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Panorama Hillsborough program

Messages: 1 - 39 of 39
  • Message 1. 

    Posted by John Jones (U14743519) on Monday, 20th May 2013

    The BBC exhibited typical pro-Thatcher, pro-political, bias in its depiction of the Hillsborough disaster. In usual BBC style Thatcher came off well here, as it showed her saying that the full facts of Hillsborough would be investigated, ignoring the true facts of what she actually thought.

    I stopped trusting the BBC a long time ago, and Panorama's sanitized depiction of Thatcher in hillsborough, of all places, is yet another nail in its coffin.

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  • Message 2

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by thedogcody (U14659366) ** on Monday, 20th May 2013

    How did your form all those opinions?

    How do you know what Mrs T thought?

    In what way is the BBC pro-Thatcher ?

    Any comments on the actual programme?

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  • Message 3

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Onslow The Cat (U13672446) on Monday, 20th May 2013

    The BBC exhibited typical pro-Thatcher, pro-political, bias in its depiction of the Hillsborough disaster. 

    Surely the reverse? Oh well no doubt somebody (or the Mods) will close this thread down soon.

    smiley - blackcat

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  • Message 4

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by EggOnAStilt (U7111730) on Monday, 20th May 2013

    Opinion or do you have some proof to back your statement up.

    Cue mods.

    smiley - elvis

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  • Message 5

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by sqwerty (U8310964) on Monday, 20th May 2013

    I thought that, at the very least, the BBC dedicating its Panorama slot to primetime, and for a full hour, was worthy of something. There have been similar documentaries made over the years, by C4 for instance, and a great film by Jimmy McGovern.

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  • Message 6

    , in reply to message 3.

    Posted by jak (U15732045) on Monday, 20th May 2013

    well done bbc and shame on the police....it was sickening to see the pain the victims families had to endure..we all know that there is no police accountability in this country, but this is systemic corruption and criminality by those who should be protecting the public. i just hope those reponsible are held to account.

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  • Message 7

    , in reply to message 6.

    Posted by old git at 70 (U14213449) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    well done bbc and shame on the police....it was sickening to see the pain the victims families had to endure..we all know that there is no police accountability in this country, but this is systemic corruption and criminality by those who should be protecting the public. i just hope those reponsible are held to account.  as far as I can see it was the upper ranks of police who made the decisions who were to blame, many lower ranks did great work to help the injured. Don't tar them all with the same brush.

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  • Message 8

    , in reply to message 7.

    Posted by germinator (U13411914) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    I missed this programme so will wait with interest to read Portly's verdict.

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  • Message 9

    , in reply to message 6.

    Posted by kebabmon (U2476748) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    well done bbc and shame on the police....it was sickening to see the pain the victims families had to endure..we all know that there is no police accountability in this country, but this is systemic corruption and criminality by those who should be protecting the public. i just hope those reponsible are held to account.  I couldn't agree more.

    The words used where 'establishment cover-up' - its time to name and shame all those involved in this disgusting act of self-preservation and blame shifting.

    Unfortunately we actually live in a country akin to North Korea with an 'elite' that is above the laws that the general public have to abide by. Nobody will be brought to justice or held accountable.

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  • Message 10

    , in reply to message 9.

    Posted by Portly (U1381981) ** on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    Many people want to believe that Margaret Thatcher played a part in the Hillsborough cover-up. And people believe what they want to believe. That's why people will criticise the excellent "Panorama" programme for not implicating her.

    Perhaps to satisfy such critics, the programme-makes should have forged a letter in Thatcher's fair hand proving that she was deeply involved in the cover-up.

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  • Message 11

    , in reply to message 10.

    Posted by longmemoryintv (U15477482) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    Dear Mr/Mrs Portly - perhaps instead of your usual automatic reflex action of jumping in to defend any supposed criticism of your beloved, you might bring yourself to (perish the thought) visit the TV crit in the Guardian, where, for a bit of balance, there's criticism of Jack Straw and Tony Blair.

    The Hillsborough Panorama programme was compiled by a mature and experienced BBC journalist, who happened to have been present at the match as an ordinary Liverpool fan and spectator. It was remarkably well and soberly done, and thank goodness brought back memories of properly professional Panorama programmes of old.

    Margaret Thatcher, as Prime Minister, was shown visiting the ground after the disaster. It's what Priime Ministers do. Brings to mind the Duke of Windsor saying 'something must be done for these people' when surveying the unemployed in the thirties. The tragedy is that nothing much has been done to expose what really happened at Hillsborough up until now, despite endless enquiries and illuminating television documentaries from the BBC, Channel 4 and by Yorkshire TV's First Tuesday in 1990.

