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European culture

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  • Message 1. 

    Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    I heard someone on the radio a day or two ago saying how important the EU was for uniting and celebrating European culture - democracy, fairness, emphasis on social inclusion and thousands of years of art, philosophy, linked languages and thought. I found myself musing on all the wars and violence: a shared culture, really?

    Then this lunchtime I heard Martha Kearney interviewing voters in the US. So many mentions of god, distrustful references to 'big government', people who have always voted Democrat but are voting Republican over contraception and abortion (because their priest told them to do so), people who think Romney's stance on Iran is a jolly good thing...

    Suddenly the USA is beginning to seem a very foreign country.

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  • Message 2

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by wiseraphael (U14258190) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    I heard someone on the radio a day or two ago saying how important the EU was for uniting and celebrating European culture - democracy, fairness, emphasis on social inclusion and thousands of years of art, philosophy, linked languages and thought. I found myself musing on all the wars and violence: a shared culture, really?

    Then this lunchtime I heard Martha Kearney interviewing voters in the US. So many mentions of god, distrustful references to 'big government', people who have always voted Democrat but are voting Republican over contraception and abortion (because their priest told them to do so), people who think Romney's stance on Iran is a jolly good thing...

    Suddenly the USA is beginning to seem a very foreign country. 
    Why?

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  • Message 3

    , in reply to message 2.

    Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    About 5% of the UK population goes to a place of worship at least once a week, and it's falling as they quite literally die off.

    In the USA, it's nearly a quarter.

    Report message3

  • Message 4

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Mr_Edwards (U3815709) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    Well the USA IS foreign, but it's not a foreign country, it's a collection of 50 foreign countries that have come together in an economic and political union but each retains a degree of sovereignty subject to the necessity of acting as a single collective in some corcumstances. Hence the motto "Out of Many, One".

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  • Message 5

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by wycombewanderer (U3114853) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    Do you find the Republic of Ireland to be such a foreign coutry?

    Abortion law is written into the constitution there with the death bpenalty used as a sentence(although commuted) as recently as 1957.
    Is America really such a foreign country?

    PS there is no European culture it is a ridiculous construct made by supporters of the failed EU.

    Report message5

  • Message 6

    , in reply to message 5.

    Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    Ireland has changed. There was the X case in 1983 which put paid to the moves to amend the constitution to protect the unborn. Then the paedophile priest scandals, and church attendance among the young has fallen off a cliff.

    All European countries have become far less religious in the last fifty years. The USA is going the other way.

    Clifford Longley was on TFTD this morning speaking about this. It is not so much that the USA is alien to us, but that it holds onto values we discard, notably seventeenth century ideas about blessing that went out in the country where they were invented after the Putney Debates when we all learned to get along tolerantly.

    And now today, the USA is roughly where we were a century ago, facing the inevitable decline of its global hegemony, and they are reacting in much the same way our nation did at the time, retreating into ever more ridiculous pomp-&-circumstance super-patriotism, as if that helps.

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  • Message 7

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by Reggie Trentham (U2746099) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    I think I know what you mean, Morganish. Although I belong to a generation that was immersed in American popular culture from birth, and I've got more and more fond of it the older I get, I always feel much more at home on the continent of Europe than I do in the US.

    There is something completely alien about the US and I think you are right that it's moving even further away. The really odd thing is to be in a country where they speak the same language as you do, or at least something approximating to it, but which feels so foreign. It's a feeling you don't get, despite the language difference in Europe. Certainly not in western Europe.

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  • Message 8

    , in reply to message 7.

    Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    It's them pesky French Intellectuals who got it into their Gaulois-fugged heads that British and American Culture were one and the same, Language and Culture being the same thing.

    They even came up with a name for it, and sometimes they still refer to us as Les Anglo-Saxophones.

    Report message8

  • Message 9

    , in reply to message 7.

    Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    >>>The really odd thing is to be in a country where they speak the same language as you do, or at least something approximating to it, but which feels so foreign.<<<

    interesting Reggie - I've never had any desire to go to the US because I didn't see the point of going all the way across the ocean only to find a country where they speak the same language. If I go abroad I want to not be able to understand the locals (very well).

    Report message9

  • Message 10

    , in reply to message 9.

    Posted by wiseraphael (U14258190) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    Well...I go to the States at least twice a year (our son lives there) and I always feel totally at home there....certainly far more at home than I do in France for example, or Switzerland.

