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BBC ERROR ? HD is showing as interlaced, say ADOBE FlashPlayer Engineering

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  • Message 21. Posted by christopher nuuja (U14440141) on Wednesday, 28th April 2010 permalink

    Hi,

    My name is Chris Nuuja and I'm the Adobe Flash Player engineer (actually, an eng manager) Nick has referenced here. Can someone at the BBC please contact me about this issue? My email should be in my registration. I have not been able to determine what Adobe engineer has been in contact with you regarding encoding, but the Flash Player team definitely sees that the content appears to be interlaced. I can't use MediaInfo to confirm a url stream, however. As mentioned, we are using a guest site as we can't access the real site (or iPlayer desktop) from here in the U.S. Perhaps that is part of the problem, we are comparing different things?

    I did log a support request here iplayerhelp.external... a few days ago, but have not received a response. Let me know if there is a more appropriate channel or forum

    thanks
    -chris.

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  • Message 22. Posted by matt (U8621220) on Wednesday, 28th April 2010 permalink

    Hi Chris,
    It can take 8 or 9 days or more sometimes to get a response from the contact form, but hopefully they will respond to your message soon.

    The contact form is the best method of contact with the team and this forum is a good place to keep the iPlayer users up to date on what's happening. Sometimes members of the iPlayer team will reply to messages on here but don't rely on getting a response through the forum.

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  • Message 23. Posted by duck4cover (U14369307) on Wednesday, 28th April 2010 permalink

    Hi Chris,

    Welcome to the boards. Your post suggests that there hasn't been any open dialogue between Adobe and the BBC. I hope you get some meaningful communications from the BBC soon.

    Having been actively involved in some related topics, I'd like to ask a few questions, not to divert any actions for Adobe or to discourage getting Atom based platforms working on BBC's HD, but more as an insight to the mechanisms of how a file's details (like the H264 SPS dump you posted in the Adobe forum) triggers GPU activity.

    Are you implying that if flash can see the H264 dump details it can know that a progressive file can be farmed of to the GPU? And an interlaced cannot?

    Without being an expert on reading that H264 dump, it all looks pretty straight forward information - the sort of information that I'd expect to see (Final cut express has some tunable settings that look similar prior to exporting to file). If the DRM is effecting the dump would you expect it to look exactly the same? I'd have thought the dump would have looked all corrupted. Is this why you suspect it is interlaced - because the whole dump looks completely legible?

    The BBC confirmed that they read the file using MediaInfo (presuming its a H264 dump too) in response to the "proof they are using interlaced" statements. I understand that Adobe Air and its DRM system might be in different business units to Flash, but are you able to create a file based on the H264 dump profile (but obviously using progressive), DRM it and retest it to see if you get a response similar to your post in the Adobe forums? Would the Adobe Air team be able to assist?

    If the threads on these boards about HD had not been so pronounced I would've been oblivious to there being a change in profile, so is there really a big issue at stake here or is it simply a means to fine tune Flash 10.1 to get it back processing BBC's HD content on systems that rely more heavily on GPU that CPU performance.

    Good luck!

    Duck

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  • Message 24. Posted by John99 (U13871221) on Thursday, 29th April 2010 permalink

    Hi Chris,

    Thanks for posting.

    I hope you have by now managed to at least swap email addresses with someone appropriate in the BBC.
    I am sure the Adobe & BBC engineering departments should be able to co-operate; & I would have hoped there were already methods for the two to communicate easily.

    With luck users may now see some progress. There must be quite a sizeble audience looking forward to using iPlayer HD on lower spec systems. In this country iPlayer is very popular, with millions of users (www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/... ).

    Obviously some users who are interested in the technical problems involved with implementing this, and the problems that need to be overcome, so I hope you manage to post again with reports of any progress.

    John

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  • Message 25. Posted by John99 (U13871221) on Thursday, 29th April 2010 permalink

    PS <devil>
    I note the Mods have removed the post by Chris from Adobe Engineering !

    If it is any consolation Moderators have previously moderated the BBCs own posts !

    I did read the post & have no idea what could have been considered contentious or against the house rules, hopefully it will re-appear soon.

