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Posted Feb 28, 2005 by LLWaz (I'm a figmental lammergeier and h2g2's AWESOME!)
Interesting that this has become focused on the writing side of h2g2.
My  for each question:
What do we do that no other site does? Provide for possibilities. On h2 we can do almost anything; have serious debates, role play, write interactive stories, write encylopaedic entries, chat, visit virtual pubs and workshop poetry. It's all about learning, communicating, writing and exercising imagination. h2 gives us the space and tools to grow.
What do we do better than any other site? Provide for that range of growth.
Are we a cult site? No
Should we be a cult site? No (I hate that other DNA communities seem to see us as geeks and weirdos  ).
Have we dropped the ball for being a popularly created on-line Encyclopaedia? Yes.
Does it matter that Wikkipaedia has that on-line high ground? No. Truth is the www is the data for the Guide to Life etc and Google et al the guide to it. Wikipedia's just a particularly encylopaedic set of pages in it. H2 needs to be it's own identifiable set of pages in it (now Google can find us again perhaps we will be).
How can we be ambasadors for BBCi online within the Internet at large? Do we want to be? We're BBCi's customers - little though they seem to see us that way  .
Does it matter that all of the researchers for whom English is a second laanguage joined before the site became part of the BBC? Yes.
Should we be trying for greater internationalism? Yes, yes and yes.
Is the site about the Edited Guide or about writing including the Edited Guide? The second. The EG is very important in giving a focus but too limiting to have everything centred around it. The best EG will come from a stimulated, well rounded, thriving community.
Is there an overall strategic view for where we should be in Internet-Land and what we should be doing there? Not that I've detected. It seems to change. Mark Moxon said it was the commnuity aspect of h2g2 that the BBC was interested in. That seems to have changed. There's little staff/community contact today and going by the response to discussions here, the sense of being an involved community is dwindling. The official focus now seems to be the EG but I don't see any evidence of any strategy in placing the EG in Internet-Land.
What should we be doing as Hootizens to improve the site? Keep our heads down, keep quiet, be happy with what we've got and let the staff get on with the job <tongueincheeksmiley>? Seriously - I don't know what is wanted of Hootizens anymore.
I mean, when you get down to it, what's it all about? Alfie (son of Rupert, and the third age of Hootoo).
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Posted Feb 28, 2005 by sprout
Taking questions in batches:
What's best about the site: the decent level of contributions and conversation (on the whole) and the variety. I started three years ago writing EG articles and making the odd posting in Ask, I have since written a travel journal, some mountaineering stories, an analysis of bits of the unedited guide, poetry, opinion pieces and so on. Would I have managed to make that leap if I hadn't been encouraged by the opportunity here? Maybe not.
Are we/should we be a cult site: The site is big enough for several cults - . But that is not what most of the people on here are doing, nor should it be the aim of the site. If people/staff on other DNA sites see us that way, I would suggest that is more their problem than ours.
Encyclopaedia: Completely impossible at current rate of progress and with current demographic. Probably undesirable. However, the EG is nearly always funnier, generally better explained and often more reliable than wikipedia. It contains subjects that wikipedia would/could never handle - eg 'song' entries. I guess we should concentrate on the quality angle of things, and not worry too much about the fact that we don't have any entries on half the world... Even if this western-centric focus does depress me a little.
Internationalism: definitely - I like the international aspect of hootoo, even if it is mainly english speakers. It is nearly the only DNA site with any possibility for people outside of the UK to use it - collective, Ican - all UK specific.
Our role for the BBC: small cog in big machine, unfortunately. The best we can hope for is benign neglect.
sprout - Hootoo's ambassador in Belgium
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Posted Feb 28, 2005 by *abbi normal - "Putting on the Ritz" with Dr Frankenstein
What do we do that no other site does?
"Provide for possibilities. On h2 we can do almost anything...
It's all about learning, communicating, writing and exercising imagination.... h2 gives us the space and tools to grow."
 I like h2 for those reasons LLWaz
With the past commentary and strong feelings about what the site is for I would have thought there would be more comments by now.
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Posted Feb 28, 2005 by  Mrs Zen - has added Google Wave to her thumbnails in Chrome
Abbi, I am disappointed but not particularly surprised by the fairly slow posting here. Disappointed because it implies a lack of passion, and there used to be people here who were passionate about the place, and not particularly surprised because I have asked some difficult questions.
