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Posted Jun 15, 2009 by Ozzie Exile
When was Cornish last spoken in Devon?
There have been numerous references to Cornish surviving until relatively late, indeed until medieval times, but exact and primary references have proven elusive.
However I have across some references below, which I found in an article by Matthew Spriggs.
He reports that..
"Polwhele wrote in 1806 that 'TheCornish language was current in a part of the South-hams, (which I have palled East-Cornwall) in the time of Edward the First; and longafter, in all the vicinities of the Tamar. In Cornwall, it was universally spoken.'
He (Polwhele) had earlier opined that although English had become fashionable among the Devonian upper classes, 'the inferior classes adhered firmly to their old vernacular tongue. Not that the Cornu-Bntish was abandoned by every Devonian of rank or education: It was certainly spoken in Devonshire by persons of distinction, long after the present [Saxon] period.'56
There was some discussion of the issue of Cornish speech in Devon in the pages of The Western Antiquary during 1882, when E.S. Radford asked for corroboration of the assertion by one 'G A '(possibly Grant Allen) in Cornhill Magazine of November 1881 'that Welsh was spoken in remote parts of Devonshire as late as the reign of Elizabeth'. W.S. Lach-Szyrma also asked for clarification of the South Hams statement, but nothing was forthcoming in response to either ofthese questions which extended the trail back past Polwhele.57
The source of G.A.'s statement is almost certainly Isaac Taylor's 1865 Words and Places, where he states: 'In remote parts of Devon theancient Cymric speech feebly lingered on till the reign of Elizabeth'.58
He does not reference Polwhele in this work, although some laterCornish publications are quoted which might provide an indirectsource, but one has to wonder whether Elizabeth was simply a slip for Edward here?"
References for the above
56. R. Polwhele, The History of Cornwall, Vol. 5, Dorking, 1978 [1806], p. 4.and Vol. 3, Dorking, 1978 [1803], pp. 28-9
57. G.A., 'Some English Place Names', Cornhill Magazine, 54, 1881, p. 569.For the discussion in The Western Antiquary, see I, Jan. 1882, p. 164; I,Feb. 1882, pp. 172, 199; I, March 1882, p. 203.
58. I. Taylor, Words and Places, London, 1864; 2nd expanded edition London,1865. I have only seen the 4th edition edited by A. Smythe Palmer(London, 1909), but this follows the 1865 edition. In the 1909 edition, the quotation is on p. 171. In the much reprinted Everyman edition (London,1911), it occurs on p. 184
There is no indication where Polwhele, Allen and Taylor sourced their comments, and Sprigg is certainly of the view that there is little evidence to support this - although the footnotes provide another interesting reference shown below
61. J. Loth, 'Reste de Brittonique en Devon au XlVe Sičcle', Revue Celtique,34, 1913, pp. 180-1, reports a possible instance of Brittonic but (he claims) not Cornish speech from fourteenth century Devon in a boundary document. This is referred to approvingly by Williams, 1995, p. 80, but Oliver Padel has pointed out to me that Loth's 'due Glas' in the bounds of Brentmoor is actually the latin 'duae' (two) and that there are other instances of renderings of latin -ae as -e in these texts. The word thus provides no evidence for the survival of Brittonic speech in Devon.
This source suggests a (disputable) record of written Celtic in Devon in the 14th Century.
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Posted Jun 18, 2009 by Plymouth Exile
Under the heading “The Case of Cornwall”, Mathew Spriggs does his best to separate Cornwall from Devon by quoting the usual William of Malmesbury account of Athelstan expelling the Cornish from Exeter and fixing the boundary between the Britons and English at the Tamar. He goes on to assume that this came from a lost source. This is probably not the case as there exists an Athelstan Law Code which says:-
“Now I have decided with the councillors who have been with me at Exeter at Midwinter that all (disturbers of the peace) shall be ready to go themselves, with their wives and property and with everything (they possess) whither so ever I wish unless they are willing to cease (from wrongdoing) – with the further provision that they never afterwards return to their native district.”
