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Posted Oct 28, 2009 by María del Mar
I said 'not sure' about what should I say, not about your words.
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Posted Oct 28, 2009 by Wand'rin star
I, personally, would parse 'there' as a placeholder for the subject of the sentence. Older grammars called it a 'dummy subject' meaning it doesn't carry a lexical meaning.
When I was at school (eons ago)articles were parsed as adjectives, describing the following nouns. This seems nonsensical nowadays and articles belong to a separate class into which some of us want to put what used to be called 'demonstrative pronouns' (this,that, these, those) What are your thoughts on that one?
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Posted Oct 28, 2009 by María del Mar
When I parse a noun phrase I use these terms:
Determiner: which can be articles, demostratives, possesive adjetives or pronouns-my, your..., indefined pronouns( each, every...), numerals, etc.
nucleus: the noun or any nominalized word or structure ( The riches, Those who...)
Noun complement: an adjetive or a relative clause or another noun phrase working as adjetive.
There´s also many different ways to parse sentences in Spanish, but I think that the most logical way is that where we make a clear difference between form and function. It´s also the best way to teach syntax. Language seen as a mecano. The same piece can have different functions depending on the place you put it.
So the piece/form noun can work as a subject, a direct object...
An adjetive can be a noun complement, a subject complement (predicative, They seem tired, attribute, They are tired) etc.
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Posted Oct 28, 2009 by María del Mar
if you have survived my last post, you´ll be able to read a bit more:
<<<nucleus: the noun or any nominalized word or structure ( The riches, Those who...)<<
Sorry, 'Those who...' isn´t a nominalized structure. I messed it with Spanish.
'Those' is the nucleus and 'who...' the noun (pronoun, in this case) complement
  to compensate for the 
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Posted Oct 28, 2009 by ~ jwf ~ the darkest day is done, Yay! here comes the son
>> I've written two myself and am currently transferring the second from book to website. <<
I do hope you will let us know where to access it when available.
~jwf~
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Posted Oct 28, 2009 by Wand'rin star
It'll be a long haul - I'm waiting for uni funding, but will probably do it anyway. I'm also thinking of tackling a project called 'Lift your English' where the mistake is posted outside the lift doors and the animated answer is posted in the lift, but this is even further towards the back of the stove. (partly because I'm not so good at the animation prog)
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Posted Oct 29, 2009 by Rudest Elf
In case Wand'rin star has left you in any doubt, María: http://tinyurl.com/yg3u5lo
[Googling 'Who is it?' produced nearly 5 million results, including this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOfNQ_CPdAo ]
I find it very hard to believe that anyone on this thread can honestly deny that the phrases offered earlier are in use daily throughout the English-speaking world - quite possibly millions of times.
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Posted Oct 29, 2009 by  Mrs Zen - has Google Wave <smug>
Who said it wasn't?
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Posted Oct 29, 2009 by Rudest Elf
Hello! *It's* me again. 
Please ignore the first link on 15867. We are discussing phrases such as 'Who is it?' (or 'who is that?' - no one likes to be referred to as 'that' either, do they?).
Posting 15868: "Nobody denies that." Gnomon 
Posting 15829: "I don't think "it" is ever correct when referring to an adult." Gnomon
Posting 15837: "I dispute that "Who is it?" refers to people ." Wand'rin star
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Posted Oct 29, 2009 by Gnomon [See A60420098 for details of new sign-in system]
Elf,
It is important to note the order in which things are said, not just what has been said.
I said 'I don't think "it" is ever correct when referring to an adult."
Subsequently, somebody pointed out the phrase "Who is it?".
This does not mean that I deny that the phrase "Who is it?" is in daily use throughout the English-speak world. So I don't see why you are puzzled.
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Posted Oct 29, 2009 by Rudest Elf
What a tangled web you weave!
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Posted Oct 29, 2009 by Mrs Zen - has Google Wave <smug>
Ok, so we've established that "It's" is frequently used as a placeholder even when what it is referring to is a person, and Maria is Spanish, not stupid, so I am sure she has got that particular point.
What next?
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Posted Oct 29, 2009 by Gnomon [See A60420098 for details of new sign-in system]
Elf, I suppose it was inevitable given your name that you would include veiled insults in your comments.
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Posted Oct 29, 2009 by ~ jwf ~ the darkest day is done, Yay! here comes the son
Oi! Rudy, over here buddy.
I'm setting up a shelter for misunderstood geniuses.
Sometimes folks get their knickers twisted so tight they won't see humour or irony
even when you  it to them.
Now if you'll excuse me I gotta get back to figuring out how 2legs seems to be the only one
who gets away with it anymore. Not that one wants to actually turn into a drunken clown.
BTW: Help yourself to the porridge.
There's plenty left if you don't mind it cold.
Some say it's better served that way.
~boo~
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Posted Oct 29, 2009 by Recumbentman
Nothing rude about the Elf: he is (I learn from the Cryptic Clues thread) merely anagramming 'Flustered'.
Should he let Gnomon off? Gnomon was referring to usages other than 'Who is it' which was introduced after his comment. Either Gnomon regards that as extending the set of usage under discussion, or he admits he just hadn't thought of it, in which case 'Touché' would be an appropriate response.
About placeholders: linguistic philosophy, by which I mean Wittgenstein, warns us of the endless problems we can give ourselves by naming something and then taking the name to imply a grammatical fact. The value of the word 'placeholder' is its vacuous neutrality.
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Posted Oct 29, 2009 by Mrs Zen - has Google Wave <smug>
I value vacuous neutrality highly.
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Posted Oct 29, 2009 by Wand'rin star
I'm still disputing IT. Actually, IT doesn't matter at all what sex you think IT is. As long as what you say or write is acceptable to the majority, IT's OK.
If you are not a native speaker, IT helps to have pegs to hang your knowledge on. My recent Chinese maths and computer students found the idea of placeholders helpful. Earlier Polish students were more likely to have had a classical grammar backround, and probably found Swan more useful.
Like Mrs Zen, I also value vacuous neutrality highly.
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Posted Oct 29, 2009 by Recumbentman
Nice list of varied its, WS .
When my eldest son was about 13 my wife gave me the Shorter Oxford Dictionary. He was keen to look up some long complicated word, but I told him that the long words usually have straightforward explanations; it's the shortest words that get the longest entries. His response:
>>You mean, if we looked up "it" it would probably say something like "The periculus of the perambulum"?<<
Gone into the family folklore.  
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Posted Oct 30, 2009 by ~ jwf ~ the darkest day is done, Yay! here comes the son
>> Actually, IT doesn't matter at all what sex you think IT is. <<
That may be our modern politically correct position but in 1927
Clara Bow starred in a classic silent film called 'IT'.
And whatever IT was she had it.
She became known as the IT girl.
FOR YOUR AMUSEMENT AND EDIFICATION:
Scenes from that classic film set to a favourite Beatles' ditty:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji5QeXhjnw4
~jwf~
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