Comments for en-gb 30 Sun 01 Mar 2015 06:55:19 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at U11204129 Ceefax 105, this morning, (headed, Bank Uncertainty Hits Share), we findIt 'comes as the Treasury is understood to be considering buying large stakes in British banks'Oh, dear, oh dear, oh dear!!!Firsat they hand out 18 billion to Santander to get them to agree to cherry pick B and B.Now they plan to BUY a stake in banks that they should nationalise.C'mon, you Treasury officials. A little courage, please. Dust off the files. Phone up your economics tutors' tutors.Public ownership models, '45-'51.Recapitalisation via buying shares would be to throw good money after bad.Look, you can't guarantee the depsits unless you own the banks outright. Otherwise, the risk is too big.After public ownership, recapitalisation would be relatively inexpensive to undertake, because confidence in the Public Bank would be enormous. Public ownership without compensation, please.After you've equalised pensions across the board and brought in a proper redistributive tax system, whoever SUFFERS from that sequestration (as opposed to 'loses out'), will find themselves on the same income as everyone else. That's the beauty of egalitarian societies.Courage, mes braves! Mon 06 Oct 2008 09:52:57 GMT+1 The Stainless Steel Cat Lady_Sue (38):If such a body is detected early enough, it doesn't need vested, stubbly heroes with "nucular" bombs to throw it off course. There was a study recently that suggested certain kinds of asteroid may only need mirrored blankets draped over portions of them to control the outgassing and adjust the trajectory.Of course, this requires reliable space probes capable of rendezvousing with asteroids (which we can now do) and the technology to detect and analyse the asteroids and their compositions (which we can do, but we need to do it better.)Back to the Mars story, those techniques could be used to nudge water-rich comets to hit Mars. Do that often enough, and we could rehydrate the planet and build up a (thin) atmosphere, much like we now suspect it once had.As for Willis, I sometimes wish Hollywood would keep its grubby mitts off science subjects; it really misleads a lot of people. (I watched "Core" last night... *shudder*) Sun 05 Oct 2008 17:48:38 GMT+1 Thunderbird Lady Sue, Please keep your movie star fantasies to youself. I suggest the are other web-sites available for that. Sun 05 Oct 2008 15:41:03 GMT+1 Lady_Sue (34 and 35) TSSCat: This is clearly a topic close to your heart so I wouldn't want to cause upset. I've seen how pock-marked the moon is but this is surely after millions and millions and millions of years, not to mention damage done during the 'Big Bang' (the real one, not the faux one in Switzerland). Meteorites hurtling through space heading towards earth just reminds me of that Bruce Willis film. OK I accept there may have been some hits, as per your example but what are the chances of NASA doing anything really useful like building a 'meteor smashing canon' to fire at such things? The construction of such a canon could probably already be done with the technology available now. As for us wiping ourselves out - that may well happen. Sun 05 Oct 2008 15:28:50 GMT+1 H Entertainment news.The Rock Supergroup the WMDs have reformed, with most of the old line-up.Given that their last release 'Still Looking' was such a disappointment,and they haven't been in the studio together for some years, critics recognize that this is quite a gamble.So with a line-up of Peter Mandelson on synthesizer, Alastair Campbell on megaphone and Gordon Brown on clunk, they live again.There is an unconfirmed report that Tony (Disaster) Blair will join them for a one-off gig.As usual, Tony will be on lyre.At the same time, we hear that the 'Me Toos' have yet another lead singer, having dropped the virtuoso sidesman, Ken Clarke. The early years of the century had seen the rise of a new genre, at which the WMDs excelled, and to which the Me Toos aspired - 'on-message'. And Ken was decidedly 'off'. With the fading of the WMDs, it was thought that the folk-rock group, the Dem Der Libs, might make a breakthrough. Their last effort 'Not STILL looking!' proved to be a disappointment. Now the DDLs have given one of the backing group, Vince (Cableknit) Sweater, the opportunity to provide several lead vocals.Even some fans of the genre 'cardigans' have recognized his ability. Sun 05 Oct 2008 15:16:28 GMT+1 RJMolesworth Dragon@13Not cunning enough young dragon! You gave yourself away with the word "puff". It was you that burnt our hard earned dosh practicing your dragon fire!Ok, let's see where the money might be. Some ne'er do well derelict is sold a mortgage he can't afford to pay by a dodgy broker.The