| 
Posted Apr 15, 2007 by Plymouth Exile
PennRecca,
Margaret Gelling (in “The Landscape of Place-Names”) also suggests a derivation of ‘Yarner’ from Old English ‘earn’ + ‘ofer’, meaning ‘eagle’s flat-topped ridge’. However, I find this proposed etymology to be somewhat contrived, as most of the place names containing the element ‘ofer’ have the term ‘over’ in them (e.g. ‘Bolsover’).
Furthermore, I have discovered that the old copper mine in Yarner Wood was called either ‘Yarner Mine’ or ‘Yarrow Mine’. Both names contain the element ‘yar’, and there is a Brythonic word ‘yar’, meaning ‘hen’ or ‘chicken’ (Cornish/Breton ‘yar’, Welsh ‘iar’). Although the plural of the Cornish version is given as ‘yer’, it could have been ‘yarow’ in Old Cornish.
There is also ‘Yar Tor’ above Dartmeet, which also seems to contain the ‘yar’ element.
|
 
|  | |
| |
Posted Apr 16, 2007 by PennRecca
Plymouth Exile
Thanks for your post. I’ve checked out Morton Nance’s dictionary: ‘hen’ is certainly another possibility.
I had overlooked Yar Tor, so have checked it up in the place-name book I mentioned in my previous post. Expecting to find ‘Eagle’ I found ‘Hart’ (Deer). I also looked at Yarninknowle Wood, which is given as ‘Eagles Hill’.
So, no clear answer: Eagle, Hen or Deer, they all seem plausible.
|
| | |
| |
Posted Apr 17, 2007 by Transmarinus
Hello everybody,
Remember that initial Y is a a semi-consonant often equivalent to a G in some dialectal forms. I think of the English pair Gate/Yate, of the Breton Geun/Yeun (a swamp) for instance. What could a Garrow or a Garner mean? Well, a deer in Breton is "karo" (written also karv or karw, according to different orthographic systems, "caroff" in Middle Breton) and it is "carow" in Cornish. Add to this a frequent lenition of inititial C giving a G (e.g. "an garoff" in Middle Breton). That is just another hypothesis. What do you think?
|
| | |
| |
Posted Apr 20, 2007 by PennRecca
Hi Transmarinus,
As you rightly say, ‘carow’ (Deer) can mutate to ‘garow’, but I’m not sure about ‘garow’ becoming ‘yarrow’ in dialect. I’m afraid I don’t recognise your gate/yate example. I apologise if I am wrong and your theory is good, in which case the possibilities would be; deer (with two possible origins), hen and eagle. The terrain of the area in question would likely suit all three.
I have found an advertising website which claims that ‘Yarner’ is Medieval French for ‘Where eagles soar’ (I guess this relates to ‘erne’). Do you by chance have any knowledge of Medieval French?
|
| | |
| |
Posted Apr 24, 2007 by Transmarinus
Hello PenRecca, your “eagle” idea seems to make sense. But it is rather linked to Old-English than to Old-French. Here are a few interesting entries.
In the gazetteer “Place names of Plymouth”:
Ernesettle, Yernesettle in 1281, Yernesetele in 1383. Thought to be derived from the Old English “ear” or eagle, and “setl” or seat, possibly refering to an eagle (sea eagle?) resting place
Here, you find an initial Y reflecting (as in Yarner) an old local pronounciation.
http://www.plymouthdata.info/Place-Names.htm
Old English, Frisian
Earn
From Germanic *arn-, from Indo-European *er-, *or-, eagle, large bird. Cognate with Old Saxon arn (Dutch arend), Old High German aro (German Aar), Old Norse oern (Swedish örn, Danish ørn), and, outside the Germanic languages, with Greek ornis, Armenian oror, gull, Old Irish irar (Irish iolar), Lithuanian erēlis, eagle, Russian оrёл, eagle.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/earn
English
Erne: bulky grayish-brown eagle with a short wedge-shaped white tail; of Europe and Greenland
http://www.answers.com/topic/erne
|
| | |
| |
Posted Apr 25, 2007 by Ozzie Exile
Transmarinus,
There are some problems with some of your suuggestions as detailed above, because this does comprehend how Devon placenames are pronounced,
"Ernesettle" is some way away from "yarner" where we started, but it is useful to knote that typically (for Devon) vowels are pronounced, and this is true for Ernesettle
Anyone from Plymouth would pronounce "Ernesettle" as "Urn-y-setal".
It is difficult to see how the anglo saxon "ear" (for eagle) and "setl" (being resting place), which would sound as 'ear-setl', could end up with the current pronounciation. For a start where would the consonant "n", or the additional vowel "y" or "e" come from??
Without a logical linkage for these key components I doubt that we can rely on such an origin.
|
| | |
| |
Posted May 2, 2007 by PennRecca
Well, I think the Eagle has the edge here, but of course nothing is certain. It is surely possible that not all the 'yar' elements derive from the same source, so the deer and the hen are equally valid.