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  • Message 26. Posted by John99 (U13871221) on Thursday, 29th April 2010 permalink

    The hidden post has re-appeared

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  • Message 27. Posted by Nick Lowe (U14437004) on Wednesday, 5th May 2010 permalink

    Bumping as we still haven't had any positive noises coming from the BBC.

    I might pen a complaint to the BBC Trust as it seems to be impossible to make any form of meaningful contact with the developers/engineers.

    complain

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  • Message 28. Posted by duck4cover (U14369307) on Wednesday, 5th May 2010 permalink

    Bumping as we still haven't had any positive noises coming from the BBC.


    Probably because they understand its a non issue. I'm not sure which part of your complaint the BBC Trust would be more aghast with - the fact you chose to send the issue to them in the first place, rather than use the BBC complaints system or the fact that it is actually worth the effort for non public release software.

    Look at the trivialities of this whole HD issue and the level of sensationalism and ask yourself - shouldn't you just be watching the 1500Kbps file on low end computers?

    I'd also suggest you read all the release notes for the PC and Mac versions of Flash 10.1. Not only does it exclude a lot capable machines, but they also have to use a very narrowly defined range of video cards, operating systems and drivers.

    Why not bump it or start a new thread when the product actually releases and determine, with the narrowly defined points of entry, if it really is an issue.

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  • Message 29. Posted by John99 (U13871221) on Wednesday, 5th May 2010 permalink

    @ Nick,

    BBC may not have given an answer that you like but the BBC in message #3 did answer the question I originally posed, the BBC confirmed the output is progressive.

    "Duck ..." has provided data about the BBC HD in a dump from Mediainfo in the other thread that we have been posting in: www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mb...
    The dump does confirm, as now expected, and as stated by the BBC, that the HD is progressive when seen by an ordinary UK user.

    Any further progress is going to be dependent on Adobe. Adobe I am sure, by now, will have been in direct contact with the BBC, if they did need any further clarification.

    complain

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  • Message 30. Posted by John99 (U13871221) on Friday, 2nd July 2010 permalink

    @ dave (or anyone else from the BBC) any updates please?

    Does this now work with BBC iPlayer as intended and announced ?

    FlashPlayer 10.1 has now been released and The BBC blog mentions its use in BBC paragraph 9 of "
    Introducing the all new BBC iPlayer ... " - www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/...

    ( as also quoted in message: "Announcement of support for Hardware Acceleration on BBC Blog" - www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mb... )

    The Adobe forum contains a statement from Adobe Flash Player Engineering made Yesterday [1st July]

    Their SPS/PPS header specifies a flag that says the content is interlaced. Or more exactly, can switch to interlaced encoding at any time during playback. ... [ forums.adobe.com/mes... msg#59 ]

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  • Message 31. Posted by John99 (U13871221) on Friday, 2nd July 2010 permalink

    if a having problems with reading message #30 above try instead using link: www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mb...

    No idea why it happens, schizo message board bug has struck again

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  • Message 32. Posted by John99 (U13871221) on Wednesday, 4th August 2010 permalink

    _ Update _
    BBC is obviously trying to help.
    see BBC closed post:
    "Changes to video profiles " - www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mb...

    Which specifically mentions this current thread.

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  • Message 33. Posted by jwsg (U14223122) on Wednesday, 4th August 2010 permalink

    Ok, very early days, but it could be that GPU accel is now happening with unmodified release FLASH 10.1 on new content (re. CPU load on 1k5 h264 live stream IE8 ION)

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  • Message 34. Posted by Dave-iPlayerOps (U8437698) on Wednesday, 4th August 2010 permalink

    Hi jwsg,

    GPU acceleration is enabled on all the PC profiles, 480, 800, 1500 and 2800Kbps and should be evident on tonight's The One Show. Noting that it is live so it will take a little time to deliver before you can test it for yourself.

    Dave

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  • Message 35. Posted by jwsg (U14223122) on Wednesday, 4th August 2010 permalink

    Ok. I was going by results with the 1500K SD live streams (which I didn't even know existed till tonight) as a dip-check. Looking forward to repeating for new on-demand HD content once uploaded

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  • Message 36. Posted by jwsg (U14223122) on Thursday, 5th August 2010 permalink

    Looking at new HD uploads (One Show) it does appear that unmodified Flash 10.1 acclerates once again.

    However one observation - also noted by others - is that lipsync is fragile - a browser reload helps.

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