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The Goodbye Thread

This discussion has been closed.

Messages: 1 - 50 of 100
  • Message 1. 

    Posted by surayoucantbeserious (U14208302) on Wednesday, 15th June 2011

    Well the end is almost here.

    Not the end of the world, although for some it will seem that way, but the end of a number of relationships that not even facebook can help reunite after the privelidge of using these boards passes.

    Did anyone prophesise that the end of the boards would be june 27? I will consult my Quran.

    I have very much enjoyed using these boards and having the opportunity to converse with lots of different people from lots of different walks of life.

    I would like to thank everyone that has taken the time to speak with me. My world will be a little smaller after this service dissapears.

    We once had an Oscar style ceremony for certain users here but i will not try and replicate that feat (certauinly because I won one of the less desirable awards) just to say that I would give everyone an award if I could, an award of thanks for your contribution to me.

    Life will go on, Muslims in the UK have a great deal of work ahead of them to ensure that Islam is as peacful and tolerant a faith as it can be in this secular society. We must also continue to educate people on our faith and not our ancestors cultures, we must look to the future but I am positive that guided youth can hold such a torch.

    With the events in the Arab world so unsettled at the moment I hope that this is the time where in a few hundred or thousand years time people look back and see that we, of this time, changed the world, bought peace to the Middle east, secular societies, and most importantly ourselves.

    Thank you my friends, it is interesting that in the end, when all our goals become common, we are all friends.

    Sura.

    Report message1

  • Message 2

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Rosebud (U14888612) on Wednesday, 15th June 2011

    Hi Sura,

    I hate to think what I would be awarded smiley - winkeye one of them would probably be an award for the longest postings smiley - winkeye

    and according to some the most boring............

    smiley - laugh

    Ah well!

    I shall have to write a book in my spare time along the lines of "the diary of Adrian Mole" smiley - winkeye

    The ramblings of Rosebud, perhaps smiley - winkeye

    Julie (RamblingRosebud)

    Rambling Rose smiley - rose

    Report message2

  • Message 3

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by NoDoubts (U14758139) on Wednesday, 15th June 2011

    Hi
    Sura,I was thinking of starting a thread like this but you have beaten me to it.Anyway what I want to say to you and everyone else that I have had discussions with on this board is that I ask for forgiveness if I have been rude or nasty at any point.
    Sometimes we get carried away and emotions often overcome reason so it will be good for bygones to be bygones.Water under the bridge.
    It will be condescending to name everybody so I'll like to say farewell to EVERYONE regardless of faith or no faith. I think these discussions no matter how infuriating and heated they get at times have really made me reflect a lot on life in general so as the saying goes " All is Well That Ends Well " I'll like to end on this positive note.
    BEST REGARDS TO ALL.

    Report message3

  • Message 4

    , in reply to message 3.

    Posted by Jack-in-the-Green (U14769647) on Wednesday, 15th June 2011

    I have often thought that in spite of all of the differences between posters on these boards, they probably have much more in common with one another than they realise. We all like to spend our days on computers (we all are obviously too anti-social or socially isolated to speak to real people), we all love thinking about religion and philosophy and we all love arguing. If it wasn't for religion, we might actually all get along quite well - something to think about.

    Okay last try: why not give it all up and make the world a better place? Not perfect, just better.

    Report message4

  • Message 5

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by Rosebud (U14888612) on Wednesday, 15th June 2011

    I have often thought that in spite of all of the differences between posters on these boards, they probably have much more in common with one another than they realise. We all like to spend our days on computers (we all are obviously too anti-social or socially isolated to speak to real people), we all love thinking about religion and philosophy and we all love arguing. If it wasn't for religion, we might actually all get along quite well - something to think about.

    Okay last try: why not give it all up and make the world a better place? Not perfect, just better. 
    Well I like debating smiley - smiley

    Although sometimes you could argue that sometimes there is no point unless it brings about change or some good.

    smiley - smiley

    I do spend a lot of time on a computer ( also at work), but I also spend my days ( when not on here) camping and fishing ( fly and sea).

    I also go off to concerts of one sort or another and mix with a very varied mixture of people.

    If it wasn't about religion we'd probably find something else to debate about.

    Human rights or what wine to have with what.

    Would it be a better place though? Because most of the posters on here probably don't hurt anyone, despite their furious debating skills.

    Maybe it is the ones who won't debate who don't consider the issues who do the most harm to others.

    Julie smiley - smiley

    Report message5

  • Message 6

    , in reply to message 5.

    Posted by tucuxii (U13714114) on Wednesday, 15th June 2011

    To quote a truly great book



    “I like half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve

     


    Seriously though it is a great shame that this forum will be lost as a means for us to grope for understanding and common ground in a time when mistrust and ignorance are sadly so common.