    The American culture is most certainly much nearer to ours than any European country I've ever visited and the people are far friendlier.

    As far as religion goes, you hear about the extremes....but the vast majority of Americans are no more religious than we are.

    Actually, if i were 30 years younger I'd live and work there...far more alive, dynamic and go-ahead, with far more opportunities than any European country.

    Report message10

  • Message 11

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by sesley (U4024157) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    European culture is a diverse mix of states and immigration populations, like America.Europe is modernising in attitudes and new discoverys,America it seems is going backward in attitudes of women's rights and birth control and the harsh treatment of people caught up the justice systems,.parallel to Islamic states. religions are having too much influence on how the state's are run, like Islamic states.

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  • Message 12

    , in reply to message 9.

    Posted by Tadpole (U2267185) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    >>>The really odd thing is to be in a country where they speak the same language as you do, or at least something approximating to it, but which feels so foreign.<<<

    interesting Reggie - I've never had any desire to go to the US because I didn't see the point of going all the way across the ocean only to find a country where they speak the same language. If I go abroad I want to not be able to understand the locals (very well).  
    I felt that when I went to Australia - all that bloody effort and time to get to a country that wasn't a lot different culturally, just a bit warmer. I find Hungary, Finland, Portugal much more exotic and interesting, and virtually on our doorstep.

    Report message12

  • Message 13

    , in reply to message 12.

    Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    >>>Australia - all that bloody effort and time to get to a country that wasn't a lot different culturally<<<

    well quite, Scotland with bigger spiders and more chance of skin cancer - what's the attraction?

    Report message13

  • Message 14

    , in reply to message 13.

    Posted by La Min gibbon swinging strumpet draped in black (U12534030) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    Snork
    Tho I did once have an Aussie friend who had arrived in the UK via the US and we had some very interesting discussions about how easy it can be to assume that places are similar when there is no apparent language barrier, and how one can find out one is very wrong about it.

    When I think of culture I think of the whole history of ideas, music, art, architecture, gardens, literature and so on, not so much about where I have been and how I felt there. And we do certainly share a vast amount of that history etc with Europe.

    Report message14

  • Message 15

    , in reply to message 13.

    Posted by fairy hedgehog (U1485678) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    > What's the attraction?<

    The wildlife is quite bonkers. Black swans, pigeons with a spike on top of their heads, kangaroos, koalas...

    fh

    Report message15

  • Message 16

    , in reply to message 15.

    Posted by Leaping Badger (U3587940) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    None of the kangaroos I met spoke English.
    'Ö'

    Report message16

  • Message 17

    , in reply to message 7.

    Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    Phew, thank goodness Reggie and Sesley have an idea of what I'm on about. Diverse though Europe is, there are certain things - women's rights, reproductive rights and a desire to try and use government as a way of alleviating the worst suffering of the poor - that are more or less shared and fought for. It does, as someone else commented, sometimes feel that the USA is going backwards. While Poland and Spain and Portugal are still clearly more religious than many other parts of Europe, one does have a sense that secularism still, on the whole, rules.

    Report message17

  • Message 18

    , in reply to message 17.

    Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    Spain, Religious?

    Not the Spanish kids I know.

    Report message18

  • Message 19

    , in reply to message 5.

    Posted by alanis (U2256129) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    PS there is no European culture it is a ridiculous construct made by supporters of the failed EU. 
    I suspect there really isn't much that can be done to convince someone whose ignorance of history and civilisation is so complete.

    I wonder what you think Henry James was writing about then. And he died in 1916, iirc.

    Report message19

  • Message 20

    , in reply to message 7.

    Posted by Celtic Tiger (U2229153) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    I think I know what you mean, Morganish. Although I belong to a generation that was immersed in American popular culture from birth, and I've got more and more fond of it the older I get, I always feel much more at home on the continent of Europe than I do in the US.

    There is something completely alien about the US and I think you are right that it's moving even further away. The really odd thing is to be in a country where they speak the same language as you do, or at least something approximating to it, but which feels so foreign. It's a feeling you don't get, despite the language difference in Europe. Certainly not in western Europe. 
    I have travelled in many European countries, some where I could speak the language, some where I couldn't and have always felt fairly at home. Same in Australia. But when I was in the US I felt completely alien. Not just the culture but also the infrastructure - it was just so difficult to see how things worked.
    PS This is not a criticism of Americans. I am not long back from a river cruise 2/3 of whose passengers were from the US and they were, without exception, charming and interesting people.