For the record, I do think that h2g2 is unique in Internet-Land, and considerably more special than the BBC realises. (But with 'Get Writing' the Beeb had the chance to create something as uniquely formative in the history of the nation's literature as Malcolm Bradbury's Creative Writing BA in the 1970s. They blew it, which is criminal).
One of the things that the BBC has here is an international small town. It could be a forum for English-Speaking people of all nations to come together, and once it nearly was. However the BBC is the *British* Broadcasting Corporation and so - hey - hands across the ocean is not within the remit. But those of you who were here on the 9th September 2001 will remember having your boundaries blown by the shared inter-national shock of the thing, as we came out of our h2g2 ghettos and shared our fear in the public spaces.
Regarding the Encyclopaedia thing, I mind enormously that my copy of Trillian provides automagic links to Wikkipaedia when it identifies a long word and not to the Edited Guide. (Trillian is a utility which provides a single interface for all the IM programmes, including MSN, Y!, AIM, ICQ and others).
This was a place in cyberspace waiting to be inhabited, and it is clear that no-one in the Towers is thinking in terms of this sort of strategic positioning. I guess it depends on whether Cerulean approached Wikkipaedia, or Wikkipaedia approached Cerulean, but either is equally damning.
What other ways of promoting an on-line encyclopaedia might there be? Maybe the dictionary sites would like to link to one? Maybe the translation sites would? Maybe... maybe... maybe...
I am not fully clear myself on what we could be doing out there in Cyber-Space. If it was my game I would be asking the community for ideas; I would be running internal workshops to brainstorm and define the long and medium term strategies for positioning and promoting the site; and I would actively market it within and outside the BBC. I think that the Italics are doing and have done some of these things, but without the strategic vision, everything else is muddy and moot.
I am still interested, still curious, what other people think that strategic vision might be.
Ben
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Posted Feb 28, 2005 by Jimi X
I think our niche should be to provide *human* details as opposed to Wikki's dry statistics.
Their entry on Middletown, Pennsylvania tells you the size of the town in square miles and population. It also breaks it down into socio-economic statistics like the median income for a household in the borough is $35,425, and the median income for a family is $43,661. 
Our entry tells you where to eat, what to order, which bar has the best jukebox and what you can do while you're in town...
If I wanted US Census data, I'd visit www.census.gov. Their regurgitation of that information doesn't really thrill me.
- Jimi X
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Posted Feb 28, 2005 by Traveller in Times >42 )^( _
Traveller in Time  only 'recent' part of the community
"There are still Researchers joining for whom english is not the mother tongue 
I think part of the site  is the research aspect. You have to perform active research to find your way around HooToo. Perhaps we are not just members of this site we are researchers for the Guide.
I have been doing aimless research for years, collecting information, just as a goal. Here any collection of information is directly part of the (unedited) Guide. Perhaps I should put something up into a review forum, ever. 
One reason for this forum not being very popular is that not every researcher has pressed the [inform me] button. (But there are so many important, interesting and weird forums to be informed of.) "
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Posted Feb 28, 2005 by Woodpigeon
Ben, I share your concern - what I don't see around here is a dynamic plan for the site - a sense of energy which says "hey, we're doing this right now, but what if we started doing this?" Its not so much about "what do we want to be like in 5-years time" sort of rubbish - it's a sense of experimentalism and drive to expand the boundaries. In the pre-Rupert days that energy and vision was there, I think, and a lot of credit needs to go to the Italics back then. They experimented with WAP for a while, Peer Review was utterly transformed, the volunteer schemes were created etc. etc. And we might not always have agreed with them, but they were robust in their defense of the site and their policies for it.
Now I think change is somewhat more reactive. It seems to occur, if it occurs at all, out of necessity rather than out of a sense of adventure, and even then the changes are relatively small.
Of course the criticism could be levelled that the old H2G2 did all that and ended up burning through money like nobody's business, but I don't think that a sense of adventure for a site always has to carry a huge price-tag. It needs a bit of creativity and some planning, and maybe a few hours extra effort but if it ends up being a greater community, a greater marketing platform for bbc.co.uk and bringing more people into it, then its worth it.
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Traveller in Times >42 )^( _
Traveller in Time dreaming of a multi media adventure
"Such as why not play (a little) with sound? I think the BBC (BBCi is thename of the interactive television, we are part of the 'New Media ') does not dare  , well even 'Animated Gif' is abandoned.