    I find it ridiculous and offensive that you joke about programme-makers forging letters supposedly to implicate Thatcher in a cover up when we know what was done by the police to suppress their own colleagues' evidence.

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  • Message 12

    , in reply to message 11.

    Posted by Portly (U1381981) ** on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    I find it ridiculous and offensive that you joke about programme-makers forging letters supposedly to implicate Thatcher in a cover up when we know what was done by the police to suppress their own colleagues' evidence.  

    It makes life so much simpler to turn other posters into stereotypes, and then attack the stereotype. As I (a former labour voter) spent the 1980's tramping the streets of Liverpool promoting the SDP, I can hardly be described as a Thatcherite.

    What do care about very much is fairness. I feel the attempts to implicate Thatcher in the cover-up are deeply unfair because there isn't a shred of evidence that she was in any way involved.

    I often hear remarks that so-and-so told Thatcher this or that, suggesting that as she had been lied to, she must have been implicated. But there isn't a shred of evidence that her own opinion was influenced by the things that others may have told her.

    I thought that the documentary was well-produced and contained a certain amount of new information together with many things we already knew. I think that with each effort like this, we get a bit closer to the whole truth.

    I was a classmate of Dr. John Ashton, who featured in the programme. smiley - smiley

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  • Message 13

    , in reply to message 12.

    Posted by tireecoll (U3120935) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    BBC pro Thatcher eh? Can it be that long ago Auntie was criticised for its supposed lack of reverence when Mrs. T died? hash tag heads I win tails you lose.

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  • Message 14

    , in reply to message 12.

    Posted by longmemoryintv (U15477482) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    Honestly, I have never heard any attempts to implicate Thatcher in the cover up and unlike you I have never heard gossip that so-and-so told Thatcher this-or-that.

    Also, unlike the first poster, I didn't detect any refusal by the BBC to implicate her, I don't think it was even material to the programme. I objected to your throwaway remark about programme-makers forging letters for political ends.

    I think it was extremely interesting to hear Dr. John Ashton's contribution.

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  • Message 15

    , in reply to message 13.

    Posted by maestaf (U14145694) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    The BBC should be congratulated for showing this excellent programme in prime time. If the BBC did more of this kind of programme and fewer cookery shows or police dramas, it might begin to make the case that there is still a need for a licence fee.

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  • Message 16

    , in reply to message 13.

    Posted by hollybeau (U13700692) ** on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    It was an excellent programme and I saw no biase by the BBC, just a very good investigation which revealed the extent of the cover up at the time, shameful!

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  • Message 17

    , in reply to message 16.

    Posted by Testcard (U1164920) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    A very well produced programme that got to the heart of what happened on that fateful day. This should be the benchmark for future Panorama investigations.

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  • Message 18

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Annie-Lou (U4502268) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    The BBC exhibited typical pro-Thatcher, pro-political, bias in its depiction of the Hillsborough disaster. In usual BBC style Thatcher came off well here, as it showed her saying that the full facts of Hillsborough would be investigated, ignoring the true facts of what she actually thought.

    I stopped trusting the BBC a long time ago, and Panorama's sanitized depiction of Thatcher in hillsborough, of all places, is yet another nail in its coffin. 
    Surely if your allegation were true the programme would never have been made in the first place?

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  • Message 19

    , in reply to message 9.

    Posted by Annie-Lou (U4502268) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    "Unfortunately we actually live in a country akin to North Korea with an 'elite' that is above the laws that the general public have to abide by."

    You know you really damage your own case by saying things this ludicrous. Thank goodness we have Portly for some calm good sense and balance (to say nothing of manners!)

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  • Message 20

    , in reply to message 19.

    Posted by kebabmon (U2476748) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    "Unfortunately we actually live in a country akin to North Korea with an 'elite' that is above the laws that the general public have to abide by."

    You know you really damage your own case by saying things this ludicrous. Thank goodness we have Portly for some calm good sense and balance (to say nothing of manners!) 
    lol... ok... my analogy maybe a bit OTT, but Hillsborough isn't the only 'hidden' scandal on the books at the moment. Ivory towers and all that. Obviously, it is easy to conduct transparent inquiries and be judgemental with the benefit of '20 20 hindsight'. The people of Liverpool knew the truth, so why couldn't the so called 'establishment' uncover it at the time or soon after the event?