    Report message20

  • Message 21

    , in reply to message 17.

    Posted by sthilda (U3612164) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    I have only visited the usa twice, and on each occasion it was california...i found people superficially very outgoing adn friendly, but defintiely only surface...it does not mean tney are easy to be friends with...polite,easy going...but then that is what americans think of us...

    I defintely felt foreign, which suprised me no end, as like reggie, i am so used to american culture i hardly nptice it as amreican...i had no problem translating words,as i read loads and loads of american books...but there are subleties that mean you are 'foreign'.....also ,i was there for a professional reason and i found myself struggling at times to follow group conversations...again surprised me...

    Report message21

  • Message 22

    , in reply to message 17.

    Posted by San Fairy Anne (U14257911) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    If you did not hear this on October 30th it may be worth a listen www.bbc.co.uk/progra...

    After I heard it I was reconvinced in my view that one visit to the USofA was more than enough. I could not live in a society with such unchristian attitudes although they out do us in church attendance. Just not PLUs at all. Or at least not PL mes. SFAnne™

    Report message22

  • Message 23

    , in reply to message 22.

    Posted by sthilda (U3612164) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    Hmm, didnt hear that, have heard it in the last series...

    I find some attitudes frightening, and frankly i would be relictant to be in the states on my own in some areas...i dont feel i would be safe.

    Report message23

  • Message 24

    , in reply to message 18.

    Posted by Tomas_Bosque (U2631536) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    Spain, Religious?

    Not the Spanish kids I know.
     


    Quite.

    I lived and worked there for nearly 30 years in total and hardly anyone I worked with and certainly none of my friends ever went near a church except for weddings, funerals, etc.

    The current PP government pays more lip service to the Church, but its influence has been waning ever since Franco shuffled off this mortal coil in 1975; more so in recent years with revelations of child abuse, the "disappearance" of orphans and the like.

    Report message24

  • Message 25

    , in reply to message 1.

    Posted by fascinating (U1944795) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    I heard someone on the radio a day or two ago saying how important the EU was for uniting and celebrating European culture - democracy, fairness, emphasis on social inclusion and thousands of years of art, philosophy, linked languages and thought. I found myself musing on all the wars and violence: a shared culture, really?

    Then this lunchtime I heard Martha Kearney interviewing voters in the US. So many mentions of god, distrustful references to 'big government', people who have always voted Democrat but are voting Republican over contraception and abortion (because their priest told them to do so), people who think Romney's stance on Iran is a jolly good thing...

    Suddenly the USA is beginning to seem a very foreign country. 
    Morganish, clearly you are firmly anti-religion, so when you see a population that has many church-goers and mentions God a lot, you call it "backward" (not just "different"). Regarding your comments on Romney's stance and the attitude to "big" government - it so happens I don't agree with these things either, but then I don't live in the US, the people there have a right to their own opinions, even if they are different from mine.

    The USA is a foreign country.

    Europe plainly does have a shared culture, and the fact that the nation-states have had big wars does not invalidate that. I am sure many African tribes have been at war with each other many times in the past, yet they share many cultural aspects.

    Report message25

  • Message 26

    , in reply to message 24.

    Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    My friend who was a distinctly lapsed Catholic when she lived in London rediscovered Catholicism with a vengeance when she moved to live in Spain, and many people in her very rural, traditional area seem to follow the faith. So that, and the fact that whenever I go there there's always some saint's day being celebrated with processions and fiestas, has shaped my impression. But of, course, it's all relative, and like everywhere else in Europe religion in Spain is on the decline.

    I have a couple of American friends who've lived here for years (more than 30 in one case) and find going back to the USA increasingly difficult because of the shift in attitudes. Like others here I have no difficulty understanding the language or feeling superficially at home there, but I do find myself sitting quietly and biting my tongue because outside of sophisticated urban centres, many commonly-held views strike me as very challenging and alien. Like SFA, I have enormous difficulty squaring the religious rhetoric with the actuality. As a visitor, one only gets a snapshot, of course.

    Report message26

  • Message 27

    , in reply to message 25.

    Posted by JB on a slippery slope to the thin end ofdabiscuit (U13805036) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    It's not the fact that they are religious.

