Comments for http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml en-gb 30 Sun 01 Feb 2015 01:37:39 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml Serangoon http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=99#comment197 Two Pakistani nationals, Abid Naseer and Ahmed Faraz Khan can't be deported from Britain because it would infringe their human rights, despite their having plotted to kill thousands of Britons in a terrorist atrocity?According to the judge Naseer 'posed and still poses a serious threat to the national security of the UK' and Khan can 'safely be taken to have been willing to participate' in the planned slaughter of innocent members of the public. How can the welfare of would-be mass murderers be put above the human rights of the public to avoid being their intended victims? So now they can stay here, with their teeth still firmly embedded in the hand that feeds them. And we wonder why they come. Wed 19 May 2010 20:58:00 GMT+1 lucien desgai http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=98#comment196 196 Walter mEtETell us about your campaign! :o) Wed 19 May 2010 20:01:18 GMT+1 GotToTheEnd http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=98#comment195 Balls Talking Balls Talking Balls Talking Balls Talking Balls Talking BI have a number of questions about Brown's last threee years particualry over issues of taxation.In the run up to the election naturally we concentrated on what we agreed about.My considered view on Brown will emerge in the course of my campaign.You can get the bloke out of his privileged background...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Balls#Early_lifehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nottingham_High_School http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keble_College,_Oxford...but you can't get the brain deadening effect of the background out of the bloke (:-)Keep demolishing these privileged background kids and taking the confessions of the kids from the right background whose sense of their own inadequacy is the quid pro quo of their success.A Bevan WILL emerge. Wed 19 May 2010 19:48:06 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=97#comment194 175. jonathanmorse"So Clegg wants to scrap those computer records of emails that showed that that terrorist was a terrorist."Oh dear - you should have read my #33 above: "* internet and email records not to be held without reason;*"Hmm, now, how to explain ... Wed 19 May 2010 17:33:52 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=97#comment193 I am ever in your debt! Wed 19 May 2010 17:33:27 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=96#comment192 192. Alan_N"(I don't know how to do those fancy links that Cash Hughes uses!)"Easily learned.;-) Wed 19 May 2010 17:27:28 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=96#comment191 There is a article here http://allpsych.com/journal/iq.html(I don't know how to do those fancy links that Cash Hughes uses!)that attempts to answer your question. It isn't exactly the New England Journal of Medicine, but it cites a number of apparently authoritative sources. The prepenultimate paragraph is relevant and the ones before that list other factors, notably diet and environment. Don’t let some of our more hysterical friends here read the paragraph about the Bell Curve – it might tip them over the edge. Please don’t for a moment imagine that I have any time for Hernstien’s recommendations! ;-)There are a heap of articles on Wiki as well and while I wouldn’t for a moment pray in aid anything on that illustrious website, at least the references can usually be trusted. Wed 19 May 2010 17:19:36 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=95#comment190 189. jonathanmorse"m not claiming that because most people believed that Iraq had chemical weapons, "But you continue to assert that "most people" believed....and that "many" followed the same sequence of thought that you did. Read the link provided to fallacious argument. Wed 19 May 2010 17:13:05 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=95#comment189 188. MadnessOfCrowdsSurely most people already agree....;-) Wed 19 May 2010 17:09:10 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=94#comment188 171, 179 I'm not claiming that because most people believed that Iraq had chemical weapons, Iraq did, rather that a lot of people are now claiming that they knew Iraq didn't have chemical weapons when in truth before we knew different they did believe, as I did. Wed 19 May 2010 17:07:59 GMT+1 MoC http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=94#comment187 Thanks, Alan_N, how big is the correlation? and a reference to the (presumably peer-reviewed) research would be welcome. Wed 19 May 2010 17:06:12 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=93#comment186 141 - MOC - Sorry - I misunderstood. It's a positive correlation but as many here have observed only one apparent factor amongst many. Wed 19 May 2010 17:00:04 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=93#comment185 Absolutely brilliant question, and well pursued! Wed 19 May 2010 16:52:37 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=92#comment184 180 Now there is a move to execute repeat offenders, people who keep using the prison system, perhaps by people who accept that hanging one-off murders is dubious because