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The Goodbye Thread

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Messages: 51 - 100 of 100
  • Message 51

    , in reply to message 50.

    Posted by Peace_786 (U14704359) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    Monkey,

    No. She believes in the message he delivered. She just doesn't see him as perfect or divine. 

    So she believes in the message he (peace be upon him) delivered, but she does not believe in him (peace be upon him).

    It gets better.

    I deal with smarter people than you before breakfast mate. 

    smiley - laugh

    Peace.

    Report message1

  • Message 52

    , in reply to message 47.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011



    It's a case of exactly what Mohammed was- is he a messenger with human foibles and able to make mistakes even sin, or this perfect human (that Peace and his ilk are want to believe), infallible and the still living messenger.

    You can certainly believe that Mohammed delivered the Koran, without believing that Mohammed was a perfect being.

    The problem is that when you attribute perfection to a man such as Mohammed, some of his actions are then deemed acceptable- even to the extent that his 'example' is held over and above the rules stipulated in the Koran. Punishment for adultery being a good case in point. 


    The whole stoning of adulterers thing is a perplexing issue (in the sense that I don't know how anyone can seriously argue for it given the weakness of its case), but it is wrong to try and use that as a point for what you are saying, since there are plenty of non-submiter muslims, who take hadiths seriously, but have also deemed stoning of adulterers to be wrong and against Islam, without recourse to totally abondoning hadiths, or (as you seem to suggest) the whole example of the prophet (peace be upon him).

    you might have your own views about the prophet (apparently you are non-muslim?), but to muslims (including a submiter or otherwise), as far as i'm aware, there is no debate over whether or not his example is to be follwed; the only source of difference is the source for knowing about his example, i.e. the Hadiths.

    As for the "perfection" of the prophet (peace be upon him), I have yet to come across anyone claiming this, and in fact, it would be an impossible thing for anyone who knows anything about the hadiths and the Quran, since there are a number of reproaches within the Quran (and explained in the hadiths) from God to the prophet (peace be upon him). So the view is not that he was "perfect", but that, being a prophet (and therefore closer to the path of God than any of us) he, like other prophets, was a *better* muslim and man than us, and so the best of examples.

    Again I don't think even subimters take issue with this view, they just see knowlegde of that example as closed off to us, because they don't trust the hadiths.

    Report message2

  • Message 53

    , in reply to message 51.

    Posted by GurningMonkey (U14592265) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    'So she believes in the message he (peace be upon him) delivered, but she does not believe in him (peace be upon him).

    It gets better.'

    She doesn't believe that Mohammed was perfect or devine.

    I know this doesn't sit well with your view of things, but hey, I couldn't give a stuff.

    In my view I'm not even sure you're a Muslim- you're a Mohammedan over and above anything.

    You do like your smilies don't you.
    What are you, 5?

    Report message3

  • Message 54

    , in reply to message 53.

    Posted by Peace_786 (U14704359) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    Monkey,

    She doesn't believe that Mohammed was perfect or devine. 

    She obviously believes in the Holy Quran

    The Holy Quran commands muslims to obey the Messenger (peace be upon him).

    Which messenger does she obey I wonder? Can you confirm?

    In my view I'm not even sure you're a Muslim- you're a Mohammedan over and above anything. 

    Mohammedan?

    There is no such thing.

    Peace.

    Report message4

  • Message 55

    , in reply to message 52.

    Posted by GurningMonkey (U14592265) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    'The whole stoning of adulterers thing is a perplexing issue (in the sense that I don't know how anyone can seriously argue for it given the weakness of its case), but it is wrong to try and use that as a point for what you are saying, since there are plenty of non-submiter muslims, who take hadiths seriously, but have also deemed stoning of adulterers to be wrong and against Islam, without recourse to totally abondoning hadiths, or (as you seem to suggest) the whole example of the prophet (peace be upon him).'

    Well that's part of the problem Islam has- basically you've a compilation of sayings about which 1.5% are deemed authentic. The authenticity basically derives from the alleged line that the saying came down from. There is no point in that line of Chinese whispers that is not open to falsification and fabrication.

    If only 1.5% of all hadiths are deemed authentic, using highly questionable and unreliable techniques, and the Koran explicitly tells Muslims to exclude sunnah that is not the Koran or from Allah, one has to wonder where, theologically, the support for them comes from.

    Ironically, for the Mohammed obsessed, Mohammed himself never saw his own hadith recorded. The one person who could vouch for authenticity never even wanted them written (according to those self same hadith).



    'you might have your own views about the prophet (apparently you are non-muslim?), but to muslims (including a submiter or otherwise), as far as i'm aware, there is no debate over whether or not his example is to be follwed; the only source of difference is the source for knowing about his example, i.e. the Hadiths.'

    I'm an atheist, but I take an interest in looking at theological points- particularly when they are nonsensicle.

    As I mentioned, you can accept the message without accepting the infallibility of the messenger.


