| |
|
|---|
Message 1301 - posted by c_jenkin, Feb 13, 2006 My opinion is that the distinguished authors of the history books that I have read, who all include Cornwall (together with Devon and West Somerset) in the Kingdom of Dumnonia, are perfectly justified in doing so. If you have any (real) evidence that it was not, then let’s hear it.
Quoted from
this message
Bob I don't know what the point is that you are making here. Dumnonia was a tribal territory that existed in the south west of Britain during the roman period. Its civitates was located at Isca Dumnorium (modern Exeter). Cornwall was also a territory during this period largely untouched by Roman civilisation. It is unknown what the relationship is between Dumnonia and Cornwall, evidence is very slight but it seems likely that Cornwall was a sub-kingdom of Dumnonia at this period. When the Roman legions left Britain in 410 AD tribal territories began to be organised into what we might term as Kingdoms. The Kingdom of Dumnonia is evidenced from the 500s upto the 8th century. From that point it disappears under pressure from the advance of Wessex in the East. The common historical interpretation is that Dumnonia ceases as a Kingdom when its capital Exeter comes under Wessex influence. With the demise of Dumnonia, a rump the Kingdom of Cornwall emerges. During this period the territory between Tamar and Exeter becomes a competed for area like the Welsh marches. In the 870s West Devon was certainly frontier land for the kingdom of Wessex. By that point Dumnonia had been dead for nearly 150 years. So what point exactly are you making by referring to it? | 
|
|
|
Message 1302 - posted by Fulup le Breton, Feb 13, 2006 Celtic sports, traditions and cultural activities: In Devon there are: Devon wrestling, Out Hurling, Crying the Neck, Flaming Tar Barrel pageant, Obby Oss pageant (Combe Martin), Devon Step dancing.
Quoted from
this message
Bob if correct the information you and your team have collected and reproduced here on mass seems to portray a southwest peninsula with a high degree of celticity. This Celtic side of the southwest has long been a hot topic in Cornwall and a recurrent theme, so you might say some common ground can be seen here. Your posts seem to describe a peninsula with much left of the Celtic Britons; a peninsula in which one can easily imagine a Celtic ethnicity surviving, an ethnic identity with its roots in the Britons that has remained conscious of not being Anglo Saxon and then later English. If this ethnicity exists why not Cornwall the most Celtic part of the southwest; Cornwall most isolated from the changes the Germanic arrivals made. That a concentration of ‘celticity’ for want of a better word exists in the SW of Britain is a fact. Highest concentrations exist in the Duchy but to a degree in SW England as well. This celticity and otherness is demonstrated in a range of cultural, sociological, psychological and linguistic phenomena; mostly in Cornwall but perhaps to a degree in Devonshire and upwards as well. However what surprises me is that supposedly dedicated historians, who wish to show the Celtic side of the whole southwest, are so hostile to one of the phenomena found in the southwest, a Celtic ethnic identity that seems to go hand in glove with the other Celtic cultural phenomena described. Surely Cornish ethnicity and the claim of Cornish national identity is worthy of study not derision by anyone truly interested in the Celtic southwest? An ethnicity in its own land with which it shares a name proclaiming nationhood; it wouldn't be the first time that such a call was accepted Bob. | |
|
|
|
Message 1303 - posted by Ozzie Exile, Feb 14, 2006 Fulup,
This sounds a set of reasonable statements which seem to accommodate a range of views.
I for one would not disagree with Cornwall becoming a formal seperate nation and even leaving the UK if that is what the Cornish choose.
I think the jury is out on that issue, because whilst this is a view held by some there is no evidence that I have seen that shows that it is a view of the majority.
Nevertheless that is an issue for the Cornish to decide, and if they do we should respect their decision.
As to Devon I can confirm that Devonians do indeed call those from the east as 'furreners'.
I don't believe Devonians have any desires for seperate nationhood, but a number of us do identify less with England and more with Britain.
In my experience this is different from those in Yorkshire or Lancashire, where they clearly see themselves as English and simply regret that the south (as they see it, but its really the south-east) seem sto have all the wealth and power.
On the subject of celtic saints Devon is indeed well endowed with dedications. C_Jenkin suggested that Wessex would not have concerned itself with this when they came to control Devon because they were Christian as well. This overlooks the fact that a significant area of dispute existed between the (Celtic) British church and that of the Saxons (which followed Roman tradition). The customs and practices were different, with different dates for Easter etc... etc...
As this was such a critical issue of the time it seesm unlikely that the high level of dedications to Celtic saints would have survived had there not been surviving congregations of British Celts.