of the shortcomings of the Justice system.I'm inclined to agree with executing people who are repeat offenders, people who don't reform to our ways, but can I suggest that it be by removal of their vital organs, for organ harvest, in hospital.The sci-fi author Larry Niven wrote some short stories about this idea, when he wondered what might happen if the people liked the regular supply of organs by increasing the range of offences that attracted the death penalty - he was opposed to it but it seems reasonable to me. Wed 19 May 2010 16:50:36 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=92#comment183 177 Surely all laws are made in the UK Parliaments but some are only there to implement EU Treaties, Directives, Regulations etc and I'm sure those aren't up for Clegg's Repeal Broom. Wed 19 May 2010 16:41:46 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=91#comment182 How are the select commitees going to be set up, now that two parties are co-joined. Wed 19 May 2010 16:37:28 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=91#comment181 <RICHPOST><a href="http://www2.fiu.edu/~schriner/masterlistoffallacies.htm"><b>LOGICAL FALLACIES</b></a><BR /><BR />(adapted from Glen Whitman "Introduction<BR />This is a guide to using logical fallacies in debate. And when I say "using," I don't mean just pointing them out when opposing debaters commit them -- I mean deliberately committing them oneself, or finding ways to transform fallacious arguments into perfectly good ones."</i></li></ul><BR />;-) [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]</RICHPOST> Wed 19 May 2010 16:36:53 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=90#comment180 Committees in the US might have more power, they can summon foreign leaders of car moanufacturers, humiliate leaders of BP and a few banks, then their was the House Committee of UnAmerican Activities, but, apart perhaps from the HCUA, what have they achieved over the British system. You may think that backbenchers are puppies but they stood up for themselves over their perks, o.k. that was bad, but they did so so maybe the reason they accept government policies is because the government clears it with them before it announces them ... Wed 19 May 2010 16:35:16 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=90#comment179 176. jonathanmorseOh yes, you reminded me of something that I used to say donkey's years ago and that is regarding referendums ie if you have a referendum regarding hanging the majority would probably be for public executions with the TV broacasting a special nightly slot.Asking the public what laws to repeal means that Clegg does not know what to do, he has already run out of ideas. Wed 19 May 2010 16:35:07 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=89#comment178 "Most people":A variant of COMMON BELIEF or BANDWAGON FALLACY or APPEAL TO POPULARITY This fallacy is committed when we assert a statement to be true on the evidence that many other people allegedly believe it. Being widely believed is not proof or evidence of the truth. Example: Of course Nixon was guilty in Watergate. Everybody knows that. Wed 19 May 2010 16:31:47 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=89#comment177 Why does shrinking Parliament make it more democratic - surely then bigger the Parliament, the smaller the constitiuences, and so the closer MP's would be to their constitiuents. We might not want a bigger Parliament, more MP's, but how would shrinking it help democracy? Wed 19 May 2010 16:31:23 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=88#comment176 Once again we hear Clegg carping on about numbers of laws and yet other people come on the BBC and state that 75% or more of our laws eminate from Europe. So Clegg since you are such a Europhile is it only laws passed by our elected parliament and then scrutinised by our house of lords that are to be removed! Wed 19 May 2010 16:29:24 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=88#comment175 Clegg pompossly claims people will oppose his Repeal Bill for the wrong, unClegg reasons, but the biggest opposition to it will be from those who want us out of the EU, scrap the ECHR, perhaps bring back hanging. Wed 19 May 2010 16:28:52 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=87#comment174 So Clegg wants to scrap those computer records of emails that showed that that terrorist was a terrorist. Wed 19 May 2010 16:26:19 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=87#comment173 Those gunshots didn't sound like what I was expecting gunshots to sound like. Maybe my concept of the sound of gunshots, from films and TV programmes, is wrong. When people witness shootings they often talk as if they didn't expect the sound the gunshots make and seem to me to be treated as idiots for that by the interviewing journalists. Wed 19 May 2010 16:24:03 GMT+1 Lady_Sue http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=86#comment172 Horse@160: hear, hear. Ellis@162: I take your point about enjoying a bit of gossip but what banal things did eg. Tara P-T, Paris Hilton, Peaches Geldof (I can't think of any others off the top of my head but I'm sure there are dozens!) do? They seem to pout a lot. Jonathan@168: thousands of people marched against the proposed war, thousands more knew we were being fed utter nonsense. Think Cash neatly sums up your claim of "most people" @171. Wed 19 May 2010 16:22:57 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=86#comment171 If we're talking about more power to locals and people in general, can we go back to a contradiction in the Tory manifesto where if you want to build a new school you don't need planning consent but planning consent gets more difficult if you want to build housing, to protect NIMBY's. Not sure what's to stop someone building a new school that's shaped just like an estate of houses ...Also NIMBY's don't get more housing built in their locality, good for local democracy, bad if you don't have a home or want to live there, but they might end up with a loud school there, loud during the day and perhaps loud at night if the schools allowed to subsidise its work by being a nightclub. Wed 19 May 2010 16:11:49 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=85#comment170 168. jonathanmorse"if the dossier was sexed up it wasn't by Kelly. [No has suggested it was. He was alleged to have said 'others wanted it' so.... Most people believed Iraq had the gas/biological weapons,...Most people opposed to the war were opposed to us doing it with George Bush.""Most people" don't exist, and if they did, they wouldn't nominate you as their spokesperson. Wed 19 May 2010 16:09:24 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=85#comment169 50 I believe the Tories took the powers to prosecute from the police because too many cases which the police started failled. It was assumed more cases would be successful if the CPS checked the police's work before they started a prosecution. Wed 19 May 2010 16:06:06 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=84#comment168 165. mittfh"News (yeah, right) just in:"Brilliant, but the first one might upset hypersensitive folk...;-) Wed 19 May 2010 16:02:32 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=84#comment167 151, 155 if the dossier was sexed up it wasn't by Kelly. I thought the dodgy dossier was dodgy because a foreign office employee, instead of doing what he was told, copy and pasted in someone else's work into the report and got caught, but I believe the report was essentially correct, if it favoured a certain viewpoint. Most people believed Iraq had the gas/biological weapons, they had used them in the past, Saddam wanted everybody to believe he still had them even if he didn't. Most people opposed to the war were opposed to us doing it with George Bush. Wed 19 May 2010 15:57:41 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=83#comment166 Guess who's on the book of faces! And Twaddle too!The mind boggles. Wed 19 May 2010 15:56:07 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=83#comment165 165 The chap who numbers programme on R4, who Eddie talked to a lot over the election period, got stuck when the volcano went up, he did a check on these claims for his numbers prog and found the figures wrong. Wed 19 May 2010 15:52:18 GMT+1 mittfh http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=82#comment164 News (yeah, right) just in:Cameron and Clegg To Share Same SuitandLeft-wing Brits "growing impatient" while waiting for Cameron to be massively evilMeanwhile, in real news, another news provider has investigated Clegg's statement that his proposed reforms are the biggest since the 1832 Reform Act. Unsurprisingly, they come down on the side of fiction. Back in 2006, they also took a look at the claim of the 3,000 or so new crimes introduced by Labour. The news organisation couldn't find specific numbers, but did concede that many new crimes had been created - although to be fair, a lot were updating / revising existing legislation or introduced in the wake of FMD (so probably served a purpose then, but aren't really useful now - presumably unless there's another outbreak...) Wed 19 May 2010 15:48:30 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=82#comment163 163. MadnessOfCrowds"DaveBoy would look like a big woose if he didn't go for it."It's entirely beyond his control or that of any rational being (not to equate the two). Wed 19 May 2010 15:21:46 GMT+1 MoC http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=81#comment162 IH and CH - I also think they were a diversion but - DaveBoy would look like a big woose if he didn't go for it. He's probably "gagging for it" already to put it typical cameron vulgar sexual lingo. Wed 19 May 2010 15:17:32 GMT+1 Ellis P Otter http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=81#comment161 Lady Sue - I don't understand this oft used phrase famous simply for being famous. in your 158 above.All these people, it seems to me, have done something to draw attention to them, hoever banal, in the first place that is picked up an whirled out of all proportion by the media. It's the proles own fault for buying the magazines to bring some cheer to their otherwise miserable lives. It's the global village that we live in. No worse or better than the gossip that goes around a rural village in darkest Africa with no telly. We're humans and as such we enjoy gossip and watching our fellows slip on bananas. It's as much in our nature as the scorpion's sting is its. Wed 19 May 2010 15:16:54 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=80#comment160 160. The Intermittent Horse"Leaders' debates? With any luck they won't have them! I"Sadly I fear we are plumb out of such