Comments for http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml en-gb 30 Wed 23 Jul 2014 05:02:51 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=98#comment76 76. skoubhie_dubhSo what is your opinion of the enclosures acts or the lowland clearances. These were the brutal ways that England and Lowland Scotland moved out of feudalism and into modern agriculture and hence the world as we now know it. Times were tough then for the peasant classes, wherever they lived. My dad never had the hump about history, he got on with his life and made the best of his lot. Getting stuck in past history will generate chips and this will wear you down. The fact that ancestors of mine survived the Highland clearances on my fathers side and survived the Enclosures Acts on my English mothers side does not make me go swivel-eyed and hateful.I am comfortable in my genetic inheritance and get on as best I can. Tue 03 Aug 2010 21:50:34 GMT+1 skoubhie_dubh http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=97#comment75 #74Shame you missed out all the prior text to the bit you quoted. PS I think the reason wiki put inverted commas round the word "improvements" might mean that they think this term is used loosely in this context.Selective bits you passed by to get your quote:-line 3 "a lingering bitterness among the descendants of those forced to emigrate "line 4 "Crofters became a source of virtually free labour to their landlords, being forced to work long hours"line 9 "culminating after the 1746 Battle of Culloden with brutal repression"line 14 "The Disarming Act of 1746 and the Clan Act made ineffectual attempts to subdue the Scottish Highlands, and eventually troops were sent in"line 15 "Government garrisons were built or extended "line 15 "had the effect of limiting organisational travel "line 16 "families living on a subsistence level were displaced"Landlords behavior paragraphline 3 "90 families were forced to leave their crops in the ground and move their cattle, furniture and timbers to the land they were offered 20 miles (32 km) away on the coast, living in the open until they had built themselves new houses"line 7 "his tenants were subjected to a process of relentless eviction"Kind of puts a different light on it I would assume. Tue 03 Aug 2010 20:12:57 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=96#comment74 63 - skooubhie_dubh.You ahve me all wrong. I'm not remotely interested in trying to change them any more than I'm interested in trying to change anyone else. If that's how they want to conduct themselves then I am delighted for them. What I am very interested in is making sure that they don't try and visit their backward opinions on me. Tue 03 Aug 2010 19:16:52 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=94#comment73 70. skoubhie_dubhYou seem to deliberatly mis-read my posts. I repeat "I said one of the things."My fathers dad in fact went to Canada before the first world war and came back after he got frost bite. As it turned out his frost bitten feet meant that he was unsuitable for the trenches.From Wikipedia we have:"What became known as the Clearances were considered by the landlords as necessary "improvements". They are thought to have been begun by Admiral John Ross of Balnagowan Castle in Scotland in 1762. MacLeod of MacLeod (i.e. the chief of MacLeod) began experimental work on Skye in 1732. Chiefs engaged Lowland, or sometimes English, factors with expertise in more profitable sheep farming, and they "encouraged", sometimes forcibly, the population to move off suitable land.""Chiefs engaged Lowland, or sometimes English," those chiefs were Scottish.Now I have a Highland name and you know what, we have moved on from the 18th century mindset and have put history where it belongs. If you don't treat history as past events you will develop a nasty chip. Tue 03 Aug 2010 19:04:14 GMT+1 Redheylin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=93#comment72 "And that lovely habit of locking up children's playgrounds on Sundays still makes me shiver." "Ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.For the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to those who are like these children." ... Tue 03 Aug 2010 17:34:29 GMT+1 newlach http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=92#comment71 63 skoubhie_dubhIt would appear that the moderators of this message board saw nothing rude in what I posted yesterday. There are issues about which we are all unduly sensitive. I think that the drivel uttered by the religious fanatic on yesterday's edition of the programme should be ignored. It is all right for him to work on Sundays but not all right for everyone else to relax as they wish on Sundays! Tue 03 Aug 2010 17:29:39 GMT+1 Redheylin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=90#comment70 20 - fjd. Glad to hear you are feeling better. I think it is very much normal to find, as you say, "it was wonderful...until I met other Christians" and that "I never read the bible for myself really. I only seemed to read it and then apply it to others...not me really" and that "I don't know what on earth the established church has to do with the meanings of the teachings of Christ most of the time."What I meant to point out that such was the exact case with the crowd that Jesus was talking to;"do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not"and where (57) it is written; "In general, they trail misery and moaning in their wake in my experience. Epitomised by the Rev. I.M. Jolly. And that lovely habit of locking up children's playgrounds on Sundays still makes me shiver."behold, it was even so 2000 years ago;"For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders...But all their works they do for to be seen of men"The poor guy got absolutely nowhere, people carried on as before, but under the banner of this heretic who says that religion is a purely private affair. So, as Skoubhie says;23 "You need to move back to the old testament which is the scripture of choice."That's right; I was just saying; "After 2000 years, churches have not had the slightest success in spreading the word of the gospel - to the point that they have not even bothered to read it themselves." Tue 03 Aug 2010 17:26:32 GMT+1 skoubhie_dubh http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=89#comment69 #67. Looternite wrote:"I am sorry my friend but my dad was an economic migrant into England after WW 2. From my knowledge of history; famine, clearances etc. were way back before my dads time. Fits with my remark about 18th century mindset."Does this not contradict your previous response that the imigrants to England from Scotland and Ireland were there to find religious freedom? Your 18th century estimate is also a bit out. The Napier Commision was