This survival may have been linked to the survival of Celtic speech in Devon, but I don't believe we know for sure. | |
|
|
|
Message 1304 - posted by c_jenkin, Feb 14, 2006 On the subject of celtic saints Devon is indeed well endowed with dedications. C_Jenkin suggested that Wessex would not have concerned itself with this when they came to control Devon because they were Christian as well. This overlooks the fact that a significant area of dispute existed between the (Celtic) British church and that of the Saxons (which followed Roman tradition). The customs and practices were different, with different dates for Easter etc... etc...
As this was such a critical issue of the time it seesm unlikely that the high level of dedications to Celtic saints would have survived had there not been surviving congregations of British Celts.
This survival may have been linked to the survival of Celtic speech in Devon, but I don't believe we know for sure.
Quoted from
this message
Interesting argument ozzie, my point was that there is no evidence of continuation of the celtic tradition at these sites. Even in Glastonbury Patrick was celebrated in the middle ages so there is lots of evidence of Christian sites coming under the political control of Wessex and the religious control of Canterbury. Indeed it is fair to say that it is difficult to say when the switch from Celtic monasticism to recognising the superiority of Canterbury took place in Cornwall. It could have been early at Aldhelms time before the synod of Whitby. It could have been with Bishop Kenstec or it could have been later with Bishop Conan. Certainly by the mid 900s Canterbury seems to be exercising its influence because of the number of English priests in Bodmin. In the case of Devon it seems likely that the celtic tradition must have been ended by the late 9th century. It may well be that it persisted for some time whilst Devon was not firmly under Wessex control but it was very common for the Anglo-saxon church in the south west to advance in front of the political control. I think you last point is a big logical jump - in history continuity is the normal circumstance unless there is substantial political pressure for change. Church dedications would be respected whatever happened to cultural and religious practices. A lot of dedications are also pan-celtic so they are not just found in the south west and would be supported by the Pope e.g. the saint comes from more than one location. I would be interested to know if there are any devonian saints which are exclusive to Devon and could be termed as 'celtic'? | |
|
|
|
Message 1305 - posted by Plymouth Exile, Feb 14, 2006 ”Therefore to assume that the same option should be put to the people east of the Tamar, and then to say that this is a fair choice, is the height of hypocrisy. Do you not think that the same massive disadvantages would apply to them also?”
Not assuming - you have to make the argument on behalf of Devon.
Quoted from
this message
Conan, This is precisely what Devonians did in the two Devon petitions, but they did not include suggestions for what the Cornish should do, which is the very point I am making. I am sorry if I have not made this clear. British sense of fair play - I think you will find that many people think that myth disappeared long ago. You'll be saying the Empire was a good thing next.
Quoted from
this message
That is not fair. Cornish people were also involved in the British Empire. Anyway, that is in the past, and I am talking about now. The evidence of Cornish being spoken in Devon is extremely limited and inconclusive but it is not inceivable that Cornish speakers from Cornwall moved to Devon during the middle ages.
Quoted from
this message
So are you suggesting that a load of Cornish speaking Cornishmen and their families spread themselves around Devon in the 13th century, renamed some Devon places, using names that were unmistakably Middle Cornish in their syntax, got themselves involved in court cases, either as criminals or victims (Crown Pleas of the Devon Eyre 1238), and remained long enough for chroniclers to record that Cornish was still being spoken in South and West Devon, only to then disappear again as mysteriously as they had arrived in the first place. This extremely unlikely scenario is what would be required, if one is not to take the evidence at face value, ie. that Brythonic speech (probably Cornish) survived in parts of Devon until the 14th century. Even close to the border the parishes are registering over 70% Cornish names, what is interesting is that there are so few Cornish names on the other side of the Tamar.
Quoted from
this message
In that case, can you explain how, out of 630 or so Cornish place-names in Padel’s book, he only found 43% to be definitely Cornish in derivation throughout Cornwall? Placenames and language survival have quite different histories in Cornwall and Devon and are recognisably different. By arguing they are the same you are not making people take you seriously about the very real celtic heritage that can be found throughout the British Isles and Europe.
Quoted from
this message
No matter how I look at the evidence, what I see is not a clear border at the Tamar, but an east-west gradient in language survival and celticity of place-names. What do you think about Morris dancing?
Quoted from
this message
It can be entertaining, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with Anglo-Saxon cultural heritage, as there is no evidence that it appeared in Britain before the 15th century (according to Professor Alun Howkins, professor of Social History at Sussex University). The biggest difference though is the linguistic tradition which in Devon was completely english from before the conquest upto today - slightly different in Cornwall!
