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Dr Who v Sherlock Holmes

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Messages: 51 - 93 of 93
  • Message 51

    , in reply to message 48.

    Posted by tony ingram (U14880461) on Monday, 23rd January 2012

    <quote postid='111503664'><quote postid='111502241'>Meaning?</quote>Meaning it's still aimed at children.</quote><quote postid='11150Meaning it's still aimed at children.</quote>No, it isn't. It has always been aimed at a family audience, all ages, and has generally been moving away from the younger deemographic since about 1970. You clearly don't know much about the history of the series.

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  • Message 52

    , in reply to message 51.

    Posted by Sir Lancelot Prat (U15047173) on Monday, 23rd January 2012

    You clearly don't know much about the history of the series.  That's a bit unfair. I don't know anything about the history of the series.

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  • Message 53

    , in reply to message 52.

    Posted by cricket-Angel Tucker (U3382697) on Monday, 23rd January 2012

    smiley - laugh

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  • Message 54

    , in reply to message 52.

    Posted by tony ingram (U14880461) on Monday, 23rd January 2012

    You clearly don't know much about the history of the series.  That's a bit unfair. I don't know anything about the history of the series.   Then why make pronouncements on who it's aimed at? The series was originally commissioned as a show to bridge the early evening childrens slot and the evening programming, keeping the kids (and providing some educational content in the early historical stories) but drawing in the adults who would then hopefully stay for the evening's entertainment. It was produced by Series & Serials, not by the Children's Dept, and by 1970 it had effectively been upgraded to try to attract an older audience (this was when Jon Pertwee took over). By 1976, it was clearly beng aimed primarily at older kids and adults (Producer Philip Hinchcliffe stated at the time that he would consider it irresponsible to let a child watch it alone) and by 1981 they were trying to make it more of a solid sci-fi show rather than than SF/Fantasy (which had crept in in the previous couple of years) and appealing to a lot of students and hardcore sci-fi fans. Since the relaunch in 2005, it's been estimated that less than 20% of the viewers are children, though they're still an important part of the audience since it is, as it was originally, intended to keep the entire family watching. Sadly, Russell T Davies I think overestimated the importance of the younger audience and tried too hard to be all things to all men (and women) rather than remembering that he was making a sci-fi series with a primarily adult audience, but that is what it is and always has been.

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  • Message 55

    , in reply to message 39.

    Posted by 4th Dimension Wanderer (U1461416) on Monday, 23rd January 2012

    The Bidmead era of Doctor Who was by far the worst in the programme's 49 history - in my opinion of course.

    Every week ANOTHER planet full of dull men with beards. The plot of Logopolis is nonsensical an insult to the great Tom Baker who after starring in greats like City of Death, Weng Chiang, Seeds of Doom - has to bow out in this turgid mess. 
    Would you prefer he bowed out during the likes of Horns of Nimon, Creature from the Pit, Destiny of the Daleks or Underworld - Those are turgid messes!

    1979 is bizarre in being the highest rated season ever while being one of the worst (City of Death aside).

    The Graham Williams era (under pressure from above) got rid of the very best elements of Hinchcliffe's era and Tom Baker was allowed to go OTT, e.g. "oh, my everything".

    Thankfully JNT came in and calmed him down a bit and the stories got better (although the costumes got worse - question marks everywhere, celery and the outfit poor Colin Baker had to endure).

    Report message5

  • Message 56

    , in reply to message 55.

    Posted by tony ingram (U14880461) on Monday, 23rd January 2012

    There's nothing that bizarre about the apparent discrepancy between the quality of the stories and the ratings in 1979. That season basically did very well out of the fact that ITV were on strike for over two months at the time; by the time the strike was over, people had gotten back into the habit of watching Doctor Who, despite the fact that what they were being treated to were stories like 'The Creature from the Pit'.

    Report message6

  • Message 57

    , in reply to message 50.

    Posted by Ross Quinn (U14407020) on Monday, 23rd January 2012

    He is a mixture of all the previous 'new' doctors rather than his own doctor.

