so upsetting to most of us.)

    Report message38

  • Message 39

    , in reply to message 36.

    Posted by Betty (U1722779) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    Maybe he means the mindset is "locked" from processing further anything about how the surrounding/nature has come about.

     


    Well, lets see what he says. If you are right, then he has forgotten that some atheists, like some religious people, are interested in science, and explore how nature came about with enthusiasm.

    Its easier to ignore religious scriptures and deny God's existence then to analyse the situation fully with a comlicated thoughtful process.

     


    I disagree. Scripture provides a much simpler, much more emotionally satisfying explanation of nature than science. Scriptures were written for ordianary people and can be understood, and even memorised by children. You can't say the same for cutting-edge science, particulary quantum theory and abiogenesis, can you?

    Report message39

  • Message 40

    , in reply to message 32.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    I would say that the mind of the average atheist is saturated by a mistaken belief in the absolutness of empirical reason

     


    I'm afraid I don't even know what this means. Can you give some practical examples to demonstrate?

    What are the limits of 'absoluteness of empirical reasoning'?

    How is this mindset supported? What kinds of structures or traditions exist to ensure that atheists always think along the right lines, and don't start thinking 'out of the box'? 
    I have already tried to go through this in the thread I mentioned, look at:

    Message 33

    Message 38

    Message 51

    Message 52

    Message 53

    Message 54


    then if you still don't get my point, feel free to say why and perhaps I can try and elucidate

    Report message40

  • Message 41

    , in reply to message 40.

    Posted by Betty (U1722779) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    I don't get your point, Ayub. I'm not going to go through previous posts on another thread to find out what you want to say on this thread!

    Start with 'the absoluteness of empirical reasoning'. What is it, and what are its limits?

    Report message41

  • Message 42

    , in reply to message 30.

    Posted by RayofSun (U14818146) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    Iblis

    "In most “Democracies” people are free to do largely as they please, look around you, how oppressed are your fellow citizens? Do you see a figurative yoke on their shoulders? In the UK I find the burden of The State light and not at all irksome why do you hate it so, maybe it is because you wish to be without responsibilities to your fellows?"

    It gets abit boring repeating everything, but here goes:

    Can you in detail show me how in Democracies people are free to do largely as they please? Are you suggesting that the Central State does not at all regulate the behaviour and economy of millions of individiuals? Why then have a State, and millions of laws, including victimless crimes? The State in actual fact has detailed control and influence on the lives of individuals, including levels of taxation, the amount 'austerity they will face', identity papers ristricting travel possibly, the value of the pound in your pocket is also controlled by the Central Bankers at the Bank of England, they can steal money from you without your knowledge, this of course means they have taken your property and reduced your life, they do this through printing money and causing the currency to lose its value (inflation).

    I wish to be without responsibility to my fellows?

    No I choose to select my own responsibilities without some bunch of people in central and local government deciding for me what they should be because they are so clever, and forcing me. If I want to help my neighbours or my elderly parents, it is my decision to do so. It is disgusting that people now believe that being directed by politicians and bankers I have never met to live in particular ways as selected by them is considred freedom. When did God or any religion ever say that you must give up your will and freedom to those who are in power becuase they know better?

    Report message42

  • Message 43

    , in reply to message 29.

    Posted by RayofSun (U14818146) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    Betty

    A God is someone or thing, whether seen or unseen to the human eyes in the head, which is obeyed, appealed to in prayer etc.

    You have put the State the democratic State in the place of God, you think striking against it, proves that you have not, in fact striking proves that you are a powerless and obidient servant of the State which will not change a thing for you. All you can do is happily worship your State and try to convince those who do not worship your State, that paying taxes is not theft, it is good and serves 'society', you can say Central Banking and fractional reserve banking, which (the State your God) allows private banks to print money and charge interest is all fair and does not confer immense and economic and political advantage to a elite, but it does not sound convincing.