    I wish you all peace and that those of you that value tolerance, peace and justice are successful in your quest

    Report message6

  • Message 7

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by trippymonkey (U6090156) on Thursday, 16th June 2011

    Salaam All
    I, TOO, was going to start a thread like this.
    While I've been on most of the forums here I've seen all kinds of love, hate, hysteria, action, reaction, screaming & shouting & that's just from ME!!!!LOL

    ANYWAY...
    I've been enlightened, hoping I've helped others to read a bit more too, met many I just KNOW I would get on with perfectly well OUTSIDE this very forum despite some kinds of 'confrontations'.

    It HAS been useful & not only a lot of wild accusations all the time, which is not necessarily always a bad thing as long as people can reign themselves in when it gets a bit messy.

    I'm sure very many here have been exasperated by the mods' decisions when we 'KNOW' we're right!!!
    Many Muslims have been very patient with certain Non-Muslims & I'm sure some have thought to themselves, I wish I hadn't posted that or, at least, been able to rephrase it a bit. Vice Versa too.

    Maybe we can re-meet on another forum where we can be a bit less formal.

    I'd like to thank
    sura
    Peace
    Ayub
    Tina
    Abu, yes YOU TOO!
    And anyone else that has seen fit to indulge me on this forum!!!

    Peace
    Nick

    Report message7

  • Message 8

    , in reply to message 7.

    Posted by Peace_786 (U14704359) on Thursday, 16th June 2011

    Peace Nick and best wishes for the future.

    Peace.

    Report message8

  • Message 9

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by juswonderin (U1905495) on Thursday, 16th June 2011

    With the events in the Arab world so unsettled at the moment I hope that this is the time where in a few hundred or thousand years time people look back and see that we, of this time, changed the world, bought peace to the Middle east, secular societies, and most importantly ourselves 

    sura

    you have always come across as one of the more sensible Muslims on this MB, along with a handful of others who post rarely or don't do so any more. I understand you are Saudi and your unique approach to your faith may stem from your particular set of beliefs which are very much in a minority in the Muslim world, and not just a minority but one that would be met with strong disapproval in most Muslim societies and countries. Disapproval that could very quickly lead to severe sanctions and punishments.

    And to me here lies the danger that Islamism poses not just to a more stable world but more importantly the danger it poses to emerging secular democracies across the Middle East. The intolerance and bigotry exhibited by major Islamic states such as Iran, Saudi, Pakistan, Sudan, Somalia, the ex Taliban Afghanistan and others towards their own citizens, Muslim and non Muslim, who may want to be critical of their regimes or even of Islam itself, is a severe threat to peace and stability. The manner in which many clerics, scholars and others interpret Islam and force it onto the general public is a source of great danger, divisiveness and conflict.

    In this context, the examples of working secular democracies in places like Turkey, Bangladesh and Indonesia or possibly Malaysia will be followed with keen interest by interested observers, and there will be great hope for other countries in the Arab world, and for non Arab nations like Iran and Pakistan, the latter a major source of Islamist intolerance and hate.

    I certainly hope that progressive Muslims like you will gain a much stronger voice in the Muslim world, and I hope most of the other Muslims on this MB and their apologist non Muslim supporters will realize how important reform and more progressive tendencies are required to jettison a lot of the traditional approach to Islam, the Sharia, the Hadith and so on.

    Report message9

  • Message 10

    , in reply to message 9.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Thursday, 16th June 2011

    The intolerance and bigotry exhibited by major Islamic states such as Iran, Saudi, Pakistan, Sudan, Somalia, the ex Taliban Afghanistan and others towards their own citizens, Muslim and non Muslim... 

    No, there is no Islamic state in Somalia. In fact there hasn't really been a state for over 20 years. So I don't know how you got that it's a "major Islamic state".

    What there is though, currently, is a "Transitional" Government, and they don't really controll much of the capital, let alone the country. So it's kind of unfair for you to dragg Somalia into this world view of yours.

    Report message10

  • Message 11

    , in reply to message 9.

    Posted by Peace_786 (U14704359) on Thursday, 16th June 2011

    JW,

    you have always come across as one of the more sensible Muslims on this MB 

    smiley - laugh

    Sorry.....

    You will find that most people who are against Islam, seem to think that those who "regard" themselves as muslims and are not shy of ridiculing Islam, are regarded as "sensible muslims".......

    I understand you are Saudi and your unique approach to your faith may stem from your particular set of beliefs which are very much in a minority in the Muslim world, and not just a minority but one that would be met with strong disapproval in most Muslim societies and countries. Disapproval that could very quickly lead to severe sanctions and punishments. 