    His look is definitely Tennant
    His 'intensity' is Ecclestone
    His 'chemistry' is definitely a rehash of Rose and the Doctor

    Report message7

  • Message 58

    , in reply to message 57.

    Posted by tony ingram (U14880461) on Monday, 23rd January 2012

    He is a mixture of all the previous 'new' doctors rather than his own doctor.

    His look is definitely Tennant
    His 'intensity' is Ecclestone
    His 'chemistry' is definitely a rehash of Rose and the Doctor 
    To an extent, every Doctor since Colin Baker has channeled elements of previous Doctors but I certainly don't see any of the comparisons you're suggesting. His look is nothing like Tennant (since when did Tennant go for the 'nutty professor' look?), I have no idea what you mean by chemistry in this context and Eccleston did not have a monopoly on intensity. If Smith reminds me of any previous Doctors in particular, I'd have said he was closer to Troughton with a touch of Sylvester McCoy.

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  • Message 59

    , in reply to message 58.

    Posted by Ross Quinn (U14407020) on Monday, 23rd January 2012

    I seriously just can't stand Matt Smith, anything I've seen him in he has ruined.

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  • Message 60

    , in reply to message 59.

    Posted by tony ingram (U14880461) on Monday, 23rd January 2012

    I can't understand that. I think he's a pretty good actor, myself.

    Report message10

  • Message 61

    , in reply to message 59.

    Posted by OldAbe (U14533900) on Monday, 23rd January 2012

    I seriously just can't stand Matt Smith, anything I've seen him in he has ruined.  Hi Ross - we differ on this. Matt is easily my favourite of the latest Who incarnations and quite possibly tops Troughton as my all time fave.

    Report message11

  • Message 62

    , in reply to message 61.

    Posted by St Hopalong of the hairy chest (U14314874) on Monday, 23rd January 2012

    Matt is my least favourite for the New Who but that is not because of his acting abilities but because he's been written a bit weaker. There are moments when he is able to act to his ability but not enough.

    I actually enjoyed Sylvestor McCoy as the Dr but again it was the weak scripts and set's that ruined him as the Dr.

    When it came to actual acting Tristan , I mean, Davidson was one of the weakest.

    Report message12

  • Message 63

    , in reply to message 62.

    Posted by tony ingram (U14880461) on Monday, 23rd January 2012

    Matt is my least favourite for the New Who but that is not because of his acting abilities but because he's been written a bit weaker. There are moments when he is able to act to his ability but not enough.

    I actually enjoyed Sylvestor McCoy as the Dr but again it was the weak scripts and set's that ruined him as the Dr.

    When it came to actual acting Tristan , I mean, Davidson was one of the weakest.

     
    I don't see any weakness in Matt's performance and I can't really see it in Davison's either (it's Davison BTW, not Davidson). I suspect these two simply aren't playing interpretations of the chartacter that you personally like, but then, each Doctor really has to be different from his immediate predecessor so they can't all play the part the same way. I agree with you about McCoy, though I think his last season was fantastic. Just a shame it was a bit too late.

    Report message13

  • Message 64

    , in reply to message 63.

    Posted by St Hopalong of the hairy chest (U14314874) on Monday, 23rd January 2012

    Some of that about Davison is true, I couldnt shake his having been in It shouldnt happen to a vet.

    I think Matt is a good actor, just that he hasnt had such great moments, there have been a few but not as many as Tennant had.

    The Girl Who waited was the best acted one so far in my opinion.

    The best speech so far was him in Stonehenge to the spaceships

    www.youtube.com/watc...


    www.youtube.com/watc...

    One of my favourites as well, there were just not enough of them to show Matt off ot his best

    Report message14

  • Message 65

    , in reply to message 64.

    Posted by Martyn (U14949330) on Monday, 23rd January 2012

    You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. 