luck!Andrew Neil hosted a TV discussion (of journalists, of course) last night and they lurved them almost without reservation. Wed 19 May 2010 15:13:41 GMT+1 The Intermittent Horse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=80#comment159 MoC (157) - Leaders' debates? With any luck they won't have them! I thought that they were a total waste of time and got in the way of debate rather than promote it.The media became fixated by them and they ended up being a contest to see who could look into camera, appear sincere, call questioners by their first name, etc. A proper examination of policies they certainly weren't. They put all the focus solely on the leaders of the parties rather than other senior party members and the policies. The media for years have been complaining about the UK descending into 'presidential' style government and yet go out of their way to promote it by insisting on these debates. Wed 19 May 2010 15:07:53 GMT+1 U14450706 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=79#comment158 151. Lady Sue"Neither country had the right to invade or to start the war(s)."It is direct contravention of UN rules, accepted as a condition of membersship. Wed 19 May 2010 14:55:02 GMT+1 Lady_Sue http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=79#comment157 Sid, I admit I was being contrary. It's just that I do know of several, certainly not overly bright, (now grown up) children of wealthy parents who (sadly) had everything handed to them before being launched into the real world and have since achieved zilch. It can happen that, coming from a wealthy family removes any desire or impetus to achieve. Of course I am generalising but I can think of some very famous (mostly female) faces who regularly appear in glossy mags and social columns who seem famous simply for being famous. Wed 19 May 2010 14:44:01 GMT+1 MoC http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=78#comment156 Assuming for a moment that this ConDem nation thing holds for a bit and the Cleggeron lives on - when it comes to the next election, how will they handle the leaders' debates? Wed 19 May 2010 14:43:23 GMT+1 MoC http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=78#comment155 Wealth and achievement ... hmm... we would need to also put a sign on achievement - as in "positive contributions to humanity" or "vile deeds". I'm thinking my poor old grandmother on the positive side and, ok, let's think, some wealthy, if not Royal, proponent of dodgy Supplementary, Complementary and Alternative Medicine on the negative side. Wed 19 May 2010 14:31:27 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=77#comment154 148. jonathanmorse"So the press descend on Kelly, only interested in him telling them how the document was sexed up, something Kelly knows isn't true or at least that no part he was involved in was sexed up."You mean it wasn't sexed up at all? And that there wasn't any desire 'at the top' that it be? It didn't come to be known as the dodgy dossier for no reason.Face it. We were lied to. Wed 19 May 2010 14:25:15 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=77#comment153 152. Lady Sue"Are we talking another negative correlation here? "Most assuredly so! Wed 19 May 2010 14:20:27 GMT+1 Sid http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=76#comment152 Lady Sue - it's obviously not 100% - but rich parents send their kids to posh schools where they get intensive tuition which makes the most of their innate abilities.I should have clarified that by achievements, I mean educational qualifications. Like getting A-levels in History and French and a BA in Anthropology, Archaeology and History. Wed 19 May 2010 14:18:38 GMT+1 Lady_Sue http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=76#comment151 Sid, I know several (grown up) children of wealthy parents who have achieved very little. Are we talking another negative correlation here? Wed 19 May 2010 14:14:13 GMT+1 Lady_Sue http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=75#comment150 jonathan@148: "Had we known what we know now about Saddam's weapons"We did know. The US government wanted a war and the UK dutifully fell into line. They had to think of a premise, chose fantasy WMD and think the public are stupid enough to believe them. After the war was started and the machinery of economics was brought into play they think we will then forget about the reason they started the war(s) and concentrate on the current situation and use the "we can't possibly leave now, before the job is done" argument. Neither country had the right to invade or to start the war(s). Wed 19 May 2010 14:11:36 GMT+1 Sid http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=75#comment149 Now that I'm back - may I suggest that we could usefully substitute 'achievement' for 'intelligence' in many of the above posts. I'm fairly sure there is a correlation between parents' wealth and their children's achievement. Wed 19 May 2010 14:05:17 GMT+1 Lady_Sue http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=74#comment148 Madness, no, no - it was the "size and sign" bit that had me flummoxed. Cash, thanks for that explanation and most excellent example. Wed 19 May 2010 14:02:15 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=74#comment147 This post has been Removed Wed 19 May 2010 14:00:15 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=73#comment146 