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Newsnight Error.

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Messages: 1 - 50 of 126
  • Message 1. 

    Posted by R Gilling (U15429207) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    Last night on Newsnight (27.09.12.) at about 23.10hrs., Jeremy Paxman, in an apparent attempt to embarrass a historian and an MP by posing a few questions about the UK - the item had been about the PM's appearance on that US chat show - referred to a list of "religious groups" including Roman Catholics, Jews and Atheists. Atheists are not a religious group.

    Report message1

  • Message 2

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by thedogcody (U14659366) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    Last night on Newsnight (27.09.12.) at about 23.10hrs., Jeremy Paxman, in an apparent attempt to embarrass a historian and an MP by posing a few questions about the UK - the item had been about the PM's appearance on that US chat show - referred to a list of "religious groups" including Roman Catholics, Jews and Atheists. Atheists are not a religious group.  As Spock would say-"fascinating"-smiley - yawn

    Report message2

  • Message 3

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Portly (U1381981) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    Atheists are not a religious group.  

    That's debatable! Many atheists are keener to talk about religion than believers. smiley - smiley

    Report message3

  • Message 4

    , in reply to message 3.

    Posted by R Gilling (U15429207) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    This may be so, but they do not adhere to any religious belief or faith and certainly do not belong to any "religious gruop."

    Report message4

  • Message 5

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by Pancho Wilkins (U1158194) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    I belong to a group that believes that the word religion is misunderstood by many believers, coming as it does from the latin " to come together , or bind "

    In so saying, I wonder if a heated debate will ensue about the real meaning of the word religion?

    Report message5

  • Message 6

    , in reply to message 5.

    Posted by thedogcody (U14659366) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    Some atheists say they are not a religion-one points out in the same was as not collecting stamps is not a hobby.

    To come back to the OP I notice that last week you spotted an error on UC-is that why you watch tv-to spot and report errors?

    Any other views on programmes?

    Report message6

  • Message 7

    , in reply to message 3.

    Posted by Essential Rabbit (U3613943) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    Atheists are not a religious group.  

    That's debatable! Many atheists are keener to talk about religion than believers. smiley - smiley 

    No, it isn't.
    Religion is the belief in any one (or more) of a multitude of deities.

    Atheism is a complete lack of belief in any of them.
    It isn't a club, or a particular group, just individuals who don't see the need for the supernatural.

    Most atheists usually only talk about religion in respose to proselytizing or religious groups claiming privilege.

    Report message7

  • Message 8

    , in reply to message 7.

    Posted by Peta (U24) on Friday, 28th September 2012


    Not all religions believe in deities.

    Report message8

  • Message 9

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Dover Soul (U14934992) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    I think - so don't shoot me - that when using the term Atheists as the name of a religious group, it means that Atheism is included when surveying Religion in the UK.

    If you look at this link to Wicki - which again don't shoot me because I know Wicki can be wrong - there is a chart giving the 2001 census. You will notice it tries to cover everything in the census thos with a Religion, those without one, etc etc.

    So, in that way, Atheists are those who when asked for their Religion gave the answer "none", which, according to the UK census of 2001, makes them a Religous group. In other words, when doing a survey of Religions in the UK there will always be a group within that Religious survey who are Athiests.

    Athiests may not believe, but they have to be grouped somewhere!



    Report message9

  • Message 10

    , in reply to message 8.

    Posted by germinator (U13411914) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    Good point Peta. I think that the word 'atheist' is overused and not particularly helpful; after all there is no special designation for those who do not believe in eg the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus or the stork that brings the babies, I prefer 'faithless'

    Report message10

  • Message 11

    , in reply to message 9.

    Posted by Dover Soul (U14934992) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    smiley - doh this link to wicki en.wikipedia.org/wik...

    Report message11

  • Message 12

    , in reply to message 5.

    Posted by R Gilling (U15429207) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    The derivation of the word "religion" is the Latin verb "religere" meaning to believe, not to come together. Ae the risk of seeming like a know-all, I studied Latin at school for several years.

    Report message12

  • Message 13

    , in reply to message 12.

    Posted by Peta (U24) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    The derivation of the word "religion" is the Latin verb "religere" meaning to believe, not to come together. Ae the risk of seeming like a know-all, I studied Latin at school for several years.  Thanks rgilling,

    Then isn't atheism a belief?

    Report message13

  • Message 14

    , in reply to message 13.

    Posted by Essential Rabbit (U3613943) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    Then isn't atheism a belief? 
    No more than having no belief in the tooth fairy is a belief.

    Report message14

  • Message 15

    , in reply to message 13.

    Posted by R Gilling (U15429207) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    I suggest that it is not. The "a" is the Latin preposition meaning "away from" or "out with" abd theism is belief in deity or feities,

    Report message15

  • Message 16

    , in reply to message 8.