    So from what you are saying (considering you regard Sur to be a "sensible muslim" and amongst the minority), you regard only a monority of muslims to be "sensible".........pathetic, in a word.

    The muslim world regards such "sensible muslims" as non-muslims.

    I certainly hope that progressive Muslims like you will gain a much stronger voice in the Muslim world 

    Unlikely.

    Peace.

    Report message11

  • Message 12

    , in reply to message 11.

    Posted by juswonderin (U1905495) on Friday, 17th June 2011

    peace

    i believe my main point flew right over you......and your post merely confirmed what I am saying, the inability of many Muslims to accept and tolerate diversity in opinion, after all much of mainstream Islam is not just at loggerheads with people of Sura's opinion, they are at war with Ahmadis, Sunnis and Shias with one another, etc etc. It's just a short step from scorning other Muslims to something more extreme.

    m10

    Ayub

    it's true that Somalia is not a major Islamic state in the category of a Saudi or an Iran, but for the last 5 years or so, Islamist forces have been trying to take over the country, groups like Al Shabab control much of the south, and Sharia is implemented, a lot it rather crudely and barbarically. And since Somalia is strategically located, what happens there influences the region, i mean one can see what havoc the pirates have created, there are reports that radical Islamic groups are benefiting financially from piracy.

    Report message12

  • Message 13

    , in reply to message 12.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Friday, 17th June 2011



    Ayub

    it's true that Somalia is not a major Islamic state in the category of a Saudi or an Iran, but for the last 5 years or so, Islamist forces have been trying to take over the country, groups like Al Shabab control much of the south, and Sharia is implemented, a lot it rather crudely and barbarically. And since Somalia is strategically located, what happens there influences the region, i mean one can see what havoc the pirates have created, there are reports that radical Islamic groups are benefiting financially from piracy. 


    As you say yourself these are groups, so cannot be used to call Somalia a "Islamist State" of any sort.

    Especially considering that these groups are operating in a country which hasn't had a real government for over 20 years (the Transitioal governmnet has only been in existance relatively recently, and was/is made up by ex-warlords chosen by the U.N.), and so has been subject to a Hobbesian state of nature where it's a everyone for thesmeleves type scenario, with no authority beyond the rule of a gun, and which hasn't exactly been on the top priority on the world's to do list . . . so the problems which rise out such a scenario are (a) hardly suprising, and (b) nothing to do with religion, it is off the back of this that I said it's rather unfair to include Somalia in your world narrative, since it is under pretty unique circumstances.

    Report message13

  • Message 14

    , in reply to message 13.

    Posted by tucuxii (U13714114) on Friday, 17th June 2011

    Great even saying goodbye turns into a row , smiley - doh

    Report message14

  • Message 15

    , in reply to message 14.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Friday, 17th June 2011

    smiley - ermI'd hardly call it a row . . . talk about hyperbole

    Report message15

  • Message 16

    , in reply to message 9.

    Posted by Lautaro Bolano (U12264729) on Friday, 17th June 2011

    juswonderin,

    you have always come across as one of the more sensible Muslims on this MB, along with a handful of others who post rarely or don't do so any more. I understand you are Saudi and your unique approach to your faith may stem from your particular set of beliefs which are very much in a minority in the Muslim world, and not just a minority but one that would be met with strong disapproval in most Muslim societies and countries. Disapproval that could very quickly lead to severe sanctions and punishments. 
    You know nothing about him for you to be able to say all that stuff. What a load of nonsense!

    ******

    And to me here lies the danger that Islamism poses not just to a more stable world but more importantly the danger it poses to emerging secular democracies across the Middle East. 
    Firstly, to lump all Islamists together is ignorant. (Either you don’t know what you’re talking about or you are deliberately muddying the waters all the better to vilify Muslims.) Recep Erdogan is not Osama Bin Laden. Secondly, Islamism doesn’t exist in a vacuum. You can’t point out its dangers like as if they exist independently from poverty, dictatorship, corruption and torture. The reason Islamism is so popular is that it has shown itself to have the teeth needed to bite those who (are perceived to be) keeping dictators in power and thus many Muslims living in conditions of poverty, corruption and torture. If you ignore this connection you will never solve the problem that you identify.

    ******

    In this context, the examples of working secular democracies in places like Turkey, Bangladesh and Indonesia or possibly Malaysia will be followed with keen interest by interested observers, and there will be great hope for other countries in the Arab world, and for non Arab nations like Iran and Pakistan, the latter a major source of Islamist intolerance and hate. 
    These countries will, over years and decades rather than months, forge their own way forward. Hopefully, against the prior expectations of most of the Western world, they will be able to force the kind of change which will realise representative governments throughout the region.