145. Lady Sue"what the correlation is please i.e. size and sign?" "e.g. there is a nearly 100% negative correlation between the price of diamond rings and the likelihood of one being owned by an obese poor person. Wed 19 May 2010 13:43:31 GMT+1 MoC http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=73#comment145 Lady Sue - a correlation is a number, a statistic. Probably a formula for it on wikipee if you want to explore. Wed 19 May 2010 13:41:37 GMT+1 Lady_Sue http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=72#comment144 Madness, I think Alan and others have explained it fairly well. When you say "Can you tell me what the correlation is please i.e. size and sign?" what are you talking about? Wed 19 May 2010 13:35:09 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=72#comment143 143. The Intermittent HorseA lot's better'n nowt, innit? Wed 19 May 2010 13:34:14 GMT+1 The Intermittent Horse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=71#comment142 Cash (140) - You probably have a lot to be humble about! :o) Wed 19 May 2010 13:20:47 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=71#comment141 Of course, in the interest of not "talking the market down", there will be little note taken on the main news that the dead cat continues to tumble down the stairs, along with it's footsie friend.;-( Wed 19 May 2010 13:13:54 GMT+1 MoC http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=70#comment140 136 - Alan_N - as it happens, I don't think you've explained it but that wasn't what I was asking. Can you tell me what the correlation is please i.e. size and sign?p.s. sorry to Looternite about the Willetts thing but I'm damned if I know what to do with him. He just hangs around the village green insisting he's a genius. Wed 19 May 2010 13:11:00 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=70#comment139 138. The Intermittent Horse"The whole thing was inspired by Sir Winston Churchill who had promoted the Convention as a means of entrenching certain rights in Europe after the war."Thanks for the clarification, Horse. Thus no claim to authorship, only inspiration, and the same motivation as Grandaddy George's.He was apparently a very humble man, which characteristic I am also proud to have inherited. Wed 19 May 2010 13:07:16 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=69#comment138 Can we have an instant repeal facility so if I'm about to be chargwed with something ... Wed 19 May 2010 13:03:48 GMT+1 The Intermittent Horse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=69#comment137 Looternite (128) & IMOORE (131) - On the contrary, Shami Chakrabarti was perfectly in order in referencing Winston Churchill. The rights set out in the HRA act are taken pretty much directly from the European Convention on Human Rights. The whole thing was inspired by Sir Winston Churchill who had promoted the Convention as a means of entrenching certain rights in Europe after the war. Wed 19 May 2010 12:59:59 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=68#comment136 My 135 report on red meat:http://www.harvardscience.harvard.edu/medicine-health/articles/processed-meats-come-increased-risk-heart-disease-diabetes Wed 19 May 2010 12:48:18 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=68#comment135 moc - David Willets? Glad I got it wrong.As for the correlation, I think I've already explained it. Wed 19 May 2010 12:44:26 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=67#comment134 119 I've heard that there is a correlation of intelligence and the wealth of the parents, although I can't prove it. Supposedly IQ rates in blakes in the US of A is going up just as the wealth of their parents go up. Then again, I've heard/read that the IQ rates of Brits who were living during World War Two was so low they would be classified as mentally subnormal. All of them. So maybe IQ tests are unreliable or the richer your parents are the more learning friendly your home is so the more intelligent you are. Then again having seen kids being brought up, not having them myself, I'm inclined to believe that intelligence develops after you are born however much it is also dependant on your genes. But the key thing is the facts developed from studying actual people. If there is a correlation between wealth of parents and intelligence we must accept that then work out why.I like to watch the ABC News programme BBC News 24 shows weekdays 1:30 in the morning and according to that last night the correlation between heart disease and red meat is between processed meat and heart disease not all red meat, so maybe our assumptions on red meat are wrong. The same might be for intelligence and causes.If there is a correlation between parent's wealth and intelligence, if intelligence is useful, it maybe because of the commitment of parents or learning friendly environment of the home all of which parents can change, whereas they can't change their genes which their children might inherit. Wed 19 May 2010 12:43:58 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=67#comment133 133. The Stainless Steel Cat"if those allegations turned out to be true."Please note that I alleged nothing. It was alleged that I might have.;-) Wed 19 May 2010 12:40:51 GMT+1 The Stainless Steel Cat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=66#comment132 Big Sis (79, 