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Posted Mar 25, 2003 by Ictoan S.H.A.D.O.W. Secretary - AWE - WAWi
I think he meant a naranga...
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Posted Mar 25, 2003 by Wand'rin star
No, but there was a norange.
My biog includes 7 miserable years at a grammar school in the south east, where I was taught to say a if the h was pronounced and an if it was not. Since graduating in linguistics and English language, I have taught English for almost 40 years. So, "what I don't know just isn't knowledge" 
Practically the first thing that our revered linguistics prof. said to us was that as lifelong speakers of English we knew as much about it as anybody else. So, if you disagree that's fine. Just be sure that you say an, where I say a in 'a hotel breakfast' 'a hotel kitchen' 'a hotel bedroom' 'a hotel porter' etc
(You're not pretentious. Neither is your father. But the teachers that taught you were - the probably raised their little fingers when drinking tea, as well) 
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Posted Mar 25, 2003 by Ictoan S.H.A.D.O.W. Secretary - AWE - WAWi
Star, my pronunciation is actually a completely mixed bag. I am very unlikely to say 'an hotel' unless I was being pretentious on purpose But that wasn;t what I was taught. Same as I mix the hard and soft 'a' sound and will quite happily say ga-rage one breath and gar-idge the next. Just to keep people guessing
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Posted Mar 25, 2003 by Mikey Pie
I agree about knowing as much about English as anybody else, to a degree. I think that written English is the last hold-out of the non-stupid anti-badgrammarites, and with popular language changing at the pace it does, there must be some hold out for a "proper" English when appropriate. I just wish our president here in the States had learned it! 
"I would like to underpunctuate my point on that point" -celebrity impersonation of GW. 
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Posted Mar 25, 2003 by Mikey Pie
I think Norange might be a bad example, here's it's muddy history:
[Middle English, from Old French pume orenge, translation and alteration (influenced by Orenge Orange, a town in France), of Old Italian melarancio mela, fruit + arancio, orange tree (alteration of Arabic nayranj, from Persian nayrang, from Sanskrit nayrangah, possibly of Dravidian origin).]
got dictionary.com? 
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Posted Mar 25, 2003 by Mikey Pie
If you are unsure of which is correct, a or an, you may prefer to simply preface the noun in question with an adjective, as in, "You are a f***ing 'ore." See how that avoids the 'ole problem?
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Posted Mar 25, 2003 by Gnomon [See A60420098 for details of new sign-in system]
>>there must be some hold out for a "proper" English when appropriate
My daughter tried to persuade me that 'theirselves' was acceptable English, because many people in her school say it. At what point does it stop being bad grammar and start being a dialect?
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Posted Mar 25, 2003 by Mikey Pie
"Yo G, whatup homie? Wez fixin ta floss da Benz onna tat-tat, cuz. Y'fly dawg?" 
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Posted Mar 25, 2003 by Gnomon [See A60420098 for details of new sign-in system]
Mine's a pint of Newcastle Brown, please, Mikey!
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Posted Mar 25, 2003 by Kaeori
Well, took me a while to go thru all those posts, and I still don't know if I should say "an hotel" or not...
... but that is besides the point, because you all rather naughtily avoided my main question:
"Is there a difference between the Queen's English, BBC English and 'Received Pronunciation'? I am more than a little confused."
I have managed to get hold of the book, 'The King's English', not by Mr Amis, but by H W Fowler and F G Fowler. Although it's a 1970 reprint, I notice now that it is the 3rd edition, published originally in 1930, which explains why the Queen doesn't come into it.
The authors appear to be a bit full of themselves, and they don't give any indication of having consulted with His Majesty about the contents.
They give five general principles at the beginning, most of which are fairly obvious, but the fifth (and least important by their own admission), is to "Prefer the Saxon word to the Romance." They explain in a footnote that Romance refers to languages descended from Latin, but also include some borrowed words from Greek.
Anyway, that is an aside - please don't use it as another excuse to avoid answering my main question. I wouldn't like to have to disappear again still immersed in ignorance!
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Posted Mar 25, 2003 by David, the Singing Librarian Owl
Received pronunciation is an accent very similar, if not identical, to what's known as BBC English. Queen's English is mainly a grammatical concept.
