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  • Message 1. Posted by Ali - iPlayer Host (U8430072) on Tuesday, 22nd May 2007permalink

    What new topics would you like to see covered on this messageboard? Suggest an idea by posting in this thread.

  • Message 2. Posted by Cregaune (U8181785) on Friday, 25th May 2007permalink

    What's probably a lot more relevant here is to ask what CANNOT be discussed. So, for starters, is DRM discussion allowed or are the BBC Iplayer team still keeping their heads firmly in the sand on that one?

    Obviously I don't speak from experience (of course not) but the ridiculous DRM protection currently used on this trial is easily defeated by those who have no more than a passing technical ability. I'm reliably informed (very reliably!) that it takes about three clicks of the mouse if you download the freely available software. So what's the point of having it? Are we to penalise the ignorant while allowing those in the know free reign? Has the BBC Iplayer team been honest with the copyright holders and the wider public about the deficiencies of Microsoft's DRM protection? I think not.

    So there we are......please discuss.

    complain

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  • Message 3. Posted by Gareth-iPlayerOps (U6799267) on Saturday, 26th May 2007permalink

    Good morning, iPlayer is currently in beta - and these boards are another way of communicating experiences and sharing information of that beta experience - so all constructive feedback is welcome.

    This is a reply to this message.

  • Message 4. Posted by Ali - iPlayer Host (U8430072) on Tuesday, 29th May 2007permalink

    Hi Cregaune,

    Yes of course DRM discussion is ‘allowed’ – we’d like to know what people think about it. And if anyone out there has ideas for a better solution that would be acceptable to the rights holders, we definitely want to know about it!

    To answer your specific queries, you ask what’s the point of having it at all. In short: without it, we wouldn’t have iPlayer. The rights holders – actors, musicians, writers and the many other contributors to programmes - will not let us make their programmes available on demand without it. The approach we have taken is in line with that of other UK and international broadcasters. iPlayer would be pretty dull without all those programmes!

    I’m afraid that I don’t agree that we’re ‘penalising the ignorant’ – quite the opposite. Although it’s illegal to break copyright protection, we know that some people have been illegally copying and watching BBC programmes online for years. By using DRM, we’re able to offer the same opportunity to the law-abiding licence-fee payers that some of ‘those in the know’ already have – ie to watch BBC programmes online at a time that suits them.

    As to whether we’ve been open about DRM, all our decisions about iPlayer have been scrutinised by the BBC Trust – the independent body overseeing the BBC. You can read the Trust’s conclusions, including their comments on DRM, at the BBC Trust website: www.bbc.co.uk/bbctru...

    So there’s another side of the debate. As you say, ‘please discuss’!

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  • Message 5. Posted by Robbo (U248392) on Wednesday, 30th May 2007permalink

    You know, I have to air this silly idea because it comes in my head.

    What will happen if the BBC airs or uses conntect that under various rules are restricted to free acces and may NOT be released via things like DRM connect?

    I know this is HIGHLY unlikely and I should probably do so more digging before I ask this question, but I just thought I should air this point to get it over with.

    Some people are crazy after all and insist that their work is always free with no restrictions.


    Though I do wonder how DRM on the iPlayer service will protect those that contriube to BBC programmes.

    complain

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  • Message 6. Posted by Gareth-iPlayerOps (U6799267) on Wednesday, 30th May 2007permalink

    Hello Robbo

    Its an interesting question.

    Technically it is possible, for example, to allow the content to be downloadable for longer (as long as the BBC Trust is ok with that) or to provide a licence that doesn't expire (or has a very long life).

    If its more a case of who can distribute it in the first place - that would come down to contracts - it may be a piece of non exclusive footage for example - in which case its perfectly possible it would also be available elsewhere.