reported in 1883 and discussed the current state of the highlands and the clearing of the lands and townships. The boat loads of emigrants from Scotland were leaving to colonise Canada mostly but also America and Australia up to the early 1900's and the government of the day were still promising to give back the lands confiscated in return for the men's efforts in the First World War. The 1700's seem to be a good couple of hundred years out. Actually the clearances had still to start at that time. The possible start would be with the troops being sent to clear lands and build fortified keeps after the 1745 rebelion. Hence so many place names here such as FORT William, FORT Augustus, FORT George, ... Look at the map and see all the roads that General Wade made to be able to keep the Highlanders under scrutiny. Maybe with 'Call Me Dave' in charge and his 'respect' agenda for the furthest colonies of what is left of the empire he will finally give the land back. There again ... he has already let the respect agenda slip with his last visit to his palls in Washington. Just as the Jam sang 'God's on our side as so is Washington ..." and when that is the case all will be well. "Yes I know that some churches call their equivalents Ministers or Elders but they are still carrying out the same functions as priests in other versions of faith."Ah! now I don't know if your being serious or 'extruding the urine' as the saying goes. However, just one reply to this. Can I have a ring side seat when you explain to Dr Iain Paisley that he is just a priest in disguise? Thank you. Tue 03 Aug 2010 17:12:44 GMT+1 MoC http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=88#comment68 skoubhie_dubh @ 63Fair enough. A reasonable viewpoint. Thanks for taking time to explain. Tue 03 Aug 2010 16:13:04 GMT+1 GotToTheEnd http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=87#comment67 66 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMqKxpq6QAE&feature=relatedThank you very much for the lead-in. Tue 03 Aug 2010 15:20:46 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=85#comment66 64. skoubhie_dubh64. skoubhie_dubhI am sorry my friend but my dad was an economic migrant into England after WW 2. From my knowledge of history; famine, clearances etc. were way back before my dads time. Fits with my remark about 18th century mindset. Yes I know that some churches call their equivalents Ministers or Elders but they are still carrying out the same functions as priests in other versions of faith. Tue 03 Aug 2010 15:00:36 GMT+1 skoubhie_dubh http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=84#comment65 Type "Gaelic psalms at Back Free Church, Isle Of Lewis- 20/21/oct/2003" into you tube should get you a 6 minute idea of how psalms should be sung. Tue 03 Aug 2010 13:27:36 GMT+1 GotToTheEnd http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=83#comment64 The singing on North Uist, Harris and Lewis in the churches is wonderful.But I can't find a Youtube reference.Can anyone help? Tue 03 Aug 2010 13:21:19 GMT+1 skoubhie_dubh http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=81#comment63 #59. Looternite wrote:"One of the reasons so many people in England have Scottish or Irish names is because their fathers or grandfathers were eager to escape from these priest ridden 18th century societies and be free."Nothing to do with famine, clearances and economic wilderness then?The established Scottish churches do not do priests in any shape or form - that is for churches on foreign soil such as the Roman and English churches Tue 03 Aug 2010 13:13:48 GMT+1 skoubhie_dubh http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=80#comment62 Right guys, I need a bit of a reality check here.To summarise.I was a bit put out by the flipant and excedingly rude (in my view) post at #13 so I thought I would answer it. I did not really want to get bogged down in religious exchanges, but just to put a few points in reply to the post. It seems to have got a wee bit away from the original post. However, I used to live in Lewis, but do not now for family reasons, although I still enjoy my visits back to the islands.I am not a member, or ever will be I would guess, of the Free, Free Presbyterian or the Free Church (continuing). I hold very few if any of their views, but I think that they should be left in their own wee area to live as they want.I don't think they should be able to impose their views on the wider world, but I also don't think the wider world should be so quick to force their own views on the islanders. If this is the way they choose to live then so be it. If people immigrate into that community then it is them who need to change and not the locals - they are after all the visitors and would be rightly upset if others did the same thing to their own communities. I can only imagine the problems that would be caused with the attitude stated earlier of ..."I am a citizen of all of this country and it is my right to do whatever I please so long as it is not proscribed by law."To change the lives of the locals from a distance is a bit like the theory of regime change and I would have hoped that USA and GB would have learnt their lesson on that by now, although I somehow doubt it.Currently Lewis is modernising. Students retuning from mainland colleges and universities and the influence of TV programmes is changing the thinking of the young, and it is probably only a matter of time before it becomes as 'normal' as the rest of the country. I would readily say visit it before it is too late and it becomes just another wee similar place to everywhere else. It is different. The views are different. But don't try changing them because 'it is your right' from far away. Leave them to change their way themselves. It's one of these "when it's gone ..." scenarios.