    It's the kind of religion they hold to:

    www.gallup.com/poll/...

    Report message27

  • Message 28

    , in reply to message 25.

    Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    Fascinating, I have no quibble with the fundamental tenets of most religions - do as you would be done by, look after those in need, charity etc. But I don't believe that you have to be religious to follow those tenets and I believe that most religions end up somehow perverting the basis of their faiths.

    Interested by the comment about a retreat into 17th-century-style of religion. I sometimes forget that the Puritans set off across the pond because their brand of Christianity was considered too extreme and proscriptive for pragmatic, relatively tolerant England. The prospect of Islam on the one-hand and Puritanism on the other, with Europe in the middle, feels rather unsettling but also makes me feel that Europe is still important and needs celebrating.

    I didn't intend this to be a primarily religious debate. I am just struck by the fact that when I was younger American and European culture seemed broadly similar, but now seem to be diverging at some speed.

    Report message28

  • Message 29

    , in reply to message 10.

    Posted by Morganish (U9108847) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    Well...I go to the States at least twice a year (our son lives there) and I always feel totally at home there....certainly far more at home than I do in France for example, or Switzerland.

    The American culture is most certainly much nearer to ours than any European country I've ever visited and the people are far friendlier.

    As far as religion goes, you hear about the extremes....but the vast majority of Americans are no more religious than we are.

    Actually, if i were 30 years younger I'd live and work there...far more alive, dynamic and go-ahead, with far more opportunities than any European country. 
    Well, if you are man, maybe. If you are a woman and your reproductive rights are being compromised, it's difficult to have an abortion if you need one, you face the prospect of not getting equal pay (Romney is wavering on it) and are increasingly marginalised by the macho Christianity that the right espouse - well, if you are a woman you might feel differently.

    Report message29

  • Message 30

    , in reply to message 28.

    Posted by San Fairy Anne (U14257911) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    If you can find the time to LA the Public Philosopher please do.

    I shows up the very very fundamental moral and ethical differences between the two sides of the Pond. I just find it inexplicable that so many people in the USA claim to be Christian and yet seem to have such unchristian attitudes to each other. Whereas we have less and less people admitting to being believers and yet in practical terms behaving in a 'christian' fashion. SFAnne™

    Report message30

  • Message 31

    , in reply to message 19.

    Posted by wycombewanderer (U3114853) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    PS there is no European culture it is a ridiculous construct made by supporters of the failed EU. 
    I suspect there really isn't much that can be done to convince someone whose ignorance of history and civilisation is so complete.

    I wonder what you think Henry James was writing about then. And he died in 1916, iirc.

     
    Explain a single European culture then if you can, linguistically legally politically what is 'European culture'?

    There are a myriad of different cultures in Europe, to claim to live in Europe and to be wilfully ignorant of that suggests a certain myopia!

    Report message31

  • Message 32

    , in reply to message 29.

    Posted by wiseraphael (U14258190) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    Well...I go to the States at least twice a year (our son lives there) and I always feel totally at home there....certainly far more at home than I do in France for example, or Switzerland.

    The American culture is most certainly much nearer to ours than any European country I've ever visited and the people are far friendlier.

    As far as religion goes, you hear about the extremes....but the vast majority of Americans are no more religious than we are.

    Actually, if i were 30 years younger I'd live and work there...far more alive, dynamic and go-ahead, with far more opportunities than any European country. 
    Well, if you are man, maybe. If you are a woman and your reproductive rights are being compromised, it's difficult to have an abortion if you need one, you face the prospect of not getting equal pay (Romney is wavering on it) and are increasingly marginalised by the macho Christianity that the right espouse - well, if you are a woman you might feel differently.
     
    Morganish....how many times have you been to America?

    You describe a state of affairs I don't recognise...but then I've been there many many times.

    Equal pay? We have it here then do we?

    Actually women have far greater chances of advancement than they do in the UK. My son is a vice president of a multi million dollar company...there are more women on the Board of his company than men...including the CEO.

    The right wing Christians are about as numerically strong as the extreme Islamists are among the Moslem community here...in other words not very.

    As to the difficulty of getting an abortion I don't know if that's true or not...I doubt it.....but perhaps you shouldn't take one silly comment by one politician as typical.

    There's only one way of judging a community and that is by spending a long time in that community....not by reading headlines.

    Report message32

  • Message 33

    , in reply to message 31.

