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Message 1 - posted by Mackem_FL
(U1651698)
, Aug 9, 2006
Some people have aimed a lot of heavy criticism Jenson Buttons way concerning the way he reneged on his Williams contract. It was a long drawn out affair with good old JB looking very sullied in some peoples eyes. I felt quite the opposite, I had a lot of admiration for a guy who was only guilty of wanting to be in a car capable of winning races and perhaps the odd WDC too. But this post is not about Button, so please do not turn it into a Button thread. This post is about the drivers who have sold out for money. The latest one has to be Mark Webber. Though there are a lot of things that we don’t know (and thus make my assumptions false), it does appear that Webber had the world at his feet as far as car choice was concerned. He could have went to McLaren and had the two times (probably) world champion to gauge his skills against. He would have been in one of the top teams, and most certainly a platform to launch a challenge at the WDC. He also appeared to have the option of going to Renault. One of the top two teams right now as far as performance and results are concerned. In Fisi, he would have had a team mate he could (if he was as good as he thinks he is) have beaten easily and have asserted himself as no.1 at Renault. Certainly he would have had an excellent opportunity to fight for the F1 crown, which is what it is all about isn’t it? But no, he decided to go to RedBull. The team he left just a few years ago as it did not give him the platform to fight for a world crown. Okay it was called Jaguar then, but the prospects of winning anything in that car are not that much better than when he left. So from the information I have, I can only deduce that Webber only moved to RedBull because of the money. I understand it is what makes the world go around, but I have more admiration for a driver that moves for the opportunity to become the no.1 at what he does than for a man that changes to fatten his wallet!
Of course, there are things that happen behind the scenes that we know nothing of, but on the surface, give me a man wanting to win the championship and not the lottery any day.
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Message 2 - posted by Optimistic Dave
(U948110)
, Aug 9, 2006
Who says he had offers from McLaren and Renault?
Can you evidence this?
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Message 3 - posted by JasonSwales
(U1742762)
-Five Live F1 Producer, Aug 9, 2006
I can honestly say from what I know there were no offers from Renault or McLaren. There is always a possiblility that Webber may move to Renault in the future if you bear in mind that Fisi's new contract is only for 2007.
The other thing to think about is that next year's Red Bull car will have been designed by Adrian Newey with an almost unlimited budget.
The car will also have either a ferrari or renault engine.
I am not sure it will be an instant race winner, but I think aiming for top five is a good shout.
Webber is a very switched on guy and I would trust him on his decisions as he obviously knows a lot more than any of us here...
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Message 4 - posted by Mackem_FL
(U1651698)
, Aug 9, 2006
I put a disclaimer in my post stating that my opinion is purely based on what we/I (think) we know. Word on the street (as it were)was that McLaren and Renault were after the guy.
I accept that with a new designer and lots of money they may do well, but remember Toyota has a lot of money invested too!
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Message 5 - posted by JasonSwales
(U1742762)
-Five Live F1 Producer, Aug 9, 2006
Toyota did have lots of money but to be honest they had no-one there who knew how to spend it properly...
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Message 6 - posted by oldBoy
(U1666976)
, Aug 9, 2006
I have no idea what possibilities Webber had, but RedBull are an ambitious team that is investing in all sorts of ways to realise those ambitions. The pairing with DC is an intriguing one and they will both push each other on. I expect the team to be performing much more strongly next year (although not at WCC level). Next year is likely (unless something odd happens) to be DC's last season which would leave Webber as the lead driver to push for that last step up to the very top of the grid.
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Message 7 - posted by Mackem_FL
(U1651698)
, Aug 9, 2006
To be honest, I cannot see DC pushing Mark too hard. I think it will be easy for Webber to firmly establish himself as No.1, after that maybe RedBull challenging for the 'best of the midpack' title and nothing more....but hey, if I am wrong, it would not be the first time! Oh and Jason....where were you at Indy, I never got my t-shirt! 
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Message 8 - posted by JasonSwales
(U1742762)
-Five Live F1 Producer, Aug 9, 2006
I was at Indy mackem, sorry about the tshirt but I was actually in a lot of pain as I dis-located my wrist that weekend so spent most of my time in the commentary box!
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Message 9 - posted by Mackem_FL
(U1651698)
, Aug 9, 2006
Ahhhhh...well if you noticed a huge St George opposite the Honda garage and in the upper tier.....that was me and my party!
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Message 10 - posted by Kop-alonso
(U4021818)
, Aug 9, 2006
I think Webber & Dc will thrive - they both talk with a lack of BS, & will work well together
Also remeber Mark will already know several members of the team who stayed on from the Jag days..
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Message 11 - posted by actuaria
(U2244060)
, Aug 9, 2006
The simple fact is JB should never have signed a year in advance. A lot can happen, and it did with BMW pulling out. Alonso I think may be lucky with McLaren, because he signed on the understanding he'd be sitting in an Adrian Newey designed, hugely fast car. Incidentally, that's what Webber has signed for Red Bull for.
It's a sad, sad state of affairs at Williams when one of their drivers leaves to go up the grid and joins Red Bull, and Williams can't afford to pay Webber's wages.