    Pasting a paragraph from the daily bell as a quote is not against any rules of public discourse anywhere, but it seems the ideas being given are not to the liking of the BBC moderators, who have no qualms about censoring open discussion, this is why the BBC is becoming errelevant.

    Report message43

  • Message 44

    , in reply to message 41.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    I don't get your point, Ayub. I'm not going to go through previous posts on another thread to find out what you want to say on this thread!

    Start with 'the absoluteness of empirical reasoning'. What is it, and what are its limits? 



    www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mb...


    there, I justmade it easier for you.

    Report message44

  • Message 45

    , in reply to message 43.

    Posted by Betty (U1722779) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    A God is someone or thing, whether seen or unseen to the human eyes in the head, which is obeyed, appealed to in prayer etc.

     


    So Allah is a god, right?

    You have put the State the democratic State in the place of God,

     


    Except I don't pray to it, don't always obey it, and don't, as you pointed out already, have a reciprocal one-to-one relationship with it.

    How is the state like a god, then?

    Is having a god a bad thing, or a good thing? Is it good for you to have a god?

    Report message45

  • Message 46

    , in reply to message 44.

    Posted by Betty (U1722779) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    there, I justmade it easier for you.

     


    Not really. I can't see the answer to my question in that post.

    What are the limits of 'absoluteness of empirical reasoning'? Just explain what it is, and what you mean by 'the limits'. Use simple sentences and avoid abstraction. Give clear examples from real life.

    If a concept is real, it can be explained clearly.

    Report message46

  • Message 47

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by kranker (U6190354) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    "Do you feel the time spent on this board has made a difference to people who have read your posts?"

    That is all beside the point. It's been pure entertainment.

    Betty

    I commend your patience in the face of some snidey comments from Muslims on this board and your dogged enquiry in the face of some pointless word games. You'd make a good Muslim. smiley - laugh

    I hope to read your comments on another board.

    Regards

    Report message47

  • Message 48

    , in reply to message 42.

    Posted by Whisper_of_Iblis (U14095435) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    Salaam Rayofsun,

    It is disgusting that people now believe that being directed by politicians and bankers I have never met to live in particular ways as selected by them is considred freedom. 

    Please share where and when you met Allah and Mohammed to make their guidence to live in a particular way more acceptable to you.

    I've no need to show in detail that I and others are free, tell you what, get The State to make me do it! As I'm free to leave the UK at any time and pusue a life in any other country that will take me and that's quite a few, a freedom that is also available to you but despite the "onerous burden" that you and others who bemoan their lives here live under, but continue to remain here, i'd say you also find it's "burden" of ease and comfort a little short of oppression!

    Freely Mullah Nasrudin

    Report message48

  • Message 49

    , in reply to message 45.

    Posted by RayofSun (U14818146) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    Betty

    "Except I don't pray to it"

    You petition it, same difference, strike against it hoping they will listen to you.


    "don't always obey it,"

    That sounds naughty, not all religious people obey their God all the time either.

    "and don't, as you pointed out already, have a reciprocal one-to-one relationship with it."

    What do you mean by this? You are one of millions of its subjects or as you prefer citizens, and you think it looks after you and you are by your own words happy to pay it tribute (protection money or whatever you want to call it).


    The Democratic State acts like a God and it requires the same type of obedience, and religious people may balk at the idea, but atheists generally will happily submit.

    Report message49

  • Message 50

    , in reply to message 48.

    Posted by RayofSun (U14818146) on Saturday, 25th June 2011

    Iblis

    "I've no need to show in detail that I and others are free, tell you what, get The State to make me do it!"

    Say to them you do not feel like paying them any taxes anymore, they are too high and you would like a debate about it.

    Serving and submitting to another human being, or a system run by a bunch of human beings is demeaning to the nobility of human beings. Serving the unseen Creator of the world whether you think he exists or not, is not demeaning. Individuals generally choose who they want to obey and by doing so they choose their God.

    Report message50

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