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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by Researcher 524695
Santa Claus for grownups. A psychological crutch for people who can't deal with the fact that they're not special, they're just another animal the universe doesn't care about.
A pernicious lie that we should all have collectively grown out of by now.
Teaching - even MENTIONING - religion to children under 16 should be an offence treated as seriously as f**king them up by violence or sexual assault.
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by shhhmichael
woah, i'll need to disagree with you there. why so worked up about religon?
as an athiest who was brought up a catholic i value some of the things that religon has taught me. you seem to be saying that telling children any sort of lies could affect their development, spiritually? moraly? philosphically? why?
wouldn't it be better if we could take our children to a stage where they are aware enough to make their own decisions, think things through and decide on their own beliefs and sense of "right".
i don't think that keeping religon out of things is the answer. how many things that we might have been told in church have affected how we behave and act in society? love thy neighbour? forgiveness? without getting too philosophical, aren't these good things for a developing child to learn?
as was mentioned earlier its the same as telling a kid to be good or they won't get any presents. in time the child will look for better reasons than santa.
possibly the most harm seems to be done by people who want to forcibly impress their views on others? Would society be in the state that we're in if people could reasonably discuss and accepted others views as perfectly acceptable.
I say grow up and stop telling people what to do! (hypocrisy was intentional at the end  )
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by Researcher 524695
" in time the child will look for better reasons than santa. "
Yeah - they'll look for something. And they'll find a global industry devoted to telling them that if they don't behave, not only will Santa not bring them presents, but they'll burn in hell for all eternity. THIS s**t is a "better reason"?
Yes, religion teaches "love thy neighbour", but coyly most of the time omits the follow up "or burn in the Lake of Fire". Christianity teaches that you should do good - but not because it's the right thing to do, but because you'll be punished if you don't, violently. Some lesson.
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by broelan - can't decide between ice cream and beer...
"Teaching - even MENTIONING - religion to children under 16 should be an offence treated as seriously as f**king them up by violence or sexual assault"
attitudes like this are far more damaging than belief in any god.
even tho i am athiest, i don't have a problem with my child receiving some religious instruction. i would want for him to make his own informed decision on the topic when he is older, and he can only do that if he has a clear idea of the options.
if you wish to lead a godless existence that's your choice, but if you wish to do so in peace then leave others to believe as they wish as well. and instead of telling children what to believe and what not to believe, educate them and teach them tolerance for others' beliefs.
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by azahar
hi shhhmichael,
<<as an athiest who was brought up a catholic i value some of the things that religon has taught me.>>
As a pantheist (for want of a better word) I was brought up RC and spent many unhappy childhood years having nightmares about going to Hell, etc. As a result, I have often said that children should not be exposed to the RC religion until they are capable of seeing the clear difference between reality and allegory.
I don't believe that children should not know about religion, but it would be much better if they were taught about many different religions at once, so they could see the differences and similarities. All religions say some good stuff. Most religions say some quite nasty stuff. To be five years old and told you are a sinner and that you will burn in Hell-fire everlasting if you do 'bad' things is hardly a positive and healthy manner to be brought up. IMHO.
az
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by Northern Boy (lost somewhere in the great rhubarb triangle) <master of Freudian typos> Man or Badger?
speaking as an atheist (but an open minded one) i believe that children should be taught about religion on the proviso that they are taught about as many religions as possible and that the information i presented in such a way that the children get the opportunity to evaluate different faiths and decide which (if any) fits for them.
one thing i hated at school was that we were taught abought the christian faith as if it was the only correct one and other religions were presented as silly ideas.
I strongly feel that religion should no t be forced on children and that they should be allowed to reach their own decisions.
<just my two cents and these are my opinions only, i acknowledge that others may feel different and i respect their right to do so>
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by psycho42
As a "nothing" (I believe in God, but not in organized religion), I agree to an extent that teaching children religion may not be the best thing. However, I was raised United Methodist and found that my real problem is the hypocrisy involved in organized religion. I think that parents teaching their children religion is ok, so long as the parent is open to the fact that the child may not agree with thier views. As far as f***ing them up, I don't think it does. If they are going to follow everything they are told, they'll just follow what someone else tells them. But. . .if they are going to think for themselves, it won't stop them to have learned what others see in religion. It will only open their minds to the fact that some people are followers and their beliefs.
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by shhhmichael
i think broelan got it right, no matter what you think, trying to impress any view on others can only make matters worse.
a younger brother of mine takes religous educatuion at school (not voluntarily) he despises it but admits he might be more interested if he was shown more about other religons. that might also give kids a valuable insight into other cultures, something that really means something!
member, i'm not defending christianity, i think its terribly misleading but i think people need to be able to make up their own minds. aggressiveness is rarely likely to change their views. what about simple discussion, after all, isn't that one of the things h2g2 facilitates? discussion leading to illumination? much more fun for everyone!
