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You are here > Five Live message boards > Deleted > Team Time Trial - your thoughts?

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Team Time Trial - your thoughts?

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Message 1 - posted by Chris R - BBC Sport (U1657099) , Jul 5, 2005

We've just had some interesting thoughts sent through our interactive stage guide for today - news.bbc.co.uk/sport...

Will Discovery win to make it three TTTs in five years for Lance's team? Who else will challenge them? Many are saying CSC will go well, not just to hang onto Zabriskie's jersey but also obviously for Basso.

And what about the massed ranks of T-Mobile? Can they get over Saturday's massive blow for Ullrich? I wouldn't be surprised to see Phonak go well and don't forget Credit Agricole won the event in 2001 - this year they have an in-form Bodrogi to drive them on.

Give us your thoughts here - we'll put the best of them into our live coverage when it starts soon.
       

Message 2 - posted by boks4eva (U1666800) , Jul 5, 2005

I would say Discovery. They have varied sprinters. Phonak possibly with Hunter and Landis

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Message 3 - posted by Chris R - BBC Sport (U1657099) , Jul 5, 2005

Our live coverage is now up and running at news.bbc.co.uk/sport...

What do people think about the TTT rules these days? The runners-up are docked a a maximum of 20 seconds, third place a maximum of 30 seconds and so on.

Too complicated? Or sensible to keep the race a little more compact than it might be?

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Message 4 - posted by JCF_Lucy (U1652066) , Jul 5, 2005

Discovery look the strongest team they always done well in the team time trial and it always provides Armstrong with an advantage over his rivals. I'd be very surprised if they didn't finish in the top 2 today. The only other team I can really see beating them are CSC, with the likes of Zabriskie, Voigt and Julich all working to keep Basso in contention for the overall yellow jersey and Zabriskie in it for the moment they'll be very hard to beat.

Looking at the standings from Stage 1 out of the top 20: 4 were from CSC, 4 from Discovery and only 2 from both phonak and T-Mobile. I've a terrible feeling Ullrich and Vino will be losing more time to Armstrong and Basso today unless something exceptional happens.

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Message 5 - posted by bioniclee (U1672494) , Jul 5, 2005

I think the new rules are totally unfair. Yes it might mAke the results closer and therefore more interesting overall. But why should the better team be penalized for being better than the rest, It was only brought in to keep a check on Armstrongs dominance. They might aswell scrap the team time trial altogether.

They should therefore introduce maximum time losses on mountain stages aswell then. If you are going to penalize a strong team in the time trial it is only fair to penalize a team made up of predominately climbers etc. e.g "Mayo's team"

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Message 6 - posted by Chilean_Llama (U1647784) , Jul 5, 2005

It's the only visible team event in the whole race.

As the race is geared around the individual, with the old rules, too much time was potentially lost or gained.

The new rules help someway towards not having the race won or lost too early. Still a maximum loss of 3 minutes is still alot of time to make up elsewhere. I'd like to see this reduced a little bit.

The team standing doesn't have the same significance as the indiviual classification, perhaps it should have a more important role in the TDF.

Nevertheless, the TTT is a great spectacle, and I'm glad they have kept it as part of the Tour.

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Message 7 - posted by Chris R - BBC Sport (U1657099) , Jul 5, 2005

Whatever the rights and wrongs it looks like it's going to work to the benefit of Saunier Duval and AG2R.

As I write those two teams have already lost more than 2.5 minutes to current leaders at the finish Davitamon, and they lost nearly a minute themselves to Liberty in the first 25km.

I tend to agree with Chilean_Llama that there's no reason why a team event like this shouldn't have slightly different rules - and of course these are maximum losses so if someone does only finish two seconds down that's all they'll lose.

T-Mobile looking pretty good - nine seconds behind Liberty at 25km.....

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Message 8 - posted by rianlesia (U1686903) , Jul 5, 2005

As regards the rule changes, just wait until next year once the French stop changing things in an attempt to nullify a great athlete. They try every year,... and they fail.

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Message 9 - posted by Chris R - BBC Sport (U1657099) , Jul 5, 2005

I wonder whether CSC are going to suffer more this year?

Perhaps Discovery are conserving energy in the early stages but CSC are 15 seconds faster after 25km.

Lance's team are only joint third with T-Mobile with Liberty second fastest

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Message 10 - posted by skynotes (U1686931) , Jul 5, 2005

I've always thought the TTT to be a terrible injustice. I remember in the 1980s when some TTTs stymied potential Tour winners and they spent the rest of the race trying to make up the deficit on the general classification to no avail . . . always thought the TTT should be scrapped because of that.

also, the TTT created an artificial look to the G.C. because most of the riders in the first squad home occupied the top places for nearly a week until things blew apart in the first mountain stages.

after all that said, I think the current system is fairer.

re: the French changing things, another episode I recall was when Sean Kelly and Fignon tied on time in a time trial and Fignon got yellow by virtue of him being one-thousandth of a second faster than Kelly! The first and only time I think that times have been split to that level of detail. I can't reprint Kelly's comments to the French TV afterwards!