Quoted from
this message
Where is your evidence for this? A number of historians, such as Michael Wood, disagree with you on this, and the evidence, which I have presented previously, tends to add weight to what Wood and others say. As English overtook Cornish amongst the Gentry the Kevrann in the East adopted the use of shire so wivelshire, Triggshire, then later pydershire and powdershire. Kerrier and Penwith never had shire added to them.
Quoted from
this message
So you are saying that names such as Triggshire are rather late ones then. That’s very strange, because Alfred the Great mentions Triggshire in his will, as being one of his private estates, and Asser wrote that Alfred often went riding and hunting in his Triggshire estate. Now seeing that Alfred died in 899AD, this does not correlate with what you have said. ”If marginal changes in culture are seen as adequate justification for claiming different ‘nations’, then it would be very easy to see a case for a multitude of different ‘nations’ within the UK.”
it needs to be more than marginal, cultural heritage and territory is essential for understanding the concept of a nation.
Quoted from
this message
Almost all counties have “cultural heritage and territory”. ”The obvious case to start with is Northern Ireland, where there would be a clear case for Catholic and Protestant ‘nations’.”
no these are different religious identities
Quoted from
this message
So is religion not a part of cultural heritage in Northern Ireland? Try telling them that in Northern Ireland. ”In Scotland we could see perhaps six (at least) different ‘nations’, with differentiation being made between those of Gaelic, indigenous British, Pictish, Angle, Danish and Norwegian heritage.”
you have a point here - there could be an argument for a gaelic nation v. a scottish nation. The others are roots not present nationality e.g. where are the Danish lands of Scotland?
Quoted from
this message
The Scots, from whom we get the name ‘Scottish’, were named after an Irish Gaelic tribe, referred to by the Romans as the “Scotti”. Thus the Gaels and the Scots were the same people, so they would hardly be different nations by your definition. A number of the place-names of South East Scotland show unmistakeable signs of Danish Viking derivation, so we cannot leave this cultural ‘nation’ out, can we? ”Even in Wales it is well known that some of the people of North Wales do not see themselves as being the same as the people of South Wales, and then there are the different language areas, so a case for perhaps four ‘nations’ could easily be made.”
this is to do with linguistic identity not nationality. We are all part of multiple identities.
Quoted from
this message
So now you are saying that “linguistic identity” has nothing to do with “nationality”. If I am not mistaken, it was the difference in “linguistic identity” that you were claiming represented the “enormous” national gulf between the Cornish and the Devonians. How strange then that this should not be the case in Wales also. You could almost be right here if they did not identify their nationality as English.
Quoted from
this message
All of the Yorkshire folk and Lancastrians that I know give their nationalities as ‘British’, but they wouldn’t thank you if you said that they had the same cultural identities as each other. ”Then there are all those Germanic descendents, Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Danes, Franks, Frisians, etc., so surely the eastern sector of England should be divided up into a number of ‘nations’ with different cultural heritage identities.”
these are roots not nationalities.
Quoted from
this message
Are you saying that they don’t have different ancestral and cultural identities (which according to you define ‘nationality’)? ”Firstly a Brythonic tongue has not “continually been used in Cornwall right up to the present day”.
There has always been someone using Cornish - that usage may well have been extremely limited and largely confined to scholar and antiquarian activities in the 19th century. But there is a continuous thread to the present day.
Quoted from
this message
There has always been someone using Latin in Britain up to the present day, but that hardly qualifies it as being a ‘living’ language. If it comes to that, there have almost certainly been Devonian (and other) academics who have continuously ‘used’ Cornish up to the present day, so by your definition, the Cornish language never died out in Devon (or other places) either. ”In East Cornwall it had expired long before this, perhaps as early as the 11th or 12th centuries in the northeast.”
I wouldn't trust your analysis here. After the Black death in the mid 14th century in Boscastle there was a request for Cornish speaking priests to minister to the community because they had all died. Boscastle is in the north east and only about ten miles from the border.
Quoted from
this message
Northeast of the River Ottery, where the place-names are even less Brythonic in origin than the names in North West Devon, Padel estimates that Cornish must have died out by about the time of the Norman Conquest. This was the region of North East Cornwall I was referring to. ”Secondly, there is much evidence, even backed up by at least one Cornish language specialist, a Bard of the Cornish Gorseth and other Cornish people that the Brythonic tongue did not become extinct in Devon until about the 14th century, and there are people in Devon today with a good knowledge of at least one of the revived versions of Cornish.”
