Comments for http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml en-gb 30 Thu 30 Jul 2015 14:28:53 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml lucien desgai http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=98#comment52 52 No it wasn't. Wed 04 Aug 2010 07:57:41 GMT+1 IMOORE http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=96#comment51 43/No, the biggest stimulus to the economy was monetary (low interest rates) not fiscal (spending) Wed 04 Aug 2010 07:19:50 GMT+1 Redheylin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=94#comment50 Eee. I wish I could be different, like everybody else.I'd be just as happy to stand out from the other 7 billion individuals. And they can stand out from me. Tue 03 Aug 2010 22:30:01 GMT+1 Redheylin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=92#comment49 49, I heard somebody spent years trying to explain it - it ended up with the people killing him so they could turn him into an infallible, immortal political leader. Tue 03 Aug 2010 22:28:18 GMT+1 lucien desgai http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=90#comment48 47 redheylinIf you were to succeed in alerting other folk to their unconscious herd behaviour then you'd cease to stand out from the crowd. Tue 03 Aug 2010 22:27:25 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=88#comment47 47. redheylinNo idea! Tue 03 Aug 2010 22:20:24 GMT+1 Redheylin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=86#comment46 given the British people's lack of appetite for revolution I was certainly not advocating that - all that gets you is another set of thugs telling you what is best for you. How can a change of political system in any way serve to draw folks' attention to their propensity to unconscious herd behaviour? Tue 03 Aug 2010 22:15:23 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=84#comment45 43. lucien desgai"Perhaps someone persuaded you otherwise"No one has persuaded me of anything yet - I'm waiting to see. With my fingers crossed. Tue 03 Aug 2010 22:08:53 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=83#comment44 44. LooterniteI'm afraid you've got the wrong chap - I'm always interested in the alternatives (if there are any). Tue 03 Aug 2010 22:04:56 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=81#comment43 Come on Sid say it you know you want to; go on, go on, say it:"There is no alternative" there you are I have written it out for you. Tue 03 Aug 2010 21:53:08 GMT+1 lucien desgai http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=79#comment42 42 SidI don't know what cuts Labour would have made, I don't answer for the Labour Party, I'm not a Labour Party member; this year was the first general election I voted for them in over a decade. The previous two elections I lived in a safe Tory seat - voting Green in 2001 and independent (Brian Haw) in 2005. It is clear to me that it's only government spending that stopped the economy going into free fall and that drastic ideological cuts are a fool's solution, with slowing growth, reduced tax take and increasing numbers claiming benefit. That was the view of the LibDems when they were seeking votes, and I seem to recall that was the sort of Keynesian perspective which you once took. Perhaps someone persuaded you otherwise with an Institute of Economic Affairs pamphlet during the election campaign (but shhh ... don't mention it until after the count). Tue 03 Aug 2010 21:52:56 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=77#comment41 Lucien - you've never answered my question about what cuts Labour would have made. Or would Labour not have made any cuts? I know they didn't say ... (I don't insist on answers - that's not what this blog is about - but I'd be interested to know.) Tue 03 Aug 2010 21:18:27 GMT+1 lucien desgai http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=75#comment40 40 SidAnd I would have voted LibDem had they been the main opposition to the Tories in my constituency ... I wouldn't now. Tue 03 Aug 2010 21:04:55 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=73#comment39 32. lucien desgaiWe got 23% of the votes and 57 seats. I think we're doing pretty well under the circumstances. Tue 03 Aug 2010 20:56:52 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=71#comment38 I wonder what Dave Cameron thinks about the Irish security services regarding the Irish Terrorist attacks. Tue 03 Aug 2010 19:42:14 GMT+1 DiY http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=69#comment37 36......One assumes that David has a spine that does not buckle in the face of minor adversity? Tue 03 Aug 2010 19:35:25 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=67#comment36 8. jonathanmorseI think you will find that scientists work on things that they are paid to do.Since no funding body was wanting to investigate homing snails therefore no scientist was engaged or a Phd research project set up into this question. Tue 03 Aug 2010 19:35:09 GMT+1 SirStarryKnight http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=66#comment35 Hope that Cameron holds his nerve and doesn't back down... Tue 03 Aug 2010 19:26:15 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=64#comment34 34 - Ah - glass half empty, huh? The alternative would be so much worse... Tue 03 Aug 2010 19:17:48 GMT+1 lucien desgai http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=62#comment33 