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Message 11 - posted by Chilean_Llama (U1647784) , Jul 5, 2005

It's probably done more to help the less effective teams in the TTT than it has disadvantaged the top riders.

As regards the rule changes, just wait until next year once the French stop changing things in an attempt to nullify a great athlete. They try every year,... and they fail.

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Message 12 - posted by Chilean_Llama (U1647784) , Jul 5, 2005

Agreed skynotes. I just like the TTT for the spectacle of it.

I've always thought the TTT to be a terrible injustice. I remember in the 1980s when some TTTs stymied potential Tour winners and they spent the rest of the race trying to make up the deficit on the general classification to no avail . . . always thought the TTT should be scrapped because of that.

also, the TTT created an artificial look to the G.C. because most of the riders in the first squad home occupied the top places for nearly a week until things blew apart in the first mountain stages.

after all that said, I think the current system is fairer.

re: the French changing things, another episode I recall was when Sean Kelly and Fignon tied on time in a time trial and Fignon got yellow by virtue of him being one-thousandth of a second faster than Kelly! The first and only time I think that times have been split to that level of detail. I can't reprint Kelly's comments to the French TV afterwards!



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Message 13 - posted by Mogul-Basher (U1516757) , Jul 5, 2005


I think the new rules do achieve the objective of reducing the potential losses in the early stages of the race. However, saying the original system was unfair to weaker teams to me ignores the massive contribution the strength of the teams have on the individual classification.

The yellow jersey may be captured by extra-ordinary individual performances on a few stages, but it is the day in, day out efforts of that riders team to carve out the opportunuties and protect the gains made over following days that determine whether it is retained to Paris. I am no expert, but I doubt there can many, if any, instances of the tour being won be a strong individual in a weak team.

Perhaps the answer is to have the same classification rules for the TTT as for the other stages? That way the influence of team strength is, theoretically, no more than in any other stage. The strong rider in a weak team can use the other riders to pace the early part and then break away in the later stages to record a better individual time that he otherwise might have done.


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Message 14 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Jul 5, 2005

Agreed skynotes. I just like the TTT for the spectacle of it.

I've always thought the TTT to be a terrible injustice. I remember in the 1980s when some TTTs stymied potential Tour winners and they spent the rest of the race trying to make up the deficit on the general classification to no avail . . . always thought the TTT should be scrapped because of that.

also, the TTT created an artificial look to the G.C. because most of the riders in the first squad home occupied the top places for nearly a week until things blew apart in the first mountain stages.

after all that said, I think the current system is fairer.

re: the French changing things, another episode I recall was when Sean Kelly and Fignon tied on time in a time trial and Fignon got yellow by virtue of him being one-thousandth of a second faster than Kelly! The first and only time I think that times have been split to that level of detail. I can't reprint Kelly's comments to the French TV afterwards!



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But what I don't understand is why put in a long prologue which basically cost the likes of Mayo any shot at overall & opened up huge gaps, but at the same time then limit the maximum gap in the TTT.

Although I do agree. I enjoy watching it but it does give a very artifical feel to the overall.

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Message 15 - posted by rianlesia (U1686903) , Jul 5, 2005

So true colours come to light and this is going to be a battle among Discovery, CSC and Telecom. A race, in other words. Ullrich isn't washed up, no one is handing anything to Armstrong and a handful of others could end up in Paris wearing yellow. This is what makes the tour so special.

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Message 16 - posted by jmb (U1574246) , Jul 5, 2005

tour-de-france.franc... see the crash happen with french commentary!!

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Message 17 - posted by mikyh59 (U1687223) , Jul 5, 2005

help somebody please - time deficits reduced to 20secs then 30 secs etc if Zabriskie was 2secs ahead and DSC won by 2 secs why is Zabriskie now 1m 26 sec behind Lance???

though hey who cares - Lance is back on top with healthy lead - any bets against 7?

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Message 18 - posted by Chilean_Llama (U1647784) , Jul 5, 2005

Discovery finished 2s ahead of CSC.

However Zabriskie crashed outside of the last 1km and didn't finish with the team. He is therefore credited with his actual finish time, 1m24s slower than the CSC team.

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Message 19 - posted by mikyh59 (U1687223) , Jul 5, 2005

ahhhh - thanks!

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Message 20 - posted by dublow (U1670319) , Jul 5, 2005

You're not the only one confused - I thought that the idea of a TTT was that the whole team got the same time. But if he gets his actual time that's fair enough!

Always good to watch the TTT but why have limitations on lost time etc if it doesn't apply to any other stages? The sprinters could say that they only want to lose 3 mins in the mountains otherwise there would be too big a gap!!

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