#58Yes as with anything there are those who obey and those who don't.I saw last week on a trip south how many motorists drove at 70mph+ and slowed down to avoid the cameras in much the same way. There are supposedly celibate church men who are less than celebate and hope not to get caught. Is this not the same everywhere. People are always trying to be able to do things that they are not supposed to be doing. I do have the odd paper clip at home from work and hope not to be caught at any time. This is just the nature of life. Maybe the Skye population were the ones from the other denominations and the non believers as well as tourists and businesses. Obviously not all in the community are of the same beliefs.For the closed swings, and all the other 'modern inconveniences', this is passing or has already passed, but the beaches are the best in the country, empty of habitation and a wonderful Sunday walk if you are not of the severest faith. (check them out at flickr dot com). You can still drive round the island and see the views although at about £1.30/litre at present it is not a cheap day out. Maybe it is a chance to have a family day away from the usual activities.Sorry I can't claim originality with the name. The lead singer of King Creosote had a band called this in his early days and I though it was quite good. Its not every day you get to say Skooby Doo in Gaelic. Tue 03 Aug 2010 13:10:12 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=79#comment61 53. ExpectingtheEndSame to you. Tue 03 Aug 2010 13:08:13 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=77#comment60 60. Alan_NMy dad never ate salad stuff and yet, he used to grow lettuces and radishes. He grew this stuff for us English offspring.One time my dad was taken out to a posh resturant in Edinburgh by our Scottish relatives. As it was a posh resturant the new potatoes placed on his plate were "just a wee handful". My dad had to have an extra order of spuds otherwise he would never have enjoyed it. A good portion of spuds, boiled, mashed, roast or chipped had to be part of any meal. Tue 03 Aug 2010 12:54:34 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=76#comment59 59 - Nah. We just didn't like the food!;-) Tue 03 Aug 2010 12:26:18 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=75#comment58 46. skoubhie_dubhOne of the reasons so many people in England have Scottish or Irish names is because their fathers or grandfathers were eager to escape from these priest ridden 18th century societies and be free. Tue 03 Aug 2010 12:20:28 GMT+1 AmbassadorDelenn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=74#comment57 Skoubhie_Dubh - I agree with Madness @57, but only in so far as you have an excellent name (I'm sure there was a Finnish entry in the Eurovision a few years ago called "Shubi Doo".....)On the religious question, I'd probably take the view of "when in (if one can use the term in a religious context) Rome....." but I do recall spending a week on the Isle of Skye and on the Sunday the side-streets near the petrol station were crowded with cars waiting for opening time so they could dash in and out before being spotted filling up On The Sabbath Day. I assumed these were locals as well as tourists trying to make illicit purchases without being spotted by the local Ministers! Tue 03 Aug 2010 11:32:52 GMT+1 MoC http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=72#comment56 skoubhie_dubh (@various) - love your name btw.I know the Wee Frees too well. In general, they trail misery and moaning in their wake in my experience. Epitomised by the Rev. I.M. Jolly.And that lovely habit of locking up children's playgrounds on Sundays still makes me shiver.Like all organised religions, they should be tightly controlled and their shady activities minimised.Apart from that, I hope you had a jolly weekend. Tue 03 Aug 2010 11:10:57 GMT+1 mittfh http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=71#comment55 55. At 11:33am on 03 Aug 2010, I wrote:This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain-oOo-Hmmm. In a nutshell, the post explored the idea that based on the above definitions, followers of any faith could be said to be followers of a sect. Evidently I rambled on a bit too long for some readers' tastes... Tue 03 Aug 2010 11:01:12 GMT+1 mittfh http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=70#comment54 Re: Post 48 (Galahad) and Post 51 (Sid)So theoretically every adherent to a faith of any kind is a member of a sect... and not just the oodles of Christian doctrines (bear in mind Christianity itself started off as a sect within Judaism, as Jesus himself plus the twelve male apostles and unknown number of female disciples [1] were Jews), but to adherents of Sunni Islam, Shia / Shi'ite Islam would be a sect, and vice versa. It may even be the same with the different flavours of Buddhism.I wonder if atheism could be divided into sects? Would humanism count?[1] Well, at least there seemed to be numerous women who followed him around and were mentioned from time to time, that weren't described as being spouses or relatives of the men - five different Marys (mother, Magdalene, mother of James, mother of Zebedee's sons, sister of Martha and Lazarus), Martha, Priscilla, Salome. The apostle's wives may also have been disciples, there was also the adulterous woman, the woman who anointed his feet, the Samarian at the well, and Matthew even mentions Jesus' sisters. Heck, some of them even hung around mourning at the cross while the males disappeared into hiding. Although some interpretations merge the characters of Mary (sister of Martha and Lazarus), Mary (anointer) and Mary (Magdalene). Tue 03 Aug 2010 10:33:05 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=68#comment53 46 - If you go onto someone else's property and start doing anything without their permission then you are committing the tort of trespass which is against the law and therefore proscribed. Are you suggesting that such a law exists? I can't see mention of it anywhere in the articles that others have kindly provided.And thank for the reminder of the different legal systems - I'm well aware. Actually there is precious little difference between them once you get past the syntax and organisation. Tue 03 Aug 2010 10:00:58 GMT+1 GotToTheEnd http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=67#comment52 43, 49.'can't'? Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:47:30 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=66#comment51 50. Alan_N30 Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:39:03 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=64#comment50 Sects. The OED online* has this, amongst others: b. (a) A system of belief or observance distinctive of one of the parties or schools into which the adherents of a religion are divided; sometimes spec. a system differing from what is deemed the orthodox tradition; a heresy. Obs. (b) A body of persons who unite in holding certain views differing from those of others who are accounted to be of the same religion; a party or school among the professors of a religion; sometimes applied spec. to parties that are regarded as heretical, or at least as deviating from the general tradition. c. In modern use, commonly applied to a separately organized religious body, having its distinctive name and its own places of worship; a ‘denomination’. Also, in a narrower sense, one of the bodies separated from the Church. the sects: applied by Anglicans to the various bodies of Dissenters, by Roman Catholics to all forms of Protestantism.*most local authorities subscribe on behalf of their residents - there's no excuse for ignorance. Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:38:20 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=63#comment49 44 - Read where?? Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:31:34 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=62#comment48 47. bankingballs"If language is not correct, then what is said is not what is meant; if what is said is not what is meant, then what must be done remains undone; if this remains undone, morals and art will deteriorate; if justice goes astray, the people will stand about in helpless confusion. Hence there must be no arbitrariness in what is said. This matters above everything."—ConfuciusPeople who don't understand this call people who do pedants. Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:31:11 GMT+1 Galahad http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=61#comment47 41 - Skoubhie_dubhMy Oxford Dictionary gives the primary definition of "sect" as:"A body of people subscribing to religious doctrines different from those of others within the same religion"."Sect" is therefore a perfectly acceptable (and non-judgemental) term for any religious group which does not represent ALL of the followers of a religion.In the light of this definition, I don't believe that any religious group should object to its use. Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:29:53 GMT+1 CG http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=59#comment46 I do wish the BBC would not use the term cement, when they really mean concrete; they even had and engineer doing it in an item on Today about the BP well. This is a silly American habit which should not be adopted by us. Calling concrete, cement, is like calling bakers dough, flour. Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:29:20 GMT+1 skoubhie_dubh http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=58#comment45 #32 Alan_N"I am a citizen of all of this country and it is my right to do whatever I please so long as it is not proscribed by law. Happily, playing golf at any particular time is not seen by the legislature as being inherently injurious to society and so it is not unlawful."Are you sure?Are you aquanted with the local by-laws of the Western Isles?If the local council have banned the use of particular facilities on a Sunday then you would be breaking the local laws if you used that facility surely. If you go onto someone elses property and start battering round your poor wee ball without their permission, are you sure you are not breaking the laws? Also worth remember that your country of 60 million+ has more than one set of laws and our northern 5 million people have different laws to the southern parts of the 'joined up nations'. Be careful that what is allowed in your area is not banned elsewhere.Just a thought ;) Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:24:49 GMT+1 The Intermittent Horse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=57#comment44 More opinion. Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:22:32 GMT+1 Big Sister http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=55#comment43 'Morning Sequin - Sorry to read you're locked out (though I hope that doesn't apply to the cocktail cabinet?).Good to see you here, and will look forward to tonight's programme. Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:21:01 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=54#comment42 34. skoubhie_dubhSorry - it was meant to be ironic. I can't tell you what to do - and you can't tell me. And the Lord's Day Observance Society shouldn't be able to stop people playing golf on a Sunday. Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:20:09 GMT+1 Galahad http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=53#comment41 40 - Alan_NPerhaps Sid broke the rules by attempting to introduce some actual facts? Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:17:55 GMT+1 skoubhie_dubh http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=51#comment40 #31. Sid wrote:"Or, in common parlance, a sect."So does that not imply every religion apart from the very first is a sect. Did the Church of England break away from another mother church? Do the other world religions not have churches that have fractured and therefore all listed as sects under this definition? I keep hearing of all the different types of Muslim faiths. Which is the true one here and which are the sects?Did Christianity not develop from the Jewish faith and therefore is a sect? Is the Jewish faith still the same as the original one or has this ssprintered into 'sects'?If I am wrong here tell me because I am out of my depth at this point but it would look to me like the originals are so diluted as to all be sects by now. Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:17:00 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=50#comment39 Clearly whoever referred the comment is around here somewhere; perhaps he or she could expand a little on why they referred it and in what way it was offensive? Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:16:09 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=49#comment38 38 - Well, well! Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:12:04 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=48#comment37 35. Alan_NAlso interesting that someone didn't want anyone else to read it! Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:11:05 GMT+1 Galahad http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=46#comment36 @ 26, Skoubhie_dubh said:"In Scotland we are about to get another visit from the leader of the Catholic Church. The majority of the population is not Catholic - is this classed as 'imposing his view of the world on others'? Why should we allow him to come and shout out loud in our streets and kiss bits of our ground etc? Should I be getting upset?"Perhaps your answer lies in this statement by the Reverend John Macleod, of the Free Presbyterian Church in Stornoway:"If only 1% say that what the divine law says is that only work of necessity and mercy should be done on the Sabbath it is still that 1% which are correct."Apparently, the will of the majority does not matter - if one person has a religious belief, everybody else has to fall into line... Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:09:25 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=45#comment35 26. skoubhie_dubh"Population of Lewis about 30000Adherants probably about 50-60%Probably the majority is in favour."Don't know how we lost thos one - but anyway, there's some actual data here:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/679007.stm Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:07:51 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=44#comment34 29 - Sid - Very interesting. Particularly the bit where the Minister reveals his distrust of polls in general and then moves on to seek a conspiracy. Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:07:20 GMT+1 skoubhie_dubh http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=42#comment33 #24. Sid wrote:"I don't like you being up at 01:09 a.m. writing on the BBC blog - don't do it again."Jings, Crivvens and Help ma boab. The others are complaining about the Free Church forcing their views on everyone else and heres me being telt tae shut up!Ach well, you have to laugh at somethings or you would be pretty miserable! ;) Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:06:45 GMT+1 skoubhie_dubh http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=41#comment32 #25. mittfh wrote:"Regarding the golf debate. Since golf is a recreational activity, how does that translate as "non-essential work"? I can imagine them objecting to the various people that staff the clubhouse etc., but if you're willing to just turn up and play without making use of the facilities...""non essential work" was used as a term in a previous post to describe the acceptance in the Western Isles or what is/used to be allowed on a sabbath - so no TV, no papers, no making of food which should be laid out the night before, ... etc. The point about the clubhouse and course is that it is located on the Stornoway Trust ground and the Trust are currently adherers to the closed sabbath. If the ground is rented from them and they say they are not willing to open the ground on a Sunday then you either need to rebuild somewhere else or do without. A closed Sunday will be part of their rental agreement."Besides which, the Christian Sabbath was only fixed as Sunday by the emperor Constantine in the fourth century. Although Sunday was the generally agreed upon date to meet and worship beforehand, the Jewish Sabbath was Saturday, and the Gentile world didn't recognise a fixed day of worship. So it was common for people to work on Sunday as per usual, and attend worship either in the early morning (before work) or evening (after work)."Yep! never did figure this out and could never get an answer why the golf club was not closed at sunset on the Saturday, but this is something that has obviously been decreed after the reformation by the church courts in Edinburgh and may well have been one of the arguements that lead to the many fractures in the Church leading to the establishment of the Feee and Free P churches."Oh, and the islanders allow public transport to run on a Sunday, so allowing one form of non-essential work while prohibiting a recreational activity seems slightly hypocritical."You would have to define your interpretaion of 'allow'. The ferries coming are still a very contentious issue and may not yet have come to the final conclusion. The planes arriving are more settled now but it has left a lot of hurt and anger in some areas. There is no bus service on a Sunday. The roads are open but the petrol stations have only been open over the past 10-15 years and is still regarded as new and you will only find this in the main centre - in rural areas they will be closed. If you arrive on a Sunday you will probably find the major hotels will accommodate you, but the small b&b's run by the locals will still be sabbath adherers and will not be open for business. None of the shops will be open apart from the petrol station, and the bowling club, sports centres, libraries, cafe's etc will all be closed. Its a way of life. If you are there it is because you have chosen to be there. If you don't agree don't live there - simples as the saying goes."After all, unless the ardent Sunday golfer accidentally drives his ball into the garden of an ardent believer, the golfer's activities are hardly likely to impact upon the majority of the island's population."But can they be seen playing and therefore poluting the minds of the population who could be swayed into giving up the religious ways. You have to completely change your position to see it through their eyes. It took me nearly 20 years to finally understand what they were saying. I don't agree with them, we will never sit together and be pally, but I understand what they are saying and would miss their 'quaint' ways if it was lost. Anyway, if the drive was that far off target this would be viewed as a sign from god that they were doing something wrong and should return to the old ways. Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:03:51 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=40#comment31 26 - To begin where you ended, no you should not be getting upset.I am a citizen of all of this country and it is my right to do whatever I please so long as it is not proscribed by law. Happily, playing golf at any particular time is not seen by the legislature as being inherently injurious to society and so it is not unlawful. For those who wish to live their lives by their own interpretation of their particular religious book, full speed ahead. But let not your interpretation (and that's what it is, or no Christian would be allowed to play golf on Sundays) be imposed upon me. If we do, then let's not forget that it must not only be Sundays on which golf is banned, and not only on Lewes. We would need to ban it across the country (in case an adherent should be abroad and see someone playing golf) and we would need to ban it on Fridays and Saturdays to avoid upsetting Moslem and Jewish sensibilities.Alternatively, those that believe that it is wrong to play golf should avoid playing it, whilst extending the courtesy to the other 61,792,000 of us of not imposing their views on the majority in the name of their religion.Just a thought ;-) Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:03:00 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=38#comment30 15. skoubhie_dubh"There have been many other splinters - this version of the Free Church is a result of the latest fragmentation from a few years ago."Or, in common parlance, a sect. Tue 03 Aug 2010 09:00:15 GMT+1 cattquinn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=37#comment29 Hello everyone. Sequin here. Many apologies for no AM Glass Box this morning. The system has locked me out! I'm now investigating and hope to have blog contact restored later ..... in the meantime - hello, it's me for one day today while Ed is away.... and hope to be speaking to you later. All the best, sequin Tue 03 Aug 2010 08:59:41 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=36#comment28 26. skoubhie_dubh"Population of Lewis about 30000Adherants probably about 50-60%Probably the majority is in favour."See here for some actual data:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/679007.stm Tue 03 Aug 2010 08:59:03 GMT+1 davmcn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=35#comment27 I thought golf was so boring that