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do some religions teach murder ?

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Messages: 1 - 50 of 138
  • Message 1. 

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Friday, 15th October 2010

    while discussing sanctioned Rape here ~ www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mb..., i was reminded by my muslim brother LB, that some religions actually also sanction Murder as well as Rape, ~ this can be found in my own "Bibles" Torah section, where Moses sanctioned Mass Genocide and capturing women for pro-creation purposes !


    But thank God (aka Jesus) that 1-2000 years later we have moved on and His more en-lightened time He clearly saw that it was wrong and went well out of His way to aid all women, prevent them from being stoned and taught avoidance of Wars by even going so far as to carrying the enemies baggage for him "that Extra mile"

    ~ So now that we are even more en-lightened than in Jesus' time, do we still have any religions that actually Preach Murder ?

    Satanism ~ Perhaps ? smiley - erm
    Chps and verses on a postcard please or else below will do just fine smiley - smiley

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  • Message 2

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by GurningMonkey (U14592265) on Friday, 15th October 2010

    I don't think Satanism preaches murder? I've certainly never read that!

    Although I would say that just about all religions have murderous parts- usually with a mind to wiping out people who don't agree with them.

    Religions are basically ideologies wrapped up in made up mysticism- and as such they tend to veer towards the extermination of those percieved as a threat. Nazism, Communism, Islamism, Christianity, Judaism, Facsism - they're all basically the same thing.

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  • Message 3

    , in reply to message 2.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Friday, 15th October 2010

    hi GurningMonkey,

    sorry as i have to disagree again
    >>> Communism, Islamism, Christianity, Judaism, Facsism -

    as Xtianity isn't an " ism "
    and i can't find any N.T. verses that sanction us to "hurt other people", but that's for another thread smiley - peacedove

    So besides the Jewish O.T. can we find any "HATE verses" in other scriptures like Buddhism or Hinduism or Islam ??

    ie
    Surah 8:
    AL-ANFAL (SPOILS OF WAR, BOOTY)

    008.012
    YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will INSTIL TERROR into the hearts of the Unbelievers: SMITE ye above their necks and SMITE all their finger-tips off them."
    www.usc.edu/schools/... 

    smiley - yikes

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  • Message 4

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Exioce (U6719061) on Friday, 15th October 2010

    this can be found in my own "Bibles" Torah section, where Moses sanctioned Mass Genocide and capturing women for pro-creation purposes ! 

    Would this not make Moses an evil false prophet and the god that sanctioned his behaviour evil and a false god?

    Report message4

  • Message 5

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Friday, 15th October 2010

    hi Exioce

    long time no speak
    >>> Would this not make Moses an evil false prophet and the god that sanctioned his behaviour evil and a false god?

    well if the evidence fits how can one deny it smiley - ok
    However, there are some pretty amazing intricacies in his book unlike that other genocidal chappie starting with the same two letters smiley - devil

    Report message5

  • Message 6

    , in reply to message 5.

    Posted by Exioce (U6719061) on Friday, 15th October 2010

    well if the evidence fits how can one deny it 

    Usually by not giving a straight answer. For example, instead of saying 'Yes' or 'No' one might say "if the evidence fits how can one deny it" making the answer clausal.

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  • Message 7

    , in reply to message 6.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 8

    , in reply to message 7.

    Posted by Exioce (U6719061) on Friday, 15th October 2010

    A non-answer again, topped off with some cut and paste. Cutting and pasting your own stuff still counts as cut and paste.

    Report message8

  • Message 9

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by trippymonkey (U6090156) on Saturday, 16th October 2010

    OP
    Jesus WASN'T God. I thought we'd gone through this many times over on the Christian Board????
    Although you ARE right about the rest!!

    Peace
    Nick

    Report message9

  • Message 10

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Saturday, 16th October 2010

    hi Exioce,


    >>> A non-answer again, topped off with some cut and paste. Cutting and pasting your own stuff still counts as cut and paste.


    you are * * * impossible * * * (but still likeable with it ),
    I have agreed with your statement so much as to write it on "BARN DOORS" in "Giant-Capital-Letters"

    Would this not make xxxxx an evil false prophet and the god that sanctioned his behaviour evil and a false god?  

    was he another genocidal WarLord
    * * * YES, YES, YES * * *
    how could anyone disagree with the obvious facts
    (except for a bbc-mod man who ruins threads and dialogues with PC agenda)

    and as for the evil-God 'YHWH' ~ well, agreed He does sound very like a certain diabolical 'moon-god', but we have been through this once before haven't we smiley - erm it's just like calling the "SUSTAINER OF ALL LIFE" ~ "Mother Nature" ~ EVIL isn't it smiley - devil
    It serves absolutely no purpose except to say that ~ that's the way it is that is "THE ULTIMATE LAW" !