    'As for the "perfection" of the prophet (peace be upon him), I have yet to come across anyone claiming this, and in fact, it would be an impossible thing for anyone who knows anything about the hadiths and the Quran, since there are a number of reproaches within the Quran (and explained in the hadiths) from God to the prophet (peace be upon him). So the view is not that he was "perfect", but that, being a prophet (and therefore closer to the path of God than any of us) he, like other prophets, was a *better* muslim and man than us, and so the best of examples.'

    Ask Peace here. To him Mohammed was infallible- even before becoming a prophet. The perfect man, the perfect Muslim. Hence my accusation of Mohammedism.



    'Again I don't think even subimters take issue with this view, they just see knowlegde of that example as closed off to us, because they don't trust the hadiths.'

    Which is a pretty sensible approach considering the basis of them.

    As I said, I'm an atheist, and I of course disagree with the Submitters in their basic premise of the Koran and Allah's existence- however their approach seems more thoughtful, and a bit truer to the idea of the faith. Ie, that Mohammed delivered a book that is the word of god.

    I don't understand the thought process that would put Chinese whispers on an equal footing to the unedited word of your god. It doesn't make sense.

    Report message5

  • Message 56

    , in reply to message 54.

    Posted by GurningMonkey (U14592265) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    'She obviously believes in the Holy Quran

    The Holy Quran commands muslims to obey the Messenger (peace be upon him).

    Which messenger does she obey I wonder? Can you confirm?'

    She never lived when Mohammed lived. She doesn't obey him. She obeys the message he delivered (well pretty much).


    'Mohammedan?

    There is no such thing.'

    Unsurprising answer that. I beg to differ.

    Report message6

  • Message 57

    , in reply to message 56.

    Posted by Peace_786 (U14704359) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    Monkey,

    She never lived when Mohammed lived. She doesn't obey him. She obeys the message he delivered (well pretty much). 

    So she is disobedient? smiley - erm

    I thought as much.

    Unsurprising answer that. I beg to differ. 

    You can keep begging - it will make no difference Monkey.

    Peace.

    Report message7

  • Message 58

    , in reply to message 57.

    Posted by JP (U10590564) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    And here was me thinking Muslims were not supposed to pass judgement on others.

    Report message8

  • Message 59

    , in reply to message 57.

    Posted by GurningMonkey (U14592265) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    'So she is disobedient?'

    As much as she wants to be. She's her own person.


    'I thought as much.'

    Good for you.

    Report message9

  • Message 60

    , in reply to message 55.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011



    I don't understand the thought process that would put Chinese whispers on an equal footing to the unedited word of your god. It doesn't make sense. 


    yeah, see this is my point, (perhaps Peace can give his opinion if he disagrees) but I don't think the majority of Muslims (scholars and non-scholars alike) take the Quran and Hadiths to be on equall footing, and even the ones who do can easily see the mistake in their reasoning when they are asked why, since their reply will inevitably be that "it says in the Quran . . . ", showing that its authority ultimately rests on the Quran.

    The problem with the submiter standpoint (and the one you seem to be saying) is that it seems to want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

    I haven't studied hadiths (though Insha'allah (God Willing) I intend to since I believe it to be an important issue), but just going on your own statement that 1.5% are deemed to be authentic, that would still be significant enough to try and hold on to them (the authentic ones) rather than just saying stuff the lot, based on the Quran's sentiment on the matter, i.e. "obey the prophet" and "he is an excelent example to you", this shouldn't be that difficult of a thought process to understand, in essence it comes from the same place as that of the "submiters", an earnest wish to follow the commands of the Quran .

    Report message10

  • Message 61

    , in reply to message 58.

    Posted by Peace_786 (U14704359) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    JP,

    How can it be a judgement when it has "?" on the end?

    Peace.

    Report message11

  • Message 62

    , in reply to message 60.

    Posted by Peace_786 (U14704359) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    Salaams Ayub,

    (perhaps Peace can give his opinion if he disagrees) but I don't think the majority of Muslims (scholars and non-scholars alike) take the Quran and Hadiths to be on equall footing 

    You are absolutely right, the majority of Muslims (scholars and non-scholars alike) do not take the Quran and Hadiths to be on equal footing and it would be completely wrong for any muslim to do such a thing.

    The problem we have here is that it is biased non-muslims who "insist" that muslims take the Quran and Hadiths to be on equall footing.........it's quite sad.

    Peace.

    Report message12

  • Message 63

    , in reply to message 61.

    Posted by JP (U10590564) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    JP,

    How can it be a judgement when it has "?" on the end?

    Peace. 
    A disguise perhaps. The insinuation was all too apparant.

    I was also thinking along the lines of this.

    www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mb...

    Report message13

  • Message 64

    , in reply to message 63.

    Posted by Peace_786 (U14704359) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    JP,

    And I was thinking along the lines of:

    My ummah will be divided into seventy three sects. All of them will be in the Fire except one [Saheeh Muslim, no.976]

    As for the list I proivided, I have already (on a few occasions) provided evidence of how deviant the submitters are. I have also provided evidence about the qadiyanis and the deviancy od their "promised messiah". With regards to the others on the list, there is plenty of evidence available if you are interested.

