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Discussion:

Parents make all the difference in Schools

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Message 1 - posted by Sam the Man, Apr 7, 2007

Labour, Bliar and the postman are going to change the rules on entry to schools. Dont they realise by letting feckless kids into good schools they will ALL be dumbed down

Its not teachers that are key to a good school its demanding parents. If you left the average state school alone nothing would happen, as they get paid whether they deliver anything or not

Schools have become the preserve of happy holiday middle class women as teachers, with their permanent hols, relief teachers that are crap, bonus payments for all and indefinite maternity leave

Another case of a state service turned on its head and benefitting the employees at the expense of those taxpayers that pay for it
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Message 2 - posted by U6532874, Apr 7, 2007

When rich parents send feckless kids to independent schools they are welcomed with open arms and because it is an essential element in building rounded characters.Has any one ever met a public school boy or girl who is not to some degree or other feckless?
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Message 3 - posted by minnie3, Apr 7, 2007

I think teachers do make a difference. They are under a lot of pressure to deliver. Most of them work very hard and do a lot of work out of school hours preparing lessons etc and planning. Often they have other issues to deal with other than teaching (e.g. upset pupil etc)

I have alot of respect for most teachers. I agree if they let feckless kids into good schools they will dumb it down more and spoil it for the others.

New Labour cannot bear anyone trying to get their kids into good schools if they are middle class,working class and cannot afford private schools. Even though they are paying alot of tax and working hard.

It always has to be the 'perceived' disadvantaged getting the advantage at everyone elses expense.

I know the school my elder two go to is going to become like this eventually. Also why shouldn't sibblings be allowed in. its daft having kids going to different schools all over the place.
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Message 4 - posted by Sam the Man, Apr 8, 2007

Labour have failed miserably with sink schools

The schools that were rubbish 10yrs ago are broadly rubbish now. They dont have a clue how to improve them

Rubbish teachers with non interested parents is a death sentance for a school. The innate kid is no different but in a labour sink school they are doomed.

The answer is quite easy, pay the teachers in sink schools more and the better ones will go there. Make half their salary conditional on results rather than the stupid bonus scheme that was given to all because it was too difficult to pick out the good teachers. I dont know why, the two or three good teachers was known by all the parents and pupils but for some strange reason not by the teaching staff.
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Message 5 - posted by minnie3, Apr 8, 2007

the trouble is the good teachers don't always want to work in these sort of schools. Who can blame them.

I think the lack of discipline in schools has a lot to answer for over the last 20 years'.

also it is not easy to discipline pupils whose parents are above the law and will always side with their child even if they are bang out of order. Who wants to deal with being abused constantly
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Message 6 - posted by Sam the Man, Apr 8, 2007

I could make it economically attractive that they would want to work there. I would run down the T and C's and gold plated pensions for the middle classes idling in the good schools.
This is a state service and us taxpayers are fed up with the sham and people coasting.
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Message 7 - posted by minnie3, Apr 8, 2007

Sam what are T and C's? I promise you as an insider the teachers work really hard and are under constant pressure. I am not a teacher myself.

i don't think pensions are any better in a 'middle class' school
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Message 8 - posted by Sam the Man, Apr 8, 2007

Terms and Conditions
What is happening is all the teachers are gravitating to the middle class schools for an easy life

The better ones need to be moved to the sink schools to help turn this country round. Since they all have the same T and C's and pensions none will go but the rubbish to sink schools.

So you improve pay and conditions in the sink schools and erode them in the doddle schools

The way Labour approach it nothing will change for decades. what I have described happens every day in the private sector. Im fed up subbing happy hol teachers.
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Message 9 - posted by minnie3, Apr 8, 2007

You could argue that at least the teachers are working. I get more irked about subbing people who should be working but won't.

But as I said why would you want to work in a place where there is no respect for authority or discipline if you can work in a nice school and get good results and pleasant students.

I take your point about paying more but not reducing the teachers' pay in good schools. why punish them for the way society is becomming.
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Message 10 - posted by Sam the Man, Apr 8, 2007

I dont really care what the happy hobby teachers want. This is like putting the cart before the horse.

I want some sort of delivery for my taxes (you might as well?) I want a good and coherent education system, not what we have now.

Otherwise return my taxes and I will buy it, because it is out there and if its rubbish no one pays for it and thankfully it disappears, unlike sink state schools on Labour's watch
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Message 11 - posted by minnie3, Apr 8, 2007

What was your school like Sam?
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Message 12 - posted by Sam the Man, Apr 8, 2007

THe schools I went to were not good but that was because it was full of post war teachers who were there on 'buggins turn' rather than ability

My kids schools were regarded as good but the only one that passed muster was the private one my daughter went to. They were completely interesed in the kids education and future. Any sub standard teacher quickly disappeared

Whereas in the state useless teachers are humoured, unless the Governors ae strong.
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Message 13 - posted by Sam the Man, Apr 9, 2007

More evidence today
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Message 14 - posted by minnie3, Apr 9, 2007

Go on Sam. I'm all ears
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Message 15 - posted by Slimtone, Apr 9, 2007

Sam the Man/
Every body knows all about politics, sport and education; all the problems and all the answers. Some of what you say Sam, is fair enough. But there are too many generalizations
One thing I would like to say is that whereas many parents contribute usefully to their childrens' school, many are a considerable problem, indeed, liability. Parent power is fine, if accompanied by knowledge and insight and some sensitivity. Teachers are too often held up to ridicule, becoming virtual aunt sallies. It is now a more difficult job than it's ever been (the figures for mental break-downs are only surpassed by social workers.) If we want our teachers to perform to the best of their ability, we need to support and encourage them, not abuse and belittle them. If it comes to judging by results, at least the League Tables go some way towards this. What about your line of work? Are you subject to assessment to see if you are performing? Teachers are regularly assessed by their Head, by Ofsted, and also have their results publishedregularly. Inefficient teachers are weeded out. What other trade or profession does more>
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Message 16 - posted by Sam the Man, Apr 9, 2007

Ever since I statrted work I have been assessed

Its de rigeur in the private sector

For many years my pay has been performance related. Its de rigeur in the private sector

Its only the state sector that lives in a fairy world of poor service delivery and written delusion.
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Message 17 - posted by Slimtone, Apr 9, 2007

Sorry, Sam, but it's not fair to categorize everyone like that. I have worked in both public and private sector education and I have to say that in my experience there is little to choose between teacher standards. it is a myth that the private sector is superior; they get better results because they have better-motivated children with keen parents, eager to get results for their money.
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Message 18 - posted by U6532874, Apr 9, 2007

Which independent schools are operating with council school quality teachers? The paying parents probably need to be told.
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Message 19 - posted by Slimtone, Apr 9, 2007

Let me ask you; which aren't? You are as much taken in as everybody else. Even the most average teacher will get good results with good material to work with, and it is patently silly to suggest that all State school teaching is poor. The State school teachers often have to work with the most difficult of children and frequently do a superb job. Believe me not many special needs children are found in the likes of Eton, or not even in many run-of-the-mill independent schools.
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Message 20 - posted by beckbell, Apr 10, 2007

I totally agree, it's silly to suggest that state school teaching is poor. I went to a state school and did very well because I wanted to do well and was encouraged to do well by my parents. The teachers at my school were fantastic, despite the fact that the majority of the kids they had to teach were troublesome idiots who were dragged up rather than brought up. Teachers can only impart knowledge and inspire kids if kids are willing to learn. Parents need to teach their kids respect and good behaviour before teachers can even start to do their bit.
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