    But if you can't apologise for the impossible-existence and impossible-achievements of the OLdest & most hated race on the planet (15 million Jews), then i feel very sorry for a warped sense of impossible (almost supernatural) proportions ! smiley - blush

    But now for my turn on the offensive ~ can you like any of the muslims on here find me any major faults in the lives of "Jesus, Buddha, Gandhi, Dali_Lama ect etc " smiley - erm ! or any NEW-Testament verses that explicitly & contextually condone any "human-on-human hurt" when "LOVE
    even your enemies" ~ is preached (as the Very Top command 20 times) and from almost every other verse ~ en.wikipedia.org/wik... . smiley - erm

    for sake of waiting another 10,000 post's
    I'll ans for you pal = NO No & NO such verses anywhere !
    So why would anyone want to pull down a 'good' thing unless they where perhaps warped or even evil smiley - devil

    Ps ~ would love to hear of any "human-on-human hurt" verses from other scriptures esp ones "Sanctioning Murder"

    Report message10

  • Message 11

    , in reply to message 9.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Saturday, 16th October 2010

    hi trippy,

    >>> Jesus WASN'T God. I thought we'd gone through this many times over on the Christian Board???? Although you ARE right about the rest !!

    Cheers pal, i would hasten to disagree with "Jesus not being God" (even if as minor one) but at least Xtains and Hindus can (in the main) get along fine and "PEACEFULLY" ~ just like my taking a Hindu businessman to an "interfaith" church service and he is returning the 'Grace' with an invite to a Hindu-temple so i can worship Jesus there !

    whilst ignoring silly superstitions on both sides of our divide, i KNOW that i can fully trust him to be an honorable man of both his "Peaceful-faith & his-word" smiley - peacedove something sadly missing from a certain faith that condones appeasement, deception & LYING (google ~ Hudna, Kitman & taqqiya) ! smiley - yikes

    Report message11

  • Message 12

    , in reply to message 10.

    Posted by Exioce (U6719061) on Saturday, 16th October 2010

    you are * * * impossible * * * (but still likeable with it ), I have agreed with your statement so much as to write it on "BARN DOORS" in "Giant-Capital-Letters" 

    If you agreed with the statement why did you feel the need to "xxxxx" out the name of Moses? That's just more obfuscation. If you are truly honest, why don't you just say clear as day that MOSES was a genocidal warlord and YAHWEH being the sanctioner of Moses' behaviour was evil? Is there something wrong with your body or character that prevents you giving honest clear answers?

    and as for the evil-God 'YHWH' ~ well, agreed He does sound very like a certain diabolical 'moon-god', but we have been through this once before haven't we erm it's just like calling the "SUSTAINER OF ALL LIFE" ~ "Mother Nature" ~ EVIL isn't it devil It serves absolutely no purpose except to say that ~ that's the way it is that is "THE ULTIMATE LAW" ! 

    This is exactly what Muslims say about Allah. They say their god is the ultimate law and can do whatever he wants.

    But if you can't apologise for the impossible-existence and impossible-achievements of the OLdest & most hated race on the planet (15 million Jews), then i feel very sorry for a warped sense of impossible (almost supernatural) proportions ! 

    Why would I apologise for the achievements and existence of the Jews? Were they bad? Am I responsible? Are you capable of reason rather than being an emotional screamy-shouty sort all the time?

    Report message12

  • Message 13

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by U14603687 (U14603687) on Saturday, 16th October 2010

    Religions not only teach murder but many of these religions whose founders were murderers allegedly carrying out the dictate of the idol they were worshiping.

    It will be impossible to purge religion from our society and culture by banning religion. We have tried that with alcohol and other drugs but failed. We have had to resort to regulating these drugs and making their use of and sale to anyone under 21 a crime.

    We also tax alcohol production and its consumption very heavily. We must do the same for religion.

    We must remove all tax deductions for religious contributions, we must tax religious contributions, we must prohibit the practice by and the teaching of religion to anyone under the age of 21.

    Report message13

  • Message 14

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by sirderam (U9072147) on Saturday, 16th October 2010

    zebbs

    So now that we are even more en-lightened than in Jesus' time, do we still have any religions that actually Preach Murder ?

    Satanism ~ Perhaps ? 



    I'm not sure that Satanism really has much of a case to answer when you consider the evidence.

    Killings: God vs Satan.

    God = ~ 2.5 million.

    Satan = 10
    (And those 10 only with the active connivance, not to say actual encouragement, of God.)

    dwindlinginunbelief....

