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  • Message 1. 

    Posted by Alex S (U4744604) on Wednesday, 8th August 2012


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  • Message 2

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Alex S (U4744604) on Thursday, 9th August 2012

    Hello. there!

    The idea of this thread came to my mind after vast and long discussion on religious and social issues.... Now we are experiencing virtually EXPLOSION of science and technology progress... It happens in a very short period - during something like just 2 past ages! Why? If people became more clever or "comprehensive"? Well... they watched the Nature for ages... even for millenniums! People managed to erect huge and impessive pyramids both in Africa and America... they moved very big stones to build... astronomical (!) structures, they were able to process bronze, make steel tools and weapons..., but even two hundred years ago they lived in almost the same way as... two thousand years ago! They rode on horses, built houses from stone and wood and used the candle light...
    The only difference was perhaps that gun powder - it was invented in China and used by Europeans for conquering the World.... China, by the way, gave the World paper and paper printing, many science gauges and ideas... Nevertheles for ages (!) they didn't manage to use the electricity, say for lighting and heating, or thermal engines....
    People also learned how to produce and process glass a long time ago, but only about 500 years back they started to use it for optical purposes and it took them ages (!) to make it sophisticated enough! (Compare it with the modern progess with semiconductors!)
    Now let's turn from technology to science... Pythagoras, Archimedes, Ptolemy.... - they were divided by centuries! And it took another centuries before Copernicus and Galileo... Impossible amount of time! And such slow progress? Why?
    Is it something to do with religion? And which one? If this science and technology "explosion" happened DUE to a religion or DESPITE it?

    Imagine that there is no Europe (say, it is covered again with the ice for 1000 years or so....). What do you think, where would be now civilizations in China, India, America, Africa?

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  • Message 3

    , in reply to message 2.

    Posted by Nori (U4687824) on Thursday, 9th August 2012


    Religion doubtless is an obstacle for mankind to progress. It doesn't give satisfactory explanation like science. For example, we know that dinosaurs existed before humans. That's because we found fossils of dinosaurs. Scientists made a clear explanation how the universe is formed - the theory of Big Bang. The theory makes sense although it's only a hypothesis. However this hypothesis is much much acceptable and reasonable rather than merely saying "god(s) created it."

    People in older days had lesser education and knowledge about almost anything. So when someone says that the Earth is the center of the universe, everyone, who knows nothing about the universe, believes it. It's something like Santa Claus. Children believe that they will receive a gift from him on December 24 or 25. That's only because their parents told their children that if they behave good, Santa Claus would give them presents.

    Today, younger generation attend university and get high education. Schools are the places to give truth to students. By knowing facts through deep research or survey, we learn. For example, we know that our planet isn't the center of the universe...., thanks to Galileo. Religious people punished him for blasphemy. And in ancient times, they also killed so-called witches by burning them alive. "Thou shalt not kill" didn't apply here. Why? And who judged whether a person was a witch or not?

    There are no ghosts, UFOs, zombies, aliens, wolfman or other scary creatures created by Hollywood movy. Likewise there are no gods, devils, afterlife, previous existence, angels, or such things. They're all in our insecured minds. I have never ever heard of people killed by ghosts or devils.

    I wish that all religious people could face the reality instead. Praying for gods' help won't do any good if we are in a situation where we survive or die.

    Let's talk about Noah's Arc. Thou shalt not kill is one of the Ten Commandments. However, during the flood, (accroding to the Bible) millions of innocent people were killed including babies and children. How about that?


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  • Message 4

    , in reply to message 3.

    Posted by meean (U15297825) on Thursday, 9th August 2012

    Hello Nori, Alex S and All

    I read about the mentioning of big bang here and also in one of the site whose address is as below:

    Mr. Nori, would you like to comment on it?


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  • Message 5

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by Vladimir (U14599522) on Thursday, 9th August 2012

    Hello, everyone

    I think earlier religion was necessary stage in forming most civilized society. By fearing Gods punishment people obeyed simple, unified rules and behaved more like one whole. And that for sure led to more prosperity in state, helped to concentrate recourses to develop education, science, specialized labor. Lets also remember that first books were exactly religious books.

    During development of education, science, jurisprudence, significance of religion fell, religious leaders often used religion in their own interests, by this hampered society development. So, now it’s possible and more effective to have united state without religions help.

    Alex, I don’t quite understand your question about were would by civilization if Europe will be frozen. Don’t you mean that now civilization is only in Europe? I think all modern country are civilized, so civilization is everywhere in the world.