    The results of the Iraq Inquiry are delayed, so it may yet get worse before it gets better.

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  • Message 21

    , in reply to message 7.

    Posted by jak (U15732045) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    your right to say it seems the upper ranks were the leaders of this corruption, but what example is that to lead...also there are good police officers but it seems they have to conform to a corupt system or become isolated..well done to those officers who tried to do the right thing....it would seem they are a rare breed ..

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  • Message 22

    , in reply to message 20.

    Posted by old git at 70 (U14213449) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    "Unfortunately we actually live in a country akin to North Korea with an 'elite' that is above the laws that the general public have to abide by."

    You know you really damage your own case by saying things this ludicrous. Thank goodness we have Portly for some calm good sense and balance (to say nothing of manners!) 
    lol... ok... my analogy maybe a bit OTT, but Hillsborough isn't the only 'hidden' scandal on the books at the moment. Ivory towers and all that. Obviously, it is easy to conduct transparent inquiries and be judgemental with the benefit of '20 20 hindsight'. The people of Liverpool knew the truth, so why couldn't the so called 'establishment' uncover it at the time or soon after the event?

    The results of the Iraq Inquiry are delayed, so it may yet get worse before it gets better. 
    What I don't understand is that yes the Police were wrong to open the barriers to let the Fans in, but they did not drive them in . Surely some off the blame must go to those fans who kept pushing forward. the media makes them out to be blameless, but those who kept up the push to get in must bear some responsibility.

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  • Message 23

    , in reply to message 22.

    Posted by Prophet Tenebrae (U5995226) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    None of that, Old Git.

    You're using facts and logic to come to a nuanced conclusion of events, rather than merely drawing a facile conclusion with arbitrary lines of fault drawn to confirm pre-existing biases and that just isn't on.

    We'll have no accurate but complex story here, just meaningless overgeneralisation and arbitrary partitioning of blame!

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  • Message 24

    , in reply to message 23.

    Posted by zelda (U2012536) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    None of that, Old Git.

    You're using facts and logic to come to a nuanced conclusion of events, rather than merely drawing a facile conclusion with arbitrary lines of fault drawn to confirm pre-existing biases and that just isn't on.

    We'll have no accurate but complex story here, just meaningless overgeneralisation and arbitrary partitioning of blame! 
    Blimey! Now you've started something!

    I saw a bit of the programme but remember watching the actual game back then. It was a dreadful day and I think that events just over took everybody. There had never been such a disaster and I genuinely think that nobody really knew what was going on for a while. Whilst the police cover up was a disgrace afterwards, on the film you can clearly see 'ordinary' officers comforting and helping people - with so many people milling around all over the place could the ambulances have gone into the ground safely? There are so many questions that however many enquiries are held, they will probably never get the answers to.

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  • Message 25

    , in reply to message 24.

    Posted by Portly (U1381981) ** on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    There had never been such a disaster  

    There was a disaster almost as serious in 1971 when 66 football supporters lost their lives in a crush at the Glasgow Rangers' Ibrox Stadium. In those days there were often incidents when large crowds were channeled into spaces too small to contain them. As a Liverpool supporter I was involved in one or two myself, which fortunately for me did not end badly. At that time, the authorities did not concern themselves overmuch over the welfare of football supporters, but instead treated them as a threat to be controlled.

    The likes of "old git" who posted above don't have a clue about the dynamics of large crowds. The people at the back of the crowd don't push but they exert a gentle pressure. When this gentle pressure is multiplied by the sheer numbers present, it can produce a serious crush at the front without the people at the back knowing anything about it.

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  • Message 26

    , in reply to message 25.

    Posted by seaDoctor (U4509975) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    Just seen the programme on iPlayer.

    Thank you BBC for showing a clear, unbiased report that highlighted the insidiousness of a cover up that blamed the fans, when they weren't to blame.

    Interesting that the people who started the cover up refused to be interviewed.

    Also, Anne Williams who died last month, could show there was great dignity and composure when talking about how her 15 year old son died.

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  • Message 27

    , in reply to message 25.

    Posted by shytalker (U15033137) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    There had never been such a disaster  

    There was a disaster almost as serious in 1971 when 66 football supporters lost their lives in a crush at the Glasgow Rangers' Ibrox Stadium. In those days there were often incidents when large crowds were channeled into spaces too small to contain them. As a Liverpool supporter I was involved in one or two myself, which fortunately for me did not end badly. At that time, the authorities did not concern themselves overmuch over the welfare of football supporters, but instead treated them as a threat to be controlled.