    Report message14

  • Message 15

    , in reply to message 12.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Saturday, 16th October 2010

    hi Exioce,

    >>> If you agreed with the statement why did you feel the need to "xxxxx" out the name of xxxx?

    sorry but been out most of the day. But with my messages deleted for even "Trouser Coughing" and i'm surprised that yours is still showing ~ so again a big "YES" xxxx was a genocidal maniac (so nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more names then)

    Evil-moon-god-allah again "Yes" but allah is (seemingly often like the O.T. YHWH) a distant and impersonal god ~ Where as Jesus (my God-In Person) stripped all the "human-on-Human" violence etc and showed us that YaHWeH had a deep personal interest in mankind on an individual level in exactly the same way Buddha did ~ ie; Leaving a heavenly palace, becoming a Bast*rd (when Bstrds where so despised) and mixing with the "lowest of the lowest" to suffer in every way imaginable that they suffered ~ so whether one belives in a deity or not it is very clear in the N.T. that an Almighty-Creator-God "allegedly" became Personal smiley - peacedove

    Whatever your take on the Jews (0.05% of world pop) their story and achievements in every field of adventure are at the extremes of almost every spectrum ~ This (like our own very existence) is an "impossibility" except to say that it happened !

    ~ so sorry that you felt obliged to miss out and depart from the main threads topic but you have still yet to find me any explicit, contextual condoning of "human on human violence" from Xtian, buddhist, Hindu or 'progressive-Judaisms' scriptures (or their greatest Prophets) ~ so why all the noise about religion in general when it's so obvious that there is only one "Real-Bully in the Playground" smiley - erm

    Report message15

  • Message 16

    , in reply to message 13.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Saturday, 16th October 2010

    imamo,

    >>> We must remove all tax deductions for religious contributions, we must tax religious contributions, we must prohibit the practice by and the teaching of religion to anyone under the age of 21.

    so you want to remove all tax breaks from the "Salvation Army" then smiley - doh
    Only the Biggest provider of social-care outside of the gov't staffed mainly and paid for mainly by volunteers


    nothing against "Peaceful Atheism" pal, but you are definitely so blindedly-biased , that your rational thought has become one brick short of a lego-set smiley - doh smiley - doh

    so besides the Crusades, Inquisitions witch-burnings etc (which aren't even taught in the xtian NEW-Testament) can you tell me just why anyone would want to pull-down such a force for the positive

    Christians have been persecuted for 2000 years, from “being thrown to the lions”, crucified upside-down, boiled, skinned alive, burned alive, beheaded, tortured, massacred etc, but you can't keep a “good-man down” ~ “Jesus and His kingdom” ~ (The Church) created the Worlds first

    Mass Education for 'the peasants' (via Sunday Schools (Matt19:20) )
    First orphanages, (Matt19:20)
    Help for the Poor & destitute & travelers ( Luke 10:30)
    First hospitals. (via monasteries) (Mark 6v56)
    First Modern Nurses (Florence Nightingale etc) (Acts 5v16)
    First Modern Medicines (via monasteries) (Matthew 4:23 )
    Soup kitchens and hostels for the homeless (Luke 16:21 / Matthew 8:20 )
    95% of all charities that cater for those from all creeds and beliefs (Matt 5:43 )
    Ending Slavery (In the World excepting Arabia). (Luke 4:18 )
    Finding of the RSPCA and respect for all animals (and creation(Mark 16:15 )).
    Helped greatly in creating “the Welfare state” (John 13:34 )
    Ending poverty by giving people help and emotional support.(Matthew 11:30 )
    Rescuing Prostitutes & drunkards (Salvation Army ~ John 8:3 )
    Christian influence on 90% of all produced music; blues, rock, pop, classics.(all of the Psalms esp chp 150),(Matt26v30), (Acts 16v35), (Ephesians 5:19), (Colossians 3:16)
    Massive Christian influence on the arts, literature, poetry & sciences.
    Those nations that are the most longstanding Christian are by far the most successful.
    + 10,000 other positive verses that never ever preach human-on-human violence !
    Esp setting the standards of the Golden Rule ~ “love your neighbor as yourself”.  


    And unless you can find me those missing N.T. "Hate-Verses" (or such hate-verses from other scriptures) i would keep to slagging off Islam ~ the only real "BULLY in The Playground" ! smiley - yikes

    Report message16

  • Message 17

    , in reply to message 15.

    Posted by Exioce (U6719061) on Sunday, 17th October 2010

    But with my messages deleted for even "Trouser Coughing" and i'm surprised that yours is still showing ~ so again a big "YES" xxxx was a genocidal maniac (so nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more names then)

    Evil-moon-god-allah again "Yes" 


    Hey look, your post wasn't modded for calling Allah evil, and it won't therefore be modded for calling anyone else evil. So let's not make any further excuses now and let's answer the question clearly.