No, Not much evidence at all of Cornish in Devon.
Quoted from
this message
See above. ”Thirdly, there are areas in England close to the Welsh border, where Welsh was definitely spoken into the 18th century, and (according to some sources) may have survived as a daily language longer than Cornish did in West Cornwall even.”
This is the nature of border land which isn't clearly defined when you have a big river like the Tamar this doesn't actually happen!
Quoted from
this message
Not clearly defined, eh? I was under the impression that much of the Welsh/English border was “clearly defined” by Offa’s Dyke. As for the Tamar being a “big river”, have you actually seen it in its upper reaches? It is hardly more than a stream, and it certainly didn’t keep Alfred the Great out when he fancied going for a ride in his Triggshire Estate. Even in the lower reaches, they had boats. In fact Maker Parish was part of Devon at that time, and a number of the place-names in what was to become Plymouth have clear Brythonic origins. | |
|
|
|
Message 1306 - posted by Plymouth Exile, Feb 14, 2006 Plymouth Exile, I do not think you are comparing like with like. The on-line petition was set up as a response to the ODPM 'consultation' on their regions. By this time, people had signed the 50,000 petition and you must remember that then (as to a lesser extent now) people did not have access to the internet.
Quoted from
this message
sandPerran, For a start, only 50,000 out of an electorate of 385,490 signed the street petition, i.e. about 13%, so there was still a rather large untapped reservoir of potential signatures. Also, the on-line Cornish petition was (and still is) open for signatures at the same time as the two Devon petitions, so unless you are suggesting that percentage internet access in Devon is much greater than in Cornwall (which I cannot seriously believe), then I am indeed comparing like with like. | |
|
|
|
Message 1307 - posted by Plymouth Exile, Feb 14, 2006 Bob I don't know what the point is that you are making here. Dumnonia was a tribal territory that existed in the south west of Britain during the roman period. Its civitates was located at Isca Dumnorium (modern Exeter). Cornwall was also a territory during this period largely untouched by Roman civilisation. It is unknown what the relationship is between Dumnonia and Cornwall, evidence is very slight but it seems likely that Cornwall was a sub-kingdom of Dumnonia at this period. When the Roman legions left Britain in 410 AD tribal territories began to be organised into what we might term as Kingdoms.
Quoted from
this message
Conan, According to all reputable academic sources, and historical Roman documents, Cornwall was (like Devon and West Somerset) an integral part of the Kingdom of Dumnonia at the time when the Romans landed in Britain. There is some (uncorroborated) evidence that for a short period (443 to 510) Cornwall formed a sub-kingdom of Dumnonia, but for the rest of the time it was fully integrated into Dumnonia. During this period the territory between Tamar and Exeter becomes a competed for area like the Welsh marches. In the 870s West Devon was certainly frontier land for the kingdom of Wessex. By that point Dumnonia had been dead for nearly 150 years.
Quoted from
this message
There is no evidence that there were any skirmishes between Saxons and Britons in West Devon in the 870s. In fact it is recorded that Alfred the Great held estates in Cornwall during this period, i.e. Triggshire. This did not mean that either Devon or Cornwall were parts of core Wessex, but were conquered territories under the control of Wessex, and contrary to popular belief among many Cornish Nationalists, there is absolutely no evidence that Athelstan created a boundary between Cornwall and Wessex (or England) at the Tamar. So what point exactly are you making by referring to it?
Quoted from
this message
I was merely replying to Fulup’s questioning of whether Cornwall was a part of Dumnonia. | |
|
|
|
Message 1308 - posted by Plymouth Exile, Feb 14, 2006 ”Celtic sports, traditions and cultural activities: In Devon there are: Devon wrestling, Out Hurling, Crying the Neck, Flaming Tar Barrel pageant, Obby Oss pageant (Combe Martin), Devon Step dancing.”
Bob if correct the information you and your team have collected and reproduced here on mass seems to portray a southwest peninsula with a high degree of celticity.
This Celtic side of the southwest has long been a hot topic in Cornwall and a recurrent theme, so you might say some common ground can be seen here.
Your posts seem to describe a peninsula with much left of the Celtic Britons; a peninsula in which one can easily imagine a Celtic ethnicity surviving, an ethnic identity with its roots in the Britons that has remained conscious of not being Anglo Saxon and then later English.
If this ethnicity exists why not Cornwall the most Celtic part of the southwest; Cornwall most isolated from the changes the Germanic arrivals made.