    ******

    I certainly hope that progressive Muslims like you will gain a much stronger voice in the Muslim world, and I hope most of the other Muslims on this MB and their apologist non Muslim supporters will realize how important reform and more progressive tendencies are required to jettison a lot of the traditional approach to Islam, the Sharia, the Hadith and so on. 
    Progressive Muslims will gain a much stronger voice if and when dictators go and a free public space for the free discussion of ideas opens up. Muslim apologists like me will continue to educate ignorant people on points such as these.

    Sura isn't a progressive Muslim (if he's a Muslim at all). He's, first and foremost, a secularist.

    Report message16

  • Message 17

    , in reply to message 16.

    Posted by John (U14343434) on Friday, 17th June 2011

    Wow

    Some heavy stuff here.

    Can I, a raging athiest, Just say a friendly to ALL you chaps here, thanks for shedding light into my brain.

    Have a good life.

    I will do all I can to ensure we all live in peace if not agreement.

    Good luck lets share the planet nicely

    John

    Report message17

  • Message 18

    , in reply to message 17.

    Posted by John (U14343434) on Friday, 17th June 2011

    Oops forgot to put the word GOODBYE after friendly it's my age.

    John

    Report message18

  • Message 19

    , in reply to message 16.

    Posted by kranker (U6190354) on Friday, 17th June 2011

    "Muslim apologists like me will continue to [believe that they ] educate ignorant people on points such as these."

    Regards

    Report message19

  • Message 20

    , in reply to message 17.

    Posted by Peace_786 (U14704359) on Friday, 17th June 2011

    Hi John,

    Best of luck in all you do and have a happy (and of course PEACEFUL) life.

    Peace.

    Report message20

  • Message 21

    , in reply to message 16.

    Posted by realhappy (U1998328) on Friday, 17th June 2011

    Muslim apologists like me will continue to educate ignorant people  

    With your razor sharp intellect LB, could you tell me if this is a classic example of hubris or just a general case of being up yourself?

    Report message21

  • Message 22

    , in reply to message 13.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 23

    , in reply to message 21.

    Posted by Lautaro Bolano (U12264729) on Sunday, 19th June 2011

    bronsdad,

    I'm not sure there's a clear distinction between the two.

    If I was posting under my real name then you might have a point. But I'm not and I don't really consider what Ive written to be hubris or arrogance.

    Report message23

  • Message 24

    , in reply to message 22.

    Posted by Abubakar55 (U14258389) on Sunday, 19th June 2011

    A brief good-bye, I hope I have contributed something useful to somebodies understanding of Islam here.

    I would like to wish all my brothers and sisters in Islam the best for the future and success in continuing to tread the straight path, to learn more about our wonderful Religion and to practice with a kind heart.

    To my non-Muslim brothers and sisters, I wish you all the best in the future, I hope that I have not put you off Islam too much and I would ask you (not necessarily now) to just consider Islam for yourself sometime in a serious manner.

    I realise that I have probably offended some posters on this board, if I have truly offended you then I am sorry, my intention was to goad rather than offend and I trust you will accept my apology.

    Report message24

  • Message 25

    , in reply to message 24.

    Posted by kranker (U6190354) on Sunday, 19th June 2011

    "I hope I have contributed something useful to somebodies understanding of Islam here."

    That's for others to judge. I have had you caricatured as the bouncer at the Islamic party. You have fought off the atheist attacks with some vigour but probably don't have much of a clue as to what is going on at the party.

    Regards

    Report message25

  • Message 26

    , in reply to message 25.

    Posted by kranker (U6190354) on Sunday, 19th June 2011

    Forgot the smiley thing!

    Regards

    Report message26

  • Message 27

    , in reply to message 16.

    Posted by juswonderin (U1905495) on Tuesday, 21st June 2011

    i note that my earlier post in answer has been removed because it must have contained some unpalatable truths. Never mind.

    You know nothing about him for you to be able to say all that stuff. What a load of nonsense! 

    i see, but you do when you post

    "Sura isn't a progressive Muslim (if he's a Muslim at all). He's, first and foremost, a secularist."

    above is the usual contradiction expected from you

    Recep Erdogan is not Osama Bin Laden 

    i never said they were; where on earth did you get that bizarre idea? high time you developed your reading and understanding skills, perhaps the closure of this MB will afford you more time to do just that.

    The reason Islamism is so popular is that it has shown itself to have the teeth needed to bite those who (are perceived to be) keeping dictators in power 

    the apologism expected from you.......i can't imagine many Muslims in places like Indonesia or Pakistan having any time at all for your nonsense, considering that they are literally at war with Islamists in their own countries on an almost daily basis. Very good point Cameron made about the soft left being as equally menacing as..............