    Are Moses and his god Yahweh evil for respectively committing and sanctioning the murder and rape of the people who lived in what became Israel?

    Report message17

  • Message 18

    , in reply to message 17.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 19

    , in reply to message 18.

    Posted by Exioce (U6719061) on Sunday, 17th October 2010

    1) Moses was a certain Genocidal-WarLord (but not a complete & total pervert like the other Mo) ~ so a big "YES" 

    1. Oh but the OT does paint him and his successors as perverts given that they took the women and girls of other nations as sex slaves. Do you think they limited themselves to 18 years and older? No, they took every girl regardless of age.

    2) a lot more difficult theologically
    ~ Yahweh is God and therefore can do what HE likes ~ He's the ultimate LAW (just like mother nature, you can complain all you like but it's not going to change a thing unless you DO something about it). is HE evil in Killing Millions ?? Ans = "YES", 


    This is exactly what the Muslims say to excuse their own god, being the ultimate law. However, since you do say now that Yahweh is evil in killing millions, and you believe Jesus and Yahweh are the same person, doesn't that tarnish Jesus? Adolf Hitler could have had a change of heart and changed his name, but he would still have acted in great evil, wouldn't he?

    BUT
    but, He has killed far fewer than ~ "Mankind has himself Killed and abused MAN", Mankind is by far the most greedy, brutal, dirtiest & most destructive animal on that planet. And if you can wipe out 1 billion (insignificant) PARASITES with a bottle of bleach ~ then why do you throw such a judgment at Yahweh ? 


    The same could be argued about Allah, and is.

    Report message19

  • Message 20

    , in reply to message 19.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Sunday, 17th October 2010

    hi Exioce,

    desperately late for a church appointment that i haven't had time to read your last,

    will try and treply before the end of the day

    ps ~ is this an xtian or islamic mssge board smiley - erm

    Report message20

  • Message 21

    , in reply to message 19.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Sunday, 17th October 2010

    hi Exioce,

    could you please ask the bbc-mod man to stop ruining our 'reasonable' conversation ?

    As for PERVERT topic "NO"; i strongly believe & think that most people would judge Mo1 and Mo2 quite separable. Simply because there is no evidence of child-rape, slave-rape or war-booty rape attributed to either Mo1 (or Mariam his only wife), who only wanted to forward his tribe in every aspect available, 2000yrs prior to Mo2 ~ the other was a certain pervert (which has been recorded for all to see) who even glorified and boasted openly about his failings as if they where somehow ok ~ & so sadly many millions have since emulated him smiley - sadface

    reply split ... more coming in case of mods... smiley - ok

    Report message21

  • Message 22

    , in reply to message 19.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Sunday, 17th October 2010

    hi Exioce,

    ~ My writing that God is evil was a mistake, Please rewind and forgive my hasty reply which should have read;

    In using YOUR definitions of murder then obviously = "YES"
    But when considered that they may be (Perhaps) taken to biblical Paradise then what would you call that smiley - erm
    Also the Numbers that God has killed is TINY, when compared to the destruction that man has done throughout all the centuries (esp the last).

    You also purposely missed my point on "if Jesus is God incarnate" which goes a very long way in re-addressing the problem of a non-caring God. This "b*st*rd-homeless-pauper" has suffered as bad as anyone gets and He wasn't even guilty ~ & Why ~ so He can affiliate with us and empathies with our struggles ! ~ ultimate power incorruptible even in crucification & death

    This 'personal God' in most of the O.Testament and certainly in all of the New-Testament is the complete opposite of the "distant moon-god-allah" ~ i fail to make your (or even any such) connection between Yahweh & allah

    ps ~ wouldn't it have been far nicer if Hitler had changed his mind half-way through smiley - devil smiley - erm

    Report message22

  • Message 23

    , in reply to message 22.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Sunday, 17th October 2010

    hi Exioce,


    How can anyone miss the point that the Old-Testament was "Split into TWO" between 0-700 bc

    * NewTestament ~ took all the nicey poisitve bits
    (and just look at Christendom eventually flourished in green & pleasant lands)

    * Koran ~ took all the nasty O.T. negative oppressions
    (and just look at how the Urmagh has suffered in every square inch of its deserts)

    I yet fail to see any posting of any Bad-Negative NewTestament (or other scriptures) which condone "human on Human hurt" ~ when it is so very clear that the opposite is preached "love thy neighbour , even & esp your enemies"
    but you constantly skirt around these POSITIVES as posted ~ are you taking lessons from Julie in obfuscation or can we please get back to topic & have some "Love & Hate" verses and which scriptures they originate from smiley - erm

    ps ~ just a reminder that the Topic was "do some religions teach murder ? "
    and if so ~ which ones and where ?