    Peace.

    Report message14

  • Message 65

    , in reply to message 64.

    Posted by JP (U10590564) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    Let God sort it out.

    Report message15

  • Message 66

    , in reply to message 60.

    Posted by GurningMonkey (U14592265) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    'yeah, see this is my point, (perhaps Peace can give his opinion if he disagrees) but I don't think the majority of Muslims (scholars and non-scholars alike) take the Quran and Hadiths to be on equall footing, and even the ones who do can easily see the mistake in their reasoning when they are asked why, since their reply will inevitably be that "it says in the Quran . . . ", showing that its authority ultimately rests on the Quran.'

    But the hadith deal with a far broader set of rulings than the Koran. The issue is not so much hadith that contradict the Koran, rather hadith that suppliment or add to the original book.



    'The problem with the submiter standpoint (and the one you seem to be saying) is that it seems to want to throw the baby out with the bath water.'

    Why would this be problematic? Submitters seem to function quite nicely without the hadith. When you don't know the shape, truth or reliability of the baby perhaps it should be thrown out. the point is there is no baby- just a shifting mess of often contradictory sayings with no, real validity.



    'I haven't studied hadiths (though Insha'allah (God Willing) I intend to since I believe it to be an important issue), but just going on your own statement that 1.5% are deemed to be authentic, that would still be significant enough to try and hold on to them (the authentic ones) rather than just saying stuff the lot, based on the Quran's sentiment on the matter, i.e. "obey the prophet" and "he is an excelent example to you", this shouldn't be that difficult of a thought process to understand, in essence it comes from the same place as that of the "submiters", an earnest wish to follow the commands of the Quran '

    You should look into them, and their collection. The reliability of any and all hadith is questionable- they rely on sources claims hundreds of years after the events. Also, is not the Koran absolutely crystal clear in it's rejection of the Sunnah of anyone other than Allah? Doesn't it clearly state this?

    "Which Hadith, other than God and His revelations, do they uphold?" [45:6]
    "The Quran is not a fabricated Hadith; ...it details everything." [12:111]
    "Some people uphold vain Hadith to divert others from the path of God." [31:6]
    "The only Sunna to follow shall be God's Sunna." [17:77, 33:62, 48:23, 6:114]

    Did not Umar, Mohammeds mate, even ban hadith on religious grounds?:

    “ Umar ibn al-Khattab once tried to deal with the problem of committing the Hadith to writing. The companions of the Prophet whom he consulted, encouraged him, but he was not quite sure whether he should proceed. One day, moved by God's inspiration, he made up his mind and announced: "I wanted to have the traditions of the Prophet written down, but I fear that the Book of God might be encroached upon. Hence I shall not permit this to happen." He, therefore, changed his mind and instructed the Muslims throughout the provinces: "Whoever has a document bearing a prophetic tradition, shall destroy it." The Hadith, therefore, continued to be transmitted orally and was not collected and written down until the period of al-Mamun.'

    Can we assume Umar was a 'Submitter'? And he knew Mohammed.


    Even the Koran rejects alternative hadith to the Koran. The Koran itself is meant to be the only hadith. Even your god states this.

    Report message16

  • Message 67

    , in reply to message 66.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    Also, is not the Koran absolutely crystal clear in it's rejection of the Sunnah of anyone other than Allah? Doesn't it clearly state this? 

    No, it doesn't.

    Sunnah means "habit" or "usual practice", and within Islam it means the example of the prophet (peace be upon him). Like I said, it is actually the Quran itself which tells us to follow the Sunnah of the prophet, no Muslim rejects this, nor denies the Sunnah of the prophet as being the foundation of Islam alongside the Quran. Essentialy what you have are the principles (the Quran) and the specifics about their application (the Sunnah). NO one, as far as i know, rejects or denies this, the only issue is one of knowability of the Sunnah.

    Hadith means speech of a person, so it isn't exactly making a point about Hadiths(in the technical sense of the narated saying/actions of the prophet).

    Also, God's "speech" was given to us through God's prophet, and *it* told us to obey the porphet and that he is an example to us. something which would stand to reason, given that God's prophet would not say anything in violation of God's will (especially given the fact that if/when he did do/say anything out of line he was quckly reproached by God and put straight).

    Again the issue rests on verifyability hadiths, not the validity of hadiths, perhaps someone like surayoucantbeserious could weigh in on this here:

    if there was a reported saying/action of the prophet which was beyond reasonable doubt found to be true, and therefore a real Sunnah of the prophet (peace be upon him), would you accept it as something to be implimented ?

    Can we assume Umar was a 'Submitter'?  

    I'll be honest, personaly i don't believe in labeling Muslims anything other than just that, "Muslim". This is because the Quran tells us not to divide the religion, and that we are one brotherhood, and it admonishes quite harshly those people of the previous revelations for having just that.

    So long as one Accepts the founding principles of Islam as being The Quran & The Sunnah, then they are Muslims and nothing else, and as far as I can see despite all these different labels everyone seems to accept this premise.