    Absolutely no problem with you disagreeing with my opinion, but don't you dare accuse me (or anyone else for that matter) of having no idea what I'm talking about. It shows a distinct lack of class and shows you up for having no respect whatsoever for someone else's opinion, just because it happens to be different to your own. I guess in the world of 'tony ingram' the only opinion that matters is that of 'tony ingram' and everyone else is wrong.

    Bidmead's Doctor Who was far from dull; the 1981 season was everything I thought Doctor Who needed to be at that time, and everything it hadn't been for years under the stewardship of Graham Williams, who turned it into something just one step removed from pantomime, and as I recall most Who fans loved it. 

    Bidmead's Who sucked all the fun out of a show that should never ever treat itself too seriously and while I would agree that during the Williams era things had veered a little too much towards comedy, Season 18 took it too far back the other way. Saying that though I rank the Williams era as by far the most underrated of all and it's the one who's stories I find the most enjoyable to watch.

    Yes, some of the casual audience deserted it, but that had less to do with the scripts and more to with the dumber viewers being seduced by the style-over-substance approach of Buck Rogers, which was the big US import that year. And how long did that last? 

    And we're back to showing a distinct lack of respect for fellow viewers.

    As for Doctor Who not being science fiction, it seems 99% of the population and every programme guide ever written disagree with you. Of course it's science fiction, therefore it's impossible to inject "too much" science fiction into it! 

    What is so unique about "Doctor Who" is that it's a show that really can't be pigeon holed into a certain type of genre. Over the many wonderful years it's been going we've had amongst other things pure historicals, pseudo historicals, modern day excursions and trips into the far flung future on both Earth and far flung worlds. These varied stories may have had a science fiction theme as part of them, but they've really been so much more than that and that's why it isn't a show that can be described purely as Science Fiction.

    And there was precious little real sci-fi in the RTD era. He may as well have been writing Harry Potter for all the sense most of his plots made. At least Moffat understands and appreciates the possibilities of time travel. 

    There was plenty of real sci-fi in the RTD era if you could have been bothered to actually watch it properly instead of whinging about it not being exactly as you wanted it to be.

    Report message15

  • Message 66

    , in reply to message 64.

    Posted by tony ingram (U14880461) on Monday, 23rd January 2012

    Some of that about Davison is true, I couldnt shake his having been in It shouldnt happen to a vet.

    I think Matt is a good actor, just that he hasnt had such great moments, there have been a few but not as many as Tennant had.

    The Girl Who waited was the best acted one so far in my opinion.

    The best speech so far was him in Stonehenge to the spaceships

    www.youtube.com/watc...


    www.youtube.com/watc...

    One of my favourites as well, there were just not enough of them to show Matt off ot his best 
    In other words, for the Doctor to be impressive he has to be loudly proclaiming how impressive he is to anyone who'll listen. yeah, Tennant did that a lot. Doesn't work for me, and those scenes for me are amon g Matt's weakest because they feel as though they written for Tennant. The older Doctors never needed to do that.

    Davison was in All Creatures Great & Small. It Shouldn't Happen to a Vet was a book, not the title of the TV series.

    Report message16

  • Message 67

    , in reply to message 66.

    Posted by St Hopalong of the hairy chest (U14314874) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    Yes sorry I get the title of the vet thing wrong.

    "fear me I killed them all" was quietly spoken he wasnt proclaiming that as him being great but was a statement of fact.

    Report message17

  • Message 68

    , in reply to message 67.

    Posted by tony ingram (U14880461) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    Yes sorry I get the title of the vet thing wrong.

    "fear me I killed them all" was quietly spoken he wasnt proclaiming that as him being great but was a statement of fact.  
    It was still basically the Doctor making threats and that isn't the Doctor.

    Report message18

  • Message 69

    , in reply to message 68.

    Posted by cricket-Angel Tucker (U3382697) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    It is *this* Doctor. And also the previous two incarnations at least.

    Report message19

  • Message 70

    , in reply to message 69.

    Posted by St Hopalong of the hairy chest (U14314874) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    www.youtube.com/watc...