    Report message27

  • Message 28

    , in reply to message 27.

    Posted by Cinammonbun (U14227939) on Tuesday, 21st June 2011

    So long, farwell, auf wiedersehen, goodbye.......

    Assalaamu alaikum to all my Muslim friends on here and peace and blessings to all the Non-Muslims

    Its the end of an era! smiley - sadface its been a long time....

    I hope to meet you all one day in Jannah insha'Allah. And that includes those of you on here who do not believe. Please don't take offence when I say that I hope that Allah gives you guidance and you one day see the beauty, peace and joy of Islam that I do. If you do not - well, then that is your choice and I accept that.

    I think its good the board is closing - now we can all go and get on with whatever it is we are supposed to be doing!!! Everyone is going to be fine I know but a few individuals I do worry what you will do....perhaps you will find another board, perhaps you will find peace within.

    Remember that this board is not a real reflection of the world. It is not an accurate snap shot of Non Muslim opinion or Muslim opinion. The world is diverse and we were made that way - whether you believe we have a Creator or you believe we are here by chance without design - and the fact we are diverse means we should accept that and appreciate that. To the Muslims out there I ask that you do not think that non-Muslims think the way some of those on this board do.......and to the non-Muslims I say the same vice-versa. Everyone gets a bit bold behind a PC screen but that doesnt mean we are saying how we feel or that we are thinking....

    Remember these 2 things posted below if you remember nothing else, from this board. I will leave each to take their pick on which they feel is best for them. Not exactly the same but wise words which many can learn from........


    "I guarantee a house in Jannah for one who gives up arguing, even if he is in the right; and I guarantee a home in the middle of Jannah for one who abandons lying even for the sake of fun; and I guarantee a house in the highest part of Jannah for one who has good manners.''

    [Hadith of Abu Dawud]

     


    Keep your words soft and tender because tomorrow you may have to eat them. ~Author Unknown  

    Report message28

  • Message 29

    , in reply to message 25.

    Posted by Abubakar55 (U14258389) on Tuesday, 21st June 2011

    I have had you caricatured as the bouncer at the Islamic party. You have fought off the atheist attacks with some vigour but probably don't have much of a clue as to what is going on at the party. 
    Thanks. <smiley denoting gruff sarcasm>

    Forgot the smiley thing!  
    LOL

    Report message29

  • Message 30

    , in reply to message 27.

    Posted by Lautaro Bolano (U12264729) on Tuesday, 21st June 2011

    juswonderin,

    i never said they were; where on earth did you get that bizarre idea? 
    You speak of Islamism as a monolith whereas it is actually nuanced, contains contradictions and will continue to develop and change with time.

    Happy to correct you on this point.

    ********

    the apologism expected from you.......i can't imagine many Muslims in places like Indonesia or Pakistan having any time at all for your nonsense, considering that they are literally at war with Islamists in their own countries on an almost daily basis. 
    It might be lost on your but Turkey's progress under its Islamist PM is not lost on Indonesians or Pakistanis.

    Report message30

  • Message 31

    , in reply to message 29.

    Posted by Abubakar55 (U14258389) on Tuesday, 21st June 2011

    I would just like to take this opportunity to form a club, the "I have been in moderation for over 5 years club".

    Please feel free to join, I as democratically elected chairman smiley - winkeye think members should be allowed in even if they have only been moderated for 3 years.

    Anyone qualify?

    Report message31

  • Message 32

    , in reply to message 31.

    Posted by trippymonkey (U6090156) on Wednesday, 22nd June 2011

    I would just like to take this opportunity to form a club, the "I have been in moderation for over 5 years club".

    Please feel free to join, I as democratically elected chairman smiley - winkeye think members should be allowed in even if they have only been moderated for 3 years.

    Anyone qualify?  
    Salaam Abu
    What do you mean by being in moderation for 3/5 years? I thought they ALWAYS checked & modded threads. I had one just last week.

    Peace
    Nick

    Report message32

  • Message 33

    , in reply to message 32.

    Posted by Abubakar55 (U14258389) on Wednesday, 22nd June 2011

    I would just like to take this opportunity to form a club, the "I have been in moderation for over 5 years club".

    Please feel free to join, I as democratically elected chairman smiley - winkeye think members should be allowed in even if they have only been moderated for 3 years.

    Anyone qualify?  
    Salaam Abu
    What do you mean by being in moderation for 3/5 years? I thought they ALWAYS checked & modded threads. I had one just last week.

    Peace
    Nick 
    Well spotted Nick, I meant pre-moderation.