    Best wishes,

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  • Message 6

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by Vladimir (U14599522) on Thursday, 9th August 2012

    Hi, Meean

    It’s interesting for me that you asked me ready questions-answers Part -1 and Part -2. So, I guessed correctly addressing you to Torah and pointing out that actual meaning of what writing there became clear only after it find out science : “… information about Heliocentric System contains in Torah, but written it in a such metaphorical way that what it really mean became clear only in the 16th century when a new idea was proposed by the Polish astronomer Nicolai Copernicus (1473-1543).”

    Best wishes,

    Report message6

  • Message 7

    , in reply to message 4.

    Posted by Nori (U4687824) on Thursday, 9th August 2012

    Dear Meean,

    Thank you for the site you've convinced me to visit. However, as soon as I opened the site, I realized that the site is created by your relitious people. So, I immediately closed the site. I didn't read a sentence of what it says.

    In order to be fair, you need to show sites which are not created by your religious people. And there are many sites which believe in so called gods. However, there are more sites which don't accept religion.

    If there is anyone who has seen miracles or gods, please go to New York and visit the Time magazine office. They will eager to hear interesting stories. But I've never heard of anyone who has seen gods. If when there is a chance to see gods, please tell them to have his signature on a piece of paper. Or ask them to take a picture with you. Today it's so easy to take a picture with mobile phone. We need facts, truth and evidence to believe. We should avoid telling things which aren't real.

    Adam and Eve were the first humans on the Earth, according to the Bible. Why do people know that their name were Adam and Eve? Their language must be English. How did they master the languave when there wasn't a single country or a culture on the Earth? When I was a kid, those puzzling questions always came up on my mind. Nobody ever has a clear explanation. All they mumbled is "Because god(s) wanted it so...." and blah, blah, blah. Even I was a child I could distinguish between true and what's not true.

    If there is no facts or evidences, then all I could say is that people are giving people false information.


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  • Message 8

    , in reply to message 2.

    Posted by Loreley (U15339124) on Thursday, 9th August 2012

    Hello everyone!

    The question about civilization and what it means is very interesting, but also difficult. What is civilisation? I can just speak for people from the so-called western part of the world. But we are not the whole world! It is easy to claim, that our standard of knowlegdes and science must be the standard for human race. The history of civilisation is a history of depression and bloodshed also. There are many examples for it ... Conquest of Latin America, colonisation of Asia and Africa, settlement of Australia and Northern America. History of civilisation is always connected with ruination of other cultures. Our great mistake is to think, that our standard of civilisation it the only right one. What will say people in five hundred years about our time? Oh my God, what a primitive culture? It is possible.

    I don't want to start a new discussion about religion, but I want to stess, that religion is like a "escape route" for people of every age of time. If the human is unable to understand things he comes to belief in God, because He could "explain" everything. This may be comfortable, but it is not conductive for development of culture and civilisation. In Europe in Middelages people thougt, Black Death (pest) was send by God in order to punish disobedient people ... today we know, the pest-virus is carrying from animals like flea to the human (I haven't the intention to give an excursus about Black Death, because I'm not a medical scientist.) The main problem of that time was the catastrophal hygiene and care of health, but people didn't know about it and their only conclusion was a punishment of God.

    I would like to give you another example about development of human society. A milestone of our European and German history is the geopolitical connection with Napoleon Bonaparte, the wars between Germany and France (in context of the whole European relationships). The battlefields were filled with blood, but because of his "Code Civil" we grew up to a new nation. (By the way: since that point of time we ARE a nation.)

    hoping for further discussion
    best regards and Good Night

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  • Message 9

    , in reply to message 8.

    Posted by Vladimir (U14599522) on Sunday, 12th August 2012

    Hello, everyone

    I wonder why Alex is silent. As I understand he asked a question “Why civilization?” and disappeared without explaining what he mean by term “civilization” smiley - erm

    May we say that this tribe live “without civilization”? Some people think that these people quite content with their life without civilization. On the other hand they live without basic conveniences to which we get used. So the question is should we bring there “civilization” to help these poor people or should leave them alone with their hard life?

    Best wishes,

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  • Message 10

    , in reply to message 9.

    Posted by Vladimir (U14599522) on Sunday, 12th August 2012

    Sorry, link: : Isolated tribe spotted in Brazil

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  • Message 11

    , in reply to message 9.