That a concentration of ‘celticity’ for want of a better word exists in the SW of Britain is a fact. Highest concentrations exist in the Duchy but to a degree in SW England as well. This celticity and otherness is demonstrated in a range of cultural, sociological, psychological and linguistic phenomena; mostly in Cornwall but perhaps to a degree in Devonshire and upwards as well.
However what surprises me is that supposedly dedicated historians, who wish to show the Celtic side of the whole southwest, are so hostile to one of the phenomena found in the southwest, a Celtic ethnic identity that seems to go hand in glove with the other Celtic cultural phenomena described. Surely Cornish ethnicity and the claim of Cornish national identity is worthy of study not derision by anyone truly interested in the Celtic southwest?
An ethnicity in its own land with which it shares a name proclaiming nationhood; it wouldn't be the first time that such a call was accepted Bob.
Quoted from
this message
Fulup, Claims of Celtic heritage in the South West are not part of some new phenomenon. Even during the Victorian period of promoting all things Anglo-Saxon, there were those such as Thomas Huxley who recognised the existence of a strong native British (Celtic) element in much of Western England. Even the arch Anglo-Saxonist (and racist) Edward Freeman admitted that “in regions like Devon and Cumbria, there can never have been large numbers of Germanic Anglo-Saxon settlers in comparison to the native Britons” (E.A. Freeman, “Four Oxford Lectures”, 1887). The Rev. Sabine Baring-Gould was a well-known collector and recorder of Devon folklore and customs, and he recognised the very close similarity between the folklore and customs of Devon and Cornwall and how this was attributable to a largely common Celtic heritage. Those of us who some Cornish Nationalists have referred to as “The Celtic Devon faction” have been dispassionately gathering together references and documentation on Devon’s early history and cultural survivals (I have personally been doing this since the 1960s). Having found sufficient evidence to confirm the beliefs of Huxley, Baring-Gould and many others that (as you put it) a “high degree of Celticity” both existed and to a large extent survived in Devon (and the South West in general), a few of us decided that it would be useful to compile a web site on the topic, having been drawn together by a BBC Devon article from a non-BBC contributor. It was at this point that we discovered that a number of prominent Cornish Nationalists had for some time been putting out grossly distorted historical accounts about Devon, and when we protested about this, we were verbally attacked and accused of “attempting to deconstruct Cornish history” (incidentally I had come across similar unprovoked hostility in the 1960s). We have no hostility towards the Cornish people or their true history, but we will not be bullied into withdrawing verifiable evidence, which happens to not fit in with, what appears (to us), to be the biased and over simplistic picture that some Cornish Nationalists would prefer everyone to believe. We probably do not conform to your view of what ‘Celticists’ should be like. For instance, although we have a great interest in the indigenous British (Celtic) part of our heritage, we feel no compelling need to declare ourselves as being a separate ‘nation’. In fact many of us see even the distinctions between England, Wales and Scotland as being somewhat artificial, and believe that we are all British, but with a variety of ancestral and cultural backgrounds/identities, which do not necessarily conform to such boundaries. I am glad that you are now beginning to see what we have been trying to achieve, by bringing a greater awareness of our true heritage to the people of Devon, and that we have no animosity towards our Cornish friends. However, as long as some Cornish Nationalists continue to put their own slant on Devon history, the Duchy and the Stannaries (both of which are intimately bound up in the history of Devon), I feel that there will regrettably remain irreconcilable disagreements between us. | |
|
|
|
Message 1309 - posted by c_jenkin, Feb 14, 2006 The evidence of Cornish being spoken in Devon is extremely limited and inconclusive but it is not inceivable that Cornish speakers from Cornwall moved to Devon during the middle ages.
So are you suggesting that a load of Cornish speaking Cornishmen and their families spread themselves around Devon in the 13th century, renamed some Devon places, using names that were unmistakably Middle Cornish in their syntax, got themselves involved in court cases, either as criminals or victims (Crown Pleas of the Devon Eyre 1238), and remained long enough for chroniclers to record that Cornish was still being spoken in South and West Devon, only to then disappear again as mysteriously as they had arrived in the first place. This extremely unlikely scenario is what would be required, if one is not to take the evidence at face value, ie. that Brythonic speech (probably Cornish) survived in parts of Devon until the 14th century.
Quoted from
this message
What I want to see is some real historical evidence to back up your theory. We do know that many Cornish tinners worked the streams on Dartmoor in the Middle Ages so it is not inconceivable that Cornish could be found across the Tamar. Even close to the border the parishes are registering over 70% Cornish names, what is interesting is that there are so few Cornish names on the other side of the Tamar.