    Dr who classic quotes

    "do you have a plan Dr?"
    "yes, bung a rock at it"
    smiley - laugh


    DT's incarnation said something like " I used to have so much mercy"

    He only responds to threats with threats. He doesnt threaten from the outset.
    He changed, that's why he failed to see why the space whale came to rescue the people of earth but Amy did.

    Report message20

  • Message 71

    , in reply to message 69.

    Posted by tony ingram (U14880461) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    It is *this* Doctor. And also the previous two incarnations at least.  I don't consider either of the previous two incarnations to be 'real' Doctors. I'd rather Smith played it like the pre-2005 Doctor's, which for the most part, he does.

    Report message21

  • Message 72

    , in reply to message 71.

    Posted by cricket-Angel Tucker (U3382697) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    But your opinion does not make nuWho any less Doctor Who. Just like my indifference to pre-2005 Who does not negate those episodes.

    Report message22

  • Message 73

    , in reply to message 72.

    Posted by St Hopalong of the hairy chest (U14314874) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    Tony, most of what you say comes from experiance and your knowledge of the earlier Dr Who days and I respect that but by denying the recent Dr's you are missing out on a Dr designed for today's generations. It has its highs and lows and there has been some great acting.

    It IS Dr Who. If they had a bulletin board back when Patrick T took over and then Jon P. then I am sure we would have seen similar complaints about them. They were very different Chr's

    Report message23

  • Message 74

    , in reply to message 73.

    Posted by tony ingram (U14880461) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    Tony, most of what you say comes from experiance and your knowledge of the earlier Dr Who days and I respect that but by denying the recent Dr's you are missing out on a Dr designed for today's generations. It has its highs and lows and there has been some great acting.   Possibly it's because I'm not part of today's generation, but until Moffat took over, it just never felt like Doctor Who to me. I just disliked the overall style, hated a lot of the writing and could not see Tennant's Doctor as the same character I've been following since the early 70's at all (Eccleston was better, but he barely had a chance to make his mark).

    It IS Dr Who. If they had a bulletin board back when Patrick T took over and then Jon P. then I am sure we would have seen similar complaints about them. They were very different Chr's  
    Every Doctor has been different from the preceding one and many eras of Doctor Who have been very different from those before them; Troughton's time was little different from Hartnell's in its overall style, but Pertwee's first season was a total departure, for instance. however, I don't think any period of the shows history felt so utterly removed from what had gone before as RTD's. Even the 1996 TV Movie wasn't that different, despite the huge budget and the fact that it was produced in Canada. I just couldn't accept it and I can't stand to re-watch it. To me, it isn't the same show.

    Report message24

  • Message 75

    , in reply to message 74.

    Posted by St Hopalong of the hairy chest (U14314874) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    I couldnt accept the movie, I do so grudgingly so I understand.

    DT was good but he was a bit lovey dovey with his Assistants, that was a departure I can understand people not liking.

    Report message25

  • Message 76

    , in reply to message 75.

    Posted by tony ingram (U14880461) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    I couldnt accept the movie, I do so grudgingly so I understand.

    DT was good but he was a bit lovey dovey with his Assistants, that was a departure I can understand people not liking.

     
    That was just ridiculous. A centuries old alien would not have that kind of relationship with a young girl from Earth. Apart from the age gap and having no comparable life experience, they're two different species! And I really wish I could get all those who got gooey over the whole Doctor/Rose relationship to realize that this being she's fallen in love with is the same character formerly played by a 58 year old William Hartnell!

    Report message26

  • Message 77

    , in reply to message 76.

    Posted by St Hopalong of the hairy chest (U14314874) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    I agree with you, Yes I can understand HER falling for him but not the other way around. She is after all a limited human being, I bet she wouldnt fancy the more manic Matt version nor most of the other incarnations.

    Report message27

  • Message 78

    , in reply to message 77.

    Posted by tony ingram (U14880461) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    I would love to CGI Hartnell or McCoy into that ridiculously soppy scene on the beach with Rose and watch the fangirls' heads explode...