Does that answer the question?
David
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Posted Mar 25, 2003 by Zarquon's Singing Fish!
Didn't give up alcohol for Lent, then Gnomon? 
 
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Posted Mar 25, 2003 by Kaeori
Thank you, David. I guess it partly answers my question. I gather, then, that Queen's English is nothing to do with pronunciation, right?
So why is 'official' pronuciation known as 'received'?
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Posted Mar 25, 2003 by David, the Singing Librarian Owl
It's just one way of pronouncing things. Known as 'received' because it's the one that is 'received' from the supposed centre of England (i.e. upper class London). I guess. It's a silly name, really. There can never really be any 'official' pronunciation of a language. 'Standard' maybe. Very few people will speak with a true r.p. accent in real life, though I'm told it is still taught at RADA. When I did a semi-professional production of The Beggar's Opera, the lady (professional) playing Polly was from Wales, so learnt all her lines in received pronunciation/RADA English/BBC English (all the same). Which would be fine if it wasn't set in the underworld of London...
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Posted Mar 25, 2003 by Mikey Pie
"Prefer the Saxon word to the Romance."
I take that to mean use "a hotel" versus "an 'otel" as missing h's are a latino thang. 
By the way, "Yo G, whatup homie? Wez fixin ta floss da Benz onna tat-tat, cuz. Y'fly dawg?"
Would be, "My good man, how have things been with you? We are planning to parade our new luxury motor carriage around and fire our guns at people, my cousin. Would you care to join us?" in Queen's English. 
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Posted Mar 26, 2003 by Trillian's Child "German Meet Spring 2010 A61150628"
A852798
Spiff's entry on received pronunciation. Anyone seen Spiff? He hasn't been around for a good while.
I was taught that the "an" before an "h" is used when the word is derived from French and is not aspirated in the original French (i.e. the "h" is not pronounced and the word starts to all intenst and purposes as with a vowel.
It is quite a bind learning which words in French are aspirated and which aren't. For example, you will notice that for the market halls in a town (Les Halles), you say "lay al" and not "laze al". This is because the "h" is considered a consonant in this case. (i.e. is aspirated - the word has to do with breathing, like expiration, and describes the breathy sound of the consonant "h".) The problem with the French is that they do not audibly pronounce the "h" whether they are considering it as a vowel or a consonant.
The general rule is that Germanic words
(haine=hate, halo=halo, haricot=bean, haut (adj)= high)
are aspirated whereas anything with a Latin origin is not aspirated. (heure=hour; horreur=horror; horticulteur=horticulturalist; hôpital=hospital)
It is easiest with the definite article. You write and say "la haine", but "l'heure."
So during the transition into English some of this remained - in words like "hour" and "honour" even to the extent of the English pronunciation leaving out the aspiration. Which means that it is easy for us to remember not to say "a hour" or "a honour" but with words like "habit" "harmony" it has either gone out of use or sounds odd.
PS According to the French dictionary I used to find examples for the above, there is a slight glottal stop (most unFrench!) for aspirated words. Hardly detectable to our ears.
I hope our Francophone members will agree with me.
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Posted Mar 26, 2003 by Trillian's Child "German Meet Spring 2010 A61150628"
F19585?thread=182990&post=2005458#p2005458
The topic of the "n" moving from the beginning of the word to the end of the article in front of it has been covered several times in the Brit Eng Thread and in this, its sequel. As has the quest for a rhyme for the word "orange" which is still on.
Please also refer to post 3352 in the British English thread
F19585?thread=46483&post=820001#p820001
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Posted Mar 27, 2003 by ~ jwf ~ the darkest day is done, Yay! here comes the son
>> ..and I still don't know if I should say "an hotel" or not...<<
In USA - a HOE-tell
In UK - a NO-tell
~jwf~
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Posted Mar 27, 2003 by anhaga
In Canada, an HOE-tell
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Posted Mar 27, 2003 by six7s
< >
Just you wait Enry Iggins,
Just you wait!
You'll be sorry,
But your tears'll be too late!
You'll be broke and I'll have money;
Will I help you? Don't be funny!
Just you wait, Enry Iggins,
Just you wait!
< / >
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