    Report message23

  • Message 24

    , in reply to message 23.

    Posted by sirderam (U9072147) on Sunday, 17th October 2010

    Matthew 10:34
    Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

    Luke 22:36
    He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    Report message24

  • Message 25

    , in reply to message 23.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Sunday, 17th October 2010

    hi sirderam,


    >> Matthew 10:34
    Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

    >> Luke 22:36
    He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.  


    i think that you need to READ the earlier question first as I did SPECIFICALLY ask for
    1) CONTEXTUALLY ~
    a) Matthew 10 ~ www.biblegateway.com...
    b) Luke 22 ~ www.biblegateway.com...

    2) EXPLICITLY ~ "telling us to hurt others" when it is so obvious that NewTestament verse the "Golden Rule"s ~ is cited as the top command over twenty times and is the basis behind almost every other vers ~ en.wikipedia.org/wik...

    So U failed miserably on both accounts ~ NEXT try plse ! smiley - ok

    Report message25

  • Message 26

    , in reply to message 25.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Sunday, 17th October 2010

    hey a success at last a scripture that actually advocates Murder


    Surah 8: AL-ANFAL (SPOILS OF WAR, BOOTY)
    012: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will INSTIL TERROR into the hearts of the Unbelievers: * * * SMITE ye above their necks * * * * and smite all their finger-tips off them."

    in all its contextual gory-Glory here (in many translations)
    www.usc.edu/schools/... 


    Hundreds more like this from the Koran, but do we have them from the other 'HOLY' scriptures ??? smiley - erm

    Report message26

  • Message 27

    , in reply to message 25.

    Posted by sirderam (U9072147) on Sunday, 17th October 2010

    zebbs

    So U failed miserably on both accounts 

    Don't see why. Swords are clearly the very symbol of violence. He said He brought a sword (and even if that was only a figure of speech it still betokens violence) and advised his followers to acquire real swords if they didn't have enough. Clearly He intended to do violence.

    But I'm not going to get into a theology (or fairytaleology as I think of it) debate. I don't really care how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

    There are lies, damned lies and theology.


    Report message27

  • Message 28

    , in reply to message 27.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Sunday, 17th October 2010

    HI sirderam,

    No you didn't as i said ~ "explicitly and contextually"

    Swords can be used from anything to opening cans to digging with etc,
    BUT if you read the context (as posted) Jesus is referring to "The Sword of the Spirit"

    Report message28

  • Message 29

    , in reply to message 28.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Monday, 18th October 2010

    hi sirderam,

    So no "Direct or Contextual" N.T. verses to even hurt others (when over 20 times the very top command is explicitly quoted as 'the Golden Rule" ~ en.wikipedia.org/wik....

    and as for your reasoning / daft confusions on "SWORDS" & "the 'Sword 'of the Holy-Spirit" all i can suggest is that you are comparing

    "the Jesus Army" ~ with the SAS
    "the Salvation Army" ~ with US Navy Seals

    Neither could be further from the truth, The 'highly respected' Sally-Ann's fight is with rescuing Alcoholics, Prostitutes, Destitute's and Marginalized from the evils of our society ~ not a "SWORD" in sight except the "peaceful weapons" (swords & weapons) we use to combat EVIL ~ and if you think that this is wrong then i sincerely pray for your soul pal smiley - peacedove

    Now can anyone else provide me with any New-Testament verses that preach any "human on Human hurt" ~ when its obvious that the very opposite is true smiley - erm

    verses that teach, preach, condone "violence and Murder" from other religions are also most welcome smiley - ok

    Report message29

  • Message 30

    , in reply to message 28.

    Posted by sirderam (U9072147) on Monday, 18th October 2010

    Zebbs

    Your Msge 28

    I think you are being deliberately disingenuous to the point of lying. The sword is the universal symbol for war and violence. They may be used to open tins and dig holes in the ground but, historically speaking, few armies have chosen to arm themselves with tin openers or spades if swords, or their modern equivalents, were available. No, the phrase “come with a sword” clearly betokens violence of one sort or another.

    I note you did not even try to answer the second quotation. When Jesus told his followers to sell their clothes to buy swords it was clearly real swords he had in mind, not ‘swords of the spirit’. He only withdrew the instruction when it was made clear to him that they already had enough real swords to do whatever violence he was planning. Unless, of course, you suggest that he wanted to use the swords to open tins? Perhaps the last supper was tinned? Or maybe he wanted to do a bit of digging and planting, some weeding perhaps, in the Garden of Gethsemane?