    The old club is now disbanded and a new one called "I have been in pre-moderation for more than 3 years" has been formed, I am still the democratically elected Chairman. smiley - winkeye

    Report message33

  • Message 34

    , in reply to message 30.

    Posted by juswonderin (U1905495) on Wednesday, 22nd June 2011

    You speak of Islamism as a monolith whereas it is actually nuanced, contains contradictions and will continue to develop and change with time.

    Happy to correct you on this point. 


    you're making things up.....once again. In my post, where I have termed Turkey a secular democracy, where have I stated that Erdogan and bin Laden are the same?

    It might be lost on your but Turkey's progress under its Islamist PM is not lost on Indonesians or Pakistanis. 

    earlier you told us that Islamism is very popular......you havn't explained why Muslims are at war with Muslims in several of their nations.......apart from your dodging and shifting. Quite pathetic.

    Report message34

  • Message 35

    , in reply to message 31.

    Posted by juswonderin (U1905495) on Wednesday, 22nd June 2011

    I would just like to take this opportunity to form a club, the "I have been in moderation for over 5 years club" 

    5 years, wow! Now why would that be the case? Shouldn't be too hard to work out.

    Report message35

  • Message 36

    , in reply to message 34.

    Posted by Lautaro Bolano (U12264729) on Wednesday, 22nd June 2011

    juswonderin,

    In my post, where I have termed Turkey a secular democracy, where have I stated that Erdogan and bin Laden are the same?  
    After five years you're begining to accept that there are nuances within Islamism? That one Islamist can be a force for good even if others are seen to have a destructive influence upon a given society?

    That's progress folks!

    ********

    earlier you told us that Islamism is very popular...... 
    Don't forget your learning. Islamism isn't a monolith but it certainly is popular in its various guises as evidence by Erdogan's convincing re-election.

    ********

    you havn't explained why Muslims are at war with Muslims in several of their nations 
    Each conflict has its own particularities. Name a conflict and if I know anything about it I'll name some of its particularities.

    Report message36

  • Message 37

    , in reply to message 36.

    Posted by juswonderin (U1905495) on Wednesday, 22nd June 2011

    After five years you're begining to accept that there are nuances within Islamism? That one Islamist can be a force for good even if others are seen to have a destructive influence upon a given society? 

    so you're still unable to back up your claim that I posted that bin laden and erdogan are the same? an accomplished dodger i see, well, at least you're an accomplished something.


    Report message37

  • Message 38

    , in reply to message 37.

    Posted by Lautaro Bolano (U12264729) on Wednesday, 22nd June 2011

    Evidently you need to work on your reading comprehension because I made no such claim.

    What I did say was that you lump all Islamists together and that it is ignorant for you to do so. I went on to illustrate why they are not all the same by giving an example of two completely different Islamists –“Recep Erdogan is not Osama Bin Laden.”

    Report message38

  • Message 39

    , in reply to message 38.

    Posted by GurningMonkey (U14592265) on Wednesday, 22nd June 2011

    Pity it's going- the board offered a chance to see theological Islam (by which I mean those who see it as a religion) and politicised Islam, and the personalities that represent each side, converse (if conversing is what in reality happened).

    I must say I have been impressed with the likes of Sura and Sweet- a newfound respect for Submitters has definitely been garnered. I tip my hat to you!

    What I won't miss are the endlessly puerile chats with people who couldn't understand simple concepts that ran against their particular beliefs. Infuriating in the extreme.

    I'm still at a loss to how anyone can take Hadith seriously, much less try and derive an entire legal system around it. frankly it's as plausible as Joseph Smith's sticking his head in a hat and translating golden tablets- but hey, when you believe in flying donkeys and split moons who can tell the extent of someones gullibility.

    But most importantly, I think it's noticeable that there are two, very distinct, Muslim deities worshiped within Islam. The first, and I hope the one that most Muslims subscribe to, is a kind and merciful being who loves his creation.

    The second, a jealous, murderous tyrant who promotes punishment and pain. Sadly those more vocal tend toward this Allah.

    There is of course the third god, Mohammed- one that is denied as a deity, but worshiped as such. One that is called human, but has all the abilities and powers ascribed to a god. And one that can change the mind of a omnipotent and omnipresent being- this god unfortunately seems to be on the march- with worshipers modelling their apparel, their facial hair and their family units, on his perceived lifestyle. It'd be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

    Finally I'd like to mention the conspiracy theorists- yep, those whose agendas are to promote an ideology by means of denigrating the one in which they live- It's a pity you live your life looking for 'proofs' of an anti Muslim agenda- and yet are free to voice these opinions on the very public sites afforded them by a society that allows freedom of expression. What is the greater pity is that the ideology that you seek to promote would deny precisely this ability to criticize. Furthermore, to promote Islamic political and financial systems as somehow 'free' when they're the opposite- and to be a supporter of the death penalty in terms of sexual preference or religious affiliation, well the word freedom should stick in your craw.