    They only differ on externalities and trivialities, or the sources/knowability of the Sunnah, which to me isn't exactly the end of the world, since, as long as we all share the full acceptance of the Quran, we will forever have a firm handle on the basis for the Sunnah, because it stands to reason that the prophet's example would be in accordance and based on God's will, which is in the Quran.

    Report message17

  • Message 68

    , in reply to message 66.

    Posted by Peace_786 (U14704359) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    Monkey,

    But the hadith deal with a far broader set of rulings than the Koran. The issue is not so much hadith that contradict the Koran, rather hadith that suppliment or add to the original book. 

    Why is this an issue for you sonny jim?

    Submitters seem to function quite nicely without the hadith. 

    Off course they do - they even make it permissible to eat pig fat smiley - erm

    Submitters have created a very "western friendly" version of what muslims refer to as Islam.

    You should look into them, and their collection. The reliability of any and all hadith is questionable- they rely on sources claims hundreds of years after the events. Also, is not the Koran absolutely crystal clear in it's rejection of the Sunnah of anyone other than Allah? Doesn't it clearly state this? 

    Yawn.

    More obsession smiley - whistle

    Peace.

    Report message18

  • Message 69

    , in reply to message 67.

    Posted by Peace_786 (U14704359) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    Salaams Ayub,

    Monkey is obsessed with the Hadith - it's something he needs to come to terms with, Insha-Allah.

    Like I said, it is actually the Quran itself which tells us to follow the Sunnah of the prophet, no Muslim rejects this, nor denies the Sunnah of the prophet as being the foundation of Islam alongside the Quran. 

    Absolutely spot on brother.

    The leader of the submitters, mr rash khalifa referred to the Hadith as "satanic innovations".

    So long as one Accepts the founding principles of Islam as being The Quran & The Sunnah, then they are Muslims and nothing else 

    This has got to be the quote of the day smiley - ok

    Peace.

    Report message19

  • Message 70

    , in reply to message 69.

    Posted by warner - a new era of cooperation (U13687269) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    A few days to go..
    Goodbye and peace to all smiley - smiley

    Report message20

  • Message 71

    , in reply to message 70.

    Posted by IK (U14551302) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    I would like to thank Peace, Abubaker, Lauranto Balono, Sis Leila and others for their incredible patience and inspiring posts over the years. May God protect you and reward you for your efforts. I know Lauranto is not a Muslim and it's heartining to see fellow human beings with such understanding, he/she is a credit to humanity.

    Report message21

  • Message 72

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Rosebud (U14888612) on Friday, 24th June 2011

    Hi,

    In case I don't get a chance to pop back by the messageboards because I have a busy weekend, I wanted to say goodbye to you all.

    I have enjoyed reading all your posts, even if I haven't agreed with all of you smiley - winkeye.

    These boards have given me an opportunity to explore things I may never have thought of looking up and posters have often given me a lot to think about over the years.

    Even if we found our selves disagreeing with each other, it has often given me more pause for thought than perhaps I have let on.

    If we all agreed with each other, what would we have to discuss?

    For me these boards have encouraged me to explore not just religion but history and many more related subjects.

    I shall be sad to see them go, as I spend more time on these boards than I do actually watching television, so this was more value for my license fee in a way.

    There is something about an interactive board, where people argue back and put their POV that you cannot capture from a book, no matter how much you read around a subject.

    Sometimes people have a different way of looking at something and can help keep your feet on the ground.

    Anyway I feel I have learnt a lot from reading all your posts and seeing all your different POV.

    Thank you, all of you.

    Julie






    Report message22

  • Message 73

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by cymrudynnion (U14691512) on Friday, 24th June 2011

    To all my Muslim friends.
    Due to work, family, sporting and religious commitments I may not be able to post on the Boards after today.
    I hope to see as many as possible on Jankass' new Board but for those who don't follow suit may I wish you all a very happy life, itrs been a pleasure to know most of you.

    May your god go with you.

    Report message23

  • Message 74

    , in reply to message 72.

    Posted by martg44 (U14046142) on Friday, 24th June 2011

    ""In case I don't get a chance to pop back by the messageboards because I have a busy weekend, I wanted to say goodbye to you all.""

    Julie, ditto to that.

    Just in case, all the best to everyone on the MB.

    Martg.

    Report message24

  • Message 75

    , in reply to message 71.

    Posted by Peace_786 (U14704359) on Friday, 24th June 2011

    Salaam IK,

    Many thanks for your kind words and I pray that Allah (the exalted) grants you happiness, prosperity and peace.

    Ps. The same prayers go out to all of the non-muslim posters, in particular:

    Julie
    Lautaro
    Martg44

    You 3 in particular prove that whilst there are biased people out there against Islam, there are also people like yourselves who apply the balance that is critical to removing hatred.

    Peace.

    Report message25

  • Message 76

    , in reply to message 75.

