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Posted Aug 20, 2003 by tom
Some of the changes made in the editorial process I would acknowledge as an improvement.In other cases,not.
Anyone who would like to compare this edited version with the original can see the original version at
A948099
Regards
Tom
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Posted Aug 24, 2003 by tom
Hello Lou.
First of all, thank you for the work you have done and are perhaps still doing on tbis entry. I appreciate that there are numerous technical operations that need to be carried out in order to prepare an entry for the Edited Guide,quite apart from the preparation of the actual content.
However,to respond to your question.I don't think there was any need to re-write this passage.
"It is not always possible to be absolutely certain about the correct pronunciation of Medieval English words. There were no electronic recording devices in Medieval times. However,some Medieval texts have been familiar to successive generations of readers since they first appeared. Down the ages,they have not only been read,but read aloud,by one person to another. By means of this oral tradition,and by other methods that need not be considered here,it has been possible to make informed judgements about how Medieval English should sound."
The re-written version goes
"It is difficult to be absolutely certain about the correct pronunciation of Medieval English words - there were no electronic recording devices at the time that they were spoken. However, some medieval texts have been familiar to successive generations of readers since they first appeared. Through the ages, they have not only been read but read aloud by one person to the next. By means of this oral tradition, and by other methods that need not be considered here, it has been possible to make informed judgements about how the language should sound."
That seems to me, frankly, clumsier than the original, and there is one important conceptual error that has been introduced.A person reading something aloud to another might not be consciously doing so in order to perpetuate an oral tradition, though that could be the actual effect. The use,in the re-written version,of the term "read aloud by one person to the next" implies some sort of conscious,deliberate process of "tradition-making" is going on, which needn't necessarily be the case.
More to follow.
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Posted Aug 24, 2003 by tom
A futher conceptual difficulty has been introduced by the re-writing of this paragraph.
"There can be more than one correct way of pronouncing a Medieval English word. Words were pronounced differently in different parts of the country,and the pronunciation of words changed over time. Similarly,the spelling of words was subject to a good deal of variety,from place to place,and from time to time."
The re-written version says.
"There can be more than one correct way of pronouncing a Medieval English word. Words were pronounced differently in different parts of the country (like a regional dialect), and the pronunciation of words changed over time. Similarly, the spelling of words was subject to a good deal of variety, from place to place, and from time to time."
Well, firstly, the sentence "Words were pronounced differently in different parts of the country" seems to me pretty straightforward and self-explanatory. I can't see any pressing need for additional comment on it.
More importantly,the additional comment chosen is not consistent with what is written elsewhere in the entry.If you use the term "dialect",that implies that a standard form of the language.The point I make elsewhere is precisely that there was no standard form of the language in Chaucer's time,and that it was the popularity of his writings that helped,eventually,to establish the southern form of Middle English as the standard form.
More to follow.
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Posted Aug 25, 2003 by Lou, (Listy) Not around too much, don't be offended if I don't reply.. I'LL TRY!
Hmm... I see your points 
Unfortunatly it's already been sent off, but I'll request it back and make these changes.
This is not a dig at you tom, but if in future you could bring these up sooner or even just ask me or any sub-ed it would make it a lot easier 
Lou
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Posted Aug 25, 2003 by tom
Yes,I see what you mean.There was a question of prioritisation involved.Having seen the first sub-edited version,I raised the issues that seemed to me most important.These were dealt with,in the second sub-edited version.But there were still some problems with the second sub-edited version.And,as you seemed to have precluded any discussion of the second sub-edited version,it seemed sensible that I should give any readers who did feel troubled by the text the opportunity to seek clarification by accessing the original version.
A point worth making is that there is actually no time pressure involved here as far as I am concerned.Better to get the thing right,even if it involves some delay,in my view.
The popularity of his works helped to establish the southern form as the form of English that most people in mainland Britain spoke,and as the form of English that most people in mainland Britain,who could write (this was a small minority,of course,in the time of Chaucer),wrote in (if they chose to write in English,as Latin or French were still used for many purposes).
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Posted Aug 25, 2003 by tom
To continue with the work in hand.
This paragraph has been re-written.
"The popularity of his works helped to establish the southern form as the form of English that most people in mainland Britain spoke,and as the form of English that most people in mainland Britain,who could write (this was a small minority,of course,in the time of Chaucer),wrote in (if they chose to write in English,as Latin or French were still used for many purposes)."
The re-written version goes as follows.
"The popularity of his works helped to establish the southern form as the language that most 'educated' people in mainland Britain spoke. Similarly, it became the form of English that most people in mainland Britain would write in (if they could write at all - only a very small minority could at the time) if they chose English over French and Latin, which were still used for many purposes."
The re-written version makes an assertion that contradicts the meaning of the original.The original says that most people in mainland Britain came to speak the southern form of Middle English. The re-written version states that educated people in Britain (by implication,only educated people) came to speak the southern form of Middle English.