    Posted by Loreley (U15339124) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012

    Hi Vladimir and everyone,

    why are so little messages regarding this topic? Nobody has an opinion about it?

    I know your story about this Brazilian tribe, and we can ask again "What is civilization?".

    From our point of view they are underdeveloped, barbarian and primitive people without "comfort" of life. But do we have the right to bring them "our" civilization? Then their culture and their civilization will be destroyed like many other folks before. I say just one word: colonisation! We're living in the 21th century and maybe we are the first generation, who realized, that our whole culture depends on a just few strings, connected with the past. This Brazilien tribe gives us a glimpes in our own history. And if we destroy it we will destroy ourselves.

    Let's ask another question: what's the context between civilization and culture? Were the people, which lived in Lascaux (FR) 17.000 years ago, without civilization, although they created such wonderful cave paintings?

    a nice evening & best regards

    P.S. Vladimir,
    or should leave them alone with their hard life? 
    What is a "hard" life? To manage our civilized life with mobile phone and internet, rush hour and consumer society is not less harder smiley - winkeye

    Report message11

  • Message 12

    , in reply to message 11.

    Posted by Vladimir (U14599522) on Wednesday, 15th August 2012

    Hi, Lena

    Term “civilization” haves several meaning and it changed with time . Alex organized this thread and disappeared for almost whole week. I hope he is ok, but for me not clear what was his idea “Why civilization?” . May be I’m wrong, but I have supposition that he meant question “Why civilization is better then primitive life?”. In this sense term civilization mean “material and instrumental side of human cultures and … division of labor.”, on the contrary primitive life have small division of labor. That’s because I posted this link – now we have unique opportunity to compare two different way of life. First – “civilized” with narrow specialization of work, mad competition for position, money, success, fame etc. And second - natural life in caves or huts where all members can do and do similar work, there are no crises exist, no financial fraud, there for sure are more equality, and I suppose much more low suicide rate. By the way, there are no schools exist – it’s paradise for children smiley - smiley

    So the question is - if this tribe live more happy life than we have in “civilized” society, then why we would not return back to caves? I think no one will agree. But than why we insist to leave this tribe in these hard conditions instead of help them at least materially?

    On the other hand if civilization does not bring to people more happiness, then why we need it? Why civilization?

    Best wishes,

    P.S. I hope Alex will appear soon and will resolve this puzzle that he posed to us.

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  • Message 13

    , in reply to message 12.

    Posted by Alex S (U4744604) on Sunday, 19th August 2012

    I'm sorry, Vladimir and everybody for my "disappearance".... This stupid Olympics "knocked me out" of my normal "course" completely... There were also some other "unplanned" events.... but I hope to return to the usual "rhythm" gradually....

    Report message13

  • Message 14

    , in reply to message 13.

    Posted by Vladimir (U14599522) on Sunday, 19th August 2012

    Hi, Alex

    Welcome back to MB smiley - smiley

    Report message14

  • Message 15

    , in reply to message 13.

    Posted by Loreley (U15339124) on Monday, 20th August 2012

    Hi Alex,

    I'm glad to see you again ... we have missed you and your entertainment smiley - smiley


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  • Message 16

    , in reply to message 15.

    Posted by Vladimir (U14599522) on Monday, 20th August 2012

    Yes, yes, Alex – for the sake of civilization’s fate you’d better to postpone all “unplanned events” together with “stupid Olympics”!

    Just kidding smiley - smiley Up to 2050 (when Earth resources will run out) with have plenty of time


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  • Message 17

    , in reply to message 16.

    Posted by Alex S (U4744604) on Tuesday, 21st August 2012

    Have you heard the news? They've found "humane remains" in laos.... 60 000 year old! We learnt in the school that all modern "civilization" (this word is really tricky and I think I will write on this issue too) emerged something like 6 000 years ago in Mesopotamia.... Now we know that Homosapiens came from the jungles of Africa a long time ago and spread to America and Australia through Asia....
    There was a way then... Maybe some isles, maybe even "ice ways".... Later the sea level has risen and the continents became separated... Since then people changed a lot on those continents - they look different, have different cultures and habits... Why they are so different in the North America and Europe? The geographical conditions (climate, seasons) are very similar! Lack of enemies? Why people in the America had so little progress?

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  • Message 18

    , in reply to message 17.