    Get real.

    Report message30

  • Message 31

    , in reply to message 29.

    Posted by sirderam (U9072147) on Monday, 18th October 2010

    Zebbs
    M29

    ... i sincerely pray for your soul pal  

    Thanks.

    You pray for me, I'll think for you.

    Report message31

  • Message 32

    , in reply to message 30.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Monday, 18th October 2010

    hi sideram,

    i said "Contextually and Explicitly"

    <quote><quote>
    Contextually
    ------------------
    >>> LUKE22:36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a * * * SWORD * * * , sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

    38The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two * * * SWORDS." ~ "THAT IS ENOUGH," he replied.

    52Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with * * * SWORDS * * * and clubs?
    www.biblegateway.com...

    </quote>

    Contextually ~ same scene different version of events
    -------------------
    Matt26:52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, * * * "FOR ALL WHO LIVE BY THE SWORD WILL DIE BY THE SWORD. * * * . Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
    www.biblegateway.com...
    </quote> </quote>

    Furthermore, if Christ's very top command of "LOVE each other as i have died for even my enemies " ~ (as repeated over 20 times) ~ just how do you even begin to construe your two verses as contextual smiley - erm

    So not only have you chosen TWO verses out of TEN-THOUSAND ~ which are Contextually incorrect, you have also failed to provide even ONE explicit N.T. command to "hurt others" smiley - erm

    Report message32

  • Message 33

    , in reply to message 32.

    Posted by sirderam (U9072147) on Monday, 18th October 2010

    zebbs

    Yet again you have failed to explain why He advised His followers to buy real swords if he was not planning violence.

    As for "Put your sword back in its place," perhaps he realised he was 'outgunned' and decided to try to talk his way out of trouble.

    Report message33

  • Message 34

    , in reply to message 33.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Monday, 18th October 2010

    hi sirderam,

    look at the very obvious basics, no where else does 'the Prince of Peace'
    (or any other N.T. writer) recommend "hurting others" and Jesus never ever explicitly or contextually allures to 'hurting others' ~ 10,000 N.T. peace loving verses show this;

    So what is Jesus alluring to here ?
    the Mesage version
    36-37He said, "This is different. Get ready for trouble. Look to what you'll need; there are difficult times ahead. Pawn your coat and get a sword. What was written in Scripture, 'He was lumped in with the criminals,' gets its final meaning in me. Everything written about me is now coming to a conclusion."

    38They said, "Look, Master, two swords!" ~ But he said, "Enough of that; no more sword talk!" www.biblegateway.com... 


    look up the very same event in other Gospel-depictions;
    Don't bother fighting as I can call on "legions of Angels to defend Me" !

    He was most certainly out-gunned (just as most xtians are today and in the past) ~ Just like Gandhi ~ He never fired a shot but gave the Worlds biggest Super-Power such a "kick in the Slats" by invoking Peaceful methods !

    i know it seems impossible but "Somehow Peace always eventually triumph's over EVIL" ~ & eventually even over Islam unless they get their hands on an a-bomb ! smiley - yikes

    Report message34

  • Message 35

    , in reply to message 34.

    Posted by sirderam (U9072147) on Monday, 18th October 2010

    Zebbs

    36-37He said, "This is different. Get ready for trouble. Look to what you'll need; there are difficult times ahead. Pawn your coat and get a sword. What was written in Scripture, 'He was lumped in with the criminals,' gets its final meaning in me. Everything written about me is now coming to a conclusion." 

    So ‘turn the other cheek’ or ‘get a sword’? Which is it?


    38They said, "Look, Master, two swords!" ~ But he said, "Enough of that; no more sword talk!" www.biblegateway.com...  

    So why did HE mention, indeed, advise getting swords in the first place if he didn’t want them to talk about them or have them or, presumably, use them?

    Report message35

  • Message 36

    , in reply to message 35.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Monday, 18th October 2010

    hi sirderam,

    just as i can embrace "peace-loving atheism" (and all peaceful religions).
    i would ask you to please put any biases aside and look at it all in 'perspectives' ~ with ten-thousand peace / vs two debatable verses
    Rhetorically ~ What do you truely think ???

    Despite the use of the term "Sword of the Holy-Spirit"
    You may want to look at all the other military terms the New Testament uses in the terms of a "Spiritual Battle" ~ "Armour of God" ~ en.wikipedia.org/wik...

    also consider Generals & Majors in the salvation-ARMY ???
    even take a look at our hymn-books over the thousands of years ?

    Shalom~

    Report message36

  • Message 37

    , in reply to message 36.