    Report message28

  • Message 79

    , in reply to message 76.

    Posted by cricket-Angel Tucker (U3382697) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    A centuries old alien would not have that kind of relationship with a young girl from Earth. Apart from the age gap and having no comparable life experience, they're two different species!  

    Is River and the Doctor just as squicky?

    Report message29

  • Message 80

    , in reply to message 79.

    Posted by St Hopalong of the hairy chest (U14314874) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    Yes... Though from what I understand much of his relationship with her is really through his Guilt over her losing her regenerations to save him.

    He feels he owes her something, and lets face it it's not that much time he invests in her as she dies in the Library...... oops Spoilers... for her...

    Report message30

  • Message 81

    , in reply to message 80.

    Posted by tony ingram (U14880461) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    Yes... Though from what I understand much of his relationship with her is really through his Guilt over her losing her regenerations to save him.

    He feels he owes her something, and lets face it it's not that much time he invests in her as she dies in the Library...... oops Spoilers... for her...  
    Yes, that kind of mitigates it. That and the fact that she's not quite human. Though I'd still be happier if we never saw her again.

    Report message31

  • Message 82

    , in reply to message 81.

    Posted by cricket-Angel Tucker (U3382697) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    I'd be overjoyed if we never saw her again. But I think Eleven in particular was incredibly flirtatious with her when he thought she was just a human.

    The Doctor is definitely attracted to humans, though it's always quite clear that it is not in the way humans are attracted to each other.

    Report message32

  • Message 83

    , in reply to message 82.

    Posted by tony ingram (U14880461) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    I'd be overjoyed if we never saw her again. But I think Eleven in particular was incredibly flirtatious with her when he thought she was just a human.   I thought it was the other way around.

    Report message33

  • Message 84

    , in reply to message 83.

    Posted by cricket-Angel Tucker (U3382697) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    'Twas mutual.

    Report message34

  • Message 85

    , in reply to message 84.

    Posted by Martyn (U14949330) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    Every Doctor has been different from the preceding one and many eras of Doctor Who have been very different from those before them; Troughton's time was little different from Hartnell's in its overall style, but Pertwee's first season was a total departure, for instance. however, I don't think any period of the shows history felt so utterly removed from what had gone before as RTD's. Even the 1996 TV Movie wasn't that different, despite the huge budget and the fact that it was produced in Canada. I just couldn't accept it and I can't stand to re-watch it. To me, it isn't the same show. 

    You can whinge about it all you like, but the fact remains that the RTD era is "Doctor Who". Always was, always will be, no matter what.

    We all have our least favourite era. Mine is the Jon Pertwee era, but I don't bang on about it not being "Doctor Who", of course it is. It's just a particular era of the show that I don't like.

    I don't think any period of the shows history felt so utterly removed from what had gone before as RTD's. 

    If anything, it's the Moffat era that is more removed from what has gone before than his predecessors. Whereas the original run and the RTD era on the whole used time travel as nothing more than a means to begin each adventure, the Moffat era has gone one step further and put time travel at the forefront of each series with entire stories being told about it.

    Report message35

  • Message 86

    , in reply to message 85.

    Posted by Martyn (U14949330) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    That was just ridiculous. A centuries old alien would not have that kind of relationship with a young girl from Earth. Apart from the age gap and having no comparable life experience, they're two different species! 

    The Doctor's feelings for Rose Tyler are certainly not the first time that he has felt something for a human being. The Third Doctor was most definitely in love with Jo Grant and of course the Eighth Doctor was rather attracted to Doctor Grace Holloway. And if you go right back to the very early days you have the First Doctor having something of a dalliance with Cameca in "The Aztecs".

    Report message36

  • Message 87

    , in reply to message 86.

    Posted by tony ingram (U14880461) on Tuesday, 24th January 2012

    That was just ridiculous. A centuries old alien would not have that kind of relationship with a young girl from Earth. Apart from the age gap and having no comparable life experience, they're two different species! 