33... or a hop skip and jump into the arms of the right-wing rich and privileged. Tue 03 Aug 2010 19:13:47 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=60#comment32 32 - Lucien, the longest journey begins with a single step. Tue 03 Aug 2010 19:05:55 GMT+1 lucien desgai http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=58#comment31 31 SidNot that easy when one of our major political parties publishes a progressive manifesto, attracts progressive votes then when the counting's over behaves as von Papen to the most reactionary government of recent times. Tue 03 Aug 2010 19:02:00 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=56#comment30 28. redheylinWith you there, redheylin ... but given the British people's lack of appetite for revolution (remember, we had a republic once - and decided we'd go back to having a king) - we have to persuade our elected representatives and public servants to do what we want. Tue 03 Aug 2010 18:53:15 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=54#comment29 25. jonathanmorse"you will have heard that education is provided"There is a difference between what I hear and what I believe. Tue 03 Aug 2010 18:51:04 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=52#comment28 8 - Wow. A complete absence of any understanding whatsoever of how the scientific community works. Impressive.As for the crime thing, one size does not fit all. Some, given support, encouragement and guidance, will pull themselves out of the cess pool. Others are confirmed criminals and will never change. The latter cohort should simply be locked away to protect the rest of us.25 – I presume you mean mentally ill, not mentally handicapped. Tue 03 Aug 2010 18:50:07 GMT+1 Redheylin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=50#comment27 when will our masters wake upOur what? - you mean our elected representatives and public servants?The answer is; they will behave with the unconsciousness of animals so long as you go on treating them like the alpha-males of the herd. When is the herd going to wake up, then? Tue 03 Aug 2010 18:37:51 GMT+1 Redheylin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=49#comment26 Stop asking yourself what would deter others, ask what would deter you Good advice Tue 03 Aug 2010 18:35:04 GMT+1 Redheylin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=47#comment25 (If we may take it that "crime" is that which is inhuman because it appals us as humans - a standpoint from which, I understand, certain faiths and philosophies beg to differ) Tue 03 Aug 2010 18:31:08 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=45#comment24 22 If you heard the interview you will have heard that education is provided. I agree with 20 it's more about giving them time to think and when they're ready, if they're not institutionalised, they'll go straight.I'd like to see more units for the mentally handicapped who end up in prison but when they wanted to build one in the grounds of a local hospital the local Tories campaigned against it, stirring up all the fears possible to boost their electoral chances. Tue 03 Aug 2010 18:30:42 GMT+1 Redheylin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=43#comment23 Around the year 1800 you could be hanged for 250 offences, including persistent malice in a child. It did not stamp out crime because an inhuman society makes people inhuman, particularly when inhumanity is imposed by power. Tue 03 Aug 2010 18:29:09 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=41#comment22 21. jonathanmorse"16 Didn't they used to hang people for murder?"They used to hang people for stealing a sheep. If you're hungry enough, the risk must be worth it ... Tue 03 Aug 2010 18:19:17 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=39#comment21 5. GalahadGalahad - I couldn't agree more. The question is - when will our masters wake up and realise that punishment is not the sole reason for imprisonment? and that people with health/education issues need to have those issues dealt with? Tue 03 Aug 2010 18:18:10 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=37#comment20 16 Didn't they used to hang people for murder? If that didn't deter, what would? If it did, why did anyone commit the crimes that would have led to the death penalty.Stop asking yourself what would deter others, ask what would deter you from doing something you want to do as much as these criminals want to do the things that they do. What would stop you from believing these things, because if we can't deter you from that deterrence doesn't work, as I don't believe it can. Tue 03 Aug 2010 18:18:06 GMT+1 Redheylin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=35#comment19 Thank you PM for covering the jail inmates - your pro-active efforts at thematic continuity in current affairs reportage are especially welcome after long bouts of press-pack driven discontinuity.Now we know what works (in the majority of cases); a good long think, rehab, a job, education and training, children and partners. As soon as magistrates are able to recommend such measures in reasonable hope that they will be taken, I am sure Kenneth Clark's plan will work out well.Weren't you able to find anyone who thought punishment worked? Tue 03 Aug 2010 18:11:28 GMT+1 IMOORE http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=33#comment18 13/Yes the chaps response was