    If this board has made just one Muslim question their views of others in our society, had made them just one iota more understanding of non Muslims, secularists, atheists, women or homosexuals then it'll have undoubtedly been a successful exercise.

    As it is I rather think it's shown many Muslims how diverse their faith is.

    Good luck all!

    Report message39

  • Message 40

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by mac_aveli (U1830093) on Wednesday, 22nd June 2011

    Hi surayouc''''


    Responding to posts, and responces read have left me somewhat dizzy smiley - laugh

    Round and round the circular discussions go, very often deviating “miles” away from the OP.
    Serious questions, never answered.
    However, as that great Muslim Omar Khayyam, philosopher, astronomer, scientist wrote :-

    Myself when young did eagerly frequent

    Doctor and Saint, and heard great argument

    About it and about; but evermore

    Came out by the same door as in I went. … GET IT ?? smiley - laugh

    And :-

    How sweet is mortal sovereignty think some !

    How blest the paradise to come ..

    Take the cash in hand !

    And waive the rest ……. (What no virgins !! )


    The brave music of the beating drum …



    And on those words of wisdom, from a very Wise Muslim ..

    I say Farwell to all my fellow antagonists; and searchers of THE TRUTH……


    I will seek other outlets to vent my spleen.

    The moving finger writes; and having writ

    Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit

    Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,

    Nor all thy Tears wash out a single word of it.


    Regards mac BAA (Born Again Atheist)







    Report message40

  • Message 41

    , in reply to message 39.

    Posted by Peace_786 (U14704359) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    Monkey,

    I must say I have been impressed with the likes of Sura and Sweet- a newfound respect for Submitters has definitely been garnered. I tip my hat to you! 

    The majority of biased non-muslims are impressed with submitters.

    I'm still at a loss to how anyone can take Hadith seriously, much less try and derive an entire legal system around it. frankly it's as plausible as Joseph Smith's sticking his head in a hat and translating golden tablets- but hey, when you believe in flying donkeys and split moons who can tell the extent of someones gullibility. 

    Yawn.

    I'm still at a loss as to why you are at a loss regarding the Hadith smiley - laugh

    Maybe it's linked to the obsession smiley - winkeye

    There is of course the third god, Mohammed- one that is denied as a deity, but worshiped as such. 

    There is only ONE God - Allah (the exalted).

    Peace.

    Report message41

  • Message 42

    , in reply to message 41.

    Posted by GurningMonkey (U14592265) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    'The majority of biased non-muslims are impressed with submitters.'

    Biased? Not particularly. I like the fact they actually think about their belief (although I disagree with the premise of course). You, in my opinion, don't.


    'I'm still at a loss as to why you are at a loss regarding the Hadith'

    That's because you're a 'true believer'- willing to believe anything your told. I've no doubt that if Mohammed was reported to have eaten a plum at 6.17 on a Friday you would do it in remembrance.

    The fact is, you cannot be 100% sure of ANY hadith. Not one. I've looked in to the 'authenticating' of hadith- it's laughable. And I mean that- it's utterly comical.

    As for it being a 'science'. Pfffffft. Perlease.


    'There is only ONE God - Allah (the exalted).'

    But belief in Allah alone does not make you a Muslim according to you. You need to believe in Mohammed as well.


    Report message42

  • Message 43

    , in reply to message 42.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 44

    , in reply to message 42.

    Posted by Ayub_O (U14872501) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    well, perhaps you got your wording wrong, but you do need to believe in Muhmmad as the messenger of Alllah, that should be obvious enough from the shahada :

    There is no god but God, and Muhammad is the messenger of God

    I don't think even submiters would take issue with that, they just distrust the ***reported*** sayings/actions of the prophet (peace be upon him), so theoretically at least, if just one reported saying/action could be shown to be genuine to them, then they would happily take it and impliment it in their lives (perhaps one the supposed submiters on this board can tell me if that is not the case)

    Anyone who did what you are suggesting, i.e. not believe in Muhammad, would quite clearly be stepping outside of Islam . . . since it is difficult to claim you believe in God's message but not God's messenger who gave you that message.


    This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose the information in any way, and notify us immediately. The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC, unless specifically stated.

    Report message44

  • Message 45

    , in reply to message 42.

    Posted by JP (U10590564) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    If I had to choose, I would go with the Quran only.

    The Quran advocated flogging for adultery, yet Gods word is overruled and stoning introduced. Why would this be?