house seller cops the cash.The broker cops the commision. The borrower pays some money to the bank on the mortgage loan.What next?The seller buys a better house with a mortgage. He isn't a derelict so he can afford to pay his mortgage.The dodgy broker buys a yacht with his ill gotten gains.The derelict stops paying his mortgage.What next?Derelicts everywhere stop paying their mortgages and their houses get reposessed. Banks, who were happy to fund a 20 year mortgage 6 months ago, panic and sell repossed houses at loss instead of slipping them into the market at a rate it can absorb.House prices fall. Our seller is miffed, but he likes his new house and continues to pay his mortgage, quietly confident that the price will rise again in a few years time.The dodgy brokers, who do not turn their hands to selling crack cocaine, sell their yachts.Result?Someone is sitting on a pile of yachts and living in some houses bought at a knock down price and someone has enough money to buy crack cocaine.Do you realise what this means. Joe Sixpack just robbed a bank! Several banks.Unfortunately, his government isn't going to let him get away with it and is going to make him give it back to them.The moral of this story is that you can't steal from the rich and get away with it, at least, not in a democracy. Sun 05 Oct 2008 13:09:28 GMT+1 The Stainless Steel Cat Lady_Sue (21):Oh yes and..."Do you really believe there will be space stations for colonies of families in the future? Isn't it all a bit Stanley Kubrick? "No, actually I believe we'll wipe ourselves out, either due to greed, intolerance or simply wrecking our one and only planet. I can *hope* though. Sun 05 Oct 2008 08:39:08 GMT+1 The Stainless Steel Cat Lady_Sue (21):"...think the idea of meteors threatening us is slightly in the realm of science fiction."Um, have you *seen* the moon?[Link to one of my moon pictures]There are currently 1600 known Apollo or "Earth Crossing" asteroids known, with more being discovered all the time, thanks to governments finally taking this threat seriously and funding search programmes.In 1908, a meteorite thought to be around 200 feet in diameter exploded above Tunguska in Siberia with the force of 10 to 20 megatons of TNT (the Hiroshima bomb was around 15 *kilo*tons) and flattened around 800 square miles of forest. Imagine that happening in a populated area.I'm sorry, but this is *not* science fiction and it's not a case of *if* it will happen, only *when*. Sun 05 Oct 2008 08:31:14 GMT+1 David_McNickle pmL 30, Moan, moan, moan, moan, moan! Do you ever do anything for fun? Sun 05 Oct 2008 08:11:49 GMT+1 David_McNickle Charlie 28, A 2008 gold sovereign from Coincraft (I get their catalog) costs 145 pounds. Sun 05 Oct 2008 08:06:53 GMT+1 David_McNickle Charlie 28, He had some krugerrands and odds and ends of other foreign money. Sun 05 Oct 2008 08:02:22 GMT+1 U11204129 What lame responses we are getting from the authorities to the credit crush!In my life time, we have seen planning replaced by chaotic and speculation-prone markets, markets which, inherently, deliver unfair outcomes, in every aspect of human affairs.Suddenly, in this credit crash, the markets for the markets, the banks, the bourses, and the markets they serve, are revealed to us for what they are.They are Places where the unnecessary complications that profit-making brings, result in huge inefficiencies.They are Places that fail to deliver distributive justice or allocative efficiency.They are Places infested with bloated profit takers, slick spivs and dishonest rogues.****It really is time to clear these cheap skate money changers out of the temple, with whips if necessary. The atheist in me calls for it, and all heaven demands it.For decades these market low lifes have fiddled their way to wealth and power by manipulating the value of OUR capital - (the capital we as a society have put aside)Manipulating it daily. In the 'good old days' (that they hope will return) they bid up their own paper wealth, and lived off the equity that they had created, purely by shouting out numbers a couple of percent higher than last months shout.These godless amoral anomic marketeers have been living off the backs of the rest of us for all of my adult life.And the greatest cost, to repeat, is that problems of coordination in every market from rape seed oil, to health services to building houses, are not solved by SIMPLE PLANNING mechanisms that 'every housewife understands' but, instead, exacerbated by market mechanisms designed to deliver a 'slice' to these parasites from their own private widows cruse - our society's accumulated, hard earned stocks.And our politicians seek the political representatives of these parasites in other countries, in France, in Germany., in