    Posted by alanis (U2256129) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    No-one has ever said the concept of European culture had to be homogenous, or could be summed up in a few sentences. It would hardly be worth the name culture if it could, for one thing. And is England homogenous? Never mind the UK?

    The point is that you said the concept of a European culture was an EU construct, which is embarrassingly ill-informed. It predates the EU by generations.

    Report message33

  • Message 34

    , in reply to message 32.

    Posted by sthilda (U3612164) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    But it is not one silly politican, it is a fair number...there have been threads on here about the number of appaling moves to for example, mandate ultra sounds for any woman presenting for termination...the catch being that early inpregnancy that requires insertinga probe...which under at least one states laws would amount to rape if the woman did not consent...the flurry of proposals and bills for legislation are frankly staggering...

    And it is not just us foreign women, it is usa women who are worried..
    So hes whilst i ahree with you, looking in has its limits, so does being a part of a community...and you are not female

    Report message34

  • Message 35

    , in reply to message 33.

    Posted by Campbell in Farewell Clogs (U14226916) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    >>>The point is that you said the concept of a European culture was an EU construct, which is embarrassingly ill-informed. It predates the EU by generations.<<<

    I read the post more as meaning that there's no such thing as a Collective European Culture, which doesn't actually seem so very 'embarrassingly ill-informed' at all.

    Report message35

  • Message 36

    , in reply to message 33.

    Posted by wycombewanderer (U3114853) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    No-one has ever said the concept of European culture had to be homogenous, or could be summed up in a few sentences. It would hardly be worth the name culture if it could, for one thing. And is England homogenous? Never mind the UK?

    The point is that you said the concept of a European culture was an EU construct, which is embarrassingly ill-informed. It predates the EU by generations. 
    European cultureS there's an S on the end of it, European culture does not exist it is a construct of the EU!

    Blimey i didn't think it was that difficult to comprehend!

    Report message36

  • Message 37

    , in reply to message 33.

    Posted by wycombewanderer (U3114853) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    No-one has ever said the concept of European culture had to be homogenous, or could be summed up in a few sentences. It would hardly be worth the name culture if it could, for one thing. And is England homogenous? Never mind the UK?

    The point is that you said the concept of a European culture was an EU construct, which is embarrassingly ill-informed. It predates the EU by generations. 
    Have you read the OP it is European culture,

    There's no S at the end of it it suggests a single entity espoused only by rabid europhiles it does not exist!

    Report message37

  • Message 38

    , in reply to message 35.

    Posted by Reggie Trentham (U2746099) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    I don't think anyone is claiming that there is a collective European culture, Campbell. That's exactly the kind of regimented concept the Europhobes like to think the EU is guilty of. But to deny that there is a common European culture, not homogeneous but moving in the same direction with the same influences at the same time,would be ludicrous.

    It isn't really the kind of discussion you can have on a message board, it would take volumes to dissect it properly. But just consider these three words and then anyone deny it - Renaissance, Enlightenment, Romanticism.

    Report message38

  • Message 39

    , in reply to message 38.

    Posted by wycombewanderer (U3114853) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    I don't think anyone is claiming that there is a collective European culture, Campbell. That's exactly the kind of regimented concept the Europhobes like to think the EU is guilty of. But to deny that there is a common European culture, not homogeneous but moving in the same direction with the same influences at the same time,would be ludicrous.

    It isn't really the kind of discussion you can have on a message board, it would take volumes to dissect it properly. But just consider these three words and then anyone deny it - Renaissance, Enlightenment, Romanticism. 
    I'll see your Rennaissance, enlightenment and romanticism, and raise you politics, law, religion and language!

    Report message39

  • Message 40

    , in reply to message 38.

    Posted by alanis (U2256129) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    I don't think anyone is claiming that there is a collective European culture, Campbell. That's exactly the kind of regimented concept the Europhobes like to think the EU is guilty of. But to deny that there is a common European culture, not homogeneous but moving in the same direction with the same influences at the same time,would be ludicrous.

    It isn't really the kind of discussion you can have on a message board, it would take volumes to dissect it properly. But just consider these three words and then anyone deny it - Renaissance, Enlightenment, Romanticism. 
    Yes, exactly Reggie.

    Come to that, "British culture" is hardly a homogenous entity either, is it? Is there even such a thing, and if so, how would one define it? It's not even English-speaking, because of minority languages but also because other countries are English-speaking but not British, such as South Africa or sections of India and Sri Lankan society.

