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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Son of Roj Blake - Greetings Donkey Kong!
One point: I think this site is bound to get a massive influx of new users this summer. No prizes for guessing why.
The point of the place? Depends who you ask. Eclectic chat room? Maybe. Definitive repository of all world knowledge? No. Entertaining magazine with possibly some useful bits in it? Yes.
If I want to know something specific, I go to Wikipedia. I'm just more likely to get the info I'm looking for.
But if I want to just read something, anything, something entertaining, perhaps thought provoking, something I'll want to talk about to someone, and somewhere I'll be ABLE to talk about it to someone - h2g2 is the place, and there's no place like it.
H.
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by KerrAvon - Regret is a part of life. But keep it a small part.
Two weeks? I don't even I've ever spend more than half an hour on an entry.
Two obvious comments:
A) It shows
B) If I write that fast how come I've only managed 14 solo entries?
There. Now no-one else has to say it.
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by sprout
The quickest I've written an EG entry is about four hours work. The slowest took about twelve hours work. Ironically, no-one paid any attention at all to that entry, leading me to stop writing for the EG for a few months...
sprout
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Mina - Older on the outside, inside still 14
Well, I wasn't writing non-stop for two weeks - and I do often visit the places I write about, but yes, it can take a while.
My most recent entry in PR took me most of a Saturday to write.
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by LLWaz (I'm a figmental lammergeier and h2g2's AWESOME!)
It's me that's not writing good, Kelli. "...people responsible for running the place regard the community as a bit of a time-consuming annoyance..." is what I thought you meant.
I'd thought this was something only those arguing about EG guidelines and campaigning for more recognition of non EG writing had really come across. That's why I found it a bit dismaying. I didn't recall you're getting caught up in the discussions on those.
It would be a bad sign for h2g2 if the community in general started seeing themselves as a an annoyance.
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Smij
Hi all,
It's another one of those 'What have the Romans - sorry Italics - ever done for us' threads, eh? 
As ever, there are things here that we simply cannot discuss or be drawn on. You might be free to draw conclusions based on the limited information you have to hand but sadly such freedoms aren't always available to us. But there are a few points we can address.
The biggest one is that as you know the in-house team is a third the size it was when Natalie and I joined the BBC (although, strangely, it's 50% bigger than it was the day before Paul joined us - isn't maths baffling?). But the Community is bigger than it ever was. What we have worked towards over the last few years is enabling the Community to get on with its own activities without needing to have its hand held by us. Peer Review, the UnderGuide and The Post succeed solely due to the amount of enthusiasm the Community has to keep them going. If the Community isn't excited enough by a proposition to sustain it, then Natural Selection takes over - as it did with 'Have You Missed?'.
The UpdateForum came about after the previous update scheme was snowed under by people posting to say 'this needs updating' without offering much help on what to update and how. The Update scheme that I developed alongside the old updating team relies upon the Community itself doing the update, which means all we have to do is a quick scan, a copy and a paste. It also means that now, significantly updated entries appear on the Front Page.
Woodpigeon points out that being adventurous doesn't have to burn through money, and Traveller raises a very good point about grouping entries together. One of the first things I did when I joined the staff was created the h2g2 Guide to the Solar System (A482933), adding clear 'journeys' between related entries. It was a small thing, only took a morning, but it works quite nicely. One of our fave projects was We Didn't Start the Fire (A2700488) which again was an inventive, quirky way at tackling a topic and brought many people together. But we've also promoted clubs and societies regularly, when people have told us about them.
Kelli wrote:
>> I overheard one of the eds selling the site to her as being *entirely* about the EG, and trying to get her to sign up <<
That wasn't *quite* what was said, Kelli. Once a salesman always a salesman - hearing that your friend was new to the site, I was evangelising one part of the site I really love (it was, after all, the part I was originally hired to develop). I don't think your friend was exactly missing out on people wanting her to find her own way to enjoy the site; you've already told your friend about other aspects of the site I'm sure. But no, h2g2 isn't *entirely* about the Edited Guide any more than it's *entirely* a tribute to Douglas Adams or a place to show off how good at debating you are.
On the subject of the meet-up though, I should also mention that that meet-up took place on our day off. None of the team received a day in lieu or recompense (yes, those rounds I bought came out of my own pocket - aren't I nice, eh?). We simply wouldn't have been there if we didn't want to be, and we had a great time. Hope your friend did too, but if my 'hard sell' put her off, please pass on my humblest apologies. h2g2 has a habit of creating evangelists, but it's easy to forget not everyone will be at the same level of enthusiasm.
