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You are here > Five Live message boards > Deleted > Blood Doping: If it's your own blood why is it cheeting?

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Blood Doping: If it's your own blood why is it cheeting?

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Message 1 - posted by josef72 (U3539412) , Jun 28, 2006

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Message 2 - posted by VeloSaint (U1701707) , Jun 28, 2006

Do you think extracting your own blood, having it spun a bit* in a machine to boost the oxygen carrying blood cells and then reinjected is not cheating?

(* okay probably a bit more technical then that!)

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Message 3 - posted by josef72 (U3539412) , Jun 28, 2006

When you put it like that, then yes I agree.

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Message 4 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Jun 28, 2006

It depends on the sport. Chelsea have been doing it for the last couple of seasons and FIFA have said that it is ok to spin blood.

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Message 5 - posted by forza_petacchi (U4316326) , Jun 28, 2006

This is why autologous blood doping is illegal:
When you remove blood from your body, less oxygen gets to your muscles, and there is more CO2 in your bloodstream. This causes the kidneys to produce EPO (Erythropoetin) which stimulates the bone marrow to produce more red blood cells, bringing your body back to homeostasis (a relatively standard state). Then you add the stored blood back to your blood stream, which increases your hematocrit (the percentage of red blood cells in a given volume of blood). Atheletes with high hematocrit, especially those who live at or train at high altitude, perform better in endurance sports (like cycling or running) because they can transport more oxygen to the muscles. This is because red blood cells transport oxygen by means of Hemoglobin, so more red blood cells means more oxygen transport.
Therefore, atheletes who engage in autologous blood doping are cheating because they are enhancing their performance in an artificial manner
Hope that clears it up!
A little biology never hurt anyone..... smiley

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Message 6 - posted by VeloSaint (U1701707) , Jun 28, 2006

Naspa, do you know if fifa okayed it purely on the basis of injury recovery? or can teams use it irrespective?

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Message 7 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Jun 28, 2006

football.guardian.co...

It seems to be a grey area but one which is likely to come under greater scrutiny.

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Message 8 - posted by bergaretxebe (U4486432) , Jun 28, 2006

Fifa has agreed the AMA and IOC rules, so itīs going to be illegal very soon,

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Message 9 - posted by mowcopmick (U1960430) , Jun 28, 2006

So the effect of taking EPO is similar to doing altitude training then? Although it artificially enhances your performance in relation to not spending time at altitude, if you went to Columbia to live or train for a few weeks instead it would deliver a similar effect.

What I'm getting at is going to Columbia to live or train can't be banned so some would argue neither should EPO.

Anyone ever read a book called The Natural Athlete?? Similar concept.

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Message 10 - posted by grimpeur (U3434420) , Jun 28, 2006

Hi mowcopmick. I understand that Paula Radcliffe has a house in Denver, Colorado and Font Remeu in the Pyrenees, perhaps she is "cheating". All the Kenyans and Ethiopians are "cheating" also. How dare they be born at altitude?

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Message 11 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Jun 28, 2006

It is perhaps the difference between something achieved naturally and something achieved synthetically.

What takes weeks to achieve with altitude training can be achieved in hours with an EPO shot.

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Message 12 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Jun 28, 2006

My outlook is somewhat cynnical at this point...Apparently, everybody in the sport is doping or cheating in some form...So, if everybody is doing it, then may the best man win...

I'm an American and was a big LA supporter over the years...If LA won 7 tours while doping who's to say he wasn't the best man if everybody else was doing it too????

Its the same thing in track and field and distance running, cross country skiiing and any endurance sport...

In my opinion, all of the world class athletes are cheating...I'm that cynnical...I've stopped caring about who cheats...I just assume they all do and enjoy the competition...

Say what you will about LA's probable doping or EPO use...he was something amazing in this tours...watching him excellerate and blow away his rivals on the climbs was always a kick for me...Anyone who thinks his rivals weren't doping is naive.

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Message 13 - posted by mootaineer (U4580504) , Jun 28, 2006

This is an interesting thread.
I've had more time to think about this one (can't think straight about non-work subjects when I'm in the office).

I don't argue the fact that transfusions are cheating (under current rules), although I think this has to be decided after agreement on what is acceptable/legal.
However, should it be allowed?

Drugs generally tend to get banned because they cause the body harm.
EPO, steroids, amphetamines, etc are all banned because of the risk that riders can use them by themselves, resulting in a likely "more is better" strategy which can lead to overdose with resultant side effects.

I don't suppose that blood transfusions can be done by yourself on yourself?
Are they that dangerous that they should be banned?
Does it increase the likelyhood of blood clots, similar to EPO?

What constitutes high risk?

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Message 14 - posted by Gretzkysoffice (U2269859) , Jun 29, 2006

I saw a point raised in a newspaper a few years ago (I think it was the Sunday Times) that said there should be 2 Tours. One for clean riders and one for riders who can take anything they like. Then see which one people watch!

I am assuming it was somewhat tongue-in-cheek but it raises an interesting question

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Message 15 - posted by mootaineer (U4580504) , Jun 29, 2006

...but how do you keep the dopers from competing in the clean race?

Wouldn't that lead to the same problem that we have now?
=o]

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Message 16 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Jun 29, 2006

Mootaineer - Manzano who first broke this story (he was dismissed by the cycling authorities as a bitter ex-pro). He tells a story about how he was given the wrong blood. As a result he almost died from it.

I imagine that messing around with blood also increases the risks of hepatitis etc

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Message 17 - posted by mootaineer (U4580504) , Jun 29, 2006

That's true naspa!
I hadn't factored in the operational risks that could occur with the transfusions.

Often happens to me at work...giving my colleagues the wrong tea, etc...

I wonder whether these sorts if things can really be monitored though.
It may be possible to monitor the use of drugs based on scientific tests but can you monitor rider actions?
Perhaps the UCI/WADA/etc should just say "ok" to transfusions and let the cyclists take on some of the responsibility for a change so that the authorities can just concentrate on use of drugs in the sport.

Anyway I don't have a solution.

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Message 18 - posted by naspa (U1648370) , Jun 29, 2006

If you are interested there is an interview with Manzano here.

www.cyclingnews.com/...

Mootaineer - the biggest problem is the attitude of the peleton and the authorities. Look at how the federations responded to whistleblowers like Gaumont, Manzano and Simeoni. All have been abused and threatened. All have been cut out of the peleton.

When Manzano first broke the story about blood-doping in Spanish cycling the attitude of the Spanish Fed was to charge him with bringing cycling into disrepute!!!!

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Message 19 - posted by mootaineer (U4580504) , Jun 29, 2006

I have to say that this reminds me of Kimmage's story.

The only bit I'd disagree with though is when he says that the "rider is the least person responsible".
I can understand it must be difficult but I think everyone has a voice (within the team).
If most riders said "no" I think it would be team managers/directors/coaches/soigneurs on the backfoot.

So this could mean either:
1) most people accept the use of drugs and will not say no (ie everyone has to live with it)
or
2) Most people say "no" to drug use - in which case that rider should change teams

Still doesn't help the whistleblower though...

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Message 20 - posted by smarauder68 (U3346753) , Jun 29, 2006

At this point with all the evidence and allegations, I think we should all just assume that EVERY rider in the peleton is doping and enjoy the race...Put me in the group that favors legalization of doping...If you can't stop them from doping, just regulate it!

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