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Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 1.
Posted by DaddyDA (U6715142) on Monday, 1st March 2010
Psychologists are universal in their view that 'guilt' is one of the most disabling human emotions that we can experience.
It's not that there is no reason for this emotion & it clearly serves a purpose but how far should Christians go in 'laying guilt trips' on those who have fallen short of that which Christ requires?Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 2
Posted by BashfulAnthony (U10740638) on Monday, 1st March 2010
far should Christians go in 'laying guilt trips' on those who have fallen short of that which Christ requires?
I don't think the "average" Christian does any such thing. Perhaps you could expand, and I don't mean silly Papal Doctrines and the like?Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 3
Posted by smittims (U1158597) on Monday, 1st March 2010
Surely it's a central tenet of traditional Christian belief that 'all', not just the 'average' Christian, have fallen short and sinned, and need to repent regularly.
Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 4
Posted by wigginhall (U13785634) on Monday, 1st March 2010
There's an interesting debate here, which is a bit different from what you are saying - is guilt universal in human beings, and therefore the Church provides a useful service in helping us to deal with it, in the form of penitence and so on, or does the Church actually increase our guilt, and make us morbid?
Or maybe, both?Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 5
Posted by BashfulAnthony (U10740638) on Monday, 1st March 2010
Surely it's a central tenet of traditional Christian belief that 'all', not just the 'average' Christian, have fallen short and sinned, and need to repent regularly.
Yes it was, but modern thinkers say differently. It is a personal thing. I ask forgiveness for sins, I don't tell others what to do.Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 6
Posted by Sir Bernard Quatermass (U1732830) on Monday, 1st March 2010
Become an atheist. We cannot sin against a god we do not believe in, so no guilt trips.
god on a guilt trip:
Genesis 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 7
Posted by Qetta (U14361539) on Monday, 1st March 2010
Catholics seem to major on guilt more than those of other doctrines, I suspect.
Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 8
Posted by lazylil (U2866318) on Monday, 1st March 2010
M1
Psychologists are universal in their view that 'guilt' is one of the most disabling human emotions that we can experience.
Do you think that "guilt" is why we so many "atheists" on here?Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 9
Posted by SvitlanaStar (U1951052) on Monday, 1st March 2010
Some denominations and theological viewpoints focus more on 'sin' than others - and they tend to have particular sins that they talk about more earnestly. Others take the view that, if Jesus has paid the price, if God forgives, what's there to feel guilty about?
Maybe it's a 'salvation by works' versus 'salvation by faith' distinction.
Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 10
Posted by trippymonkey (U6090156) on Monday, 1st March 2010
I wonder if all here are aware that 'GUILT' is the only emotion that's NOT part of our NATURAL make-up & is given from an outside source.
NickLink to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 11
Posted by oldpierate (U14016891) on Tuesday, 2nd March 2010
Do you think that "guilt" is why we so many "atheists" on here?
Do you think could that in please English? Do you get your notions from the bible?Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 12
Posted by foolfodder (U2562526) on Tuesday, 2nd March 2010
Hi wigginhall,
There's an interesting debate here, which is a bit different from what you are saying - is guilt universal in human beings, and therefore the Church provides a useful service in helping us to deal with it, in the form of penitence and so on, or does the Church actually increase our guilt, and make us morbid?
Or maybe, both?
I'd say guilt is natural in human beings, but the Churches seem to try to make us feel guilty about things that we have no reason to feel guilty about.
It's been suggested that Churches make us feel guilty in these ways so that we have to go back to them to get that guilt assuaged, thereby increasing our dependence on them in our lives.Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 13
Posted by chunstinator3 (U14259213) on Tuesday, 2nd March 2010
smittims
Surely it's a central tenet of traditional Christian belief that 'all', not just the 'average' Christian, have fallen short and sinned, and need to repent regularly.
Yes but I don't think it is a common belief that all will
repent.