81):I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, but I would not be even mildly surprised if those allegations turned out to be true. Wed 19 May 2010 12:37:58 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=66#comment131 Of course, I forgot to mention that George Mason was my ancestor, and that's probably where I got my intelligence and dee3p humanity...;-) Wed 19 May 2010 12:36:47 GMT+1 IMOORE http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=65#comment130 124.It was a pretty crude attempt by Chakrabarti to curry favour for her HRA by roping in Churchill, it's also likely to cause Chakrabarti grief, for if she is raising Churchill up to an unimpeachable position, then she is also going to have to defend his views on Islam, which wasn't very complimentary. Wed 19 May 2010 12:35:18 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=65#comment129 124. jonathanmorse"Did he write it or merely agree to something others put together?"Mostly the original author was George Mason, who wrote the Virginia Declaration of rights, but it has borrowed from earlier traditions (including Magna Carta) and later thoughts. Churchill had very little input. Wed 19 May 2010 12:33:30 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=64#comment128 How do Liberty get away with equating Pakistan with a state that carries out torture? Wed 19 May 2010 12:28:21 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=64#comment127 124. jonathanmorseI think that Shami Chakrabarti was taking a liberty with quoting Winston Churchill. Wed 19 May 2010 12:28:03 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=63#comment126 If you give power back to the citizen that usually means more power to the rich and to the bully, which is why Tories might go along with what otherwise is the usual Libdem nonsense. Wed 19 May 2010 12:27:17 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=63#comment125 So who's up for repealing the 1832 Reform Act ... Wed 19 May 2010 12:25:45 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=62#comment124 122. MadnessOfCrowdsTo be honest I was hoping for something more enjoyable. Wed 19 May 2010 12:24:49 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=62#comment123 Libeties' Shami said on WatO that Winston Churchil's legacy was the European Convention of Human Rights. Nothing to do with a certain war.Did he write it or merely agree to something others put together? Wed 19 May 2010 12:24:40 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=61#comment122 121. MadnessOfCrowds"there is a correlation between the number of people voting Conservative in a general election and the number of deaths from fatal viruses in the following six months."So we'll be allright in Scotland then! Wed 19 May 2010 12:21:52 GMT+1 MoC http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=61#comment121 Looternite@120 - good man... you win a night at the pub with David Willetts. Wed 19 May 2010 12:17:21 GMT+1 MoC http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=60#comment120 Cash Hughes @118 - lol, you're right.. I should have selected: there is a correlation between the number of people voting Conservative in a general election and the number of deaths from fatal viruses in the following six months. Wed 19 May 2010 12:15:54 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=60#comment119 112 MadnessOfCrowdsI think it is wealth! Wed 19 May 2010 12:14:27 GMT+1 MoC http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=59#comment118 Alan_N - tell me exactly what the correlation is between intelligence and wealth please? I do not believe it is a significant one.Sorry, not eye colour - though a fair guess. Wed 19 May 2010 12:06:06 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=59#comment117 115. MadnessOfCrowds"There is a correlation between the price of diamond rings and obesity too."Not the best example, I fear. ;-) Wed 19 May 2010 12:01:52 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=58#comment116 112 - MOC - of course wealth does not produce intelligence (witness the last thousand years of the monarchy). In our society, generally speaking, intelligence produces wealth because those people have access to the better paid jobs. This of course does not extend to inherited wealth. Intelligent people, generally speaking, have intellingent children because intelligence - not knowledge or education or opportunity or environment - is an inherited trait.Therefore ther is a correlation between wealth and intelligence.Is it eye colour? What's the prize?? Wed 19 May 2010 12:01:35 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=58#comment115 105. The Intermittent Horse"I find the the whole debate on race/sex/heredity and intelligence totally pointless and boring."Indeed. Once one is born with whatever one has, the question should be how to make the best of that - how to maximise the things which aid development and minimise those which hinder or damage it.Elsewhere lies eugenics. Wed 19 May 2010 11:59:58 GMT+1 MoC http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=57#comment114 Yes, Cash Hughes @114, that's exactly why I've phrased it the way I did. It's a non-topic. There is a correlation between the price of diamond rings and obesity too. Wed 19 May 2010 11:58:14 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=57#comment113 112. MadnessOfCrowds"there