    Posted by zencat (U14877400) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    Not all religions believe in deities.  
    Which ones would they be?

    We're not in the USA, by the way, so we are free to use the term "cult" in relation to organisations such as Scientology.

    Report message16

  • Message 17

    , in reply to message 5.

    Posted by zencat (U14877400) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    I belong to a group that believes that the word religion is misunderstood by many believers, coming as it does from the latin " to come together , or bind "

    In so saying, I wonder if a heated debate will ensue about the real meaning of the word religion?  

    It's not always helpful to delve too far back into a words etymology.

    In the case of religion, the current usage is related to the following definition:

    "c.1200, "state of life bound by monastic vows," also "conduct indicating a belief in a divine power," from Anglo-Fr. religiun (11c.),"

    www.etymonline.com/i...

    Report message17

  • Message 18

    , in reply to message 13.

    Posted by zencat (U14877400) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    The derivation of the word "religion" is the Latin verb "religere" meaning to believe, not to come together. Ae the risk of seeming like a know-all, I studied Latin at school for several years.  Thanks rgilling,

    Then isn't atheism a belief?  

    No, atheism is an absence of belief.

    Some dictionaries very sloppily say things like "belief that God does not exist". smiley - doh

    • Unicorns don't exist - fact.

    • The statement "god exists" requires evidence to support it. There isn't any.

    Report message18

  • Message 19

    , in reply to message 18.

    Posted by zencat (U14877400) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    • The statement "god exists" requires evidence to support it. There isn't any. 
    Which is why religious adherents have "faith", and are known as "believers".

    Report message19

  • Message 20

    , in reply to message 18.

    Posted by thedogcody (U14659366) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    This is another one of those utterly pointless thread that have nothing to do with BBC television as such and is just a debate on what words or phrases mean what

    I am sure whatever Mr Paxman said his meaning was clear-can't that just be an end to it?

    Report message20

  • Message 21

    , in reply to message 20.

    Posted by zencat (U14877400) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    This is another one of those utterly pointless thread that have nothing to do with BBC television as such and is just a debate on what words or phrases mean what

    I am sure whatever Mr Paxman said his meaning was clear-can't that just be an end to it? 

    Nobody is forcing you to read this thread.

    Report message21

  • Message 22

    , in reply to message 10.

    Posted by conion (U9432813) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    I prefer 'faithless' 

    I am a Rationalist - it's a much more accurate term.
    Concise Oxford English Dictionary.

    rationalism
    n noun
    1 the practice or principle of basing opinions and actions on reason and knowledge rather than on religious belief or emotional response.
    2 Philosophy the theory that reason rather than experience is the foundation of certainty in knowledge.

    DERIVATIVES
    rationalist noun
    rationalistic adjective
    rationalistically adverb

    Report message22

  • Message 23

    , in reply to message 22.

    Posted by zencat (U14877400) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    I prefer 'faithless' 
    I am a Rationalist  

    Not relevant in this discussion, which concerns Mr Paxman's alleged inclusion of "atheism" in a list of religions.

    Report message23

  • Message 24

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by I Forget (U15411209) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    No, you have not listened to the question properly. He didn't actually say that atheism was a religion, or that Atheism was a reigious group. He said "Classified by religious belief, what was the last group of people allowed to sit in the House of Commons?" At no point did the question call them a group of religious people. They are the class, non-believer. If you are asked to classify all people in terms of religious belief, you will find that there is one group that consists of non-believers. Last night on Newsnight (27.09.12.) at about 23.10hrs., Jeremy Paxman, in an apparent attempt to embarrass a historian and an MP by posing a few questions about the UK - the item had been about the PM's appearance on that US chat show - referred to a list of "religious groups" including Roman Catholics, Jews and Atheists. Atheists are not a religious group. 

    Report message24

  • Message 25

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by billy_bumble (U14467942) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    Last night on Newsnight (27.09.12.) at about 23.10hrs., Jeremy Paxman, in an apparent attempt to embarrass a historian and an MP by posing a few questions about the UK - the item had been about the PM's appearance on that US chat show - referred to a list of "religious groups" including Roman Catholics, Jews and Atheists. Atheists are not a religious group. 


    I can just imagine the OP screaming with glee " aha another error"

    www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mb...

    Report message25

  • Message 26

    , in reply to message 16.

    Posted by GZ (U5310554) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    Not all religions believe in deities.  
    Which ones would they be?

    We're not in the USA, by the way, so we are free to use the term "cult" in relation to organisations such as Scientology. 
    We are free to use the word "cult" to describe scientology in the US as well zencat. smiley - winkeye

    Report message26

  • Message 27

    , in reply to message 24.

    Posted by Dover Soul (U14934992) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    Thank you Mary-Anne Parsnip. I was starting to think my message 9 was invisible !!