    Posted by Vladimir (U14599522) on Wednesday, 22nd August 2012

    I don’t know why. May be there are no any special cause for that. Someone had to progress faster. Suppose it were native people in America that developed faster, then they may arrived on their sailers in Pharaohs time and colonized Egypt. History than turned completely different way. And in such case we should be mow wondered – why civilization in Europe, Asia, Africa developed so slowly smiley - erm

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  • Message 19

    , in reply to message 18.

    Posted by Loreley (U15339124) on Wednesday, 22nd August 2012

    Hi Alex,
    Hi Vladimir
    & everyone

    what to you mean with ...
    Why people in the America had so little progress?  
    I suppose you speak about the native Americans? About the fact, when we Europeans discovered the world and expended science and knowledges, people in other parts of the world live a very simple live, not on the same level than European people?

    What would you say, if I tell you, that the Americans didn't have so litlte progess, but "other" progress? But I have to admit ... I have not an adequate answer.

    I heard, that the development of culture and civilization depends on temperature (!) and necessity. It should be an explanation, why in south of europe (in example five hundred years ago or middle age) people was more educated and have more intentions to push and advance science and knowledges than in Northern Europe. But maybe this is just a cliché!

    Idon't know why .... maybe we should invite scientist to our discussuion ...


    Report message19

  • Message 20

    , in reply to message 18.

    Posted by Alex S (U4744604) on Wednesday, 22nd August 2012

    In Mesopotamia, Mediterranean and Europe people came later than in Australia, America and Asia... I know that there are evidences about links between American cultures (by the way - put the word "civilization" in the BBC search box and see what happens...) and ancient Egypt. Maybe Meean is right and people knew that the "World is round" far before they wrote the Quaran... There are ideas that people from Polynesia reached the shore of South America... by Sea! I wonder, how did they manage to populate the Pacific isles?

    There were civilizations besides ancient Egypt! Persepolis - an amazing part of history! Enigmatic Etruscans which preceded ancient Rome. But all this time there were people in America and Australia and they lived in the same way day-after-day-after-day.... Year-after-year.... Millennium after millenium! Amazing! Without inventing new tools, building houses.... The only thing was similar.... They all... SPOKE! They used language in some way....

    But they were virtually the same people as we are! Biologically... If you take now a child from some "wild" tribe of Africa or Amazonia for example.... and put it in a MODERN society - Asian, American or European.... the child will become absolutely modern Chinese, Mexican or Dutch....! If you put it in the Islamic environment, it will be muslim, if you put it in Japan, it may grow Buddist...

    It is impossible to provide such experiment, but if we would be able to get somehow a child from the past (Ancient Egypt for example) and place it in the modern society, the child would acquire all modern skills and features... I think that the same result we could get for a much "older" child - say from 60 000 year ago or so....

    Report message20

  • Message 21

    , in reply to message 20.

    Posted by Alex S (U4744604) on Wednesday, 22nd August 2012

    Something has happened about 500 years ago.... maybe 600....

    As you already said, there were "dark ages" of the medieval backwardnes.... and suddenly renascence came! DESPITE the religious prosecutions scientists, inventors, artists started to buid our modern "technological" civilization and did it amazingly fast!

    And what I meant, that they were mainly Europeans! They borrowed of course some ideas from other parts of the World, but used their own inventiveness and creativity.... I do not mean that they were "better" or "more clever" than the others, but perhaps something was different.... Otherwise people would develop also in the other parts of the World....

    Report message21

  • Message 22

    , in reply to message 21.

    Posted by Loreley (U15339124) on Wednesday, 22nd August 2012

    you ask the same quesion than I ... but as I said before we have to consider "our" view on the world. We learned in school Columbus had discover the America, the "New World" (by a mistake - he had the intention to discover India, but sailed in the wrong direction!). But a few hundret years ago Leif Ericson sailed to America and discoverd Newfoundland ... so he and his comagnions are the first Europeans in America and not Columbus! Many things were happen, but we can't find it in our history. We don't know anything about the Asia two hundred years ago, because it was closed behind walls, but this doesn't mean, that it didn't exist.


    Report message22

  • Message 23

    , in reply to message 22.

    Posted by Alex S (U4744604) on Wednesday, 22nd August 2012

    They DID not know THEN. But we DO know NOW! And keep discovering the past. The history is impossible to restore, but some facts it is possible to know!

    Report message23

  • Message 24

    , in reply to message 23.

    Posted by Vladimir (U14599522) on Thursday, 23rd August 2012

    Hi, Alex, Lena

    I have another supposition why people in America were late in development – they spent some time for spreading their population throughout all continent.

