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You are here > Radio 4 message boards > Deleted > Should deaf parents be allowed to have a deaf child?

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Should deaf parents be allowed to have a deaf child?

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Message 1 - posted by Auntie Molly (was mollygee) (U4008898) , Mar 9, 2008

www.guardian.co.uk/s...

The parents see their deafness not as a disability but as being part of a linguistic minority, which is all well and good, but do they have the right to force their child to be part of that minority whether they like it or not?
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Message 2 - posted by ElizaShaw (U10750867) , Mar 9, 2008

No. Any more than a wheelchair using parent should be allowed to amputate their baby's feet, so they, too, can join the non-ambulatory minority. Or if I had a child that was telepathic, or psychic, or whatever, and I was not, but I wanted that ability removed from the child, or ensured that no child of mine had it.

It's a vile, vile notion, and the parents concerned should be ashamed of themselves.

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Message 3 - posted by postmankeith (U2354252) , Mar 9, 2008

No.
Next question?

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Message 4 - posted by Octopus (U2440869) , Mar 9, 2008

This subject has cropped up a few times, and my answer remains that any attempt to introduce a disability into a human (at whatever stage of existence) should be disallowed.

But, from the article:
'Paula is now in her early 40s,' says Lichy. 'Our first daughter was born naturally, but due to Paula's age, we may need IVF for the second.' The trouble is that, according to clause 14/4/9 of the bill, the selection of a hearing child through IVF is permitted, but embryos found to have deafness genes will be automatically discarded.

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In other words they do not want to 'alter' anything just choose to reject healthy embryos. This seems to be a different question than the 'altering' one: whether it is an individual's choice to implant whichever of her 'children' she wishes, or none.

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Message 5 - posted by sesley (U4024157) , Mar 9, 2008

do we hearing so called normal people have a right to force our culture and language on people who have their own culture and language, after all thats what all the politcial correctness people go on about people not being repsected from other cultures other lands, so why are deaf people to be-littled and dismissed of rights because they don't want to have to fit into our hearing people way of life, Deaf people and language is a relevelvant as a hearing persons language, why do they have to be forced and discriminated to be other wise,i'd like you to try argue this case on bbc ouch and see what response you would get

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Message 6 - posted by Octopus (U2440869) , Mar 9, 2008

sesley, does that apply to 'altering' already existing embryos or children, to make them deaf?

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Message 7 - posted by ElizaShaw (U10750867) , Mar 9, 2008

Deafness is not a culture per se, it is a culture that has arisen purely in response to a physical disability. Deafness is disability because it is the LACK of an ability - ie, the ability to hear.

If 'all' people were, say, telepathic, then a lack of telepathy would be a disability. If 'all' people could see byond the visible spectrum ,then those who could only see within the visible spectrum would have a disability.

It is simply wicked to deliberately make a child that lacks the 'normal range' of human abilities, just so its parents can feel 'happier' about it. It's like saying that a girl that has been castrated, so she never feels sexual pleasure, having had her clitoris removed in FGM, should be perfectly acceptable, because her similarly castrated mother feels 'happier' having a castrated daughter.

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Message 8 - posted by sesley (U4024157) , Mar 9, 2008

no purposely selecting a child to be deaf is as wrong as a designer blue eyed blonde perfect child,but i do believe that deaf people have a right to be respected for having their own language .

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Message 9 - posted by nezumiuk (U11197304) , Mar 9, 2008

Yes but restoring hearing (eg via cochlear implants) is not without risks. Deaf parents may decide (viewing deafness positively) that the op is not worth the risks. Seems fair enough to me.

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Message 10 - posted by loudtanyas (U11014801) , Mar 10, 2008

There is no reason why a hearing child should not learn both lip-reading and sign language. I think it is unethical, if there is an opportunity to implant a child fully equipped with all senses, to deliberately select a child who will have hearing difficulties. Who can say how a child will handle this problem? Of course we should always integrate deaf people into society and make sure that deaf children get all the opportunities available to the others. But these are different issues. I think there is too much credence given to the "rights" of parents against the interests of children already.

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Message 11 - posted by AlecMac (U2367670) , Mar 10, 2008

This issue keeps coming up. I suppose it’s in part due to the well defined ‘deaf culture’ that many hard of hearing belong to.

I think many of the replies here fundamentally misunderstand the situation.

First of all they are not ‘forcing their child to be deaf’ and they not mutilating healthy babies. The embryos produced by IVF could all become children, some deaf some not. In this type of case your not engineering a child your choosing a child, and for the deaf child the choice would have been to be born deaf, or not born at all. Who are we to choose which live and which don’t!!!!!!!!