What could be a 'Short term goal' ?
--Creating a World tour in the Edited Guide ? (connecting all major <train>  stations, air and  ship ports as far as they become Entries) < A3363833 >
--Supporting the campaign to be named 'Tony Curtis' < A3717641 >
--Share and Enjoy, support our fellow dna sites, joining the campaign on Ican and support our GetWriting neighbors fighting to keep their site.
--Retrospective wonder what society Researchers < http://www.cc.gatech.edu/classes/AY...rchstudy/webconsent_h2g2_study.html > are looking for on HooToo.
--Make a study of HooToo itself, perhaps even a Guide Entry. 
--Make Poverty History < A3599328 >
Just to give some breaking news
"
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Traveller in Times >42 )^( _
Traveller in Time fianlly reading todays frontpage <fup>
"--Make Poverty History: < A2904518 >
 should have connected them long ago. . .
Still pondering over a virtual tube trip. "
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by kea
>> (BBCi is thename of the interactive television, we are part of the 'New Media ')<<
Ah, so that is where the name BBCi went.
In terms of the slowness of this thread, it might have had more discussion if it had been on The Forum, or even Ask. However slow isn't necessarily bad. I've been subbed for a week, and only just gotten to reading the whole thing properly - if it had been a fast thread I wouldn't have caught up and would probably have unsubscribed.
Sometimes good things take time to build.
I think it's interesting though that more people are going to places like The Forum and Ask, than Community Feedback.
>>I am not fully clear myself on what we could be doing out there in Cyber-Space. If it was my game I would be asking the community for ideas; <<
I think this is an excellent idea. In terms of a vision or dynamic plan, is there any reason that in the first instance the community couldn't do the ground work? Does anyone want to start an A page where we can do those brainstorming processes? (the A page being a central place that people can be made aware of). It would need some organising though, and someone with the skills to facilitate it.
kea.
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by *abbi normal - "Putting on the Ritz" with Dr Frankenstein
From B
"Disappointed because it implies a lack of passion, and there used to be people here who were passionate about the place, and not particularly surprised because I have asked some difficult questions."
I will try some questions
There is a lot of passion but it is not particuarly focused  I hoped posting might bring a bit more attention the thread I will keep hoping because these are important questions if h2 is to stay.
************
What makes it unique?
My first impressions during visits to this site  It was about encouraging all kinds of writing. I also had the impression it was a peoples interests in exploring the universe and everything in a way proudly unlike an encyclopedia 
I liked the higher level of communication present.
By that I mean sharing ideas not insults.
You could pick people brains instead of picking on them.
Seemed it was about sharing practical information about "how to " get around in the universe not facts and figures. Sharing different cultures,attitudes and persuasions. I thought it would be a more varied poulation country wise. I was turned off by the US sites. This was the first place that encouraged real growth to a wide audiance and membership. It was not chat and it had so many areas to explore and build on.
I see many articles that could become forums.
It seems people are fairly comfortable with forum setups when wide but common areas of interests are involved.
Not sure that helps but that is what I found novel ( no dna punintended *giggle* )The various threads about why people joined may hold some valuable insights.
*******
Sorry I forget who mentioned in an above post about doing a study on the site.
There is a Phd from Georgia (US)I believe wanting to study this site and others.
I ran across a post about it somewhere. My computer has not been reliable or I would promise to hunt it down and post. Sorry about no spell check  any added programs ans it freezes my computer.
I would rather the "community" (as a wide community as B mentioned) study itself .
************
I hope more passion gets expressed. A lot of work has gone into this place and a lot of people deserve credit. Keeping the best of what works and honoring the unique may be the best way to encourage more life.
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Gnomon [See A60420098 for details of new sign-in system]
Talking to Jimster at the London meetup, the drive to change is there. He is full of new ideas as to how we can move forward. But he doesn't seem to discuss these on the site. So I'm not going to mention them.
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Traveller in Times >42 )^( _
Traveller in Time on his snowcap
"We will 'Wait and See' "
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Kelli - 89/89 pre-babies weight reached. 7/21 to wedding weight
I've been reading here but am still not sure of what to post in response to the questions.
I don't really contribute to the EG much. I occasionally comment on stuff in PR but I've only ever written one article myself. My biggest contribution to the EG was in the form of collaborative entries but we don't do those any more. I've always felt slightly guilty that I don't contribute more to the guide, but I never feel that I write well enough or know enough about stuff.
