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| | | Subject: Did Jesus rise from the dead?
Posted Jun 23, 2007 by mia kulpa
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  | | As a Christian, a believer in Christ's teachings, I don't feel that I have to believe every single thing that has ever been written about Jesus.
His teachings touched my heart when I was very young and it's something that I've always held onto.
I can't imagine that anyone knows for certain that he physically rose from the grave or not, but my practical intelligence tells me this is highly unlikely. What is more likely is that he spiritually rose from the state of death to live with us as he always has done. Within our hearts.
 mia
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| | | Subject: Did Jesus rise from the dead?
Posted Jun 23, 2007 by Son of Roj Blake - Greetings Donkey Kong!
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"The starting point is, I think, to establish the historical facts we can agree are true about Jesus and look at it from there."
No, the starting point is to establish
(1) precisely what it is you claim happened
(2) the evidence for that event.
Any discussion of other events (e.g. nativity, last supper, crucifixion) is the usual pointless obfuscation - a dishonest attempt to pretend that if one does not ouright reject the evidence for event A, one must needs give some linked credence to the entirely unconnected event B.
So:
(1) PRECISELY what do you claim happened? (i.e. do you believe a three day old corpse was reanimated, or that a new body complete with wounds was generated (how?) or some wishy washy new age guff like "he spiritually rose from the state of death to live with us as he always has done", or what?)
(2) What is your evidence for that event?
As you have previously proven yourself quite slow to understand questions, I'll repeat my request to please stick to the subject YOU chose - the resurrection - and please don't dishonestly start trying to derail the thread onto other claimed events.
SoRB
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| | | Subject: Did Jesus rise from the dead?
Posted Jun 23, 2007 by Woodpigeon
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| | Hi mia,
His teachings touched my heart too when I was young, but when I grew up a bit more I realised it was only something I wanted to believe was true, and not something true in itself. A sort of officially sanctioned invisible friend, as it were.
Spiritually rising from the dead is kind of vague: I'm not really sure what you mean. Is spiritually rising just some sort of metaphor, or was there an actual disembodied consciousness of some sort, that rose out of the tomb? Do you mean that he lives in everyone's hearts - Christian and non-Christian, or just Christians only? What about people who were around before he died? Did he live in their hearts too?
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| | | Subject: Did Jesus rise from the dead?
Posted Jun 23, 2007 by Son of Roj Blake - Greetings Donkey Kong!
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mia:
"As a Christian, a believer in Christ's teachings, I don't feel that I have to believe every single thing that has ever been written about Jesus."
Why bother calling yourself a Christian then? 
"His teachings touched my heart when I was very young and it's something that I've always held onto."
Strange how there are some childhood fairy stories we never grow out of. Me, I still like Star Wars.
"I can't imagine that anyone knows for certain that he physically rose from the grave or not, but my practical intelligence tells me this is highly unlikely."
And yet "true" Christians would have you believe the literal resurrection is where their religion stands or falls.
Indeed, I'm with them. If Jesus *didn't* resurrect, his apostles are all liars and he was just a nice but deluded bloke with some good conjuring tricks and popular stories.
"What is more likely is that he spiritually rose from the state of death to live with us as he always has done. Within our hearts."
But if that's all you think happened, you're basically an atheist cherry picking some of your morality from the bits of Christianity that don't offend you. Why not take responsibility for yourself?
SoRB
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| | | Subject: Did Jesus rise from the dead?
Posted Jun 23, 2007 by 3Dots
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| | <I agree it's an outstandingly extraordinary claim. The starting point is, I think, to establish the historical facts we can agree are true about Jesus and look at it from there.>
Historical facts:
1) Someone called Jesus might have existed...in fact lots of people called Jesus existed.
2) Someone called Jesus was crucified...within the realms of possibility it is certainly probable that this is the case.
3) He will have had, with 100% certainty, had a 'last supper' unless he only had breakfast or dinner all his life or never ate.
Now these three 'facts' could be proved if you looked hard enough for 'some bloke called Jesus'.
Now lets have a look at some other statements:
a) God impregnated a virgin woth His son.
b) His son did loads of miracles.
c) His son rose from the dead.
Statements a, b and c are the ones you need to be justifying. Facts (1) ,(2) and (3) are irrelevant to the 'extraordinary claim'.
Let's assume facts (1),(2),(3) are correct. Now, get to work on statements a, b and c. Particularly (c); the thread title.
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| | | Subject: Did Jesus rise from the dead?
Posted Jun 23, 2007 by Fizzymouse - R.I.P. T.B.
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>>But why believe in something for which there is no evidence, and which is contrary to many things for which there is shedloads of evidence<<
Why not ... it isn't compulsary like some things .... you can choose to believe or not. 
By the same token you can debate in a reasonable manner the pros and cons of the various 'theories' without being obnoxious, or you can come on all uppity demanding proof. 
Back on subject, I saw a BBC4 documentary where they had quite a case for the theory that he was removed from the cross heavily drugged, left to sleep it off in the grave, awoke feeling a bit rough, after a couple of weeks - not days - was seen again just before he departed to live a full life somewhere in Africa (not sure about his final resting place ) So maybe in a certain fashion he did arise again.
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| | | Subject: Did Jesus rise from the dead?
Posted Jun 23, 2007 by kzwg
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| | I think Sorb's hit the nail on the head here:
<<Indeed, I'm with them (Christians). If Jesus *didn't* resurrect, his apostles are all liars and he was just a nice but deluded bloke with some good conjuring tricks and popular stories.>>
So can you demonstrate they were all liars? If you can Christianity falls. End of.
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