    The likes of "old git" who posted above don't have a clue about the dynamics of large crowds. The people at the back of the crowd don't push but they exert a gentle pressure. When this gentle pressure is multiplied by the sheer numbers present, it can produce a serious crush at the front without the people at the back knowing anything about it. 
    I don't suppose that we are allowed to say that a lot of them did not have tickets and that some of them had consumed a modicum of alcohol,as usual it was the ones who got there on time and were behaving themselves who suffered.

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  • Message 28

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    Posted by Prophet Tenebrae (U5995226) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    I don't suppose that we are allowed to say that a lot of them did not have tickets and that some of them had consumed a modicum of alcohol,as usual it was the ones who got there on time and were behaving themselves who suffered. 
    There you go, trying to complicate a facile over-generalisation with arbitrary attributions of blame with pointless things like facts and logic, perspective and nuance again.

    I'm getting fed up of this - the truth is always black and white and there are no shades of grey (certainly not 50).

    The police were entirely responsible and everyone else was a blameless individual who had no free will and absolutely NO culpability for any of their actions. Even the suggestion that this story might be more complex than "police bad" is in poor taste!

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  • Message 29

    , in reply to message 27.

    Posted by monic1511 (U1768751) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    Shytalker
    not sure which stadium crush you are attempting to tar with the "some of them had consumed a modicum of alcohol" allegation.

    The Ibrox disaster was the result of people falling on a stairwell, Hillsborough seems to be as a result of people being funnelled into a small enclosed space without considering if there is room there, which was why the commentator mentioned the spaces in the side pens.

    I can vaguely recall that there had been reports of a crush at Hillsborough before at the same end of the ground.

    This was a good and fair report by Panoramma in my opinion, it mentioned the street bobbies who were presurised to change their stories. At the same time reporting the senior commanders lies & spin.

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  • Message 30

    , in reply to message 27.

    Posted by Portly (U1381981) ** on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    I don't suppose that we are allowed to say that a lot of them did not have tickets and that some of them had consumed a modicum of alcohol,as usual it was the ones who got there on time and were behaving themselves who suffered.  

    No you are not allowed to say any of that.

    You are merely repeating the lies that were told by the South Yorkshire Police in an attempt to deflect responsibility from themselves.

    Have you been out of the country during the last twelve months?

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  • Message 31

    , in reply to message 27.

    Posted by cthulhu1 (U15722781) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    Of course you can just carry on believing the same old myth and hearsay put forward by the police sources and papers like the Scum. I can only think you did not watch this programme or are K McKenzie..

    Anyway this was an excellent sober, unbiased programme that simply laid out that facts as we now know them.

    It was very ironic given the general unproven allegation about Mrs T, to see the scribbled note from the ever caring Tony Blair. The simple word "Why" on that memo was something I has never seen or head about before.

    This was a return to what Panorama used to do well, no flashy graphics or flashy images, just telling a solid news story.

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  • Message 32

    , in reply to message 27.

    Posted by Vevila (U14202422) on Tuesday, 21st May 2013

    A lot got there on time but it was an absolute nightmare getting into the Stadium.

    I had a ticket and wasn't drunk, I was in the crowd waiting to get into the stadium to show my ticket and can remember a policeman on horseback trying to manage the crowd . As far as I could see no Police (other than the one on horseback) were there to at least direct people to where they should go, no organisation at all.

    I walked back up to the top of Leppings Lane as it was too crowded and then saw the gates open. The crowd disappeared and I walked in not showing my ticket and straight down the first tunnel. A bloke who was red faced and could hardly breathe grabbed hold of me and told me to that I would die if I walked into the enclosure , we followed him out and he left the ground.

    We ended up at the edge of the ground near to where the blue commentary box was, there were quite a few people there and we could hardly see what was happening. Supporters who managed to get out told us how bad it was and were in tears. We left as soon as we could.

    Some people had been drinking and were in a happy mood, like supporters of any other team, they do that at football matches.

    I don't know how many didn't have tickets, I never got to show mine.

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  • Message 33

    , in reply to message 17.

    Posted by Peta (U24) on Wednesday, 22nd May 2013

    A very well produced programme that got to the heart of what happened on that fateful day. This should be the benchmark for future Panorama investigations.  Thank you.

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  • Message 34

    , in reply to message 20.

    Posted by Annie-Lou (U4502268) on Wednesday, 22nd May 2013

    "Unfortunately we actually live in a country akin to North Korea with an 'elite' that is above the laws that the general public have to abide by."