America, to 'come up' with plans to bail the vermin out?Morrison would not turn in his grave, he would rise from it to hunt down his errant grandson, if Mandelson does not recommend administrative methods to replace these stupid markets and fulfill the fairly straightforward tasks of coordination that they (fail to) fulfill.Does Peter think his grandfather's war time methods didn't work? That we would have been better off if wartime logistics had been coordinated by MiloMinderbinder methods? In peace time, planning works even better, Peter.You know, Peter, the polls say that the public wants you to solve the crisis and then plans to return a Tory government.What have you got to lose in not adopting the administrative methods of your grandsire, by taking into public ownership and control all of the major London markets?In one sense those who say, 'Look to next year, to 5 years time or longer, this will all pass', know more than they think they do.If the coming slump brings China, India and oil Islam quickly to heel, for example. Or if Western finance capital realises it cannot win. Then things might change.But then we would be back to the daily reevaluation of pensions, of overall demand, of the very distribution of wealth and income, driven by the profit seeking shenanigans of these financial charlatans.They are vulnerable and they know it.Ignore their nonsense.'The crisis was caused by government spending and personal debt excess' No, in an ideological world where governments are only allowed to spend on warfare, they spend too little on what's important, on housing for example (and so cause asset inflation).In an ideological world where government is (was!!!!!!!!) not allowed to create financial resources, and companies must balance the books, what but private citizen debt could oil the capitalist wheels? 'We do need speculators in OUR market, you know' Yeah. like honey bees need parasitic raiding hornets, as they distribute the honey as is best for the hive. 'Markets are neutral, y'know' Yeah, like MacHeath's shiv is neutral. We cannot forgive them. They know what they do, did and will do again if they can********. 'If we can weed out the dishonest traders and the dodgy practices, then......' No, the dishonesty you think you have identified is ubiquitous - it IS the 'common practice' , the modus operandi of these markets. Dishonesties like pricing your own assets way above worth, pricing them as high as you can get away with, pricing them as high as they think they can con us into accepting.)Now the game is in reverse. Everything will become worthless as the slump hits. The same machines, the same factories, the same houses, the same workers. Drained of value as Western finance seeks to reassert its hegemony.)To the marketeers I say, in the name of your God, be gone. To our elected decision makers, I say that the tide is in flood. Now is the time to take the commanding (financial) heights of the economy into public ownership and control.Curiously Mandelson has a background better suited to this task than Brown.They have, both, however, a chance to forge a unique partnership by reconnecting with the spirit and practices of '45.****Some redundancy there? There surely should be - of all of them.********The classic account (from Walras) of how markets work is the Arrow-Hahn-Debreu model (see Debreu's Theory of Value). The dubious advantages that markets bring there (dubious, 'cos planning would guarantee them automatically) are only achieved by the insistence that individuals act wholly selfishly. Sat 04 Oct 2008 21:37:20 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart River City is Glasgow. Maybe it's RBS?Or, in Sterling markets;-)ed Sat 04 Oct 2008 17:45:01 GMT+1 Charlie D_Mc@27And, in many ways, your friend was right.Buy a gold sovereign today and see what it costs... Sat 04 Oct 2008 16:15:30 GMT+1 David_McNickle A now deceased friend of mine blamed a lot of the economic problems on the fact that we no longer back up our money with gold, silver, aluminum, whatever. Sat 04 Oct 2008 15:50:48 GMT+1 David_McNickle RJM 11, I prefer that Declan Curry. Sat 04 Oct 2008 15:45:16 GMT+1 David_McNickle BS 6, But Preston said that there was trouble in River City. Even trouble, trouble, trouble! Maybe that's the failing bank pmL is looking for. Sat 04 Oct 2008 15:37:29 GMT+1 David_McNickle pmL 23, I think it is the Dogger Bank, but don't quote me on it. Sat 04 Oct 2008 15:33:19 GMT+1 U11204129 Nils Pratley in the Guardian is hinting at it being out there.Robert Peston says there is one, on his blog site AND when hosted by PM.So which bank is it, please?I mean the bank, here, which is close to collapse, and which the BoE is breaking its own discounting rules to help.Apparently it doesn't even have