    Report message24

  • Message 25

    , in reply to message 24.

    Posted by lark13 (U15394613) on Friday, 24th August 2012

    Hello, everyone!

    Could I join this discussion, please?
    I have some ideas that might be interesting for you. First of all let’s put some postulates. Firstly, humankind is the complex system, which is part of more complex system that we called Nature. Secondly, existing humankind have a purpose, that we don’t know (Our lack of knowledge about the purpose doesn’t mean that there is no the purpose at all). And thirdly, any system can be describe in the terms of the metasystem only, (May be some day human being will managed to recognize what this metasystem is, reach it and understand what the purpose of humankind existing is. Don’t ask me how!)
    Based on these postulates we make some conclusions. (I omitted the detailed argument to save your time)
    Any system has to work properly. That means it needs to be synchronized. During many centuries and partly now religion was a synchronizer of the humankind as the system. Operating speed of any complex system depends of the speed of information transfer between its parts. Last one could explain why civilization developed with different speed in different conditions for transferring information and why now we have high speed of developing not only technology, but ideas.
    I will be glad if someone is interested in these ideas.

    Have a nice day!


    Report message25

  • Message 26

    , in reply to message 25.

    Posted by Vladimir (U14599522) on Friday, 24th August 2012

    Hi, Lark

    Nice to meet you and welcome to this thread. I think it’s really a clue to solve to this enigma – people in America had less information transfer speed because they didn’t manage to invent wheel and there weren’t horses before arriving Europeans in the 16th Century.

    Yet you wrote interesting thought that “humankind have a purpose , that we don’t know”. At once I have a question - where this information come from as you are one of humankind? I think that your explanation “Our lack of knowledge about the purpose doesn’t mean that there is no the purpose at all” though logically correct but at the same time prove nothing, because reverse affirmation is also correct “Our lack of knowledge about something does not mean this ‘something' actually exists”

    Best wishes,

    Report message26

  • Message 27

    , in reply to message 25.

    Posted by Alex S (U4744604) on Friday, 24th August 2012

    Hello, Lark! Thank you for the contribution. About "human purpose"... have a look at my thread "The Books you Will Never Read".... You may find it entertaining... BTW, I think that you should speak Polish (at least to some extent)...

    You (as well as Vladimir) should remember very well the basics of "Marxism" - Dialectic Materialism, Politeconomy.... Yesterday I digitized my old video tapes and found an interesting programme (over 8 years old) - it is a radio programme, I used VHS recorder then to record audio programmes because of the built in timer....

    So... a matter of "stick and carrot"...

    We learnt that if we wish to know someting about society or politics... we should look into... economy! Classes, production, tools of manufacturing....

    Economy is like the Nature - it is a "blind force". It is like water on the surface of a "gravitational source".... - flows "where it goes"!

    About Vladimir's idea of migration.... I don't think it matters too much. People explored and inhabited new places quite fast - it took years, maybe decades but certainly not millenniums! People first inhabited more favorable places I think - climate, food, resources, enemies issues.... There are still vast rather uninhabited places on our Planet, though we are able to move, settle and construct now very quick...

    Maybe the population growing is got something to do with the progress.... Maybe there is some correlation or.... "threshold" after which people start to build houses, cities...

    Actually there are two major "ambitions" in the human race - desire of "moving on" and "settling permanently"! Maybe there are genes responsible for that....

    Anyway, if religion is really somehow linked with the progress, it seems that Christianity is more "progressive" than Islam, though they emerged virtually simulteneously!

    So - is it "critical mass"? Concentration of people?

    As for "information spreading" - thousand years ago in Europe it was mainly the same as in Australia or America.... Language development? Why it started to "develop"?

    Report message27

  • Message 28

    , in reply to message 26.

    Posted by Alex S (U4744604) on Friday, 24th August 2012

    HORSE? Hm.... It is interesting! I looked up....

    So.... no more than just 6 thousand years... But there were certainly wild horses a long time before! Evolution takes much more than 6000 years! Where they came from?

    Report message28

  • Message 29

    , in reply to message 26.