    Report message40

  • Message 41

    , in reply to message 38.

    Posted by Peggy Monahan (U2254875) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    It isn't really the kind of discussion you can have on a message board, it would take volumes to dissect it properly. But just consider these three words and then anyone deny it - Renaissance, Enlightenment, Romanticism. 

    I agree. And I wonder whether ww would be as happy living in the US as he is in France.

    Report message41

  • Message 42

    , in reply to message 39.

    Posted by Reggie Trentham (U2746099) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    You are trying to be deliberately contrarian aren't you? Of course there are political, legal, religious and linguistic differences, although you might take note of the Napoleonic Code and Roman Law as far as legal questions are concerned. But all you are saying is that European culture is not homogeneous, which no-one on this thread denies. What you have to show is that there isn't a common culture.

    Report message42

  • Message 43

    , in reply to message 42.

    Posted by Reggie Trentham (U2746099) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    And if you are talking about politics consider such concepts as Liberalism, Socialism and Fascism.

    Report message43

  • Message 44

    , in reply to message 42.

    Posted by orange pekoe (U9563764) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    As well as SFA's radio LA recommendation, there was a really interesting prog on BBC2 last week sometime, looking at American public opinion down the years viewed through the sitcoms of the day.

    I've had a quick look on iplayer, but can't remember at the moment what it was called.

    Showed an abortion storyline on Maude from the 1970s, which as the presenter said, is simply unthinkable nowadays.

    Interesting on the acceptance of gay and lesbian characters too.

    Report message44

  • Message 45

    , in reply to message 42.

    Posted by wycombewanderer (U3114853) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    You are trying to be deliberately contrarian aren't you? Of course there are political, legal, religious and linguistic differences, although you might take note of the Napoleonic Code and Roman Law as far as legal questions are concerned. But all you are saying is that European culture is not homogeneous, which no-one on this thread denies. What you have to show is that there isn't a common culture.  It seems to me that it is you and some others who are being deliberately contrarian given the opening paragraph of the opening post.

    I heard someone on the radio a day or two ago saying how important the EU was for uniting and celebrating European culture - democracy, fairness, emphasis on social inclusion and thousands of years of art, philosophy, linked languages and thought. I found myself musing on all the wars and violence: a shared culture, really?
     


    I merely pointed out that a 'shared culture' was a concept of the European union and has no basis, and yes others have suggested it, in fact the OP suggested it!

    Report message45

  • Message 46

    , in reply to message 45.

    Posted by alanis (U2256129) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    So presumably you could define British culture for us, then? Does that exist?

    (And my original objection to your post wasn't that there is necessarily a single European culture - it is possible to make the argument that there isn't, as one could say there isn't a single British culture. What you can't reasonably do is to claim that the concept arose with the EU. It is far older than that.)

    Report message46

  • Message 47

    , in reply to message 46.

    Posted by wycombewanderer (U3114853) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    So presumably you could define British culture for us, then? Does that exist?

    (And my original objection to your post wasn't that there is necessarily a single European culture - it is possible to make the argument that there isn't, as one could say there isn't a single British culture. What you can't reasonably do is to claim that the concept arose with the EU. It is far older than that.) 
    Oh dear yet another one who has neither read the OP nor understood the post to which she is replying!

    I heard someone on the radio a day or two ago saying how important the EU was for uniting and celebrating European culture  

    Report message47

  • Message 48

    , in reply to message 47.

    Posted by Reggie Trentham (U2746099) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    So is your objection just to the EU celebrating our shared/common European culture or are you denying that such a shared/common culture exists? Or is it all part of the mythical liberal conspiracy?

    Report message48

  • Message 49

    , in reply to message 47.

    Posted by alanis (U2256129) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    I understand the OP. I think you clearly don't, or don't wish to.

    You haven't explained how if the EU invented the concept of a common European culture, writers like Henry James were comparing it to what they felt was the natural opposition with an emerging American culture 100 years ago.

    Report message49

  • Message 50

    , in reply to message 48.

    Posted by wycombewanderer (U3114853) on Monday, 5th November 2012

    As i quite clearly pointed out there is no European culture, so in the words of the OP, it cannot be united.
    A united European culture is a construct of the EU.
    It really is quite simple if you think about it!

    Report message50

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