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Message 12 - posted by Mackem_FL
(U1651698)
, Aug 9, 2006
I have to agree. I am a big fan of Frank Williams and his team, and it is a shame to have seen them sink so low. I felt the same after Colin Chapman died and the demise of his Lotus team under the useless control of Peter (does he still have a hole in his ass) Collins!
Williams are not quite dead yet, I am hoping they have the resources to pull themselves out of the poop!
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Message 13 - posted by pitbull77
(U3546453)
, Aug 9, 2006
In Webbers defence I don't think there was an offer from McLaren. Reading F1 mag when he first started and was rookie of the year in the Minardi, he spoke of his choice to have Falv as his manager. MW states that Flav came to him and he could get him a drive anywhere except McLaren as he and Ron don't see eye to eye ( you can add Jean to that list now too). So lets forget McLaren. I think Renault is still an otion that Flav might keep up his sleeve as there is no mention of length of MW's contract. So Fisi gone, MW in...possibly. I think he has made a good move with Newey on board and may have been the best option. Also webber has just come out and said that if he could have stayed at Williams for the rest of his career he would have. He loved it there and has immense admiration for Frank, the problem is, as stated in an above message its about winning the WDC, and sadly at present Webber is not in a position to wait around and must strike while the iron is hot. I would not rule out a move back to Williams at the end of his career. Maybe y then Williams will be back to where they reightfully belong.
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Message 14 - posted by yeoldetifosi
(U3247598)
, Aug 9, 2006
To be honest, I cannot see DC pushing Mark too hard. I think it will be easy for Webber to firmly establish himself as No.1, after that maybe RedBull challenging for the 'best of the midpack' title and nothing more....but hey, if I am wrong, it would not be the first time!Quoted from
this message
Agreed. I don't think Newey is a miracle worker, neither do I feel that DC is the most 'driven' at the moment and Webber only has to be quicker than DC to keep his rep intact. It is a pity because I really expected him to have pushed for a Renault drive and the chance of a serious championship run next year. So unless he knows a really big secret then, like mackem, I think he woke up and smelled the money.
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Message 15 - posted by vrooom
(U3238074)
, Aug 10, 2006
I think that RBR will have a lot of potential next year for all the reasons discussed previously. You rarely know who's going to be dominant over the course of the next season before all the cars have been developed etc. Renault could take a step back, Ferrari might lose MS, Brawn, Todt, etc and so it goes on...
I reckon that DC will push MW - he's a solid driver, perhaps not quite as naturally gifted as some of the others, but I reckon his RBR has been 'punching above its weight' all season. Also, I bet he has a great relationship with Newey, the overall atmosphere in RBR seems to be pretty cool... For me, it all adds up to _a lot_ of potential.
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Message 16 - posted by Jyvaskyla (BEng)
(U3841658)
, Aug 10, 2006
Red Bull will do better than McLaren next season
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Message 17 - posted by Gwyn Evans
(U692897)
, Aug 10, 2006
It will be interesting to see, but my expectation is that DC should be able to give a good account of himself still.
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Message 18 - posted by dj_mcav
(U1771278)
, Aug 10, 2006
Sorry - DC is not "driven" at the moment!!?? He's the most determined driver on the grid. Lets face it - he's driving better than the Red Bull car is capable off. Lets see what happens next year - but I do expect DC to out drive, outpace and outscore Webber. For anyone looking for an excuse if this happens - it will be because mark is not used to the car.... got that? not...used...to...the....car... 
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Message 19 - posted by checkered
(U1982675)
, Aug 10, 2006
I'm getting a slight
whiff of "early 90's Benetton" from RBR these days. There's not an outfit stronger out there that Renault could ally themselves with in 2007. Except maybe Williams, but they went their own way. There wouldn't even be a huge embarrasment, IMO, if RBR beat the manufacturer every once in a while - unlike what is the case with Ferrari, whose rep rides on winning by themselves.
True, Newey doesn't always get it right (or the teams don't quite know what to make of his designs) but he's done it very often, still. Though I'm more "emotionally attached" to Williams (and I have yet to drink even a sip of any canned energy drink), I can't fault Mark going to RBR either. Just one of those things, and Williams will go through a transitional period with Toyota and hopefully emerge rejuvenated.
The start of that partnership will be meager. As I've understood it, Wurz will only earn money of scored championship points (25.000$ a piece, a risk free approach from the team) and by being allowed to sell off a part of the advertising space in his overalls to personal sponsors. Privateer spirit!
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Message 20 - posted by Mackem_FL
(U1651698)
, Aug 10, 2006
Agreed. I don't think Newey is a miracle worker, neither do I feel that DC is the most 'driven' at the moment and Webber only has to be quicker than DC to keep his rep intact.
It is a pity because I really expected him to have pushed for a Renault drive and the chance of a serious championship run next year. So unless he knows a really big secret then, like mackem, I think he woke up and smelled the money.Quoted from
this message
Thats how it looks on the surface. I felt that Webber was Renault bound for sure....unless Kimi had the seat.
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