Thank you all.
|
| | |
| |
Posted Aug 10, 2007 by raybell_scot
The "-Combe" suffix can be found in Kent as well, one of the first places to lose the Brythonic language.
|
| | |
| |
Posted Aug 10, 2007 by raybell_scot
"it seems to contain the element ‘yett’, which was a Brythonic word meaning ‘gate’"
It's also a middle English word meaning "Gate". It is still in use in Scottish dialect.
|
| | |
| |
Posted Aug 11, 2007 by Transmarinus
Thanks, raybell_scot to confirm that my Gate/Yate example, illustrating the dialectal change of initial G into Y (which is not uncommon in different languages) made sense  . But I don't see 'yett' being a "Brythonic word meaning 'gate'." It's a Germanic word.
|
| | |
| |
Posted Oct 21, 2007 by Newvonian
I recently returned from eight wonderful days in Devon. Driving north from Exeter I was surprised to pass through a little place called ‘Shute’. According to Richard Coates et. al. in “Celtic Voices English Places”, ‘Chute’ with a ‘C’ is a anglicized version of the Celtic word for forest. There is a Chute in eastern Wiltshire which is listed in ‘Celtic Voices English Places” as being a Celtic place name. Of course there is also a Shute in east Devon next to Axminster and a Shute Farm in South Milton. It seems to me very likely that the various ‘Shutes’ in Devon are also variants of the Celtic word for forest. If this is correct it would mean that the surname ‘Shute is also of Celtic derivation. Any comments?
|
| | |
| |
Posted Oct 22, 2007 by Plymouth Exile
Newvonian,
According to the Surname Profiler web site, the surname ‘Shute’ if found at high frequency in Devon. In the South West of England surnames often reflected where a person lived when they were first introduced in about the 13th century, so it is quite likely that the surname ‘Shute’ derived from a place called ‘Shute’. Certainly the Brythonic word ‘ced’ (‘wood’ or ‘forest’) occurs in various forms in Devon in attested Celtic place-names, e.g. as ‘chid’ (in Dunchideock), as ‘chard’ (in Morchard), as ‘chett’ (in Chettisholt), and as ‘quit’ (in Penquit). A softening of the ‘ch’ sound to ‘sh’ could well result in a ‘shute’ form of the term.
|
| | |
| |
Posted Mar 14, 2008 by FLYINWINTER
About the Celts and Saxons in the north and west of Devon. But I've come late to this conversation and perhaps you've all finished with it. Anyway, I read years ago (and I can't remember where) that some of the Saxons came down the Bristol Channel and landed at AberTaw (Appledore) and then marched east to execute a pincher movement on the Dumnonii in the battle of Copplestone (perhaps the one near Crediton).
A lot of the Saxons would have taken land near where they landed, and the writer said that the evidence of that is in the number of "worthy" place names in that area. So maybe the Celts in West Devon/North Cornwall were the first to lose their land.
Another name to note is Whalesborough, near Bude. Perhaps this "Welsh fort" marked an earlier frontier.
|
| | |
| |
Posted Jun 8, 2008 by Newvonian
In traditional Newfoundland speech the name ‘Edger’ is usually pronounced with the second and third consonants reversed rendering it as ‘Egder’. I had been wondering about this for sometime and it finally occurred to me that, although it may not at first appear to be so, this is actually another example of epenthesis and follows the practice mentioned by Ozzie Exile previously in this forum (Devon Place Names, Sept 22, 2005) that “Devon speech will not tolerate two consonants together”.
Although it may at first appear to be just a reversing of the consonants it also provides a way of inserting a vowel between them. The name is actually pronounced ‘eg ah der’ - although the ‘ah’ sound is quite soft, it is there. I wonder if this form of the name (Edger pronounced as Egder) is also found in Devon and, if so, if it might be a Celtic version of an English name.
|
| | |
| |
Posted Jun 10, 2008 by Newvonian
A quick correction: Of course, it is actually the first and second consonants that are reversed rendering ‘Edger’ as ‘Egder’.
|
| | |
| |
Posted Sep 26, 2008 by PennRecca
YARNER BEACON
Some time ago we were discussing the meaning of Yarner.
The Western Morning News have this week published on their website a short video of Yarner Beacon at Dartington. This is in their Sites of Special Sentimental Interest series.
The history of the site is discussed and, of course, we get to see it.
http://www.thisiswesternmorningnews.co.uk/wmnvideos.html
|
| | |
| |
Posted Dec 16, 2008 by Newvonian
Driving from Plymouth to Tavistock a little over a year ago I passed by a little place called Grenofen. This name certainly sounds like it could be of Celtic or Brythonic origin to me. Does anyone know where the name came from and what it means?
|
| | |
| |
| |
Key |  |  |
A: An older reply to the parent Posting
B: The parent Posting, to which this is a reply
C: A newer reply to the parent posting
D: The first reply to this Posting
| | |
Click on this icon to make a complaint about a specific Posting | |
|
Home
Reply