I don't intend to debate here the question of whether or not educated people,in Medieval England,differed from others in their style of speech,or not.I am simply pointing out that the re-written version says precisely the opposite of what I intended to say.
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Posted Aug 25, 2003 by tom
This paragraph has been re-written
"Perhaps,also,the brief glimpse of the language of 14th century England that has been offered here will serve to reinforce an awareness that is of importance to all of us in our everyday communication. Namely,the awareness that languages,whilst they must have accepted rules and conventions,in order to function as languages,are nevertheless constantly changing and evolving over time."
The re-written form goes.
"Perhaps, also, the brief glimpse of this almost forgotten form of English that has been offered here will serve to reinforce an awareness that is of importance to all of us in our everyday communication. Namely, that language, while it must have accepted rules and conventions, is nevertheless constantly changing and evolving through time."
The two most objectionable features of the re-written version are that,in the second sentence,"languages" (plural) has become "language" (singular) and a clause had been omitted.To talk of "language" in general introduces,in my view, an unhelpful level of abstraction.The clause that has been omitted,namely "in order to function as languages" is there for a purpose.It answers an implied question.
Q.Why must languages have rules and conventions?
A.They must do,in order to function as languages.
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Posted Aug 25, 2003 by tom
And,as far as I can see, that's it.Phew!
Once again Lou,although we have had to concentrate on some problem areas here,I thank you for all the hard work you have done on this entry and the positive improvements you have made in such areas as the overall lay-out and presentation of the text.
Regards Tom
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Posted Aug 26, 2003 by Lou, (Listy) Not around too much, don't be offended if I don't reply.. I'LL TRY!
Thanks Tom!
I'm not going to be able to get the entry back, so another sub with deal with it via the feedback forum i'll get them to message you so that any other problems that could arise can be dealt with 
Not bad for my first subbed entry...
Lou
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Posted Aug 26, 2003 by The h2g2 Editors
Hi Tom,
As this has now hit the Front Page, the Sub will not be able to make changes. However, if you could list your *specific* requests here - Feedback-Editorial - one of us will be able to address them.
Preferred format is: The line '....' should read '...'. If you could summarise your requests in this way, we'll hopefully be able to sort this out for you.
Regards,
The Eds.
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Posted Aug 26, 2003 by  B'Elana [©] ACE- Minister of Abbr.- Happy New Year, friends
Hi Tom, have read your entry and this conversation and I can see your point. I like this entry and will go and read your others as well, it's as if I'm back to university, only that that's so long ago
Bel
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Posted Aug 26, 2003 by tom
Thanks very much.I'm sorry for complicating matters.Here are my suggested corrections to the text.
Correction 1)
Present version:
"It is difficult to be absolutely certain about the correct pronunciation of Medieval English words - there were no electronic recording devices at the time that they were spoken."
Sentence should read:
"It is not always possible to be absolutely certain about the correct pronunciation of Medieval English words. There were no electronic recording devices in Medieval times."
Correction 2)
Present version:
"Through the ages, they have not only been read but read aloud by one person to the next."
Sentence should read:
"Down the ages,they have not only been read,but read aloud,by one person to another."
Correction 3)
Present version
"Words were pronounced differently in different parts of the country (like a regional dialect), and the pronunciation of words changed over time."
Should read:
"Words were pronounced differently in different parts of the country,and the pronunciation of words changed over time."
More corrections to follow.
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Posted Aug 26, 2003 by tom
Correction 4
Present version:
"The popularity of his works helped to establish the southern form as the language that most 'educated' people in mainland Britain spoke. Similarly, it became the form of English that most people in mainland Britain would write in (if they could write at all - only a very small minority could at the time) if they chose English over French and Latin, which were still used for many purposes."
Paragraph should read:
"The popularity of his works helped to establish the southern form as the form of English that most people in mainland Britain spoke,and as the form of English that most people in mainland Britain,who could write (this was a small minority,of course,in the time of Chaucer),wrote in (if they chose to write in English,as Latin or French were still used for many purposes)."
Correction 5)
Present version
"Perhaps, also, the brief glimpse of this almost forgotten form of English that has been offered here will serve to reinforce an awareness that is of importance to all of us in our everyday communication. Namely, that language, while it must have accepted rules and conventions, is nevertheless constantly changing and evolving through time."
Paragraph should read:
"Perhaps,also,the brief glimpse of the language of 14th century England that has been offered here will serve to reinforce an awareness that is of importance to all of us in our everyday communication. Namely,the awareness that languages,whilst they must have accepted rules and conventions,in order to function as languages,are nevertheless constantly changing and evolving over time."
End of corrections.
Thankyou.
Tom
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Posted Aug 26, 2003 by tom
Errr...I thought I had sent those last two messages to the "Editorial Feedabck" forum,rather than this one.
Subsequently,have managed to find "Editorial Feedback" and posted the list of corrections there.
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Posted Jan 9, 2006 by Janelegolas
I like it.
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