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  • Message 7. Posted by Robbo (U248392) on Wednesday, 30th May 2007permalink

    I guess, if it's only a certain peice of connect (such as a must be free song) the BBC would just have to include and host a free copy of the song, so they all can obtain it, even when the media containing the song expires.

    complain

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  • Message 8. Posted by greenjanner (U4732626) on Wednesday, 30th May 2007permalink

    this is not a suggestion, it just seems the only way to get on here. anyway every time i try to watch a programme that i have down loaded it tells me i haven't got the licence to view the programme. help.

    complain

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  • Message 9. Posted by mcornish (U8182430) on Thursday, 31st May 2007permalink

    Microsoft DRM Is Not The Answer It Causes More Problems Than It Solves. An Old Saying Is "If It Can Be Played It Can Be Copied" A Quick Google Will Give You Numerous Programs That Will Allow You To Copy DRM Protected Material, Some Even Claim They Are Legal Many Are Not But Adding DRM Or Other So Called Protection To Content Just Encourages Hackers To Break It. I Don't Know What The Answer Is At The Moment But DRM Is Just A Pain For Users.

    complain

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  • Message 10. Posted by Cregaune (U8181785) on Thursday, 31st May 2007permalink

    Hi Ali-iPlayerHost,

    Thanks for taking the time to reply. I take your point that the use of DRM is ultimalely driven by the concerns of the rights holders.

    So presumably the rights holders believe that DRM is going to provide some extra protection of their work? This is just not the case for two reasons:

    1) EVERY manifestation of DRM so far has been hacked within hours/days of being released. That's not because the early versions of DRM are particularly weak. It's because the whole concept of DRM as an effective protection mechanism is fundamentally flawed. All DRM 'solutions' require that the end user's playback device is provided with the necessary decryption keys. Those keys HAVE to be stored in memory at some point and they can therefore be read by hacking software.

    2) All the BBC's output is already broadcast without DRM and can therefore be recorded digitally without any DRM protection. The use of DRM on the Iplayer is like trying to plug one hole in a colander. Until the day dawns that all broadcast BBC output is DRM protected, it is completely pointless to include it on the Iplayer.

    What the BBC SHOULD be doing is to provide an alternative to the illegal downloading of programmes from P2P/Usenet sources. The DRM restrictions on the Iplayer blow that possibility out of the water.

    Now, I realise that your forum rules state that posts shouldn't 'condone' any illegal activity; and so I need to say now that I think that downloading material illegally from the Internet is a crime worse, in my opinion, than any of the seven deadly sins that cry out to heaven for forgiveness. But there ARE horrible rotter types out there who couldn't care less. How is the BBC going to convince them to download a DRM infested programme from Iplayer with all the restrictions that involves when the same programme is just as easily downloaded from illegal sources? I think you have your work cut out.




    complain

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  • Message 11. Posted by mcornish (U8182430) on Friday, 1st June 2007permalink

    I Agree With All Your Points Cregaune. DRM Is Just A Pain For Normal Users And Good Sport For The Hackers

    complain

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  • Message 12. Posted by growingdelta (U8157903) on Friday, 1st June 2007permalink

    is it ok to post up the method of how to set kservice to a manual on/off option in windows?

    complain

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  • Message 13. Posted by ttizzy (U8542521) on Saturday, 2nd June 2007permalink

    Now I'm no fan of Windows DRM, but I do kind of understand why the BBC and C4 are using it (rather than nothing) after a friend compared it to a 'keep off the grass' notice on a roped off bit of lawn. It's a pretty pathetic gesture as a notice and rope won't prevent anyone determined from walking on the grass. But despite that, the vast majority of people will accept the request and do as it asks - so the practical upshot is that you probably won't get a football match taking place and trashing your lawn. Anyone really determined to walk on the grass won't be put off by the rope, but then they probably wouldn't be put off by barbed wire either!

    complain

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  • Message 14. Posted by Robbo (U248392) on Saturday, 2nd June 2007permalink

    Ok, my list of "One and Only" type topics we need (offical ones made by the team with only one reason, that should be kept on topic)

    Error Reporting Topics:-
    general errors
    'No licence' errors on all shows
    no shows downloading
    only someshows not downloading
    only some shows not working
    "no licence" errors on shows that worked before problems after crashes

    Which should details of user's set up (build numbers, times, the errors in question, etc)

    So the team can have a base of usable data for problems and can see if say, the licence for a certain show is corrupt, or that a certain download is broken.

    Also, a topic to track users status. Meaning, a list of posts, containing users set up, status, etc. Eg I'd say "Windows XP blah blah, WMP 11 Buld 11.0.xxx blah, firewall XYZ, sometimes shows won't download with this error: "xxxxx" but everyone reports that, all shows that can be download work fine"

    And when someone's detail change, they just request their post is delete "My details have changed, I need to update this post to avoid confusion" etc. So the team can spot an usage trends that may point to issues.

    complain

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  • Message 15. Posted by philosophicalFong (U7901220) on Saturday, 2nd June 2007permalink

    I suppose a good one might be Shows we want to see?