It makes me uncomfortable to think that you can only select the ones that meet a certain criteria to live, and the rest get killed. I think a system where as long as the embryo looks viable everything else is left to chance would make a mountain of ethical and moral dilemmas disappear.

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Message 12 - posted by hermeline (U4006263) , Mar 10, 2008

I can see both sides to this. I can understand why the couple want a deaf baby. I'm sure that the child will have a loving caring family who will equip him/her for a successful adulthood, deaf or not.

But somehow it doesn't seem right. But then, maybe I don't know enough about deafness and what it's like to be deaf.

I don't really agree with any sort of selection process with babies - I think it would be better if we just accepted what comes along.

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Message 13 - posted by sesley (U4024157) , Mar 10, 2008

listening to the lady on JV how today, was intersting, she came across as confident human being that despite her deafness still lead a full quality of life just because she can't Beethoven or other babble doesn't mean she feels she has missed out or was dissadvantaged by, she is a cultrual memeber of the deaf club she is with, and all she and other deaf people are asking no demanding is to be viewed as equal human beings along with gay people,black people and any other group of human beings that are discrimated against because they are different.Thye want to be independent,they want to drive,get married have jobs,travel everything else humans in a free society enjoy. and why can't they?

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Message 14 - posted by Auntie Molly (was mollygee) (U4008898) , Mar 10, 2008

Nobody's saying they can't Sesley. The question is whether deaf parents should be allowed to choose to have a deaf child via pre-implantation diagnosis/IVF.

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Message 15 - posted by sthilda (U3612164) , Mar 10, 2008

I think the headlines are as ususal misleading,they are not seeking to make a child deaf,rather in the event they have successful embryos,they do not want to be forced to reject an embryo on the basis that it is likely to be deaf...aftre all the have a deaf daughter and do not wish to give her the message that it is better than she was not born...why should they choose an embryo that may not be a sfit for implantation but its not deaf so its the one that is available?

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Message 16 - posted by ElizaShaw (U10750867) , Mar 10, 2008

Are IVF embroyos routinely checked for 'genetic imperfections' (eg, such as deafness)? I thought they were only checked for viability, as I think not all the embryos obtained from the process are always of sufficiently good quality (from the point of view of being likely to 'take' so to speak) for either implantation or freezing.

But I was under the impression - perhaps erroneous - that they were not otherwise genetically checked in any particular way.

Have they actually discovered a 'gene for deafness' then, if the debate is whether deaf parents should specifically select a 'deaf embryo'?

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Message 17 - posted by machinewarrior1 (U11178335) , Mar 10, 2008

I think this "need" for the deaf to have deaf children is very selfcentred and cruel.

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Message 18 - posted by susie (U2345418) , Mar 10, 2008

<,they are not seeking to make a child deaf,rather in the event they have successful embryos,they do not want to be forced to reject an embryo on the basis that it is likely to be deaf.>

If they had he choice between a deaf embryo and a hearing one though, would they be justified in choosing the deaf one in preference to a hearing one?

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Message 19 - posted by cuttlefishlove (U11223197) , Mar 10, 2008

Yeah I agreee with you AlecMac...they shouldn't test for deafness at all. It's hardly life threatening. What does it say about us hearing people if we think that some types of people are better than others? We should be thinking about how society can accomodate all its members on an equal footing rather than thinking about how we can reduce the diversity of the human race.
Disability is only defined by what characteristics are disadvantages in the current environment.
If the environment can be changed then we should make that accomodation rather than selecting types of human that fit our current environment.

It is a shame that some people can't see that it might be a positive thing for a child to grow up surrounded by people that are like her, and use a language that is perfectly suited to her rather than assuming it is a selfish wish on the parents part.

Being born deaf means that you won't miss music in any real sense just as no hearing person 'misses' being psychic or seeing beyond the normal colour spectrum.

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Message 20 - posted by ElizaShaw (U10750867) , Mar 10, 2008

Being born deaf means that you won't miss music in any real sense just as no hearing person 'misses' being psychic or seeing beyond the normal colour spectrum.

***

But do you have the right to knowingly prevent your child from being able to do just that if they had the chance? AND if that were the 'statistical norm' for the vast, vast majority of the human race.

And I don't see that it's much of an argument to say 'deaf people don't miss music' - because once you HAVE heard music, you know that it IS something that is very precious to the human race.

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