Quoted from
this message
In that case, can you explain how, out of 630 or so Cornish place-names in Padel’s book, he only found 43% to be definitely Cornish in derivation throughout Cornwall? Oliver's sample of 630 is actually very small it was also selected in terms of size of modern settlement and what are named on largescale OS maps- many of these grew during the industrial period and some even only date to recent times. The percentage amongst older and smaller settlements is much, much higher. Placenames and language survival have quite different histories in Cornwall and Devon and are recognisably different. By arguing they are the same you are not making people take you seriously about the very real celtic heritage that can be found throughout the British Isles and Europe.
No matter how I look at the evidence, what I see is not a clear border at the Tamar, but an east-west gradient in language survival and celticity of place-names.
Quoted from
this message
You must be the only one who sees this, perhaps you should look at the evidence more closely. Even a cursory look at a modern map distinguishes this. The biggest difference though is the linguistic tradition which in Devon was completely english from before the conquest upto today - slightly different in Cornwall!
Quoted from
this message
Where is your evidence for this? Widespread use of middle cornish placenames - are there any in Devon? A substantial middle Cornish literature dating from middle ages upto the modern history period. - Is there any from Devon? Numerous historical references to the use of Cornish right upto the 20th century. Is there any from Devon? A number of historians, such as Michael Wood, disagree with you on this, and the evidence, which I have presented previously, tends to add weight to what Wood and others say.
Quoted from
this message
Properly reference your primary evidence for us .... Show me what Michael Wood said ... not your interpretation of it. As English overtook Cornish amongst the Gentry the Kevrann in the East adopted the use of shire so wivelshire, Triggshire, then later pydershire and powdershire. Kerrier and Penwith never had shire added to them.
Quoted from
this message
So you are saying that names such as Triggshire are rather late ones then. That’s very strange, because Alfred the Great mentions Triggshire in his will, as being one of his private estates, and Asser wrote that Alfred often went riding and hunting in his Triggshire estate. Now seeing that Alfred died in 899AD, this does not correlate with what you have said.
Quoted from
this message
No it doesn't contradict what I said which was that English speakers like Alfred would have used the term scir for this type of area. Just because it appears in Alfred's will doesn't mean that it was the normal term used by the inhabitants of Trigg. Can you provide primary evidence of Asser writing about Trigg? | |
|
|
|
Message 1310 - posted by c_jenkin, Feb 14, 2006
Almost all counties have “cultural heritage and territory”.
Quoted from
this message
You are right these are marginal - Cornwall's isn't marginal. So is religion not a part of cultural heritage in Northern Ireland? Try telling them that in Northern Ireland.
Quoted from
this message
it can contribute to a cultural heritage belonging to a nation but it will not be a defining characteristic. The Scots, from whom we get the name ‘Scottish’, were named after an Irish Gaelic tribe, referred to by the Romans as the “Scotti”. Thus the Gaels and the Scots were the same people, so they would hardly be different nations by your definition.
Quoted from
this message
I was making the distinction between lowland and highland scots (gaels) where there is substantial cultural differences. Personally I would argue that they are still one nation but I was suggesting that this was the one occasion where you and ceratinly some modern scots do argue that they could be construed as separate nations.
A number of the place-names of South East Scotland show unmistakeable signs of Danish Viking derivation, so we cannot leave this cultural ‘nation’ out, can we?
Quoted from
this message
this is roots it has nothing to do with nationality - I am sure there is noone in that area that doesn't think of themselves as Scots but as Viking. So now you are saying that “linguistic identity” has nothing to do with “nationality”. If I am not mistaken, it was the difference in “linguistic identity” that you were claiming represented the “enormous” national gulf between the Cornish and the Devonians. How strange then that this should not be the case in Wales also.
Quoted from
this message
No, they speak different dialects of Welsh it is still the same language and they share more than divides them - it is the common identity which defines them as a nation. Are you saying that they don’t have different ancestral and cultural identities (which according to you define ‘nationality’)?
Quoted from
this message
see above. There has always been someone using Latin in Britain up to the present day, but that hardly qualifies it as being a ‘living’ language. If it comes to that, there have almost certainly been Devonian (and other) academics who have continuously ‘used’ Cornish up to the present day, so by your definition, the Cornish language never died out in Devon (or other places) either.
Quoted from
this message
did i say that Cornish had always been a living community language no - I'm not stupid, unlike some. Get real, Cornish has not been continually used in Devon by anyone. Northeast of the River Ottery, where the place-names are even less Brythonic in origin than the names in North West Devon, Padel estimates that Cornish must have died out by about the time of the Norman Conquest. This was the region of North East Cornwall I was referring to.