    Posted by lark13 (U15394613) on Saturday, 25th August 2012

    Hi, Vladimir,
    Thank you for your ideas about horses. It might be one reason for earlier civilization on the East than in Europe. However, I’m not sure about period of time for using horses and where it happened the first time.
    I agree with you, that we can’t know whether the purpose for humankind exists. Probably it exists, probably not. As I said before, any system can be described in the terms of the metasystem only. It’s not my idea, it is a mathematic formula. Supposing the purpose exists we can prove some ideas. This opinion is more emotional, then rational. I understand that this hypothetical purpose could be far from our moral and our point of view what is good or bad. For example, something grows up humankind for our noosphere just for food. It’s terrible, but it might be the truth.
    Take care, my congratulations on the Independent Day of Ukraine!
    Waiting for your new ideas,

    Report message29

  • Message 30

    , in reply to message 27.

    Posted by lark13 (U15394613) on Saturday, 25th August 2012

    Hello, Alex,
    Thank you for giving me many interesting ideas. Before continue discussion about philosophy, would you mind to say if you had your old tapes digitized in a special service or did it yourself? I have the same problem and cannot decide what to do.
    Now back to our discussion. I agree with you and Marks, economic reasons are important for society or politics. However, it is definitely not the only reason.
    I didn’t understand your conclusion about Christianity and Islam. In my opinion there are no differences between them. Both of them have one God (monotheism), moreover the same God and the same story. Islam is younger then Christianity. That’s all. But I wouldn’t like to discuss about religion. We have the special thread on this board.
    You ask extremely interesting question why development started. Are you sure that development has started? It may be continue the Universe’s process.
    Best wishes and my congratulations on the Independent Day of Ukraine!

    Report message30

  • Message 31

    , in reply to message 30.

    Posted by Alex S (U4744604) on Saturday, 25th August 2012

    Hi, Lark!

    Video tapes I am digitizing using a DVD recorder. I may answer any detailed questions on this matter, but better to do it perhaps in other thread.... I've got an old and abondoned now thread....

    If you wish we might use it for discussing those matters.. It is more suitable smiley - biggrin

    On the subject I'll try to write tomorrow....

    Report message31

  • Message 32

    , in reply to message 29.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 33

    , in reply to message 29.

    Posted by Vladimir (U14599522) on Sunday, 26th August 2012

    Oops! My message was banned smiley - sadface

    Report message33

  • Message 34

    , in reply to message 29.

    This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way.

  • Message 35

    , in reply to message 33.

    Posted by Alex S (U4744604) on Sunday, 26th August 2012

    Why? Did you write some four letter word? Or maybe some offensive religious opinion? Sometimes this stupid robot confuses absolutely innocent words with the indecent ones... Was it OK during the "preview"?

    Report message35

  • Message 36

    , in reply to message 35.

    Posted by Vladimir (U14599522) on Sunday, 26th August 2012

    Yes, it was Ok both times

    Report message36

  • Message 37

    , in reply to message 36.

    Posted by Vladimir (U14599522) on Sunday, 26th August 2012

    I tried to answer Lark

    Lets try once more and only one paragraph:

    I’m not very keen in philosophy, may be even more – I complete ignoramus in it. But for some time I regard too abstract thing with some suspicious. Once I met this article - “Liar paradox” and was struck by this phrase “liar paradox was discussed for at least 5 centuries starting from late 9th century”. For sure I’m ignoramus, because I can’t comprehend why people spent so much time on so unimportant on my view things, what the use from their effort?

    Report message37

  • Message 38

    , in reply to message 37.

    Posted by Vladimir (U14599522) on Sunday, 26th August 2012

    So, when reading your affirmation that “any system can be described in the terms of the metasystem only” I had intention to argue and ask farther question – does this “metasystem” have its own “metametasystem” and the last its own “metametameta…”! oh, my brain can’t stand it smiley - yikes . But when I read that actually “it is a mathematic formula” I feel complete desperation about possibility to gain any understanding about civilization cause and fate smiley - sadface . Does it really so complicated? Couldn’t we anyhow study our civilization without discovering some metasystem above us?

    Report message38

  • Message 39

    , in reply to message 38.

    Posted by Vladimir (U14599522) on Sunday, 26th August 2012

    But I have question much more simple (according to my intelligence). Did you notice link in my message 10? What do you think about this indigenous tribe in Brazil? How do you think, should we somehow join this tribe to our “civilization” or should we artificially preserve their isolation and secretly watch their life as for wild animal in zoo? Will our such action be justified as “human”?

    Report message39

  • Message 40

    , in reply to message 39.

    Posted by Alex S (U4744604) on Sunday, 26th August 2012

    It was a hard day today... No running water.... How did they manage to live without it in the past? smiley - biggrin No civilization.... I will try to write tomorrow...