    Posted by Tina (U14867273) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    Dear all, its time for goodbye...I have really enjoyed reading everybodys opinions sometimes even the cut & pastes. I have learned alot more about Islam from fellow muslims like Ayub O, Peace and Abu and others. For the
    Non muslims, I hope I have helped to clarify some of the misconceptions. As a fairly new blogger, it also made me realise there is plenty of hatred towards Islam. This may be due to some muslims as well as media. However, then you come across some very balanced people like Julie who gives hope to the rest. I
    wish Allah guides all Muslims and non muslims to live a peaceful happy life.

    Incase I have offended any one with my responses then I would like to apologise, especially to NinjaMind

    Regards

    Tina

    Report message26

  • Message 77

    , in reply to message 76.

    Posted by JP (U10590564) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    I argue against right wing policy, but I do not hate the right wingers.

    Why do Muslims always label anyone with a different world view etc as a hater or an Islamophobe and best (most comical) of all, a racist.

    Is it intended to stifle debate, shut down the opposition?

    Report message27

  • Message 78

    , in reply to message 77.

    Posted by blaidd_cymraeg (U5517039) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    smiley - ok

    Report message28

  • Message 79

    , in reply to message 77.

    Posted by Peace_786 (U14704359) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    JP,

    I argue against right wing policy, but I do not hate the right wingers. 

    Do you argue against the EDL?

    Peace.

    Why do Muslims always label anyone with a different world view etc as a hater or an Islamophobe and best (most comical) of all, a racist. 

    Maybe it's due to the same reason that you have labelled all muslims to fall into the category of labelling anyone with a different world view etc as a hater or an Islamophobe and best (most comical) of all, a racist smiley - erm

    Peace.

    Report message29

  • Message 80

    , in reply to message 79.

    Posted by JP (U10590564) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    Do you argue against the EDL? 

    Unreservedly

    Maybe it's due to the same reason that you have labelled all muslims to fall into the category of labelling anyone with a different world view etc as a hater or an Islamophobe and best (most comical) of all, a racist 

    And perhaps it is because you have labelled all non Muslims as biased and Islam haters.

    This is one of the problems with faceless inernet forums.

    Imagine the House of Commons, the very seat of government in the UK. The variousparties disagree strongly brtween political doctrine and policy. Does this mean they hate each other?

    Imagine if there was an Islam party in there with them. How much could you criticise the "Islam policy" before the usual Islam hater, Islamophobe card was used?

    Would the Islam party policy be open to question and critical debate?

    Report message30

  • Message 81

    , in reply to message 80.

    Posted by Peace_786 (U14704359) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    JP,

    And perhaps it is because you have labelled all non Muslims as biased and Islam haters. 

    Please be kind enough to provide evidence of where I have made such a statement?

    You on the other hand have made the statement as follows:

    Why do Muslims always label anyone with a different world view etc as a hater or an Islamophobe 

    Some of my close friends are non-muslims
    Most of my work colleagues are non-muslims
    My neighbours are non-muslims
    My GP is a non-muslim
    My dentist is a non-muslim

    The list can go on and on.....

    The fact is that I do not consider any of them to be biased and muslims haters.

    When people come on this board and start going crazy with ignorant and biased comments against Islam and muslims, then a muslim cannot be faulted for referring to them as biased and muslim haters (eg. Ninja Mind).

    Peace.

    Report message31

  • Message 82

    , in reply to message 80.

    Posted by LairigGhru (U14051689) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    Reason for the closure of this and other MBs?

    I believe it is jealousy and resentment on the part of commerce:

    www.guardian.co.uk/m...

    It's a shame that we have to suffer just to please people of that sort.

    Report message32

  • Message 83

    , in reply to message 82.

    Posted by NinjaMind (U14830397) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    The reason for closure is probably down to Aaqil Ahmed Commissioning Editor Religion and Head of Religion & Ethics; probably new to the job or even if there for a while : ''let's make me look very enthusiastic and make some changes to highlight this, I know close the boards that'll do.''

    There is no real reason to close them, not like it costs lot of money to keep them open; especialy when after they will close they'll still be visible. Just rather silly and pointless, some executive trying to look like he's doing a lot i.e. I know lets change somethings.

    Report message33

  • Message 84

    , in reply to message 83.

    Posted by NinjaMind (U14830397) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    Any coincidence Aaqil Ahmed Commissioning Editor Religion and Head of Religion & Ethics is a Muslim? Given the ridiculous and blatant censorship and moderation of threads and posts on Islam, often for no reason other than 'Big Brother' doesn't like those views on Islam.

    Post for example about Muhammed being a Paedophile and he would be arrested now for taking a child to his bed when it is absolute FACT (he was 50+ years old and took a child still playing with her dolls according to the Hadith, to his bed; he would be arrested in modern times), it is instantly censored or removed. Watch this space! Such blatant censorship and moderation is ridiculous.

    Report message34

  • Message 85

    , in reply to message 39.

    Posted by SweetTas (U8320324) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    I must say I have been impressed with the likes of Sura and Sweet- a newfound respect for Submitters has definitely been garnered. I tip my hat to you! 