Quoted from
this message
Ah, some backtracking from you here, the placename area that you refer to is right against the Tamar is very small and is very unrepresentative for the rest of Cornwall. | |
|
|
|
Message 1311 - posted by c_jenkin, Feb 14, 2006
Not clearly defined, eh? I was under the impression that much of the Welsh/English border was “clearly defined” by Offa’s Dyke. As for the Tamar being a “big river”, have you actually seen it in its upper reaches? It is hardly more than a stream, and it certainly didn’t keep Alfred the Great out when he fancied going for a ride in his Triggshire Estate. Even in the lower reaches, they had boats. In fact Maker Parish was part of Devon at that time, and a number of the place-names in what was to become Plymouth have clear Brythonic origins.
Quoted from
this message
You can easily cross Offa's Dyke without realising it. The Welsh English border has fluctuated alot over time. In contrast Cornwall and England's border is pretty static and the river clearly separates the two territories - because for much of it apart from in the North you do need a boat to cross over. In the North its less obvious but I think you underestimate it has a major natural barrier. Maker was claimed by Devon and it has now been rightly returned to Cornwall. What are the placenames in Plymouth that have clear Brythonic origins? | |
|
|
|
Message 1312 - posted by geoTamar, Feb 14, 2006 Plymouth Exile, You were saying the place names to the NE of the River Ottery were not of Brythonic origin. That is not surprising as much of this land was in Devonshire prior to 1966, when it was transferred to Cornwall. North Petherwin was one of the villages affected. The River Ottery formed the effective border with that region of Cornwall prior to 1966. The following map provides a drastic contrast in place names in what used to be Devon (north of the river) and Cornwall (south of the river) genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/... | |
|
|
|
Message 1313 - posted by Yodell, Feb 14, 2006 Did you know the word Dumb is derived from Dumnonia.
Did you know that 50,000 is a drop in the ocean in the following terms.
As far as petition signing in the glentown goes.
As far as annual wages are in most English counties (please discount the glen)
As far as freckles are concerned (please discount redheads)
Did you know that Ramspit and Sanifen are not something to be afraid of as ALL the fairer sex have them, it's just a matter of how 'H' and the glen has been found to be!
Did you know there are some very silly records in the Guiness book of records such as.
Flan throwing:
People in a telephone box:
Cornglen postings about who you are and if you don't know after 73129.3 postings, you never will.
Goodnight!
| |
|
|
|
Message 1314 - posted by John of Paddington, Feb 14, 2006 IT'S TRUE, THE CORNISH DO HAVE TAILS, AND THIS IS ONE OF THE LONGEST I'VE SEEN. Talk about keyboard diarea, the biproduct of which it is. | |
|
|
|
Message 1315 - posted by Fulup le Breton, Feb 14, 2006 we feel no compelling need to declare ourselves as being a separate ‘nation’. In fact many of us see even the distinctions between England, Wales and Scotland as being somewhat artificial, and believe that we are all British
Quoted from
this message
You are a British nationalist then? You see Bob you can read history from many angles, mine is a Cornish national point of view yours would appear to be a British national version. Which is correct or more correct? Is irrationality creeping back into the debate? I am glad that you are now beginning to see what we have been trying to achieve
Quoted from
this message
Yes that's all well and good but you have not answered my question. Your work only seems to confirm the existence of a celtic southwest in which it is highly likely a Celtic ethnicity could have survived. You say wish to collect and record Celtic culture and in so doing protect it. I wish to protect my celtic Cornish culture by promoting its national status, so at heart my fight is not that of an academic but of a minority. PS Cornwall is a Duchy as has been shown, that the Duchy had a few rights and private lands in Devonshire changes nothing. | |
|
|
|
Message 1316 - posted by Yodell, Feb 14, 2006 But.........do you have freckles? | |
|
|
|
Message 1317 - posted by Plymouth Exile, Feb 14, 2006 What I want to see is some real historical evidence to back up your theory. We do know that many Cornish tinners worked the streams on Dartmoor in the Middle Ages so it is not inconceivable that Cornish could be found across the Tamar.
Quoted from
this message
Conan, Those mentioned in the Crown Pleas of the Devon Eyre 1238 were from places as diverse as Torrington, Witheridge (near Tiverton) and Hemyock in East Devon. Only one (in Plympton) was near any tin streaming works. Also, occupations were given for some of them, and there were no tinners among these. Oliver's sample of 630 is actually very small it was also selected in terms of size of modern settlement and what are named on largescale OS maps- many of these grew during the industrial period and some even only date to recent times. The percentage amongst older and smaller settlements is much, much higher.