enough marketable assets even under the new lax regime to keep going.So we 'know' there IS such a bank.But despite the brave Peston's reputation and PM's name for fearlessness, we do not know which one. PM sometimes gives the impression that its blog jokes are more important than mere news.So as a BLOGGER, I ask, please PM editors (there, I'm so keen you should deign to tell all, I've stopped calling you HeadHitters), WHICH BANK IS IT?Or do you take the patriarchal view that it is not ours to know****, or have PM and Peston run out of bottle? And my grain of sand, in DIY-standard currency to pay for the info, is a smile for you,.... :-))......., brought on by reminding you that two leading monetary theorists, who worked closely together, in the 70s were called Panic and Close.**** Big Sis, do I need to say 'our place' there, or does the pronoun carry that (and simultaneously other) implications? Sat 04 Oct 2008 12:26:51 GMT+1 Charlie DI_Wyman@20A wise move I think and, great idea on your part.Tell me, purely for interests sake...What "if" I could make available to you the advisory services of someone. A person variously referred to as "The Master of Spin", "The Dark Lord", "The Prince of "Darkness", "Lord Sleaze". Oh, and "Mandy" (well, what's in a name..?)A person understood to be well-versed in murky Political manoeuvering AND, shall we say, "discreet" financial transactions... Now, how many grains of sand per hour might that be worth I wonder..?Oh, to be fair, before you give an answer; should you wish to meet this Gn-ius, I think you'd have to travel to him as I believe many carriers might classify "him" as toxic material... Sat 04 Oct 2008 11:23:27 GMT+1 Lady_Sue (4) TSSCat: think the idea of meteors threatening us is slightly in the realm of science fiction. As to the planet not sustaining us, Barnoness Warnock and her ilk will probably have passed an act making it mandatory for everyone over the age of 75 to top themselves in order to save money on the NHS before that happens. Do you really believe there will be space stations for colonies of families in the future? Isn't it all a bit Stanley Kubrick? The reason NASA didn't send husbands and wives to the moon during the space race was because of the conversation that would inevitably ensue on their return to earth: "Where did you pack the moon rocks, dear?""Moon rocks? I thought you were packing the moon rocks." Sat 04 Oct 2008 11:17:40 GMT+1 DI_Wyman I am now using grains of sand as currency, they are probably more valuable than the $ and the £. Sat 04 Oct 2008 10:31:37 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart It gets worse;-(ed Sat 04 Oct 2008 00:23:51 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart Pigs in S--T "We got away with it!"$700,000,000,000.00 - The greatest ripoff in history!A sad day;-(ed Sat 04 Oct 2008 00:09:29 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart PML, "Dow has fallen (at one point by more than 200 points) since the House passed its motion.""Motion" is the correct term for the bag of ---- just "passed"!"Apart from the Troubled Assets Relief Program, the bill before the Senate includes: * Extensions of the AMT patch, tax deductions on state and local sales taxes, tuition, teacher expenses and real property taxes and tax credits for business research and new market investors * Energy tax credits and incentives to encourage wind and refined coal production, new biomass facilities, wave and tide electricity generators, solar energy property improvements, CO2 capturing, plug-in electric drive vehicles, idling reduction units on truck engines, cellulosic biofuels ethanol production, energy efficient houses, offices, dishwashers, clothes washers and refrigerators, and fringe benefits for employees commuting by bicycle. * A requirement for private insurance plans to offer mental health benefits on par with medical-surgical benefits * Tax relief provisions for victims of this summer's Midwestern floods, and Hurricane Ike * Freezing of deductions for sale and exchange of oil and natural gas, mandatory basis reporting by brokers for transactions involving publicly traded securities and an extension of the oil spill taxBut it also extends the following tax provisions: * Economic development credit to American Samoan businesses * $10,000 tax credit for training of mine rescue team members * 50% immediate expensing for extra underground mine safety equipment * Tax credit for businesses with employees from an Indian reservation * Accelerated depreciation for property used mostly on an Indian reservation * 50% tax credit for some expenditures on maintaining railroad tracks * 7-year recovery period for motorsports racetrack property * Expensing of cleaning up "brownfield" contaminated sites * Enhanced deductions for businesses donating computers and books to schools, and for food donations * Deduction for income from domestic production in Puerto Rico * Tax credit for employees in Hurricane Katrina disaster area * Tax incentives for investments in poor neighborhoods in D.C. * Increased rehabilitation credit for buildings in Gulf area * Reduction of import duties on some imported wool fabrics, transfers other duties to Wool Trust Fund to promote competitiveness of American wool * Special expensing rules for film and TV productionsAnd there's more: * Increasing cover of rum excise tax revenues to Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands * Making it easier for film and TV companies to use deduction for domestic production * Exempting children's wooden arrows from excise tax * Income averaging for Exxon Valdez litigants for tax purposes"Wall Street JournalOINK!ed Fri 03 Oct 2008 23:41:39 GMT+1 Chris Ghoti Oh, and pmL @ 15, I thought the US had been bankrupt economically for quite a long time now: owing more money that it had or would ever be able to pay? isn't that what 'bankrupt' means? Fri 03 Oct 2008 22:42:49 GMT+1 Chris Ghoti I thought that it was not so much that the money had *gone* as that it never actually existed, as it were. Is money that one expects to get by selling something if the price of that something goes up before one has to pay for it, real money? If on Friday person A agrees to sell a biscuit on Monday to person B for 5p, and by Monday the price of a biscuit has gone up to 10p to everyone except person B who can then sell on the biscuit to person C for twice as much as it costs him to buy it from person A, is the 5p profit that person B expects to get on Monday 'real' on Saturday and Sunday?As for 'bad debt', doesn't that mean 'debts that nobody is ever going to be able to pay', and is any money on those 'real' in any sense?Honestly, this whole thing seems to me to be about as 'real' as the idea that anyone on the Archers would take an IOU from Joe Grundy! Fri 03 Oct 2008 22:40:03 GMT+1 U11204129 13And fractional reserve banking means that deposits are NOT covered.And the BoE, too, certainly is not, for this volume of gift to the financial sector.Justin Webb (the BBC's own economics Nobel Prize winner) says that the markets' response to the 800 billion, that it cannot afford (the US IS bankrupt), that the House has voted to give to Wall Street, is irrelevant.Could that be because Wall Street went three and a half percent down (and close a percent and a half down ON THE DAY)?According to Justin, its whether the Main Street hardware store can get credit from the Main Street bank now.(Or words to that effect).And with banks down so much, as a result of the crisis, how CAN they lend to the restaurant next door on Main Street? (You think the small town banks don't need big bank credit facilities to back them up?).It won't wash, Justin. Wall Street is well down after the House voted for the plan.It's because the US government is bankrupt. Morally and politically, as per usual, now economically, too.Where is it supposed to get the 800 billion from? The banks that are themselves bankrupt? Fri 03 Oct 2008 22:05:02 GMT+1 Electric Dragon The money, RJMolesworth, has vanished. Destroyed. Gone, in a puff of write down magic. Just as fractional reserve banking allows banks to create money to lend to people, so it allows banks to write off money that they're never going to get back. Fri 03 Oct 2008 20:55:23 GMT+1 U11204129 Bagehot talks of the 'external drain'.Is there one going on at the moment?I ask 'cos you only ever tell us the £ Euro and the £ Dollar rates - both currencies also adversely affected by the credit crush. Why, Head-Hitters? Two direct, closed ended questions for you***.(*** The one here, and which bank was it that Peston realised is completely skint?)And one, open ended. Why did he go to such lengths to avoid telling us, which? Fri 03 Oct 2008 20:11:24 GMT+1 RJMolesworth There is a tendancy for reporters to get rather over exited in such times as these. Mr Peston is certainly no Evan Davis and it is shame that he hasn't been brought back for the "crisis".I would like someone to tell me where the money has gone. Who has it now. When Norman Lamont gave away 7 billion of our money to George Soros and his friends we new exactly where it had gone. It didn't help us get it back but it was nice to know all the same. So where is the money this time. Fri 03 Oct 2008 20:05:25 GMT+1 U11204129 8 and 9. No, I meant it. You would be making yourself really quite useful, checking it.'Cos otherwise, no doubt, Rupert would be saying 'We don't have to answer that point about Robert studiedly not telling us which bank is particularly boracic (or posh for that), 