Historian Susan Pearce (“South-western Britain in the Early Middle Ages”, 2004) believes that this law code certainly fits in with William of Malmesbury’s account and is probably his source document, but with William’s own added biases (he was known to hate the Britons). For a start, there is no mention of the Cornish in the law code. There is no indication that anyone was actually expelled from anywhere (including from Exeter), as we do not know what he meant by wrongdoers or disturbers of the peace, or whether they ceased from such wrongdoing. There is no indication that this law code applied to Exeter only, rather than to all lands under his rule. We now know from population genetics (Sykes, Oppenheimer, Bodmer, etc) that the Britons were definitely not removed from Devon.
Malmesbury also stated that Athelstan fixed the boundary of the Cornish province at the Tamar. The term “province” at that time meant the jurisdiction of a bishop, and as Hoskins (“Devon”, 1954) states, it is known that Althelstan divided the diocese covering Devon and Cornwall into two at about this time, with the new Cornish diocesan seat situated at St. Germans. There is no mention anywhere in primary documentation that Athelstan separated the Britons from the English. Again the genetic record backs this up.
Moving on to the use of Cornish language in Devon, Spriggs under the heading “Was Cornish spoken in Devon?” attempts to dismiss the historical pronouncements that this was the case made by various writers from Risdon onwards. He claims that there is no verifiable evidence for it, again citing the “Athelstan expulsion of Cornish speakers”. One of the (so-called) pieces of evidence used for dismissing the late survival of Brythonic in Devon is the lack of any Middle Cornish forms in any of the Brythonic place-names found in Devon. Closer inspection indicates that there are almost certainly some Middle Cornish names. With the advent of the Middle Cornish period, the adjectival suffix ‘-oc’ was replaced by the suffix ‘-ec’ (often written as ‘-ick’ in place-names). There are a number of attested ‘-oc’ place names in Devon such as Dunchideock and Hemyock, but Coates (“Celtic Voices English Places”, 2000) also includes the names Dowrich and Gaverick in his gazetteer of Brythonic major Devon place-names, both of which have the Middle Cornish ‘-ec’ adjectival suffix.
There are a number of other possible instances among the minor place-names, together with a couple of instances of the Middle Cornish word ‘pons’ meaning ‘bridge, rather than the Old Cornish version ‘pont’. These are Ponsford and Ponsworthy, both of which refer to locations where there was a bridge over a stream or river. Ponsford near Cullompton is at a location where a stream is bridged. It appeared in the Domesday Book as Pantesford. Ponsworthy on Dartmoor is at a location where the West Webburn River is bridged. It was known as Pauntesford in 1281AD. The early forms ‘pant’ and ‘paunt’ could well be the Old Cornish ‘pont’. If so, at some point in time they both appear to have been changed to the Middle Cornish form ‘pons’. As Middle Cornish gradually replaced Old Cornish no earlier than the 12th century, these name changes would imply that there were Brythonic (Middle Cornish) speakers in Devon to rename them. The term ‘ford’ in both cases could refer to a stream being forded, or it could be the Cornish word ‘forth’, referring to the road or track crossing the bridge.
Spriggs also quotes Padel, who believes that there are only three ‘tre’ names in Devon. This is because he has taken his information from the ‘Place-names of Devon’ volumes, which only include major place-names. Most of the 44 Devon ‘tre’ names are of minor places, such as farms and small hamlets, which is not surprising as ‘tre’ means ‘farmstead’.
A primary source document which clearly indicates the presence of Brythonic speakers in Devon during the first half of the 13th century is “Crown Pleas of the Devon Eyre 1238”. A small but significant minority of the persons referred to in this record are termed as being ‘Walensis’, which was a term used to indicate Brythonic speakers at that time. Even those who deny the late survival of any Brythonic speaking Devonians admit that these persons were Brythonic speakers, but insist that they must have been visiting Cornish or Welsh people. This is most unlikely, as they are not only too numerous, but Cornish and Welsh people are specifically referred to as such in the document, i.e. either ‘****** of Wales (or Cornwall)’ or ‘****** from Wales (or Cornwall)’. There is no indication that those referred to as ‘Walensis’ were either Welsh or Cornish visitors to Devon.