    The Doctor's feelings for Rose Tyler are certainly not the first time that he has felt something for a human being. The Third Doctor was most definitely in love with Jo Grant and of course the Eighth Doctor was rather attracted to Doctor Grace Holloway. And if you go right back to the very early days you have the First Doctor having something of a dalliance with Cameca in "The Aztecs". 
    The third Doctor was most certainly NOT "in love with Jo Grant". Where you get that idea from, I have no idea, but I certainly don't believe it. Their relationship was closer to that of an uncle and a favourite niece, and I find the suggestion that there was anything more to it slightly disturbed. And the first Doctor was utterly horrified when he realized the situation he'd gotten into with Cameca. He didn't know the cocoa was significant.

    Report message37

  • Message 88

    , in reply to message 87.

    Posted by St Hopalong of the hairy chest (U14314874) on Wednesday, 25th January 2012

    "Their relationship was closer to that of an uncle and a favourite niece"

    I agree there

    Report message38

  • Message 89

    , in reply to message 88.

    Posted by tony ingram (U14880461) on Wednesday, 25th January 2012

    I've heard this nonsense about the Doctor being in love with Jo, and indeed about Sarah jane being in love with the Doctor, spouted numerous times over the last few years and it seems to me to be a case of people viewing old stories, sometimes even stories they haven't themselves seen in years if at all, from a false perspective created by exposure to the tenth Doctor/Rose relationship rather than seeing what was actually intended at the time.

    Report message39

  • Message 90

    , in reply to message 89.

    Posted by St Hopalong of the hairy chest (U14314874) on Wednesday, 25th January 2012

    www.youtube.com/watc...

    Guarenteed to annoy tony... (sorry, some people have just TOO much time on their hands)

    Seeing as the last couple of pages have just been Dr who related and no Sherlock should we take this back to the Dr Who thread?

    Report message40

  • Message 91

    , in reply to message 89.

    Posted by 4th Dimension Wanderer (U1461416) on Wednesday, 25th January 2012

    I've heard this nonsense about the Doctor being in love with Jo, and indeed about Sarah jane being in love with the Doctor, spouted numerous times over the last few years and it seems to me to be a case of people viewing old stories, sometimes even stories they haven't themselves seen in years if at all, from a false perspective created by exposure to the tenth Doctor/Rose relationship rather than seeing what was actually intended at the time.   Quite agree, Tony - Pertwee himself never envisioned the Doc being in love with Jo, he saw himself as 'the mother hen' a parental protector.

    Indeed the first actress to be cast as Sarah Jane Smith did not sit well with Pertwee who couldn't see her as being someone that needed the Doc to protect her.

    The only reason people seem to say Pertwee's Doc was in love with Jo was because RTD said so. RTD also said Pertwee left at the end of The Green Death because he was heartbroken at being given the elbow, rubbish, it was more like the sadness of a parent when a kid leaves home!

    Report message41

  • Message 92

    , in reply to message 91.

    Posted by tony ingram (U14880461) on Wednesday, 25th January 2012

    That was my reading of the situation, too. It's a very poignant scene, reminiscent of the first Doctor losing Susan, which has been totally misinterpreted by people with one track minds and no understanding of the characters.

    Report message42

  • Message 93

    , in reply to message 92.

    Posted by Martyn (U14949330) on Wednesday, 25th January 2012

    That was my reading of the situation, too. It's a very poignant scene, reminiscent of the first Doctor losing Susan, which has been totally misinterpreted by people with one track minds and no understanding of the characters. 

    One day you might actually learn the wisdom of showing respect for opposing viewpoints instead of going on the offensive all the time by proclaiming those who don't share your opinion to either 'have no idea what they're talking about', 'having no understanding of the characters' or 'disturbed'.

    Somehow though, I doubt it will ever happen because in the world of 'tony ingram' only 'tony ingram' is right and everyone who says different must be treated with disdain.

    Report message43

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