    Report message40

  • Message 41

    , in reply to message 39.

    Posted by lark13 (U15394613) on Monday, 27th August 2012

    Hi, Vladimir,
    Thank you for your attention to my ideas and for a new word – ignoramus. Actually, I’m ignoramus at philosophy too. I can’t help thinking about your ideas of development of civilization, but you caught the idea about meta-meta-metasystem absolutely correctly. May be somebody is able to imagine infinity, I’m definitely not.
    So, back to Amazonian tribe! I have an answer for your question. And you are right, this question much simpler and has at least one answer. Before answering could I make some notices? Fist of all despite I haven’t need to believe in Creator yet, I strongly believe that all events turn from good to better. Unfortunately, this “good” is not always for particularly human being or even humankind. Therefore, in case with “wild” tribe we just should let events take their course, in other words: Don’t help, if you aren’t ask.

    Looking forward to your new idea,


    Report message41

  • Message 42

    , in reply to message 31.

    Posted by lark13 (U15394613) on Monday, 27th August 2012

    Hello, Alex,
    Thank you for your clear answer about digitizing and no, I don’t need more information about it.
    Looking forward to hearing your opinion about main subject.
    Is water running? Being without hot water during a week I completely understand your skepticism about CIVILIZATION! smiley - smiley
    Have a nice day,

    Report message42

  • Message 43

    , in reply to message 42.

    Posted by Alex S (U4744604) on Monday, 27th August 2012

    Hi, Lark! Ha! Hot water! Without hot water a man can survive! smiley - biggrin Cold water, I'm afraid! It shows how vulnerable we are... No elecricity, no water.... and we are completely helpless! People just something like 200 years ago wouldn't even understood our problems! It is a matter of habits actually. Perhaps those people felt themselves as comfortable as we are now...

    Skepticism? Why? I am a realist and... optimist! smiley - biggrin You know, pessimist exclaims "It can't be worser!" But optimist replies: "No! It can be much worser!! smiley - biggrin

    (what happened with the font in the composing box? It is went pale... Or maybe there's something wrong with my browser? Sorry for the possible mistakes - I hardly recognize the characters...)

    Do you remember that "materialistic" claim that "the labor created the man out of ape"? We were kidding during the "voluntary agriculture activity" that too much work can make a horse out of man...

    During the past days i've been thinking about that labor and the role of inventiveness in the evolution.... Can you tell me as a "lark" how birds learnt how to "construct" the nests? Perhaps they were also evolving, but so slowly that for us they are virtually unchangeable... Maybe the termite heaps or those beecell structures are also evolving? If the living creatures make those improvements consciously? Obviously they do not "invent" - just experience some casual improvements by chance...

    What about the inventiveness of the people? How it occurs?

    Report message43

  • Message 44

    , in reply to message 41.

    Posted by Alex S (U4744604) on Monday, 27th August 2012

    And one passage from the BBC reminded me that "problem" with the tribe...

    Superiority? Can we avoid it? It is actually what the whole History is about! Competition is a human race! It is .... the basic law of the Nature!

    Have you heard about Mikluho-Maklay?

    Report message44

  • Message 45

    , in reply to message 41.

    Posted by Vladimir (U14599522) on Monday, 27th August 2012

    Hi, Lark

    We discussed “Ignorance” here a little bit, thanks to Demet.

    You said interesting and unusual things about your belief, I hear about such idea for the first time. Is it Ok if I wouldn’t agree with you? Or it’s your some kind of religion that don’t tolerate analyzing? I suppose at least I may describe my view.

    I think human invented term “good” to describe his egoistic attitude towards surrounding, it may exist only inside human head and always relative. If you don’t believe in existence of any other creatures that able to think abstractedly, than conception “good” may be only inside some human’s head and mean some profit for concrete person or all humanity in the best case. So, I don’t understand how it can be “good” that actually is bad for all humanity. For whom is this “good”? In whose brain may exist such thought. Is it some kind of higher intellect?

    Actually I think problem of this isolated tribe is not so simple, at least it gives ground to think about different things. First there is problem about diseases: “they have no defence against illnesses”. So, if we’ll let events take their course (and I think it will by exactly in such way), then sooner or later some tribe member will get contact and bring infection to whole tribe.