    Report message27

  • Message 28

    , in reply to message 27.

    Posted by St Hopalong of the hairy chest (U14314874) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    www.youtube.com/watc...

    Report message28

  • Message 29

    , in reply to message 22.

    Posted by germinator (U13411914) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    Congratulations conion, I aspire to be a rationalist, but in the meantime I am quite content to carry on faithless.

    Report message29

  • Message 30

    , in reply to message 29.

    Posted by St Hopalong of the hairy chest (U14314874) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    being without emotion is to deny your humanity and is therefore not logical. No one acts purely on logic.

    Basing an ethical structure on certainty rather than experiance is a fallacy. Only through experiancing something can we come to certainty. Even when testing a theory the results come through experiance and are if those results are consistant then they can come to certainty. But that means experiancing and recording those results.....


    Everything we do is subjective, even reading this each of us will have our own subjective reaction to it.

    Report message30

  • Message 31

    , in reply to message 30.

    Posted by Pancho Wilkins (U1158194) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    Just for fun, what does the term 'religiously' mean? as in, for example...

    " He followed the instructions 'religiously'... "

    Report message31

  • Message 32

    , in reply to message 30.

    Posted by zencat (U14877400) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    being without emotion is to deny your humanity and is therefore not logical. No one acts purely on logic.

    Basing an ethical structure on certainty rather than experiance is a fallacy. Only through experiancing something can we come to certainty. Even when testing a theory the results come through experiance and are if those results are consistant then they can come to certainty. But that means experiancing and recording those results.....


    Everything we do is subjective, even reading this each of us will have our own subjective reaction to it. 

    This whole message is completely off-topic.

    Report message32

  • Message 33

    , in reply to message 24.

    Posted by zencat (U14877400) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    If you are asked to classify all people in terms of religious belief, you will find that there is one group that consists of non-believers.  
    That's debatable.

    If, for example, you had a class "makes of car", you couldn't include something which wasn't a make of car.

    A class "religious beliefs" cannot include something which is not a religious belief.

    Atheism is not a religious belief.

    Report message33

  • Message 34

    , in reply to message 32.

    Posted by St Hopalong of the hairy chest (U14314874) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    Yes it is. But then who really gives a damn on this board 90% of the time, in my opinion this whole discussion went off topic very early on.

    In fact this board exists soley for people to express their OPINIONS, their POINT OF VIEW. if people only act on logic, then why post here? It is not logical to expect an institution of this size to take any notice that we say here given that there are so many contrary opinions.

    To bring it on topic, athesim is an opinion, not a fact. Religious beliefs are opinions, not facts.

    Saying "prove there is a god" is exactly the same as saying "prove there isnt"

    Faithless sounds like a good discription.

    Report message34

  • Message 35

    , in reply to message 34.

    Posted by GZ (U5310554) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    Atheism may not be a religion per-se.

    But Atheist show up anytime there is a discussion of religion.

    And there are organised Atheist groups - who take their Atheism beyond a personal way of like and into the realm of activism.

    This activism is in the form of trying to change and/or call into question aspects of society, aspects of government, aspects of other peoples belief systems as per how they relate to organised religion.

    Thus - it makes perfect sense for Atheists to be included in topics related to religion. They may be a different type of team. But they are most certainly on the pitch and involved in the game.

    Report message35

  • Message 36

    , in reply to message 24.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 37

    , in reply to message 34.

    Posted by zencat (U14877400) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    ...in my opinion this whole discussion went off topic very early on. 
    Perhaps, but as our host, Peta, has joined in, then I think we're OK carrying on for a while.

    Report message37

  • Message 38

    , in reply to message 37.

    Posted by germinator (U13411914) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    I suspect Peta has bunked off for the weekend and will probably come and tell us to clear off and philosophise on someone else's territory, eventually.

    Report message38

  • Message 39

    , in reply to message 34.

    Posted by zencat (U14877400) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    Saying "prove there is a god" is exactly the same as saying "prove there isn't" 
    It's not the same thing at all.

    If somebody says "unicorns exist" then it's up to that person to back up that statement with some evidence.

    It's not up to me to disprove it.


    Report message39

  • Message 40

    , in reply to message 39.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 41

    , in reply to message 40.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 42

    , in reply to message 26.

    Posted by zencat (U14877400) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    Not all religions believe in deities.  
    Which ones would they be?

    We're not in the USA, by the way, so we are free to use the term "cult" in relation to organisations such as Scientology. 
    We are free to use the word "cult" to describe scientology in the US as well zencat. smiley - winkeye
     

    "Since 1993, the Internal Revenue Service in the United States has formally recognized Scientology as a religion."

    en.wikipedia.org/wik...

    Actually, I was thinking of the documentary where the British journo lost it, and described Scientology as a cult, and the member got quite threatening with him.