By the way, we are still doing collaborative entries. There's one on the Front Page this week. Because collating them used to take one Italic an entire week to do, we can't afford to collate them all ourselves any more (though we have done a few, such as 'What it was Like in the 1960s - A2450549), but there have been some fantastic collaborative entries put through Peer Review - just take a look at the entries on Sherlock Holmes (A2773415) or Kate Bush (A3502568).
Waz has hit the nail on the head here - h2g2 is about collaborating within a community, of which the Edited Guide is a part. Every member of the h2g2 team has at some point had reason to remember that this site would be nothing without its community - we certainly don't see the Community as an 'annoyance' and we don't see any call for the Community to see itself as such. But we make no apologies for being proud of and excited by the Edited Guide, and we're looking to continue to develop it in a variety of ways. Likewise, there's nothing to stop you promoting your own h2g2 activities (within the limits of taste, decency and other House Rules concerns) and evangelising outside of the BBC garden just as, presumably, you always have done. And if we can help you in any way, give us a shout and we'll see what we can do.
Jim, Natalie and Paul
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Number Six
My main hope is that the influx of new researchers in the summer will contribute new entries about lots of places that haven't made it into the Edited Guide so far.
When I came to h2g2, it wasn't quite as I expected, and nor did it develop in the way DNA expected (A550955). On the other hand, I found lots of other things I did like, and I stayed. I read lots of interesting things, I tried to write interesting things, but without really intending to I seem to have joined the 'community' and met a lot of interesting people on here which is the main reason I've not left since.
Eventually I got around to setting up the Geographical Institute to try and encourage people to write the kinds of entries about places that I came to the Guide to read in the first place. It's over at A1286886, for anyone that hasn't come across it yet and fancies a look.
I'm hoping this can be a way - not THE way, but A way - forward for the Guide, whether Edited or not, especially in terms of getting people to contribute to it.
But the community is important as well. I used to spend all my time in Peer Review or writing things and became a Sub-Ed and a Scout - but I don't get the time to do much of that any more, and I've had to hand my badges in. So if I hadn't got into the 'community' end of things, I'd probably have left the site by now and would just be a very occasional visitor.
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Mina - Older on the outside, inside still 14
Your comments about the Collaborative entries reminds me I promised to collate the Great Fire.
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by  Mrs Zen - has added Google Wave to her thumbnails in Chrome
Um. Jimster. My question is not "which is more important, the EG or the Community", though what you have said provides an interesting and detailed response to that question (was it one of the ones I kicked off, with? I cannot remember). It's an answer which will provide much comfort, I am sure.
My question is "What is h2g2's place in Internet-Land?" and that is a question I really *would* be interested to hear some italicised answers to.
Ben
PS - I did *not* want this to be an Italic-bashing thread. I do hope it hasn't felt like it.
PPS - It was good to see you at the meet, and I hope you know I thought so.
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Kelli - 89/89 pre-babies weight reached. 7/21 to wedding weight
Jimster, thanks for the response  I wasn't trying to bash the italics either, just say how the site feels now. I appreciate that you have got far fewer staff trying wrangle far more researchers, and with that in mind it seems to me as though you guys *have* to focus on something (you can only be spread so thin after all) and it appears as though the EG is it. We don't see you about much in the community because there are only so many hours in the day and only so much work you can get done, so you have to select what you do, I get it. I wonder what that means for the future direction of the site.
It was good to see so many slopey folks at the meet, we know it is your day off but you did seem to be enjoying yourselves  , wish my work-related evenings out were so much fun *picture a bunch of people shuffling and making smalltalk in the pub after work, all nursing a lemonade because they are driving and all wondering how early they can make their excuses and leave while still being polite* I have one of these hellish events to attend on Thursday 
 k
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Smij
Hi B, as you've worked out, my response was directed at some of the side issues here. As for what the site's position is, well it's the centre of our universes, and from what we've seen most people who have the misfortune to be sat next to us tend to slowly see how great the site is too (we're spreading evangelism like a virus).
h2g2's position within the BBC has taken a while to settle. When I first joined the Beeb we were pretty much in what might be called 'splendid isolation' (a term I've been very fond of ever since I studied Victorian ho=istory), but we've worked very hard to improve things on that front. The main bbc.co.uk page links to us more regularly now, thanks to our chums on the Homepage team, and we're linked to from a few other places within the BBC now. We've even had two very sexy promos shaped around the site recently, and we suspect they won't be the only ones to come.
Then there's the movie and radio series, which have already done us us a lot of good, and we haven't even started there really.