    Thank you GurningMonkey, I find i actually receive more respect from atheists on the board than i do from other posters who claim to be muslim.

    It is for this reason amongst others that has helped me to understand the atheist perspective on religion. It certainly has been a learning experience for me All Thanks To God.

    Before i came on this board i had no idea what atheists thought of Islam as a religion and now I have come to the conclusion that the
    biased viewpoints and opinions is mostly due to how mainstream sects practise Islam and the way it is preached by the Scholars and their followers. Of course I accept that Atheists simply do NOT believe in the existence of God but what i feel makes people hold strong to being atheist is because how most religious people behave and they way they preach.....sadly most religious people mispresent themselves and do not stay true for what they really should believe in.....

    so thank you to those posters for sharing their opinions and even being critical of Islam because it helps muslims/submitters like myself in how we adjust our ways of preaching about The ONE God we love and worship.

    Peace

    Report message35

  • Message 86

    , in reply to message 44.

    Posted by SweetTas (U8320324) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    but you do need to believe in Muhmmad as the messenger of Alllah, that should be obvious enough from the shahada : 

    Yes a muslim after delivery of the Qur'an does need to believe Muhammed is a messenger of Allah however stating this belief is not part of the Shahada.

    The shahada is 'There is No Other God besides God' / La ila ha il-Allah'

    The shahada is confirmed in many verses of the Qur'an such as 3:18.

    You will find no where in the Qur'an where muhammed is mentioned or included in the Shahada. God is always mentioned alone in the Shahada. That is the foundation of the faith.

    We are required to believe in other things too but they are not mentioned as part of the Testimony of faith. Also the Qur'an commands us NOT to make distinction amongst the messengers of God. There is a reason why we cannot testify to muhammed's messengership and that is we simply didnt witness God choosing him to be a messenger AND we did TESTIFY before we were born in this world That God Alone is The One God, so we can make a testimony of faith stating this.

    The shahada is universal and every muslim in the past (before Muhammwed was became a messenger) present and in the future will always state the shahada as shown to us in the Qur'an.

    Stating Muhammed is a messenger of God is fine as a general religious statement since a muslim must believe in his messengership but it cannot be included as part of the shahada.

    so theoretically at least, if just one reported saying/action could be shown to be genuine to them, then they would happily take it and impliment it in their lives (perhaps one the supposed submiters on this board can tell me if that is not the case) 

    Not really because the Qur'an commands us to implement the laws that Qur'an details.

    anything else is just for personal choice not religious. If a Hadith states a muslim should honour their parents then that would automatically be implemented since the Qur'an commands the same, so really the Qur'an is being imlemented and not the ahadiths alone as a source of religious law.

    Report message36

  • Message 87

    , in reply to message 67.

    Posted by SweetTas (U8320324) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    based on the Quran's sentiment on the matter, i.e. "obey the prophet" and "he is an excelent example to you",  

    A prophet delievers divine scripture. The example to follow is upholding what the Prophet delievered 'The Qur'an'.

    The Quranic command to 'Obey God and obey the messenger' is upholding the laws of the scripture. Every messenger preaches in accordance to Divine scripture.

    You shall obey God and you shall obey the messenger. If you turn away, then the sole mission of our messenger is to deliver the message (64:12)

    Sunnah means "habit" or "usual practice", and within Islam it means the example of the prophet (peace be upon him) 

    No the Sunnah is the Islamic rituals e.g declaring the testimony of faith, salat, zakat, fasting, Hajj

    The Prophet Muhammed of course practised the Sunnah and so did the messengers before his time. Muhammed did remove the fabrications that entered in the salat which most were practising idolatory. The Sunnah didnt begin with Muhammed it was the 'usual practice' that goes back beginning with Abraham.

    So long as one Accepts the founding principles of Islam as being The Quran & The Sunnah then they are Muslims and nothing else, 

    This would be true provided the understanding is the Sunnah is referred to as the Five pillars of worship to Allah Alone.

    The example of the prophet is not his 'Own sayings/words, his personal lifestyle, his judgements on specific circumstances'

    So there is no need to waste time verifying the hadith of what muhammed supposedly taught and preached when we have the Qur'an since the prophet would have been using the Qur'an anyway to implement the Religious Laws.

    In my view the validity of Hadith is very questionable since they were collected and recorded after Muhammed left this world and God has NOT Authorised the hadiths of muhammed to be collected and upheld to be followed as a source of law beside the Qur'an so how can any muslim find them to have any validity?

    Report message37

  • Message 88

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by SweetTas (U8320324) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    well a goodbye from my side to all posters.

    I have been using these boards since 2007 and the interaction with non muslims and people claiming to be muslim has certainly been interesting, i have found it enjoyable, positive since i learnt a lot about people and their opinions and beliefs, certainly been a learning experience for me all thanks to God.

    Life will go on, Muslims in the UK have a great deal of work ahead of them to ensure that Islam is as peacful and tolerant a faith as it can be in this secular society. We must also continue to educate people on our faith and not our ancestors cultures, we must look to the future but I am positive that guided youth can hold such a torch. 

