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Message 1 - posted by fascinating
(U1944795)
, Aug 19, 2008
...after trigger-happy tank crew killed 9 unarmed people, ie 8 Palestinians and 1 cameraman. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/... |
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Message 2 - posted by happy4andrew
(U13037333)
, Aug 19, 2008
Well there's a turn up for the books!
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Message 3 - posted by Mr Edwards
(U3815709)
, Aug 19, 2008
I can't imagine mistaking a camera tripod for an anti tank weapon, but I'm not driving a tank. I'm sure it's different if one has to make decisions in a split second.
Unlike many other countries, the Israeli courts do NOT have a tendency to whitewash the actions of members of its own armed forces (when Israeli soldiers act unlawfully, they are punished and the courts will not allow cover ups, no matter how much the government might want them to). This has clearly been investigated and the tank crew re-acted to a perceived danger.
It is a tragedy that these people died but we need to accept that sometimes people make honest mistakes. Not every death is the result of malice.
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Message 4 - posted by happy4andrew
(U13037333)
, Aug 19, 2008
Mistaken identity perhaps. There was a case of a South African farmer shooting a young boy. He said he thought it was a dog. I am not sure why he would want to shoot a dog but there you are. Maybe the fellow in the tank was afraid he might be shot. I know if I were driving a tank down the high street and someone aimed something at me I would seriously consider depoaiting some heavy ordnance in their direction. There is a war out there and it's dog shoot dog. It is easy to forget that in the cosy confines of a discussion forum.
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Message 5 - posted by simcha
(U4579656)
, Aug 19, 2008
This tank crew were operating in a war zone it wouldn't be the first time that terrorists had fired on tanks.
War and morality don't mix it would be nice if they could allways fire a warning shot and be 100% certain that only the terrorists would be killed but war is not like that especially urban warfare where the battlefield is the streets where the inocents live as well as the terrorists.
Thats how it is in war.
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Message 6 - posted by Rosie IV
(U2959985)
, Aug 19, 2008
Tue, 19 Aug 2008 11:18 GMT This was already been discussed at length last week www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mb...therefore I cannot see the point in dredging it up again. This is a reply to this message
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Message 7 - posted by happy4andrew
(U13037333)
, Aug 19, 2008
preee-cisely Simcha. Though isn't one person's terrorist another person's freedom fighter? Or was Archbiship Tutu living in a different world?
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Message 8 - posted by josephBV
(U12975560)
, Aug 19, 2008
<<was Archbiship Tutu living in a different world?>>
Very much so.
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Message 9 - posted by Brandon
(U11763530)
, Aug 19, 2008
//I can't imagine mistaking a camera tripod for an anti tank weapon, but I'm not driving a tank. I'm sure it's different if one has to make decisions in a split second.//
Why couldn't they have fired warning shots?
"The incident, which Shana caught on film before his death, shows the tanks fired no warning shots and there was no other fighting."
"there is no record of Palestinian militants using such a system before"
"In the previous half-hour Shana's car, marked with TV and Press stickers, had driven within 700 metres of the tanks"
//the Israeli courts do NOT have a tendency to whitewash the actions of members of its own armed forces //
This didn't go to court and the Israeli military do get away with all kinds of things.How many of them have ended up in prison for killing Palestinians illegally?
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Message 10 - posted by John-Wragg
(U1653814)
, Aug 19, 2008
Im Gr8
Re your `Why couldn't they have fired warning shots?'
Most have long since forgotten when US troops killed an entire family in Iraq at a check point in 2004 and a US marine was heard to utter `you just killed an entire family because you did not fire `warning shots'.
Or the tent incident, or the US killing of Iraqi police at a check point - same thing, and so on and so on and so on.
BTW the 2004 check point incident was because the `halt at check point' sign, was in English.
Warning shots are not in the `US rules of engagement', only the `PR impact'. Its probably the same for any other `killing machines', be they US, Israeli, UK or the bad guys.
In a sense this is understandable. Self preservation comes first.
Get used to it.
J
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Message 11 - posted by happy4andrew
(U13037333)
, Aug 19, 2008
Not quite Joseph. There are similarities. The people of South Africa were fighting for freedoms against an opperssive regime. The Palestinians are fighting for freedoms against an oppressive regime. That is a perspective, whether you agree or not. This is why labels such as "terrorist" are not helpful. If the sylogism becomes "Terrorists are bad. My enemies are bad. Therefore, my enemies are terrorists".
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Message 12, Aug 19, 2008
This posting has been hidden during moderation because it broke the House Rules in some way. This is a reply to this message
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Message 13 - posted by josephBV
(U12975560)
, Aug 19, 2008
<<fighting for freedoms against an opperssive regime>>
By the same token you would agree that the IDF could claim they are doing the same to guarantee the freedoms of Israelis to go about their business free from the fear of incoming shells. Anyway, this a minor territorial dispute blown out of all proportion by interested parties. I don't live there and shouldn't perhaps comment - but that's my take on it.
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Message 14 - posted by Handyman
(U6982759)
, Aug 19, 2008
/////The people of South Africa were fighting for freedoms against an opperssive regime/////
A REGIME THAT EXISTED IN THE COUNTRY TO WHICH THEY LIVE IN!!!
/////The Palestinians are fighting for freedoms against an oppressive regime/////
A 'regime' that belongs to a totally different country from the one that Palestinians are living in.
What are they fighting for when the Roadmap and current negotiations give them a state. They must be fighting for the sheer enjoyment of inflicting pain and death.
In NO way is this similar.
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Message 15 - posted by English Bull Terrier and he still doesn't understand why there is no event horizon on a naked singularity
(U1674730)
, Aug 19, 2008
"These people" will continue to do these things, and get away with it....
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Message 16 - posted by orangeneugerbil
(U10463137)
, Aug 19, 2008
Brandon asked
"Why couldn't they have fired warning shots? "
Because if they did , and it was a rocket ,they could have been killed.
Oh-oh Silly me. Thats what you would have wanted no ?.
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Message 17 - posted by orangeneugerbil
(U10463137)
, Aug 19, 2008
EBT scrawled <<"These people" will continue to do these things, and get away with it.... >>
Ja Herr Oberst , zeez beeble jus dont know zere place in the ze vorld. By ze vey Her Oberst , your shooos are not zo shiny , may I offer to lick zem for you ?.
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Message 18 - posted by simcha
(U4579656)
, Aug 19, 2008
happy4andrew
For soilders in the field politics it doesn't make a difference their job is to get their job done and not get killed in the process its the politicians who decide what makes a terrorist or a freedom fighter not soilders.
If these guys thought that the tripod might be an anti tank rocket their job was stay alive and thats kill them before they kill you not think about the justification for their cause.
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Message 19 - posted by Yoshky
(U7540972)
, Aug 19, 2008
"These people" Now where have I heard THAT phrase before?  Oh yes, it usually goes with bankers, 'some of my best friends' or Zionists. This is a reply to this message
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