    You said “Don’t help, if you aren’t ask.”. But they will never ask – they don’t know that we exist. Let’s suppose that government will adopt decision by some measures guaranty isolation to prevent diseases spreading. So the question is – do we have right to keep them not knowing about us? What about human solidarity? What about children that live there? They are normal children, but after passing ten, twenty years they will be left far behind their contemporaries. They may then ask why their Human Rights were violated - : Article 26(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory.  
    What do you think?

    Best wishes,

    Report message45

  • Message 46

    , in reply to message 45.

    Posted by lark13 (U15394613) on Tuesday, 28th August 2012

    Hi, Vladimir,
    Yes, of course, you can criticize my point of view. But I’m sure, you know an idea about two doors with the labels “Believe” and “Know”. Nobody can entry in both of them in the same time. Your discussion about God on the other thread of this board proves it.
    However, what should we do with that isolate tribe? As usual, it is the problem of choosing. If we accept the idea that human being is not the centre of Universe, answer, as I’ve said before, is simple. It’s not our business! Let them live their own lives!
    But if we’d like to get preferences for us as personality, or family, or country, or even all mankind we have two ways. One way is destruction of this tribe. There are no people, there is no problem. Any sane human being can’t make this choice. Another way is to bring these people our education, science, our way of living and thinking. It doesn’t matter that people of tribe will lose their culture and lifestyle! This choice reminds me of the movie “Kin-Dza-Dza”. I’m sure you’ve watched it. “Fiddler” said:” Hey, girl! Are you the smartest person on this planet? Is it your opinion or somebody else think so?”
    I’m afraid, that “the smartest decisions” will be the worst!
    Speaking about right for education, I think the children of the tribe get it in full, in accordance with the conditions of its people.
    If another hypothetical civilization come to us and starts changing our life because in their opinion we are “wild”, will you obey? I wander to know if you think the unconditional good for everyone really exists.

    Best wishes,

    Report message46

  • Message 47

    , in reply to message 44.

    Posted by lark13 (U15394613) on Tuesday, 28th August 2012

    Hello, Alex

    I like your sense of humor! Especially about survival and optimism. Three years ago one smart and behavior American girl, leaving a toilet under the main square in Kiev, said me with a sad smile: “We will survive!”
    Despite the fact that I’m a lark I don’t know how to build the nest. In my life I built only one may be not perfect but I like it.
    By the way, recently I’ve read that birds may be premature dinosaurs. It is an interesting idea, isn’t it?
    Can’t think and write about serious problems like superiority today, I’m sorry!

    Take care,


    Report message47

  • Message 48

    , in reply to message 47.

    Posted by Alex S (U4744604) on Tuesday, 28th August 2012

    By the way, recently I’ve read that birds may be premature dinosaurs. It is an interesting idea, isn’t it?
    They are certainly inherit some instincts. But they are able to learn as well! Have you seen how birds are using cars as "nutcrackers"? They couldn't inherit it! They must have INVENTED! A long time ago birds developed feathers and wings (instead of front limbs) and beak instead of jaws... For some reason it happened to become more favorable! But the "three-finger" legs stayed virtually the same as dinosaurs had! 

    Report message48

  • Message 49

    , in reply to message 46.

    Posted by Vladimir (U14599522) on Wednesday, 29th August 2012

    Hi, Lark

    I failed to answer yesterday on your interesting message and now have limited time, so I’ll try to answer but only partially.

    First, I would like to use not “criticize” your view but “compare” our views in aim that I may change my view if I’ll found ground for this. And you wrote very interesting for me and unusual things about humanity that is not “center of Universe”. I know that center of mass of Universe is somewhere far in the space (if it exists at all), but nevertheless my instinct of self-preservation tell me different things – “center” should be calculated by somewhat different criterions but not by quantity of dead matter. So, I don’t accept your idea, let me propose to count only mass of grey matter of human brain to determine “center of Universe”! Why not? If so, than humanity is center of Universe and criterion of “good” is extremum of masses of “grey matter” in the Univers. smiley - erm Sounds strange, but it’s much more better than “center of mass of dead matter” smiley - smiley

    To be continued

    Report message49

  • Message 50

    , in reply to message 49.

    Posted by lark13 (U15394613) on Wednesday, 29th August 2012

    Hello, Vladimir,

    Looking forward to continuous, because quite honestly I didn’t understand your idea about “extremum of masses of “grey matter” in the Universe” “Extremum” could be maximum or minimum? Do you really think that quantity determines moral concepts? It can’t be so! No, obviously, I didn’t comprehend your idea correctly, did I?

    Have a nice day!


    Report message50

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