    I agree and i feel confident the youth in the future will achieve this in accordance to what God wills.

    I will continue to share annd preach my faith in my own personal life God-willing when i meet new people and my faith i believe is not based on traditions and cultures but more on peace, justice and righteousness.

    I believe there will come a day when peace, justice and righteousness will dominate the Globe and this is prohesised in the Qur'an and i trust what God says in the Qur'an will full faith.

    I wish you all the best of luck and may God guide us ALL to reach success in our lives.

    Peace and goodbye
    Tas smiley - peacedove


    Report message38

  • Message 89

    , in reply to message 88.

    Posted by blaidd_cymraeg (U5517039) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    well it certainly was an eye opener coming on here to find so many shape shifting lizards from outer space believers.

    Report message39

  • Message 90

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Sunday, 26th June 2011

    ♫♫♫ There's a sad sort of clanging
    From the clock in the hall
    And the bells in the steeple, too
    And up in the nursery
    An absurd little bird
    Is popping out to say coo-coo

    coo-coo Regretfully they tell us
    coo-coo But firmly they compel us
    to say goodnight
    coo-coo
    To you

    So long, farewell
    Auf Wiedersehen, goodnight
    I hate to go and leave this pretty sight
    So long, farewell
    Auf Wiedersehen, adieu
    Adieu, adieu
    To you and you and you♪ ♪ ♪

    AInt been on here for long, but I enjoyed the discussions and the participants I had the pleasure of coming across, even the over repetative ninja smiley - smiley

    Report message40

  • Message 91

    , in reply to message 90.

    Posted by little water (U6371605) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    I just want to say thanks for all your informative information.

    Lw

    Report message41

  • Message 92

    , in reply to message 91.

    Posted by GabriellaOssman (U14812622) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Hi

    Just wanted to say thank you and good bye to everyone. My apologies if I offended anyone - I was just trying to play along per the pretty ruthless style of this MB, so please don't take the tone of my posts seriously. It is not my preferred debating style, but I have certainly learned a lot from my short time (few months) on this MB and thanks for the welcome.

    It was a real eye-opener in some cases to see what some people really think of Islam - there seems to be a lot of misinformation out there - but also many Muslims seem misinformed about cultural practices versus religious requirements so that adds to the confusion. And then of course most Muslims may call themselves Muslims and say that Islam is the most important thing in their life but in reality don't practice their religion in every aspect of their life or every decision they make - normal human weakness is often more prevalent than the religion. That goes for me too of course.

    All the best to everyone.

    Regards

    Report message42

  • Message 93

    , in reply to message 86.

    Posted by Peace_786 (U14704359) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    SweetTas,

    There is a reason why we cannot testify to muhammed's messengership and that is we simply didnt witness God choosing him to be a messenger 

    I think you will find that the Holy Quran testifies to the messengership of Muhammad (peace be upon him):

    (33:40) Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the seal of the Prophets. Allah has full knowledge of everything.

    Here is the translation from Rash Khalifa:

    [33:40] Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things.

    Once again, Rash had to change the verse to accomodate his mistranslation smiley - erm

    In any case, by testifying and saying: Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the messenger of Allah (the exalted), you are simply reciting a verse from the Holy Quran.

    It is understandable why submitters oppose the "true" Shahaada - it obviously goes against the false claim of Rash Khalifa.

    May Allah (the exalted) give you guidance to seek the truth.

    Peace.

    Report message43

  • Message 94

    , in reply to message 92.

    Posted by Cinammonbun (U14227939) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Thank you and goodbye from me.

    I wont be joining any other boards.

    Whilst I will miss this board, I think that its a good thing that it is closing.

    I wish you all peace, health and happiness in this life, contentment in your heart and soul - wherever you may find that . Truth stands out clear from error and those with clear hearts will be successful and are the righteous. If you go through life always trying to keep your heart clear, you will have no issues insha'Allah and you will be happy and content in life.

    We have had our differences on this board and in the real world, so it goes on.....but this world was made diverse - whether you believe that is through design or accident - so lets celebrate that fact and love one another regardless.

    Not wanting to sound like a beauty pageant entrance, but I want world peace and I am pretty sure most people do too. Insha'Allah (God willing) we will find that one day and learn to live aside one another in harmony or at least in compromise and understanding......both in real life and online!!

    Best wishes,
    Asalaamu alaikum.

    Report message44

  • Message 95

    , in reply to message 94.

    Posted by NoDoubts (U14758139) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    I won't be joining any other boards either. If you see the user name NoDoubts anywhere else then it is not the NoDoubts from the BBC Religion Message Board.

    Report message45

  • Message 96

    , in reply to message 86.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    but you do need to believe in Muhmmad as the messenger of Alllah, that should be obvious enough from the shahada : 

    Yes a muslim after delivery of the Qur'an does need to believe Muhammed is a messenger of Allah however stating this belief is not part of the Shahada.

    The shahada is 'There is No Other God besides God' / La ila ha il-Allah'

    The shahada is confirmed in many verses of the Qur'an such as 3:18.