No one is claiming that at the time of Edward I most Devonians spoke Brythonic, but it would seem that there is compelling evidence that a small minority of Devonians (probably from the isolated farm labouring classes) were still using the language, and were recognised as doing so by the ‘Walensis’ appellation being applied to them in “Crown Pleas of the Devon Eyre 1238”. Either the likes of Spriggs and co are unaware of such primary sources, or they choose to ignore them, as they do not tell them what they want to hear.
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Posted Jul 8, 2009 by Ozzie Exile
I came across an online text of "County and Town in England" authored by Grant Allen and published in 1901.
In it he makes some references to the late survival of the British language in Devon, namely...
"Still, however, the Welsh blood remained, as it even now
remains, in the ascendant ; and during the Danish wars,
when it became important to conciliate the conquered
people, Alfred appointed a Welsh-speaking Welshman,
Asser of St. David's, as Bishop of Exeter, his diocese to
consist of a newly-conquered country, together with the
charge of two small districts in Cornwall already
annexed. At the same time, the distinction of Welsh-
man and Englishman before the law, insisted upon in the
code of Ini, has quite dropped out in Alfred's Dooms.
Under Athelstan Cornish-Welsh was still spoken in
Exeter ; and in remote country places it even lingered
on till the reign of Queen Elizabeth."
I only wish Victorian authors gave references...
Later on another curious reference exists, which I do not know the source of.
"a curious document, noted by Sir Francis Palgrave, shows that in
Devonshire at least a Welsh [community] long continued
to be ruled by [its] own Council of Elders, who made
regular agreements with the English witan, just as in
India the headman of the village and the local council
are recognised even now by the British authorities."
Palgrave was a historian lived from 1788 until 1861 and one of his more famous works is "A history of the Anglo-Saxons" in 1831, however I could not find a reference to such a council of elders
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Posted Jul 8, 2009 by Ozzie Exile
Note that the "Grant Allen" above is the same one referenced by Spriggs in posting #1 above.
However dubious and unsupported his claim, he does not appear to have changed his position between 1882 and 1901 despite Radford's questioning.
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Posted 3 Weeks Ago by devoncranwood
Hello Ozzie Exile
It has been a while since I have posted anything, I have now moved to a sunnier climate. Perth, Western Australia
More supporting evidence there has been concerning the perpetuation of Brythonic Celtic speech in Devon well into medieval times. I have also read of traditions, among previous generations of Devonians, that the Celtic tongue was still in use in the 'British' quarter of Exeter well into the 13th Century, the plague of 1348 would have helped it's demise as it killed a large portion of the population and speakers of the celtic tongue, that in the more remote areas of Devon, the remnants of the language were still in use, in the form a number of dialect words, well into the 16th Century (i.e. Elizabethan times).
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Posted 3 Weeks Ago by Ozzie Exile
Devoncranwood,
Enjoy the warmer (& drier) weather in Perth.
Yes, there have been numerous references to the survival of celtic speech in Devon until relatively lately.
In terms of celtic words in use in local dialect they exist even to the current day - for example the word "growan" for decomposed granite (on Dartmoor), and (according to Wikipedia)
* Blooth - A blossom (Welsh blodyn)
* Goco - A bluebell
* Jonnick - Pleasant, agreeable
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Posted Last Week by devoncranwood
Almost all the rivers in Devon are from celtic words. I believe that many Devon place names were changed by the saxon ruling class. Cornish names were saved by norman conquest possibly by Breton landowners, and their isolation. In some areas of Devon there are farms which begin with the prefix "Tre", you have place names like Ide, Dunchideock, Dawlish (Black stream), Penquid (Pen coed). The first part of the word Cullompton comes from the old Devonian word for Knot (referring to the shape of the river).
12th Century Cornish form of the word for river was ‘Auon’ or ‘Aun’, which is remarkably similar to the Devon river name ‘Aune’. This raises the intriguing possibility that ‘Aune’ is derived from the 12th Century Cornish word ‘auon’ or ‘aun’, which would imply that the Cornish language was still in use in the South Dartmoor/South Hams district of Devon as late as the 12th Century
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