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by shhhmichael
also, azahar,
s'cuse my dim-wittedness but what is an panthiest?
cheers 
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by azahar
hi shhhmichael,
from the Collins English dictionary:
pantheism:
1. the doctrine that God is the transcendent reality of which man, nature, and the material universe are manifestations.
2. any doctrine that regards God as identical with the material universe or the forces of nature.
3. readiness to worship all or a large number of gods
In my case I would change 'worship' to 'acknowledge the existence of' (in definition number 3.
az
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by shhhmichael
thanks! but from now on no big words, o.k!
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by Researcher 524695
"i think people need to be able to make up their own minds"
Agreed. I'm all for that - which is why I'm against the brainwashing of children.
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by shhhmichael
brainwashing- yes, i'm against that.
freedom of beliefs-i'm all for that
i think its best to show children the huge variety of beliefs out there. i say an informed decision is much better than one made in ignorance.
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by Vestboy II not playing the Telegram Game at U726319
A lot of what people are saying reflects the ability or inability of their teachers. It also says that many teachers don't really take on board what the message of the religion is if they are saying "Love each other or you'll burn in hell!"
Why should anyone be good?
I can imagine Homer Simpson saying something like "Because if we don't the world will be a worse place to live because we'll use up all of the coal and the oil and the smoke will block out the sunlight and we'll all freeze or death... Or is it that the poisons in the air will destroy the ozone layer and we'll all burn to death? D'oh I can never remember which!"
So telling the children that unless we behave properly we'll have a hell of an existence may not be so far from the truth, eh?
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by Researcher 524695
" It also says that many teachers don't really take on board what the message of the religion is if they are saying "Love each other or you'll burn in hell!"
Read a Bible. From the very first book to the very last, all you hear is "obey the big invisible imaginary dude in the sky, or else he'll:
- turf you out of paradise
- rain fire on your city killing all the men women and children in it
- turn you to a pillar of salt
- send a bear to disembowel you if you make fun of bald guys (even if you're just a child)
- kill every living land animal, including every single human except for one family
- toss you into hell on the day of your death
- condemn you to a lake of fire on judgement day"
Any teacher NOT pointing these repeated lessons out is trying to con you.
I agree, religion should be a choice - an informed choice, taken by adults. We don't allow parents to abuse children physically or sexually, why do we let them do so psychologically by permitting them to indoctrinate them with the idea they are hellbound sinners?
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by craigfreakmoore
I Was brought up as a Jehovahs Witness (No booing from the back please). So even though I was a firm believer and still am religion in schools was still a thing I was never happy. Even if you are religious which religion do you teach? being told the father, son and holy ghost are one in the same thing is not part of our religion so was it fair to have these teaching thrown at me? Or anyone else in my class? No, in my mind religion has no place in schools and should be left to the parents, and then later in life personal choice. Everything i learnt at school (the world is a globe, 1+1=2) I was told to believe and trust, would most children think the same when 'educated' on religion? Where does education stop and brainwashing and indoctrination begin? In this world of Political Correctness and equal opertunities they can either stop teaching religion or teach every single religion on the face of the planet with equal furor.
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by Vestboy II not playing the Telegram Game at U726319
Wooooh, that was strong!
I think my argument is that we are now at a point in our development that we are being told unless we behave ourselves (as a species) we will wipe ourselves out - or our children, or their children.
Should we argue about the best way to get this message across or say any message that says "Change your ways or you're gonna die," shouldn't be given to anyone?
Is there a con? Short term gain is a bu99er to outwit isn't it? Why shouldn't someone have all the goes on the computer, eat all of the sweets, drive at 60 down a built up street, keep whatever they find (even if it wasn't lost), leave all of the houselights on, buy cheap shoes from sweatshop factories abroad?
What difference does one person's action have on the rest of the world?
 I've just deleted several lines of text as I was going into one there!
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by Vestboy II not playing the Telegram Game at U726319
Drat simulpost it was a reply to Member
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by Steve K.
I tend to agree with craigfreakmoore, "teaching" religion to children (of which my wife & I have none) seems more like indoctrination. I was brought up in Catholic schools and feel like that's what happened to me, although I eventually turned away from religion. I tend to agree with Wittgenstein, who said that what you can't know you can't talk about (much less "teach"). The American philosopher Richard Rorty said something like its time to abandon "religious studies" and turn to "studies of religion". I think I catch the distinction, sounds good to me. 
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Posted Jan 8, 2004 by craigfreakmoore
HA HA HA.
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