    Posted by sirderam (U9072147) on Monday, 18th October 2010

    Hi Zebbs

    I take it from your last message that you essentially concede the point that these two passages, especially the second one, could reasonably be construed as an exhortation to do violence?

    Good. And I am quite willing to say that I basically agree that Christianity is, certainly when compared to Islam, the religion of peace. Even as an atheist, there is much that I admire and agree with in Christian philosophy (as opposed to religion, obviously) and if some other religions were to adopt its core philosophy the world would be a better place.

    But as a Christian you really shouldn't be engaging in 'My God is better than your God' triumphalism or oneupmanship. Let your actions and the way you live your life speak for you.

    And, yes, even as an atheist, I always put a coin or two into the collection box of the Sally Ann - I know what good work they do.

    Report message37

  • Message 38

    , in reply to message 37.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Monday, 18th October 2010

    hi sirderam,

    >>> And, yes, even as an atheist, I always put a coin or two into the collection box of the Sally Ann - I know what good work they do.

    Perhaps stupidly not taking your advice, but admiring your great generosity towards my belief's, i thank you (from Aunt-Sally herself) and will pray for you to my 'God~Jesus' ~ "the Prince of Peace" smiley - winkeye

    Shalom~ smiley - peacedove

    Report message38

  • Message 39

    , in reply to message 38.

    Posted by sirderam (U9072147) on Monday, 18th October 2010

    Hi Zebbs

    ... and will pray for you ... 

    And this time, as opposed to my M31, I will happily accept your kind offer to pray for me as I believe that it is now made in the true spirit of Christianity.

    Peace and best wishes to you and yours.

    Report message39

  • Message 40

    , in reply to message 39.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Monday, 18th October 2010

    i suppose i should have titled the thread
    ~ Does Islam teach Murder in it's scriptures ? ~

    but that wouldn't have lasted longer than the lifespan of a wine-gum with the bbc-mods on the prowl

    So back to topic Which religion(s) actually teach murder ? smiley - erm

    Report message40

  • Message 41

    , in reply to message 40.

    Posted by Rosebud (U8715362) on Tuesday, 19th October 2010

    zebbs

    www.youtube.com/watc...

    Julie

    Report message41

  • Message 42

    , in reply to message 41.

    Posted by Rosebud (U8715362) on Tuesday, 19th October 2010

    zebbs
    there are many diverse interpretations of scriptures whether Christian or Islamic.

    IMO you need to see that.

    Not ALL Christians see peace in the Bible.

    Not ALL Muslims see peace in the Quran.

    It doesn't condemn all those Christians or Muslims that DO see peace and love in their scriptures.


    You only seem to judge what you think Islam is against just the NT on it's own, but many Christians wouldn't agree with you separating it from the OT.

    www.youtube.com/watc...

    Julie

    Report message42

  • Message 43

    , in reply to message 41.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Tuesday, 19th October 2010

    Wow Julie,

    i don't know why i even respond to your
    posts, but is this the VERY-Best that you can provide smiley - doh

    * Contextually incorrect & often verses 4-5 times repeated, smiley - erm
    * prophesies of what muslims will do to their own family members (honour killings),
    * using illustrations in calling Pharisees hypocrites for not tithing ,

    * saying just one human life is worth more than 200 Samarian swine (diabetes?), ending animal sacrifice

    ~ Surmising in all, advocating that "Vengeance belongs to GOD alone", & definately NO contextual and explicit condoning of any "Human on Human Hurt".

    back of the class plse
    and don't come back until you can explain away some of the Contextually~Explicit Koranic teachings on Hurting, even Murdering others smiley - devil

    Report message43

  • Message 44

    , in reply to message 43.

    Posted by Rosebud (U8715362) on Tuesday, 19th October 2010

    zebbs do you accept that not ALL christians interpret the bible as you do?

    That there are Christians that use their bible to hurt people and justify attacking others?

    Or do you deny that this happens?

    Julie

    Report message44

  • Message 45

    , in reply to message 44.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Tuesday, 19th October 2010

    Julie,

    is this a finally an admission of defeat in that you still can't find so N.T. verses smiley - laugh

    i may give an ans. depending on your reply to Q2 ~ why does the koran have so many "Hate-Verses" explicitly condoning "hurting others" ?

    ~ even Murdering them Sura8 v12: www.usc.edu/schools/...

    Report message45

  • Message 46

    , in reply to message 43.

    Posted by Rosebud (U8715362) on Tuesday, 19th October 2010


    Message posted by zebbs

    * prophesies of what muslims will do to their own family members (honour killings),
     


    That verse is only translated that way by you. It is not an accepted interpretation of it.