it suited Sunday very well. Tue 03 Aug 2010 08:58:05 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=33#comment26 26. skoubhie_dubhMore background here:http://www.u.tv/News/Stornoways-golfers-drive-a-hole-through-sabbath-ban/235c90d5-a9d3-44a4-9a61-2e5e45762114And here:http://hebridestoday.com/2010/08/stornoway%E2%80%99s-golfers-defy-sunday-ban/I particularly liked this bit: "It is, MacDonald notes drily, the only course in Scotland where you get a free game on a Sunday. "If someone isn't a member, we can't do anything about it. We can't even charge them a fee," he said." Tue 03 Aug 2010 08:54:23 GMT+1 skoubhie_dubh http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=32#comment25 #21. Alan_N wrote:"It's not about self determination. It's about imposing your view of the world on others."Population of Lewis about 30000Adherants probably about 50-60%Probably the majority is in favour.Current membership of the Stornoway Golf Club probably about 200What is the problem?He is not trying to stop anyone else in the world playing golf, he is argueing about his own little area of the planet and about keeping the traditions and religious ways of life alive and not playing golf for 1/7th of the week.As a non-religious man I have no problem with this at all, why would anyone who is not part of the community have a problem with it? It is an internal affair to the island.In Scotland we are about to get another visit from the leader of the Catholic Church.The majority of the population is not Catholic - is this classed as 'imposing his view of the world on others'?Why should we allow him to come and shout out loud in our streets and kiss bits of our ground etc? Should I be getting upset? Tue 03 Aug 2010 08:35:18 GMT+1 mittfh http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=31#comment24 Regarding the golf debate. Since golf is a recreational activity, how does that translate as "non-essential work"? I can imagine them objecting to the various people that staff the clubhouse etc., but if you're willing to just turn up and play without making use of the facilities...Besides which, the Christian Sabbath was only fixed as Sunday by the emperor Constantine in the fourth century. Although Sunday was the generally agreed upon date to meet and worship beforehand, the Jewish Sabbath was Saturday, and the Gentile world didn't recognise a fixed day of worship. So it was common for people to work on Sunday as per usual, and attend worship either in the early morning (before work) or evening (after work).Oh, and the islanders allow public transport to run on a Sunday, so allowing one form of non-essential work while prohibiting a recreational activity seems slightly hypocritical. After all, unless the ardent Sunday golfer accidentally drives his ball into the garden of an ardent believer, the golfer's activities are hardly likely to impact upon the majority of the island's population. It's not as though he's planning a death metal concert that would be heard (and the bass felt) throughout the island! Tue 03 Aug 2010 08:34:49 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=29#comment23 15. skoubhie_dubhI don't like you being up at 01:09 a.m. writing on the BBC blog - don't do it again. Tue 03 Aug 2010 08:28:00 GMT+1 skoubhie_dubh http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=28#comment22 #16. redheylin wrote:"Nothing against people practising some religion. Slight problems with a religion that seeks to tell non-adherents what to do."Exactly the point I am trying to make - why do people from afar wish to impose their religious ways on the local population who have lived this way for many centuries and who have chosen to be non adherants to the more modern, easier ways of religion. The arguement works both ways (I assume you implied it from the reverse direction?). They may not have a problem with people practicing catholic or hindu or buddist faiths in their own way, time and location, you would have to ask them yourselves individually, but why should they need to defend themselves against cries of foul from outside their own community. Religious life in the Western Isles is complicated and at present with an aging population it may be that the balance between sabbath and non sabbath keeping is tilting towards the non adherers, but it is a discussion they should have in their own way and time. The Western Isles have changed beyond recogition in the last 25 years. In another 25 years it will no doubt change again very much. It would be sad if the 'non-adherers' to the old ways triumphed just because they want to hit a small ball round a green field for another 16% of their week rather than be happy with the 84% of the time they already have available. I had hoped if the Western Isles way of life failed it would be through a much more significant reason than that."...... to the point that they have not even bothered to read it themselves."Now you show you don't know the Western Isles style of religion. They have read it, they have digested it, they have discussed it deeply, and they understand it. Their problem at times is that outsiders do not understand it in the same way. Your statements are, I guess, from the James VI version. I am guessing because I am not particularly knowledgable about any of the content of any of the religious books, but I would suggest that maybe this is the first area that you would need to reconsider if you wanted to understand what was happening a little better. You need to move back to the old testament which is the scripture of choice. Tue 03 Aug 2010 08:24:40 GMT+1 Galahad http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=27#comment21 15 - Skoubhie_dubhI do not doubt the commitment and beliefs of the Free Church in the Western Isles. I do, however, question any religious person who says "MY religion states that I should not do 'X' - therefore I'm going to make every effort to ensure that YOU don't do it, either."It is this attempt to impose one's beliefs on others which is unacceptable.Christians are required by their church to observe the Sabbath. Their religion does NOT give them the right to determine how non-Christian visitors spend their Sundays. Tue 03 Aug 2010 08:24:18 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=25#comment20 15 - It's not about self determination. It's about imposing your view of the world on others. Tue 03 Aug 2010 07:48:00 GMT+1 funnyJoedunn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=24#comment19 I used to be one of those bible quoting Christians in my younger years. I could quote you chapter and verse in backing up any argument I would put forward. They were right there on the the tip of my tongue. I thought it was a special gift from God I had. I was doin' real good in my early Christian life, it was