    However, in Britain, "Teenager faces prosecution for calling Scientology 'cult'" - that's a police prosecution, BTW!
    www.guardian.co.uk/u...

    Report message42

  • Message 43

    , in reply to message 42.

    Posted by R Gilling (U15429207) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    Not all religions believe in deities.  
    Which ones would they be?

    We're not in the USA, by the way, so we are free to use the term "cult" in relation to organisations such as Scientology. 
    We are free to use the word "cult" to describe scientology in the US as well zencat. smiley - winkeye
     

    "Since 1993, the Internal Revenue Service in the United States has formally recognized Scientology as a religion."

    en.wikipedia.org/wik...

    Actually, I was thinking of the documentary where the British journo lost it, and described Scientology as a cult, and the member got quite threatening with him.

    However, in Britain, "Teenager faces prosecution for calling Scientology 'cult'" - that's a police prosecution, BTW!
    www.guardian.co.uk/u... 
    One of the foregoing messages states that Paxman did not refer to atheists in his short quiz as a "religious group". I recall him asking. "The members of which religious group were the last to be given the right to stand for Parliament?" He then gave the answer as atheists. As other correspondents have opined, the discussion has wandered ridiculously off the point. Atheists are not a religious group.

    Report message43

  • Message 44

    , in reply to message 42.

    Posted by GZ (U5310554) on Friday, 28th September 2012


    posted by zencat

    Since 1993, the Internal Revenue Service in the United States has formally recognized Scientology as a religion.
     


    The government gives them a tax break. But that doesnt stop anyone from referring to Scientology as a cult. Lots of religions can be referred to as cults.

    I think Scientology - Dianetics is a cult. See?


    posted by zencat
    I was thinking of the documentary where the British journo lost it, and described Scientology as a cult, and the member got quite threatening with him.
     


    And this would surprise you why? smiley - smiley

    People who are members of cults dont generally realise they are in a cult - due to the brainwashing and all - so they are likely to not going to embrace being called a cult member.

    Report message44

  • Message 45

    , in reply to message 43.

    Posted by dayraven (U13717520) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    I recall him asking. "The members of which religious group were the last to be given the right to stand for Parliament?" 

    Here's the episode on iPlayer:

    www.bbc.co.uk/iplaye...

    Go to 42 minutes in, and you can see the question again. Mary-Anne Parsnip in message 24 has quoted Paxman exactly. In addition, there's a background image phrasing the question as "By religion, what was the last group allowed to sit as MPs?"

    I'm an atheist, and I don't really have a problem with either phrasing.

    Report message45

  • Message 46

    , in reply to message 45.

    Posted by Portly (U1381981) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    I had a great-uncle who was an enthusiastic atheist and he would never shut up about religion, even though the rest of the family wasn't that interested in the subject.

    I definitely consider that atheism is a religion. Richard Dawkins is their equivalent of the Archbishop of Canterbury.

    Report message46

  • Message 47

    , in reply to message 46.

    Posted by zencat (U14877400) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    I definitely consider that atheism is a religion.  
    Atheism is not a religion, by definition.

    Report message47

  • Message 48

    , in reply to message 47.

    Posted by GZ (U5310554) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    I definitely consider that atheism is a religion.  
    Atheism is not a religion, by definition.
     
    People consider things all sorts of things that they are not "by definition".

    Wouldnt you agree?

    Report message48

  • Message 49

    , in reply to message 48.

    Posted by zencat (U14877400) on Friday, 28th September 2012

    I definitely consider that atheism is a religion.  
    Atheism is not a religion, by definition.
     
    People consider things all sorts of things that they are not "by definition".

    Wouldnt you agree? 

    I would say that if you can just make words mean whatever you feel like, then language will rapidly cease to function in a meaningful way.

    This is POV, not Alice in Wonderland.

    Report message49

  • Message 50

    , in reply to message 49.

    Posted by GZ (U5310554) on Friday, 28th September 2012


    posted by zencat

    I would say that if you can just make words mean whatever you feel like, then language will rapidly cease to function in a meaningful way.
     


    Yet there are endless examples of this in the English language to disprove this.

    The other poster said that - based on their own life experiences with Atheists - they have come to the conclusion that Atheism is a religion.

    Your reply was "Atheism is not a religion, by definition."

    Well, I am sure that you could find many examples in your own personal vocabulary where you call people, places, things, groups, events, etc. by words and descriptions that they are "not by definition."


    posted by zencat
    This is POV, not Alice in Wonderland.
     


    Yes, this is Point of View - a place where people come to express their personal Point of View.

    And in many people's personal Point of View, the consider Atheism to be a religion unto itself.

    Usually based upon the way that Atheists try and force their Atheist beliefs onto people.

    Which is the exact example the other poster used.





    This is POV, not Alice in Wonderland.

    Report message50

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