Quoted from
this message
I have examined the 1:25,000 scale OS maps of the west of Tamar region, and (as expected) I found that north of Launceston, Cornish derived names are rather sparse. In the southeastern most part of Cornwall, the Cornish names are more frequent, but the area with the highest percentage seems to be immediately south of Launceston. Here in a 40 square kilometre region adjacent to the Tamar, I found that about 43% of the names were of Cornish origin, and even that figure included a number of ‘combe’ names. You must be the only one who sees this, perhaps you should look at the evidence more closely. Even a cursory look at a modern map distinguishes this.
Quoted from
this message
Yes there are differences and the percentages are lower, but one should not necessarily be looking for the same place-name elements. Crossing the Tamar from West to East, the frequency of ‘tre’ names decreases significantly (although they can still be found, but the frequency of ‘combe’ names increases significantly. Cornwall has an incredibly high density of ‘tre’ names (far higher even than in the Welsh speaking regions of Wales), and Devon has a very high density of ‘combe’ names (far higher than in any other county), but Cornwall has a fair number of ‘combe’ names and Devon has a reasonable number of ‘tre’ names (about 40). Where is your evidence for this?
Widespread use of middle cornish placenames - are there any in Devon?
A substantial middle Cornish literature dating from middle ages upto the modern history period. - Is there any from Devon?
Quoted from
this message
. According to Padel, scarcity of place-names containing Middle Cornish syntax (as is the case in much of East Cornwall) cannot be taken as evidence of the non-use of Cornish after the 12th century. The fact that there are a few such incidences is taken as proof of the continued use of the language at this time. In Devon the use of the Old Cornish adjectival suffix ‘-oc’ (usually seen in the form ‘-ock’, e.g. ‘Dunchideock’ or ‘Hemyock’) is common, but there are some instances of the Middle Cornish equivalent ‘-ek’ (usually seen in the form ‘-ick’). Even in the relatively small number of Brythonic major place names attested by Coates and Breeze, there are two with the Middle Cornish adjectival suffix, i.e. ‘Dowrich’ and ‘Gaverick’. There are also a number of minor place-names with the same suffix. Also the change from the O.C. ‘-nt’ ending to the M.C. ‘-ns’ ending can be found in one or two minor names. If Padel is to be believed, this should be taken as confirmation of continued Cornish usage beyond the 12th century. As for Middle Cornish literature, this did not start making an appearance in Cornwall until the time that the language had just about died out in Devon, so one would hardly expect to find any from Devon at that time. ”A number of historians, such as Michael Wood, disagree with you on this, and the evidence, which I have presented previously, tends to add weight to what Wood and others say.”
Properly reference your primary evidence for us .... Show me what Michael Wood said ... not your interpretation of it.
Quoted from
this message
“In historical terms, the 900 years or so to the Anglo-Saxon period is not a long time and Celtic speech survived in Devon till that period.”, from “Domesday – A Search for the Roots of England”, by Michael Wood, BBC Publications (1986). In another of his books (which I borrowed), I noted: “The diluting of the Celtic element in Devon was a very long process, and British speech survived for centuries.” Even noted Cornishmen such as Ken George (according to Y Cymro, on this board) and Chris Dunkerley (Bard of the Cornish Gorseth) have noted that Cornish was spoken in Devon into the 14th century. No it doesn't contradict what I said which was that English speakers like Alfred would have used the term scir for this type of area.
Quoted from
this message
You mean just like he would have used the term ‘scir’ for Devon? Can you provide primary evidence of Asser writing about Trigg?
Quoted from
this message
From memory, I believe that it was from Asser’s biography of Alfred. I do not own a copy, so I cannot check. | |
|
|
|
Message 1318 - posted by Norant, Feb 14, 2006 take a breath mate? | |
|
|
|
Message 1319 - posted by sennen, Feb 14, 2006 Yorkshire or Lancashire clearly see themselves as English and simply regret that the south (as they see it, but its really the south-east) seems to have all the wealth and power.
Quoted from
this message
That's right Ozzie, Yorkshire and Lancs see themselves as English/British but most ethnic Cornish regard themselves as Cornish/British. This is why the issue has recently been taken up with the Council of Europe/ Home Office. p.s. doesn't Yorkshire already have an assembly (even though it's unelected) ? www.yhassembly.gov.u... | |
|
|
|
Message 1320 - posted by John of Paddington, Feb 14, 2006 Blimey, Freckles and a tail, should be able to spot him. | |
|
|
| |
| |
Home