'cos it turns out pmLeader was criticising the reporting ethics of the star of The Sound of Music and not our Peston Radio and TV bloke at all.' Fri 03 Oct 2008 20:01:29 GMT+1 Big Sister I didn't mean to come over as a knowitall, pmLeader - in fact, a number of other bloggers have made the same mistake.I think your aide memoire rather fine, by the way, and from now on I'll think of him in the same way. Poor chap! He's probably quite nice. Fri 03 Oct 2008 19:26:43 GMT+1 U11204129 We'll get a certain amount of arm waving from that Peston TV and radio bloke, tonight, 'cos Dow has fallen (at one point by more than 200 points) since the House passed its motion.I tell you, these self appointed experts, whether they talk the Oxbridge of Mockney or not, do NOT know what they are talking about.The Western financial system is collapsing. (Whether by the work of the Gods or from the disorder of natural chaos is an important point. (As M. Aurellius never seemed to understand). Governments are beginning to fail. They will therefore be seen as unable to provide effective 'rescue' packages). In fact this crunch looks so custom-built to do capitalism's dirty work, I'd argue 'design'.The system'll continue to collapse for as long as Western finance aims to put China, India and oil Islam firmly in their places.Our job? To recognise that world and intergenerational equality are our aim.Anything that promotes that, we support, anything that detracts from that we oppose.At the moment, this crash is clearing the fetid air of dishonesty in the financial world.We have watched those crooks mis-price OUR assets for over two decades now (since the Big Bang), making money hand over fist at our expense.The Thatcher ideology promoted the idea that government credit creation is wrong. Companies must balance their books, so who else in the economy, except private individuals could have created credit. For which they are now blamed.So cheer up, lads and lasses. The worst that can befall us, is a little economic justice.Can you check the spelling - especially of proper names, please Big Sister. With thanks. Fri 03 Oct 2008 18:52:35 GMT+1 U11204129 7.Thanks for that. Now I know, I'll remember by thinking 'that Peston TV and radio'.He's more like Adam Adamant.Whether you want to count my 'r's or not, the question remains, is he a reporter or a policy maker?Why weren't we told which bank it was? Fri 03 Oct 2008 18:15:49 GMT+1 Big Sister pmLeader: Robert Preston was the star of The Music Man (76 Trombones, and all that malarkey), as opposed to Robert Peston, son of Maurice, who has just been compared to Kenneth Williams by Andy Hamilton on the News Quiz ;o) Fri 03 Oct 2008 17:40:19 GMT+1 U11204129 Robert Preston tells us 'a bank' was SERIOUSLY short of funds, this morning.Which bank was that, then, Roberrt?Shouldn't Robert and PM tell us that sort of thing, during their reports?They ARE reporters aren't they, not policy makers, after all!Please could I have a Head-Hitters reply to that point? Fri 03 Oct 2008 17:30:18 GMT+1 The Stainless Steel Cat Oh, that letter about the snow-on-Mars piece annoyed me. The attitude of "let's spend our money on this planet instead of wasting it in space" makes my blood boil.It's so short sighted. If we don't *invest* in exploration and space technology now, we won't have it when we need it, whether that's because a meteor is threatening us with annihilation, or because we've reached a point where the planet can't sustain us (some think we've already passed that) and need to start exploiting the rest of the solar system.Seeing whether there's snow on Mars might seem trivial, but it's a small piece of a large jigsaw puzzle and if the human race is to survive, never mind thrive, we have to keep filling in those pieces. Fri 03 Oct 2008 16:59:49 GMT+1 Charlie mittfh@01...a wise move or, perhaps frighteningly (to me at least), the only viable choice available to Brown..? How does the saying go? Desperate times call for...I was going to question whether Brown's stewardship could really have lead to this but, clearly, it has. Mind you, some good has already come of it. It's made me reconsider my views on the Resurrection. And, from what "Mandy" said in a BBC News interview a short while ago, from his perspective there can be no doubt about it.Resurrection that is... Fri 03 Oct 2008 15:38:31 GMT+1 The Stainless Steel Cat I think Eddie obviously isn't on holiday, they've just promoted him to "Techie" and locked him in the Glass Box with a laptop and a coffee machine. Fri 03 Oct 2008 15:24:12 GMT+1 mittfh Another box from the spectre of Eddie...No doubt "Mandy" will feature quite heavily - although it would be interesting if you can find someone who thinks it's a wise move... Fri 03 Oct 2008 13:49:16 GMT+1