In any case the experience today is the secular majority telling christians how they should repent of at least their hypocrisy rather than the traffic going in the opposite direction.
My own opinion is that all are convicted of sin at a deep level but one response is to blame all and sundry and believe that 'it's the others' rather than working out why the notion of being sinful actually troubles us in a post christian society.
I'm afraid Dawkins exemplifies an extreme approach by turning the whole thing on its head.
For him religion is the cause of all evil rather than an attempt to confront it head on.Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 14
Posted by wigginhall (U13785634) on Tuesday, 2nd March 2010
chuns
That is probably a distortion of Richard Dawkins' position. I don't think he would say that all evil springs from religion, but certainly he would say that religions are a major source of evil, I think.
But what do atheists mean by 'evil'? Surely, in his terms, religion shows evolutionary adaptiveness in various ways?Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 15
Posted by chunstinator3 (U14259213) on Tuesday, 2nd March 2010
Wiggs
He did have a TV show a while back entitled
'...The root of all evil?'
Did he conclude that religion was? or wasn't?
or was there no conclusion as such?Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 16
Posted by DaddyDA (U6715142) on Tuesday, 2nd March 2010
I'm not all that sure of the direction of the traffic of which you speak.
Hypocrisy is a universal truth & people will always get a buzz out of pointing it out.
It makes a first calss News Story to find that some worthy Evangelical Preacher has run off with the Church funds & is having an affair with a married Woman.
I doubt if much has chnged since the time of Christ.
as for this 'conviction of sin', I am not so sure what people should make of these feelings in modern times. The word is old fashioned & carries with it currently less famaliar implications.
Take, for example, the doctrine of 'original sin', seen in the light of modern knwledge this seems absurd. Whilst it may have value as a metaphor, it is no more than a rather cumbersome way of exoressing guilt...Which was where we started.
I would agree that there is little point in projecting the problem out onto others. However, it is equally dangerous for us to accept solutions like 'the Devil made me do.' Such a denial of personal responsibilty is seldom accepted by the Courts.Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 17
Posted by wigginhall (U13785634) on Tuesday, 2nd March 2010
chuns
I think he didn't like the title, which the TV station wanted. It is nonsense, if you think about it. Yet I think there are a few atheists who will say that without religion, everything would be hunky-dory. Wow, naive, or what?
Some of the biggest villains I have known were definitely not Christians!Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 18
Posted by wigginhall (U13785634) on Tuesday, 2nd March 2010
DaddyDA
There are some interesting modern attempts to give a sense of original sin. I have been in a sort of seminar group doing that, and for example, we came up with the idea that sin is to do with unconsciousness.
Of course, the really obvious idea is to do with selfishness. But perhaps using the word 'sin' is not helpful today?
I know it is used in church ritual - 'I have sinned through my own fault'. But to go up to somebody at work, and say 'you are a sinner' sounds pretty weird and condemning.Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 19
Posted by chunstinator3 (U14259213) on Tuesday, 2nd March 2010
Guilt? How is it explained in reductionism, naturalism, materialism, or positivism?
....away.....most likely.Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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Message 20
Posted by Goblin4 (U3622470) on Tuesday, 2nd March 2010
Surely the modern religion is the Cult of Global Warming.
You have the High Priests represented by the Scientists (Good Gods), and the Devil's Disciples ( bAD gODS) represented by Scientists with an opposite view.
There is the congregation -the masses.
The Original Sin is global warming caused by the selfishness of mankind and greed.
If we do not alter our ways then it will be the end of the world with lots of disasters, diseases and other catastrophes on the way.
We can gain forgiveness and save the world by believing in the the great Climate change prophets and contributing lots of money to those endeavouring to save the world through Green Taxes.
Trouble is that we have seen this dish before when it was served up by the church. Different names, different time scale, but essentially the same - GIVE US YOUR MONEY or you'll go to hell.Link to this forum: Guilt Trip - Should The Church lay it On?
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