    You will find no where in the Qur'an where muhammed is mentioned or included in the Shahada. God is always mentioned alone in the Shahada. That is the foundation of the faith.

    We are required to believe in other things too but they are not mentioned as part of the Testimony of faith. Also the Qur'an commands us NOT to make distinction amongst the messengers of God. There is a reason why we cannot testify to muhammed's messengership and that is we simply didnt witness God choosing him to be a messenger AND we did TESTIFY before we were born in this world That God Alone is The One God, so we can make a testimony of faith stating this.

    The shahada is universal and every muslim in the past (before Muhammwed was became a messenger) present and in the future will always state the shahada as shown to us in the Qur'an.

    Stating Muhammed is a messenger of God is fine as a general religious statement since a muslim must believe in his messengership but it cannot be included as part of the shahada.

    so theoretically at least, if just one reported saying/action could be shown to be genuine to them, then they would happily take it and impliment it in their lives (perhaps one the supposed submiters on this board can tell me if that is not the case) 

    Not really because the Qur'an commands us to implement the laws that Qur'an details.

    anything else is just for personal choice not religious. If a Hadith states a muslim should honour their parents then that would automatically be implemented since the Qur'an commands the same, so really the Qur'an is being imlemented and not the ahadiths alone as a source of religious law.

     

    There is a reason why we cannot testify to muhammed's messengership and that is we simply didnt witness God choosing him to be a messenger AND we did TESTIFY before we were born in this world That God Alone is The One God, so we can make a testimony of faith stating this. 

    God suffices as witness for me to be one of those who testify to Muhammad's (peace be upon him) prophethood

    Whatever good visits thee, it is of God; whatever evil visits thee is of thyself. And We have sent thee to men a Messenger; God suffices for a witness.

    Whosoever obeys the Messenger, thereby obeys God; and whosoever turns his back - We have not sent thee to be a watcher over them.
    (Quran 4:79-80)


    It is He who has sent His Messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may uplift it above every religion. God suffices as a witness.(Quran 48:28)


    The shahada is universal and every muslim in the past (before Muhammwed was became a messenger) present and in the future will always state the shahada as shown to us in the Qur'an.

    Stating Muhammed is a messenger of God is fine as a general religious statement since a muslim must believe in his messengership but it cannot be included as part of the shahada.
     


    Well, we have the proclemation of faith as said by the followers of Jesus (peace be upon him):

    Lord, we believe in that Thou hast sent down, and we follow the Messenger. Inscribe us therefore with those who bear witness.'
    (Quran 3:52-53)

    and we also know that people bore witness during the time of the prophet:

    When the hypocrites come to thee they say, 'We bear witness that thou art indeed the Messenger of God.' And God knows that thou art indeed His Messenger, and God bears witness that the hypocrites are truly liars.
    (Quran 63:1)


    Generaly speaking, if one believes in the Oneness of God and Muhammad's (peace be upon him) place as God's final messenger and prophet, then whether or not they declare it, God knows it, the spoken shahada is not for the benefit of God, it is for us to be able to recognise the believers.

    A Jew or a member of the Baha or even a unitarian Christian will happily verbaly testify to the oneness of God, however, does that signify them as beng Muslim?

    No, it doesn't, because the Jews will not recognise Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them), the Unitarian Christians wont recognise Muhammad (peace be upon him), and the Bahai believe in people who bear no authority from God.

    In short, as long as you believe the formula of the shahada you are rejecting, then no big deal, but to deny it's place within Islam is mistaken because believers have been bearing witness to both the Oneness of God and the prophethood of the messenger who brought them that news for as long as there have been messengers.

    Report message46

  • Message 97

    , in reply to message 96.

    Posted by GurningMonkey (U14592265) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Bye all. Remember you only live once- enjoy it to the best of your ability.

    smiley - smiley

    Report message47

  • Message 98

    , in reply to message 94.

    Posted by cymrudynnion (U14691512) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    That's a great shame Cin, I was hoping we wopuld mweet each other on the newly created religionethcs board.

    Report message48

  • Message 99

    , in reply to message 94.

    Posted by Abubakar55 (U14258389) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Well this should be my final goodbye.

    I thought the board closed last night, so surprised to find it still going.

    I have joined another board but think that Sister Cinammonbun may have the right idea, I have had enough of replying to absolute bigoted drivel and really don't want or need to continue doing it. I will go and have a think about it before I continue on that board.

    I wish all my Muslim Brothers and Sisters the best, thanks for teaching me somethings and Inshallah we will meet again if not in this world then in a better place.

    I wish the best to all none Muslim Brothers and Sisters, I trust that I have not put you off Islam too much.

    Asallaamaleykum.

    Report message49

  • Message 100

    , in reply to message 99.

    Posted by trippymonkey (U6090156) on Monday, 27th June 2011

    Salaam Abu
    Yes, I thought it had closed today but it does say AFTER this date.... blah blah

    BTW
    I thought your new post over there about the Saudies was of interest.

    Peace
    Nick

    Report message50

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