a bit extreme, but I feel there should be a lot more criticism of the pilot who landed his helicopter in a green surrounded by houses. In fact I struggle to understand why private helicopters are allowed at all, they are the most anti social form of transport around that only something that selfish rich people can enjoy, while the rest have to endure what can only be described as their aerial jack hammers. The state jumped on spotty youths who stuck power pipes on their two stroke mopeds because they made too much noise, no doubt the youths would have claimed it got them to work quicker, and so would the millionaire claim that convenience of his helicopter, so what’s the difference in nuisance between the two, other than the helicopter is a dammed sight more noisy. Tue 03 Aug 2010 18:08:43 GMT+1 DiY http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=32#comment17 13.jonathanmorse.Crikey it doesn't bare thinking about what would happen if the Taliban got there hands on an Apache! Tue 03 Aug 2010 18:07:59 GMT+1 DiY http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=30#comment16 Yep...just as we thought..the Britannia Barracks on Mousehold Heath is 3 star hotel!;-) Tue 03 Aug 2010 18:05:24 GMT+1 oldgifford http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=28#comment15 I strongly suspect that a sentence of very harsh treatment to deter, followed by high quality education, drug help etc. would be a good idea, but all we seem to get is either the hang them/flog them or smack their hands and give them lots of free TV, phones brigade. What we need is a combination of the two. You cannot deny that if the penalty is harsh enough it deters, the Arabs and Singapore have demonstrated it, unless of course you don't want to believe the facts. Remember the New York zero tolerance campaign and the following crime reduction. The answers are out there if only the bleeding heart left wing intellectuals who never experience the rough ends of society would open their eyes. Some prisoners can be rehabilitated, and we should try but letting someone out after they have killed a number of times suggests to me that something is very wrong with the judicial system. Tue 03 Aug 2010 17:53:28 GMT+1 Galahad http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=26#comment14 14 - Jonathanmorse:I'm afraid this example relates more to the government's reluctance to "encourage" the taking of cannabis than it does to evil scientists.Current UK law would, in any case, mean that any drug company wanting to market a cannabis derivative would face perhaps a decade of test tube, animal and then human trials before a licence would be considered. Tue 03 Aug 2010 17:46:41 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=24#comment13 12 People have been self medicating on cannabis, Labour tried to get scientists to make it available, but the drug company merely got the money coming their way to fund further research coming their way with no sign of the cannabis pills being available to patients. Tue 03 Aug 2010 17:40:55 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=22#comment12 BBC TV News has just reported that a rich guy has been imprisoned for 12 months for grabbing hold of a helicopter as it took off. Now I imagine helicopters are flown so well most people don't realise how difficult it is or how dangerous it would be to grab hold of it as it took off,Nevertheless putting this rich guy in prison is preferable to a fine he could easily pay, given that he risked the lives of those on the copter and given his blasé approach as he was filmed walking to court. Tue 03 Aug 2010 17:30:41 GMT+1 Galahad http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=20#comment11 8 - jonathanmorse:I agree that some scientists can be focused upon protecting their status and perks (they're only human) but your overall impression of how science works is way off base.Science poses questions and uses rigorous methods to attempt to find answers (unlike religion, which provides answers which may not be questioned).The history of science is full of examples where rigorous testing of 'folklore' has been carried out. For example in western medicine, careful investigation of folklore has helped identify plants, chemicals and procedures with therapeutic effects ("medicine") and allowed us to differentiate these from others which haven't been proven to do anything ("alternative medicine").The failure of scientists to have fully investigated the abilities of snails has more to do with them not having got round to it, rather than being evidence of an evil conspiracy. Honestly. Tue 03 Aug 2010 17:23:35 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=18#comment10 Prison institutionalises people, however harsh it is. The more institutionalised you are the harder it is to survive outside prison without thieving. Tue 03 Aug 2010 17:22:21 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=16#comment9 7 oldgiford can't say that there is no doubt that harsh treatments work as both galahad and me doubt it!If brightly coloured yellow boxes and white lines on the roads don't deter speeding how can deterrence work?Of course you could replace the speed cameras with machine guns...I still don't believe in deterrence or harsh treatments. Tue 03 Aug 2010 17:13:02 GMT+1 Galahad http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=15#comment8 7 - oldgifford:That's true, but I wonder how the relationship between the two facts works...If Singaporean society as a whole detests vandalism, this may result in a lack of vandalism (as a result of social norms / expectations) AND severe punishments for what little vandalism does exist.It may be that we experience high levels of criminal behaviour not because of a lack of harsh punishments but because of a loss of those social norms which makes criminality unacceptable. Tue 03 Aug 2010 17:07:59 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=13#comment7 The reason scientists don't want to work on this snail thing is that they don't want to give credit to a piece of folklore as would happen if the science backs up this theory.I believe scientists form a community of self supporting believers who don't want ordinary people near them, or accessing their resources in terms of grants from the tax payer or status within society. They tell us that science is a venerable way of studying the world but basically it's a mutual self appreciation society. They want us to accept their view on things, some of which are correct, some of which are self-motivated, like the status of those who award research grants.Basically they're just like a church, with high priests who govern access to the funds and protect views on science, views that are mostly about things we would all agree with but are also, coincidentally, about protecting their status and perks, and keeping ordinary people without multiple degrees, from having a say. Tue 03 Aug 2010 17:04:52 GMT+1 oldgifford http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=11#comment6 Galahad,Although I agree with your ideas, particularly # 1 there is no doubt that harsh treatments reduce crime. Singapore is another example, where vandalism is given strokes of the cane. There is very little vandalism. Tue 03 Aug 2010 17:00:38 GMT+1 jill curtis http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=9#comment5 I was sad but not surprised to hear about the mother and daughter. for so many years parents of disabled children and adults have to fight for services, many give up - worn out by the need for assessments, reviews and continual threats to their services. My parents have recently accepted direct payments to help them care for their 50 year old physically and mentally disabled daughter. However they cannot receive any care payment as they are over 65 ( being 80 and 81 years old!) More information and less red tape would encourage people to access the services they need. Tue 03 Aug 2010 16:57:17 GMT+1 Galahad http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=7#comment4 2 - NewlachAlthough I can sympathise with a gut reaction that prison should be a less pleasant experience, I'm not aware that there's ever been any research which demonstrates a relationship between 'toughness' and a reduced reconviction rate.I'm afraid that no matter how tough prison becomes, there will still be large numbers of people for whom it provides a feeling of 'place' and security from the outside world...I'd argue that the most effective steps which we could take in order to reduce prison numbers and repeat offences would be to:1. Decriminalise the use of drugs2. Put more effort into improving literacy, numeracy and basic employment skills3. Provide a better range of mental health services, to cater for those people with mental health problems currently in prison Tue 03 Aug 2010 16:54:36 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=5#comment3 Dave Cameron criticised Pakistan because he wanted India to buy our goods and they don't like Pakistan, the Pakistan President says that we're losing the war on Afghanistan, but to a French newspaper that probably wants to hear that, or to quote that from someone like the Pakistan President, as they presumably don't like us. Tue 03 Aug 2010 16:53:33 GMT+1 oldgifford http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=3#comment2 In Arab countries they cut off the hands of thieves and I understand there is very little thieving. I'm not advocating such extreme measures but it does suggest that a suitable sentence can be a deterrent, certainly not the 12 years for murder often handed out by judges. Tue 03 Aug 2010 16:51:06 GMT+1 newlach http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=1#comment1 It was very interesting to listen to the 3 prisoners, one of whom was back behind bars for the 10th time. In his case it seems clear to me that prison does not work: it is a cushy life behind bars. This, however, is not to say that short sentences should be abolished and replaced with community sentences. Part of the solution to the problem is to make prison life tough. For persistent criminals the sentence should be increased to a minimum of, say, 10 years on the 3rd offence. I would have liked to know why the criminals were behind bars and perhaps tomorrow we could hear from some victims of crime. Tue 03 Aug 2010 16:43:34 GMT+1 Galahad http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_148.shtml?page=0#comment0 Describing the mother and her disabled daughter who tragically died as "having slipped through the net" is misleading, as it suggests some failure on the part of Social Services.It seems that support was offered but rejected, in which case its difficult to know what more could have been done. Tue 03 Aug 2010 16:43:02 GMT+1