    You know you really damage your own case by saying things this ludicrous. Thank goodness we have Portly for some calm good sense and balance (to say nothing of manners!) 
    lol... ok... my analogy maybe a bit OTT, but Hillsborough isn't the only 'hidden' scandal on the books at the moment. Ivory towers and all that. Obviously, it is easy to conduct transparent inquiries and be judgemental with the benefit of '20 20 hindsight'. The people of Liverpool knew the truth, so why couldn't the so called 'establishment' uncover it at the time or soon after the event?

    The results of the Iraq Inquiry are delayed, so it may yet get worse before it gets better. 
    Hidden? It has been picked over in more detail than any other tragedy ever to happen in this country. It has been the subject of innumerable documentaries and articles (by our excellent free press, something a bit lacking in North Korea) and many inquiries and court cases. To say nothing of featuring in several dramas (mainly courtesy of Mr McGoven).
    Funny definition of "hidden" smiley - erm

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  • Message 35

    , in reply to message 34.

    Posted by Andy (U14048329) on Wednesday, 22nd May 2013

    "Unfortunately we actually live in a country akin to North Korea with an 'elite' that is above the laws that the general public have to abide by."

    You know you really damage your own case by saying things this ludicrous. Thank goodness we have Portly for some calm good sense and balance (to say nothing of manners!) 
    lol... ok... my analogy maybe a bit OTT, but Hillsborough isn't the only 'hidden' scandal on the books at the moment. Ivory towers and all that. Obviously, it is easy to conduct transparent inquiries and be judgemental with the benefit of '20 20 hindsight'. The people of Liverpool knew the truth, so why couldn't the so called 'establishment' uncover it at the time or soon after the event?

    The results of the Iraq Inquiry are delayed, so it may yet get worse before it gets better. 
    Hidden? It has been picked over in more detail than any other tragedy ever to happen in this country. It has been the subject of innumerable documentaries and articles (by our excellent free press, something a bit lacking in North Korea) and many inquiries and court cases. To say nothing of featuring in several dramas (mainly courtesy of Mr McGoven).
    Funny definition of "hidden" smiley - erm 
    Yes...well....I found myself thinking "Another programme about Hillsborough? Surely there isn't anything more to come out".

    Then I watched it....and it turns out there was.

    My god.....there was.....

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  • Message 36

    , in reply to message 35.

    Posted by PoochJD (U2534501) on Wednesday, 22nd May 2013

    I really enjoyed the doc on Hillsborough, and despite Shytalker's complete ignorance on the facts, the fans were absolutely NOT to blame on this! The police and the government of the time are wholly to blame here, and until the whole truth comes out - which it may well never do now, no matter what enquiries are held - this will always remain a horrible sporting tragedy that should never have happened.

    The only criticism, if any, I can lay at the documentary's door, is that it wasn't long enough. 60-minutes didn't seem enough time to go through the event, and deal with all of the issues it raised.

    I also would have liked to have seen a bit more footage from the day itself, and how it was reported on the news and in the media at the time over that weekend. (Not footage of the tragedy itself, I should say!)

    Lastly, why was no one from THE SUN interviewed, for example? I know what THE SUN did, and I know what they printed was utter lies, but I still would have liked to have seen someone grill THE SUN and ask them whether - 20-odd years later - there's been any repurcussions for them, in the way they report other similar tragedies? Why did they take what was told them, at face-value? What repurcussions were felt, when Liverpool effectively stopped stocking their paper in newsagents, stores and other shops, because of what THE SUN had printed about Liverpool fans?

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  • Message 37

    , in reply to message 36.

    Posted by hollybeau (U13700692) ** on Wednesday, 22nd May 2013

    The Sun's headline.

    “The Truth.
    Some fans picked pockets of victims
    Some fans urinated on the brave cops
    Some fans beat up PC giving kiss of life.”

    Utterly despicable and because of the lies perpetrated by the police etc, we also saw the headline "Hooligans" in Italian newspapers and on tv, where we were at the time of the accident.smiley - grr

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  • Message 38

    , in reply to message 24.

    Posted by Franky (U13761133) on Saturday, 1st June 2013

    ........There had never been such a disaster .......  Taken well out of context I admit, I suggest you look 4 years earlier, in Belgium

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  • Message 39

    , in reply to message 38.

    Posted by bootjangler (U880875) on Saturday, 1st June 2013

    ........There had never been such a disaster .......  Taken well out of context I admit, I suggest you look 4 years earlier, in Belgium  As well as a similar one (to Hillsborough) at Ibrox in 1971.

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