    It might be an idea, atleast in the early stages to see what are popular shows that aren't already listed and available.

    Sort of build up an idea of what people might like to see.

    For instance I saw Jools Holland's show, but none available, there is also no music shows available at all. If a few Beta testers posted saying that they would like to see more music, it will give you a idea towards the trends atleast within the Beta Group about what programs they liked to watch.

    I think the Beta testers on here probably aren't a good mix of the general public, and nor should they be, we aren't 'users' we are 'testers' and there should be a difference.

    For instance, I have downloaded 3 programs with the iPlayer....how many have I actually watched? 0. None of them interested me, I was testing the software, so you can't go by trends of what people are actually getting, because I am sure a few are like me and getting whatever is available just to test out the software.

    So a "What would you like to see?" thread might be a good idea.

    complain

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  • Message 16. Posted by mesmerone (U8123371) on Monday, 4th June 2007permalink

    Now I'm no fan of Windows DRM, but I do kind of understand why the BBC and C4 are using it (rather than nothing) after a friend compared it to a 'keep off the grass' notice on a roped off bit of lawn. It's a pretty pathetic gesture as a notice and rope won't prevent anyone determined from walking on the grass. But despite that, the vast majority of people will accept the request and do as it asks - so the practical upshot is that you probably won't get a football match taking place and trashing your lawn. Anyone really determined to walk on the grass won't be put off by the rope, but then they probably wouldn't be put off by barbed wire either!


    Exactly. The point of DRM isn't that it's uncrackable by a determined hacker group, but that it becomes sufficiently difficult that the average user doesn't bother cracking it because it seems too techy or involves going to internet pages that seem a bit scary. And that's why right holders want it, and why it'd work.

    I can assure you, if the rights holders felt that the DRM was to be cracked by all and sundry, the solution would not be to allow DRM free programmes. It would simply be to not give the BBC the rights to distribute like this at all.

    One would note that under UK law you're only allowed to record programmes for "reasonable" timeshifting purposes too, and that most people in this country who have a tape of something more than a few months old are breaking the law.

    Phazer

    complain

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  • Message 17. Posted by neil-io (U2885101) on Monday, 4th June 2007permalink

    I believe DRM is yet another example of Ludite software vendors shooting themselves in the foot. The arguments for it sound just like "video will kill the record industry" or "" a tape recorder on a record player will harm record sales". History has proved that the opposite is true. Downloads are just another distribution method. There will always be some piracy, but the majority of people want to own the real thing and listening/watching a copy is probably the best way to review before buying. The bottom line with DRM is that they just don't trust us and they're slowing the next evolution of media distribution.

    complain

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  • Message 18. Posted by neil-io (U2885101) on Tuesday, 5th June 2007permalink

    I have another topic for discussion - the peer to Peer client that iPlayer uses. I am uncomfortable with such an invasive software running on my computer without knowing more about it. I discovered it was developed by Kontiki and have researched the company to feel a bit more assured. I understand all the arguments for grid networking, but I would suggest that if iPlayer is going to be acceptable to the general public then there needs to be much more transparenrcy in its operation. As one example, could it ask permission to upload?

    complain

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  • Message 19. Posted by neil-io (U2885101) on Tuesday, 5th June 2007permalink

    Is it possible to upgrade the discussion board so that you can filter and follow a thread?

    complain

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  • Message 20. Posted by Ali - iPlayer Host (U8430072) on Tuesday, 5th June 2007permalink

    Hi neil-io,

    We've recently changed the messageboard so that you can now create your own threads, so you might like to post this message again as a new thread? I'm sure lots of people will have things to say about Kontiki.

    In terms of keeping an eye on specific discussions, you can use the 'Your discussions' link at the top of the page to see all the threads that you've contributed to.

    Hope that's helpful.

    This is a reply to this message.

  • Message 21. Posted by Ali - iPlayer Host (U8430072) on Wednesday, 6th June 2007permalink

    This thread is now closed.

    If you want to see a particular topic covered on the messageboard, please start a new thread in the relevant section using the 'start a conversation' button.

    Thanks for all your suggestions so far!

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