    In addition, the hadith were compiled by people a hundred years on from the death of Mohammed, Sunni and Shia have different collections.

    If the Quran is the final message it is riven by human sectarianism from the very beginning.

    Report message45

  • Message 46

    , in reply to message 42.

    Posted by Peace_786 (U14704359) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    Monkey,

    That's because you're a 'true believer'- willing to believe anything your told. I've no doubt that if Mohammed was reported to have eaten a plum at 6.17 on a Friday you would do it in remembrance. 

    Progress..........at last.

    I've looked in to the 'authenticating' of hadith- it's laughable. And I mean that- it's utterly comical. 

    So you continue to dedicate your time to Islam..........more obsession smiley - erm

    But belief in Allah alone does not make you a Muslim according to you. You need to believe in Mohammed as well. 

    This is priceless Monkey - just when I thought you could not be any more delluded, you go and make a statement which makes it clear how much out of touch you really are...........

    You said:

    You need to believe in Mohammed as well. 

    Guess what, this might be news to you but the Holy Quran not only commands muslims to believe in Muhammad (peace be upon him), bit it also commands muslims to OBEY Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

    Ps. Apparently your wife is a muslim. And according to your delluded logic, she must therefore NOT believe in Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) smiley - erm

    Well done sonny Jim smiley - laugh

    Peace.

    Report message46

  • Message 47

    , in reply to message 44.

    Posted by GurningMonkey (U14592265) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    'well, perhaps you got your wording wrong, but you do need to believe in Muhmmad as the messenger of Alllah, that should be obvious enough from the shahada :

    There is no god but God, and Muhammad is the messenger of God

    I don't think even submiters would take issue with that, they just distrust the ***reported*** sayings/actions of the prophet (peace be upon him), so theoretically at least, if just one reported saying/action could be shown to be genuine to them, then they would happily take it and impliment it in their lives (perhaps one the supposed submiters on this board can tell me if that is not the case)

    Anyone who did what you are suggesting, i.e. not believe in Muhammad, would quite clearly be stepping outside of Islam . . . since it is difficult to claim you believe in God's message but not God's messenger who gave you that message.'


    Not at all.

    It's a case of exactly what Mohammed was- is he a messenger with human foibles and able to make mistakes even sin, or this perfect human (that Peace and his ilk are want to believe), infallible and the still living messenger.

    You can certainly believe that Mohammed delivered the Koran, without believing that Mohammed was a perfect being.

    The problem is that when you attribute perfection to a man such as Mohammed, some of his actions are then deemed acceptable- even to the extent that his 'example' is held over and above the rules stipulated in the Koran. Punishment for adultery being a good case in point.

    Report message47

  • Message 48

    , in reply to message 47.

    Posted by JP (U10590564) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    Such is the obsession with Mohammed, Mohammed this and Mohammed that, many years ago my son asked me if Mohammed was "what they called God".

    Report message48

  • Message 49

    , in reply to message 46.

    Posted by GurningMonkey (U14592265) on Thursday, 23rd June 2011

    'Progress..........at last.'

    Glad you admit to it.


    'So you continue to dedicate your time to Islam..........more obsession'

    You keep barking on about obsession, I come on this board occasionally when I have a bit of spare time in the office- I don't think I even bothered for a couple of weeks. Hardly an obsession, more a passing interest. I also find your inability to take on board simple concepts mildly amusing. It's like playing with a slight dim kitten.


    'This is priceless Monkey - just when I thought you could not be any more delluded, you go and make a statement which makes it clear how much out of touch you really are...........'

    Here we go again. You just don't get what is being written do you. There is a difference in the belief in Mohammed's delivery of the Koran, and belief in Mohammeds infallibility. The two are not mutually exclusive.

    "You will find that the Sunna of Allah is the only Sunna" (33:62....35:43.....48:23)

    "These are God's revelations that We recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6

    "Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6:114

    "This scripture (Quran) has been revealed to you - you shall not harbor doubt about it in your heart - that you may warn with it, and to provide a reminder for the believers. You shall all follow what is revealed to you from your Lord; do not follow any idols besides Him. Rarely do you take heed." 7:2-3






    'Guess what, this might be news to you but the Holy Quran not only commands muslims to believe in Muhammad (peace be upon him), bit it also commands muslims to OBEY Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).'

    It orders Muslims to OBEY Mohammed- ie the alive and kicking Mohammed. When he was alive and kicking. You can't obey a dead man.

    You follow him, worship him, copy his actions, study his alleged words, grow facial hair to emulate him (why on earth does hair make anyone more holy??).

    You hold him equal to your deity.

    Report message49

  • Message 50

    , in reply to message 46.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

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