I would imagine, possibly correctly, that questions like the ones being asked here are raised out of concern for the future of h2g2. With the cuts across the BBC some divisions have elected to spend their budgets in places other than messageboards and online forums, and hopefully those repositionings will allow them to produce great work in other areas. Nothing is set in stone of course, but the movie is undoubtedly a major factor in our survival, as is the fact that we've already cut a lot of our overheads. Personally though, I genuinely believe the best way to assure h2g2's future is to write entries for the Edited Guide, or collaborate with other people to write them. But then I would say that, and if that's not your bag then no worries.
Sorry, just a sidestep for a moment - I've just this second realised that there was one conversation Kelli might have overheard that could well have led her to misinterpret what was being said. Not that I'm going to explain what it was about. Not yet anyway 
Jims
(going home now)
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Kelli - 89/89 pre-babies weight reached. 7/21 to wedding weight
Well I left out a bit I heard about naming things, to spare everyone's blushes
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Smij
Nah, it's gonna be me, innit - Bigmouth!
*Really* going home now. Honest!
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Gnomon [See A60420098 for details of new sign-in system]
I've said on a number of occasions that for me, h2g2 _is_ the Edited Guide. Well, that's a load of rubbish. It's the idea I have in my head, but it's not true. h2g2 is for me a lot more than just writing good Guide Entries. I've met loads of friends, and while I'm not as impressed by the general silliness of the site as some people seem to be, I still enjoy a good chat with my friends. This keeps me coming back to the site even when I haven't any ideas for new entry.
But I do live for the Edited Guide. I have always wanted to explain the world, and have always been complimented on how I am able to do that, in simple terms that everybody can understand. I've always been looking for somewhere where I can publish my explanations to reach the maximum number of people. I had even started writing a series of articles on my computer, which I called "The Guide" - with unspoken apologies at the time to Douglas Adams. I was delighted when I discovered h2g2. Here was somewhere which didn't just tolerated me but actively encouraged me.
Having said that, I feel that everybody can write an Edited Entry. We all know something about a topic that nobody specialises in. The first few Edited Entries are the easiest, as you can just pick something that you love with a passion and write everything you know. It gets harder after 15 or 20 (Hi, Kerr!) as you've exhausted the easy topics and have to start actually doing some research. The Richard Strauss entry was the first one I wrote that required me to actually looks something up - before that I just wrote straight out of my head.
So don't be daunted by the thought of writing an Entry. Get something down and put it into Peer Review. Be sure to mention that it is your first attempt and we'll be helpful and supportive.
h2g2's place in Internet-Land?
It's the Guide!
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Posted Mar 2, 2005 by Jimi X
Gnomon, if I'm ever on the eastern side of the Atlantic or you're in Pennsylvania, the first  is on me!
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Posted Mar 2, 2005 by KerrAvon - Regret is a part of life. But keep it a small part.
One question I keep asking myself is what exactly does the community need, in terms of support? Surely by it's very nature it exisits without support. The communirt is about 'talking' to each other- there's no end product like an EG entry that needs 'approving'. Not that that is a bad thing, but I can't really see what italic support the community needs. Someone enlighten me?
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Posted Mar 2, 2005 by Gnomon [See A60420098 for details of new sign-in system]
The only thing the community needs from the italics is an occasional wave,  or even  . As long as we know they know we're there nattering away, we can carry on with the nattering.
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Posted Mar 2, 2005 by KerrAvon - Regret is a part of life. But keep it a small part.
Ah I see. So we're talking about the dropping into threads that Abi/Mina used to do? Yes, I can see that was good for the community to feel wanted/recognised, but I can also see that the current team A) don't have time and B) aren't that sort of staff anyway.
It it a shame we don't have some sort of community assistant anymore.
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Posted Mar 2, 2005 by LLWaz (I'm a figmental lammergeier and h2g2's AWESOME!)
"It's another one of those 'What have the Romans - sorry Italics - ever done for us' threads, eh?"
No, that wasn't my intention either  - my strand of the thread was an 'I'm worried about how I see the site going/changing'. Sometimes perceptions matter more than intentions; I regret shoving the thread in that direction.
I do appreciate what you've done and continue to do for h2g2. And I know you're under pressure too.
There are things I want to take up from recent posts but they're side issues so I'll say them elsewhere.
On h2g2's place in internet-land, perhaps others' perceptions of us might give some clues as to where h2g2 currently is?
There was a post on another DNA site referring to us a 'galactic dictionary of sorts,' we're also perceived as weird and geekish. I suspect that latter image is one the italics are trying hard to dispel.
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