is NO evidence that wealth produces intelligent children"That is not to say there is no correlation. Wed 19 May 2010 11:52:13 GMT+1 MoC http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=56#comment112 Your next puzzler - how many Scots in the Cabinet? Wed 19 May 2010 11:49:01 GMT+1 MoC http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=56#comment111 Intelligence / wealth - there is NO evidence that wealth produces intelligent childred AT THE MOMENT THEY ARE BORN.However, there is a small prize waiting for the person who can tell me correctly what characteristic has the highest heritability component - i.e. what attribute parents most reliably transmit to their children. Wed 19 May 2010 11:47:16 GMT+1 IMOORE http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=55#comment110 92.Agreed, traitor Heath.But Cleggy is going to get himself into a whole heap of problems comparing himself to Lord Grey and his 1832 Reform Act, for that enfranchised people, where as Clegg's Libdems slavish devotion to the EU has disenfranchised the electorate, and if he wants to rival Lord Grey, he would have to do a rather large U turn on their EU policy. Wed 19 May 2010 11:47:00 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=55#comment109 18 - Looternite - Your response was nothing if not predictable. At no point did I equate knowledge with intelligence. Wed 19 May 2010 11:37:48 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=54#comment108 That's right civil of them. In north Wales they have the death penalty for speeding. Wed 19 May 2010 11:32:46 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=54#comment107 102. mittfh"replaced with the instruction to "drive at a safe speed". Can't imagine that idea getting very far..."Perhaps to the next roundabout...;-)In Germany, there are signs politely asking you to not go faster than 130km/hr, please. Wed 19 May 2010 11:26:12 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=53#comment106 Horse - never doubted it for an instant. Wed 19 May 2010 11:25:49 GMT+1 GotToTheEnd http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=53#comment105 Cash very kindly provided this a few days ago:http://www.ushistory.org/paine/rights/c1-010.htmSeems to me those wise words apply to this Parliament and its silly attempts to bind its own future - so to speak.Clegg seems to recognise that now, resiling from five year fixed terms. Now Parliament can shut itself down anytime, again, as ever.The 55 percent rule will be the next to fall Wed 19 May 2010 11:24:40 GMT+1 The Intermittent Horse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=52#comment104 btw, my link in (72) to the writings of Richard Lynn, doesn't in any way denote my belief in his theories or indeed support for his detractors. I find the the whole debate on race/sex/heredity and intelligence totally pointless and boring. I just remember him as a contentious figure whilst I was at University. Wed 19 May 2010 11:23:20 GMT+1 Alan_N http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=52#comment103 74 Moc - I fear you may be confusing intelligence with either knowledge or education? As for evidence there seems to be plenty of it out there if Google is to be believed. My - aren't we a lively bunch this morning :-) Wed 19 May 2010 11:19:34 GMT+1 Ellis P Otter http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=51#comment102 BBC, Broadcasting House, Portland Place, London W1A 1AAJeepers, I thought everyone knew that! Wed 19 May 2010 11:18:39 GMT+1 mittfh http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=51#comment101 I wonder if they'll extend the crowd-sources of laws to repeal will also apply to penalties?I'd imagine several lobby groups campaigning for less severe penalties for people who exceed the speed limit... apparently there's even one group that advocates the complete removal of mandatory speed limits, replaced with the instruction to "drive at a safe speed". Can't imagine that idea getting very far... Wed 19 May 2010 11:18:07 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=50#comment100 93. Lady Sue"sodark says "I want to send a letter by the postman not email""Indeed. Mea culpa!Melvyn BraggBBCLondonWould surely get there, and probably within a day. The Postal service is in fact very good at such things.;-) Wed 19 May 2010 11:15:15 GMT+1 Cash Hughes http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=50#comment99 84. mittfh"surely the difference is not in raw intellectual ability, but in the opportunities and support they're given to use it. "Aside from the black/white nature of this opening statement, I agree with your post entirely. I repeat (not for the first time) Nature AND Nurture! Wed 19 May 2010 11:10:21 GMT+1 GotToTheEnd http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/05/am_glass_box_107.shtml?page=49#comment98 I think the arguments about IQ are stupid. (:-)This seemed good IIRC on how race IQ changed with acceptability of immigrant groups, and othe fiddles:http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VLuNKpE41KcC&dq=kaplan.+history+of+IQ,+book&printsec=frontcover&source=in&hl=en&ei=Q8XzS7PyNZ-80gSkpqCYDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=12&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCw#v=onepage&q&f=falsePS don't the 'cleverest' people need less training than others? Wed 19 May 2010 11:07:25 GMT+1