When I signed up (July 2001, I think not long after the BBC took over?) I felt that the EG was the driver of the whole site, and the community was a pleasant sideshow. The focus of TPTB then seemed to shift towards building the community. Now it feels very much like the community is back being a sideshow, but one that is a pain in the butt.
I use h2g2 as a place to meet and talk to interesting people who don't immediately ask me a/s/l. I have learned a lot from the EG and usually read the front page articles.
As for where we are going an what the strategy should be, I don't know. I feel slightly at odds with the view that the EG is the most important part of the site and should be the focus of all future development, but the community wouldn't be the same without the sort of people that are attracted to hootoo because it gives them the oportunity to write.
Wow, I've typed a lot of lines here and not said very much. Hmmm, part of the problem then
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Woodpigeon
Hi Kelli - I'm not sure if anyone is saying that the EG should be the only focus for further development - it would be a shame if it were. We all know that the community is far more than just the EG. I'm talking about further development of the site in toto. What could be done, in general to bring more people to us, to enrichen the experience? How its done, or to what segment of H2G2 its done to, should be immaterial.
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by LLWaz (I'm a figmental lammergeier and h2g2's AWESOME!)
I think you said a great deal Kelli.
That someone outside the whole EG/UG thing (which I think you are?) has a sense of the community being a pain in the butt is a surprise to me. Bit dismaying really, if I'm understanding it right.
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Kelli - 89/89 pre-babies weight reached. 7/21 to wedding weight
No, you are reading me wrong. I *love* the community part of the site but I think some of the people responsible for running the place regard the community as a bit of a time-consuming annoyance that eats time they could be spending on the EG.
I tole you i dunt rite too gud
I recently (and some might say unkindly) exposed a non-hootoo friend of mine to a hootoo meet. I overheard one of the eds selling the site to her as being *entirely* about the EG, and trying to get her to sign up and write about various topics "Where do you come from, you should sign up and write about there". Because I know her, I know that she doesn't have the time or spare capacity to think about contributing in that way, but wooing her with the community, and getting her involved in the site may well lead to her wanting to write stuff here when her life settles down a bit.
I can't answer Ben's questions about what this place is for but I suspect that the site will wither and die if we don't attract new researchers, either through the community or through the EG. I think the recent steps taken to raise the profile of hootoo on Google will help enormously in getting a turnover of people looking at the site. How do we get them to stay/sign up?
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Kelli - 89/89 pre-babies weight reached. 7/21 to wedding weight
Oh, and I should add that I don't regard myself as 'outside' anything. I just don't contribute much to the EG at the moment.
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Witty Moniker [Glad she has a short, snappy name that won't cause any BBCid problems... er, oops]
Like Kelli, I have also contributed little to the edited guide. Chiming in on those collaborative entries used to help me deal with the guilt. I manage the guilt now by reading the front page guide entries. I figure, what is the purpose of writing those entries of nobody other than the authors and peer review is reading them? And are we officially down to two guide entries a day? I thought it was three.
I also get the feeling that the social side of hootoo is like an annoying fly buzzing around the italics. Something to be put up with in order to produce the Edited Guide. While do I feel this way? Because of their lack of participation in much other than the EG.
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Posted Mar 1, 2005 by Mina - Older on the outside, inside still 14
Contributing the the EG both as a writer and a brief spell as a sub-editor has helped my career a lot. I'm not a natural writer - I once took over two weeks to write an entry, then I watched Ashley write one in about 20 minutes - but I can do it if I try.
I use those skills in work now, and without the EG I'd be a poorer person (both in skills, experiences and frankly money).
When Rupert came I'd a total of 2 EG entries in 18 months, and had no badges. When the site came back I realised how much I missed it and immediately started volunteering and writing for the Guide because I think if something's worth having, it's worth working to keep. And I enjoy the community side a lot, although I don't tend to join in community activities very often.
On the other hand, there was a chap who arrived on h2g2, contributed around 50 entries *very* quickly, and then kind of wandered off. I think that a balance of both is more important than one or the other.
I do think though, that if there was just the EG, then I would continue contributing to the Guide, although maybe at a slower rate (a lot of my ideas come to me after chatting with other members). But if there was just community, then I wouldn't still be here over 5 years later. I like Douglas's books, but there's other things I like more, and spend more time doing that also offer 'just' communities.
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