    If it is please provide a link in any of the major mainstream churches in the UK that are making that claim.

    You cannot invent your own interpretations, and expect everyone else to accept them.

    You don't respond to me posts zebbs, you just reply with some nonsense that no Christian I know believes, that has come from your own thoughts.

    Replying is not the same as responding.

    Julie

    Report message46

  • Message 47

    , in reply to message 46.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Tuesday, 19th October 2010

    Julie,

    yet more obfuscation and diversions < biggy yawn >

    1. My interpretation maybe, but in no way does it sanction or allow "humans to hurt others" does it

    2. Also it goes quite against the "grain" of the N.T.'s very top command repeated over twenty times "love even your enemies" smiley - erm

    so let's look at it ion context shall we
    Matt10:17"Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. 18On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

    21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

    24"A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub (ie; Jesus called Satan) then how much more the members of his household!

    whole chp here ~ www.biblegateway.com...
     


    Quite clearly prophesying ~ that it is Xtians who are going to suffer at the hands of their own family members ~ Islamic Honour Killings Prophesied for all to see ~ unless you can CONTEXTUALLY interpret otherwise smiley - erm a big Well done Julie smiley - ok

    might even make an ex-muslim out of you yet smiley - biggrin

    Report message47

  • Message 48

    , in reply to message 45.

    Posted by Rosebud (U8715362) on Tuesday, 19th October 2010


    Message posted by zebbs

    Julie,

    is this a finally an admission of defeat in that you still can't find so N.T. verses

    i may give an ans. depending on your reply to Q2 ~ why does the koran have so many "Hate-Verses" explicitly condoning "hurting others" ?


     


    I suggest you sort out your wonky understanding of the Bible first, before you try and take on the Quran.

    If you really think that the verse about setting family members against each other was a prediction of Muslim behaviour towards members of their own family, then IMO you need to discuss that with your local Vicar, because I think you seriously need help.

    It's a bit like Christians have used the Bible to justify Slavery ( and some still do)............ you are using it to promote hatred............ your own hatred of Islam (and Judaism).

    I have found you NT verses that SOME Christians use to justify hurting others. You are using the NT to promote hatred of Islam and Muslims, even using verses of it to imagine it is discussing them personally.

    Most Christians wouldn't justify using it to promote hatred of others in this way either, which is why I think you need to discuss it with someone who does know what they are on about. ( ie a vicar )

    Julie




    Julie

    Report message48

  • Message 49

    , in reply to message 48.

    Posted by sebbs (U14426833) on Tuesday, 19th October 2010

    Julie,

    after reading the passage IN-CONTEXT it is so obvious that it is xtians who are going to be persecuted, suffer and be betrayed that i believe that you would describe a "blue sky" as "bling with red, yellow and brown dots and spots" if it served your purposes !

    Tell me was Enyd Blightons ~ "Famous Five" as being about a bunch of 5 desperate War-Crinals ~ en.wikipedia.org/wik...29

    Your posts defy all logic, reason & sensibilities
    Now
    1. those proper N.T. verses please
    2. explanations for hundreds of Koranic "Hate verses"

    or in every-sense of the N.T. verses, i just cannot help you in your Journey to Islamic-Hell smiley - devil

    Report message49

  • Message 50

    , in reply to message 49.

    Posted by Rosebud (U8715362) on Tuesday, 19th October 2010

    zebbs

    So far you have described Mohammed as the anti christ ................ that you think that Islam vs Christianity = Evil vs Good

    That NT verses relating to discord among family members relates to honour killings ( which you seem to see as an Islamic specific thing rather than cultural).

    That armageddon will be started by Muslims with an atomic bomb.

    Your posts are full of it.


    after reading the passage IN-CONTEXT it is so obvious that it is xtians who are going to be persecuted, suffer and be betrayed that i believe that you would describe a "blue sky" as "bling with red, yellow and brown dots and spots" if it served your purposes !

    Tell me was Enyd Blightons ~ "Famous Five" as being about a bunch of 5 desperate War-Crinals ~ en.wikipedia.org/wik...

     


    For someone who claims to follow a religion of peace that commands you to love your enemy you do have a very negative attitude towards Islam and Muslims.

    You fail to see that Christianity and Christians are not perfect either.

    In every group of people there are those that behave badly, they don't represent everyone else.

    You condemn ALL Muslims on the actions of a few.

    You can do that to Christianity too, because they also have those that do interpret things negatively.

    But IMO you just don't seem to get it. ( That Christianity has some of those people too )


    Your posts defy all logic, reason & sensibilities

     


    They certainly defy your, logic, reason & senibilities but hey your posts have that effect on me too smiley - winkeye

    Julie









    Report message50

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