wonderful...until I met other Christians.They would ask really strange questions like, 'do you belive in predestination or are you one of those 'free wheeling' Baptists'. I became confused - you know. But I was always there with a quote from scripture whenever the situation demanded. Some one would say, 'oh, my mother just died'. I'd be right there, 'oh' 'have you read this, 'the Lord says this about that' and go on to quote a scripture, usually the very opposite of what the person might have needed. Very sensitive. Over time I came to understand that I never read the bible for myself really. I only seemed to read it and then apply it to others...not me really. Thank God I don't remember scriptures that well anymore, let alone quote them to others. Quoting the bible became like taking a wonderful painting, a work of art very special and turning it in a line drawing or black and white photo copy of the original. All the subtle hues and use of colour and texture reduced to just black and white words on the page of a book. meaningless really. People might have asked me, I'm having trouble with this or that and I'd say something like, 'well the Lord says this and the lord says that about your situation'. Now go and have a think about it, read the scriptures prey and ask God, etc, etc. Yet I'd rarely apply such things to myself.Thank God I'm released from all that now. I don't go to church anymore but I don't want to knock it either - another trap I fell into after leaving. I do think having a faith is a good thing (as long as it is faith and not aimless ritual). And I don't know what on earth the established church has to do with the meanings of the teachings of Christ most of the time. Anyway, I could go on and on but,sermon over vicar. Tue 03 Aug 2010 07:26:58 GMT+1 IMOORE http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=23#comment18 14.Asia is a big place, if you are saying that HSBC should give up its profits for the area to Pakistan then you are taking profits that have been generated in other countries, looking at the HSBC web site it looks as if they have 14 branches in Pakistan. I don't think they would have generated that much profit. But I get the feeling your largesse is prompted by envy, with the idea you have the moral right to tell a profitable bank how to spend its money. I don't think you do, nor do I think there is any moral connection that obliges HSBC to spend its profits aiding Pakistan. If there is a need for resources to help Pakistan then it should come from a nation to nation transfer of funds. Of course the problem here is that nikki noodles have got there first who have demanded the expenditure of our tax base and had the money spent with the result there is nothing left there but debts, so now they are attempting to spend other peoples money. Tue 03 Aug 2010 07:08:35 GMT+1 Redheylin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=22#comment17 Ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves...and say, "If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets". Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.(no, he doesn't mean us, or the religious leaders of today. course not. course not.) Tue 03 Aug 2010 01:42:38 GMT+1 Redheylin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=20#comment16 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, and love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Tue 03 Aug 2010 01:34:29 GMT+1 Redheylin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=19#comment15 23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?" (...)27 Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."Nothing against people practising some religion. Slight problems with a religion that seeks to tell non-adherents what to do. But complete incomprehension that they try to make it look like it's anything to do with Jesus, to whom your "righteousness" is about the thing that most screws you up.After 2000 years, churches have not had the slightest success in spreading the word of the gospel - to the point that they have not even bothered to read it themselves. Tue 03 Aug 2010 01:27:55 GMT+1 skoubhie_dubh http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=18#comment14 #13. newlach wrote:"I was very saddened to hear that some Christian sect in the Western Isles (Free Church of Judea Continuing or something) does not want people playing a round of golf on Sundays."Much the same as I felt when I read this utter drivel - very saddened. If you are going to try to ridicule someones religion then at least try to have the minimum of accuracy about it or you are just being bigited. As far as I am aware, for the length of time I lived in the Western Isles, they have no such church called anything about Judea - the geography of Judea is a very long way from here. It will be one of the recognised and established churches that you are referring to - not a sect. Their beliefs are traditional dating back to the disruptions in the Church of Scotland and lead to the fragmentation of the main established church many many decades ago. There have been many other splinters - this version of the Free Church is a result of the latest fragmentation from a few years ago. Research it. It is nothing if not interesting. But they are at least serious about their views and do not want 'modern' activities to disrupt their own cultural way of life - use of Gaelic in church, no music in churches, only psalms to be sung with a precentor leading the congregation and a christian sabbath with no non essential work being done. It's their way of life. It's their choice. It's their tradition.During the election there was a lot of debate about immigration in England and how it was not good for the country in terms of loss of employment, payment of subsidies and social care to incomers and non integration in the use of English as a language. In much the same way the church here are stating much the same but about slightly different issues. Why should incomers and tourists be allowed to change the way that the locals have lived for centuries because they can now travel over to visit. If the locals are quite happy to keep the status quo who are you to tell them they are wrong and they must change on your say so? If you went to any other country on planet earth would you expect them to change their ways for your convenience? "I was also disturbed to hear that the anti-golf minister on the programme attempted to make the issue a Christian versus anti-Christian one when clearly it is not. Hard-working people, Christian or otherwise, should have the opportunity to relax as they wish at the weekend."Who said the minister was 'anti-golf'? As far as I am aware most if not all ministers there have no interest in the decimation of the game of golf in the islands - I know a few who are active players of the game. You may be confused about being 'anti-golf' and 'anti-sabbath-breaking', There is a difference - believe me one huge difference. He is not trying to make a case of 'christian v anti-christian', he is trying to convince about one form of religion v a different softer form of religion - one where the sabbath is observed and kept against one where pubs, clubs and shops are available to confuse and pollute the God-fearing mind. His attitude will be that relaxation has enough time during the other 6 days and that the sabbath should be kept for religious pursuits. His church will probably have 3 services on a Sunday covering both gaelic and English services and his congregation would eclipse in numbers most other denomination in most other churches on the mainland where religion attendance seems to be a dying activity."If golf had been in existence 2000 yeas ago Jesus would have been playing it and would have been performing miracles in the 19th hole!"Are you sure? Are you really sure? Because now you are just coming over as more confused than your previous drivel - was this not the leader of the Christian faith who wanted to keep the sabbath holy? Why do you think he would himself be breaking his own teachings by playing golf before performing at an approximate age of 13 in public houses for an appreciative audience?You said at the start you were 'very saddened'. The 'very saddening' part of your letter is that it was not moderated and stopped from being published with such a vile attack on a religious group you obviously know very little about. To answer the question you are probably waiting to ask - no I am not a supporter of this church. In Glasgow when you say you are an athiest they will ask 'is that a catholic athiest or a protestant athiest?' I am the latter and would not be well received by the minister you so dislike. But, I still stand by his reasons for his thoughts and his right to air them and activly try to keep his sabbath free from outside activities. Would I play golf on a Sunday? Yes, but only on the mainland. Even if it was open in Stornoway on a Sunday, out of respect for the local way of life, I would not be taking part. Tue 03 Aug 2010 00:09:04 GMT+1 nikki noodle http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=16#comment13 IMOORE - @6I guess that to write a sentence outlining albeit briefly the relationship between people who have lost everything, and I do mean everything, who have no shelter, no clothes for their kids, no access to clean water, no food, and virtually no hope except for the generousity of third parties - and a bank that made $11,000,000,000 pretax profit in six months this year so far, with Asia seeing a 15% growth in lending - and for whom the sum I mentioned above (post 2) would be approximately 0.07% of those pretax profits as a donation to those who have lost everything, would have to be one of the most depressing sentences I have ever had the misfortune to be have to write.My sentence would contain the words 'humanity', 'concern' and 'common decency'nikki Mon 02 Aug 2010 22:09:17 GMT+1 newlach http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=15#comment12 I was very saddened to hear that some Christian sect in the Western Isles (Free Church of Judea Continuing or something) does not want people playing a round of golf on Sundays. I was also disturbed to hear that the anti-golf minister on the programme attempted to make the issue a Christian versus anti-Christian one when clearly it is not. Hard-working people, Christian or otherwise, should have the opportunity to relax as they wish at the weekend. If golf had been in existence 2000 yeas ago Jesus would have been playing it and would have been performing miracles in the 19th hole! Mon 02 Aug 2010 21:59:47 GMT+1 Big Sister http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=14#comment11 Oh Fiona, the fickleness of it! ;o) Mon 02 Aug 2010 21:58:54 GMT+1 DebtJuggler http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=12#comment10 This post has been Removed Mon 02 Aug 2010 21:31:32 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=11#comment9 3. jonnieOnly glaring if it might have justified this huge over-use of intrusive state powers ... Mon 02 Aug 2010 20:44:56 GMT+1 annasee http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=10#comment8 Fiona seems to have found a new best friend remarkably quickly after the departure of Rupert...;-) Mon 02 Aug 2010 18:55:56 GMT+1 funnyJoedunn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=9#comment7 Regarding the picture of this thread. For Goodness sake...get a room! Mon 02 Aug 2010 18:54:12 GMT+1 lucien desgai http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=7#comment6 6Vulture and prey. Mon 02 Aug 2010 18:38:52 GMT+1 IMOORE http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=6#comment5 2/Why? What relationship is there between a bank and a country suffering a natural disaster? Mon 02 Aug 2010 18:30:47 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=5#comment4 4. ExpectingtheEnd"9. At 11:43am on 01 Aug 2010, ExpectingtheEnd wrote:This comment has been referred for further consideration. Explain" Mon 02 Aug 2010 18:26:38 GMT+1 GotToTheEnd http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=3#comment3 He is coming despite the floods and its victims.It shows you how worried he is about Cameron's warmongering between Hindus and Moslems.For a fuller opinion seehttp://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/07/our_proudest_year.shtml#P98971158if and when you can. Mon 02 Aug 2010 18:17:53 GMT+1 jonnie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=2#comment2 Poole Council and the spying.There was glaring question that Eddie missed. Was she on the catchment area or not? Mon 02 Aug 2010 17:31:11 GMT+1 nikki noodle http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=1#comment1 This comment is a growing feeling about how unconnected the stories we hear are becoming: one item about HSBC making over $1 billion profit per month so far this year, and another item about UK contributing £5 million pounds to Pakistan for emergency relief.Just once, I would love to stand up and applaud if anyone asked this question to a spokesperson from one of these banks, (and they will all be reporting profits this week) - "will you match the £5 million sterling that the UK government is contributing to Pakistan out of your $billions half yearly profits?" noodle Mon 02 Aug 2010 17:23:42 GMT+1 darkdesign http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/08/pm_glass_box_147.shtml?page=0#comment0 Chris Grayling wouldn't make a moral judgement or allow his personal view to influence the implementation of policy, would he? Mon 02 Aug 2010 17:04:38 GMT+1