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There seems to be a consensus on these boards that Basso, Ullrich et al are guilty. In reality, Basso hasn’t as yet been charged with anything and the Danish press report that the president of the Italian cycling federation has stated, that from the documents he have seen, there are not sufficient elements to accuse Basso. The president thinks that Fuentes could be fabricating the relationship with Basso, to make himself more important in certain circles.
From what I have read I don’t see that there is a sufficient case to ruin a man’s career. Nevertheless, whether or not Basso is guilty in practice, I find it hard to believe that the authorities will be able to present a sufficiently water tight case in the absence of a ‘smoking gun’.

Even a DNA test would be inconclusive. If Basso delivers a DNA sample and it turns out not to match Fuentes blood bank, all those on a witch hunt will still say that the reason is that Basso's blood was not present because it was delivered to some race he took part in. And if they find blood from Basso without any illegal drugs in it, it does not prove that he was doped by Fuentes; he could have (say) given it to him for legitimate scientific reasons to improve his training. Just because Fuentes is involved in blood doping doesn’t mean that’s all he did. Even if they find ‘doped’ blood from Basso in the lab of Fuentes it could be that Basso gave it to him for reasons than doping and Fuentes ‘experimented’ on it without the knowledge of Basso. I’m not saying these are likely scenarios, but I will be surprised if he can be convicted on the facts that are currently public.

Yes. Despite all this none of them had the guts to come forward for a DNA test.
They are suspended and expelled by their team, I am quit sure they know a little more than we do.
We can always find an excuse for a rider we like. But the facts stack against them.
I would say let them all come forward and explain what the hell is going on. I am tired of talking about cycling and doping together.

Too quick to judge Basso.............we'll find out soon enough. One thing is for sure, the italian cycling fed has seen the dossier presented by UCI and instigated proceedings. Riis has seen the dossier and is slowly washing his hands of Basso. Basso himslef has been less than vocal and adopted a rabbit in the headlights approach. Only way we will know is when the case starts.

Although I should clarify that by saying that Basso will be banned. As far as I remember under the code of conduct even a strong suspicion is sufficient for a two year ban.

Whether the evidence is water-tight enough for Basso to be sent to jail is another matter entirely.

"...if a link is established between Basso and Fuentes (or any rider for that matter) then they have to be banned. It's becoming more obvious (as he himself said)that Fuentes ran a systematic doping scheme although he preferred to refer to it as treating his patients..."

Is this really the type of system that we want?

Does this not lend itself to far more abuse by establishing such an authoritarian and autocratic system that presupposes...guilty before proving your innocence?

Is this not akin to racial profiling in terms of relying on blanket assumptions rather than specific actions? Is it different than a police officer standing at an intersection handing out traffic fines to all drivers of red cooper vehicles because statistical evidence at the police department suggests that they account for 72% of accidents in an intersection?

I don't think it's the sort of system we want but in these circumstances I think it's the sort of system we have to have to clean up the sport. It's not ideal but how else do you get rid of the suspicion over certain performances.

Fuentes has effectively admitted he doped his patients but called it treating them. The question to ask would be 'why else would you be going to see Fuentes?' he doesn't seem to have a reputation in cycling for anything else at the moment.

I appreciate where you're coming from in terms of tarring everyone with the same brush and guilt by association but in THESE circumstances there is, in my opinion, a doping factory and association with that and the other circumstantial evidence that is coming with it should lead to a ban for me.

I'm probably contradicting myself in something I've said in another thread but I think the Fuentes stuff is far too far reaching not too be ignored.

Sort of system we want?, you are making the situation and argument more complex than it needs to be. Outlaw the use of non UCI sanctioned medics and then anyone caught liasing with the likes of fuentes gets banned. Cycling is at a cross-roads my friend. If we want to clean it up we have to get medieval on the dopers asses, its the only way.

I agree with you on the broader scheme WADA stuff but Basso isn't on that yet - he's caught up in the Fuentes side of things and he's already passed the doping controls in place despite (it would seem from what's been in the media) having been doped whilst winning the Giro. Is it right to let someone connected to such a huge scandal in such a huge way race? No in my opinion.

Going forward it seems that the WADA way may well be the best way forward but for now what else can you do with people linked to Fuentes and the whole dopind programme he was involved in.

And I agree with you on the DS and team point too - the whole 'I didn't know what they were up to' doesn't make sense.

I have a feeling that Basso may well be innocent - as Bartali says it may be that Fuentes was involved in some sort of self-aggrandisment. Remember Fuentes assertion about names "still riding" and names on the list that he never treated - a peculiar man. Before we knew the extent of Ullrich's involvement, I had wondered whether the reality of the list was: - a whole pile of so-so riders, oh and by the way: the 2 biggest names in the sport! The 2 big favourites for the TdF - a conspiracy to destabilise the French Grand Boucle?.... purely conjecture of course.

Want to make myself clear on this that I'm only advocating this in relation to the whole Fuentes affair. I agree in the normal run of things it is a draconian system but what else can you do in light of what's happened in Spain and latterly in Germany. It seems there was a very complex doping practice going on that had already evaded (in some cases) the existing doping controls.