Comments for http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml en-gb 30 Sun 03 May 2015 14:06:14 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml GeeDeeSea http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=98#comment86 @ Sid #75"I take it that's a long-winded way of say yes, you made a mistake, the anniversary of the invasion wasn't 21st January, you got it wrong, you bungled it, and now you're apologising to everyone. Don't fret too much old boy - we all make mistakes, it's not the end of the world! Anyway - apology accepted."How sad. No fret. No mistake. And no apology. You're reduced to making things up.....more fabrications. It's all in your imagination - but not real. #;+) Wed 27 Jan 2010 17:49:32 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=97#comment85 85. Big SisterWhat photos!If they are of the historic meeting, then I am the copyright holder. Wed 27 Jan 2010 17:37:42 GMT+1 Big Sister http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=96#comment84 David, perhaps you should charge for these photos ... Wed 27 Jan 2010 17:10:50 GMT+1 Gillianian http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=95#comment83 Davmcn (79) Me too! Me too! ;o) Wed 27 Jan 2010 17:07:15 GMT+1 Big Sister http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=94#comment82 David, a message is winging its way. Wed 27 Jan 2010 16:54:45 GMT+1 GeeDeeSea http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=93#comment81 @SidHere you go. On Monday 21st December, you were announcing to everybody that there was "only one principal council by-election left to be held on this coming Thursday." That would be Thursday 24th December. No doubt on Christmas Eve you were imagining people dashing to polling stations somewhere, in order to vote for the Liberal Democrats, before rushing on to buy their fresh turkey. The thought is still funny, even now.#;+) You post #4http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2009/12/am_glass_box_19.shtml#P90100003 Wed 27 Jan 2010 16:46:40 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=91#comment80 GDC - I think I may have spotted the cause of your confusion. Although you were talking about the US/UK invasion of Iraq in 2003, you seem to be mixing it up with the Gulf War of 1991. Tony Blair and Jack Straw weren't really involved in that one. I hope that's helped you! As I say, an easy mistake to make. well, for you, anyway. Wed 27 Jan 2010 16:43:01 GMT+1 Big Sister http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=90#comment79 I would love that, David. I will see if I can 'make contact' Wed 27 Jan 2010 16:42:38 GMT+1 davmcn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=89#comment78 BS 71, Should I try to see if a couple I have could forward a photo to you? If they can, that is. Wed 27 Jan 2010 16:40:03 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=88#comment77 "It was another Sid bungle."I'm only responsible for my own bungles, not those of other Sids. Wed 27 Jan 2010 16:34:15 GMT+1 GeeDeeSea http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=87#comment76 @ SidWhat was the result of your Christmas Eve by-election, by the way? You never did tell us.#;+) Wed 27 Jan 2010 16:29:59 GMT+1 GeeDeeSea http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=86#comment75 @Sid #75No - not a mistake, just a brief comment. You're like someone who thinks they've found a pot of gold - you can hardly contain your excitement. Calm down. The bombing started on 17th January 1991, Special Forces went in on 21st January and the first phase of the ground invasion started on 24th January. And neither was it a challenge to your - or anyone else's - comments. On the other hand, you chose to challenge my post on 16th December. Now if you're going to challenge the comments of others, you ought be sure of your facts. But you'd got it wrong again. It was another Sid bungle. But instead of accepting your error - you then tried to ...invent....fabricate....the idea that there had been another inquiry. And I’m still waiting for you to say what the other Climategate inquiry findings I had missed.Have you found it yet? Wed 27 Jan 2010 16:25:38 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=85#comment74 GDC @ 65 - I take it that's a long-winded way of say yes, you made a mistake, the anniversary of the invasion wasn't 21st January, you got it wrong, you bungled it, and now you're apologising to everyone. Don't fret too much old boy - we all make mistakes, it's not the end of the world! Anyway - apology accepted. Wed 27 Jan 2010 16:02:30 GMT+1 GeeDeeSea http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=83#comment73 Goldsmith has cooked his goose. Wed 27 Jan 2010 15:36:19 GMT+1 GeeDeeSea http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=82#comment72 #72 continuedAnd if Lord Goldsmith had any doubt about the "intention" of UNSCR 1441 he had only to read what Sir Jeremy Greenstock, the UK UN Ambassador, said at the time: :"Let me be equally clear in response, as a co-sponsor with the United States of the text we have just adopted. There is no "automaticity" in this resolution. If there is a further Iraqi breach of its disarmament obligations, the matter will return to the Council for discussion as required in paragraph 12. We would expect the Security Council then to meet its responsibilities."United Nations, 8th November 2002 Wed 27 Jan 2010 15:35:28 GMT+1 GeeDeeSea http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=81#comment71 Lord Goldsmith sounds quite uneasy in the hot seat at the Chilcott Inquiry, and it would appear he’s dug a bit of hole for himself and Tony Blair. Before today's appearance he was asked several times before he came up with the "right" answer. First time, he said quite clearly that war against Iraq would be illegal. On the next occasion, he said that war without a second UN resolution would be illegal. When asked again, he shifted slightly and said that the "safest legal course" would be to get a second resolution. He’s now said this morning at the inquiry that he finally accepted that there was a "reasonable case" Britain could go to war without a second UN resolution after he returned from Washingtonon Feb 12th 2003. The reason? Having heard the Americans tell him that they would not have approved 1441 if it required a second resolution. So he seems to be referring to ‘intention.’But that’s not the case. The guy who negotiated UNSC 1441 for the Americans at the UN - John Negroponte, US Ambassador to the UN, said at the time it was agreed:“This resolution contains no hidden triggers and no automaticity with respect to the use of force. If there is a further Iraqi breach, ..... the matter will return to the Council for discussions as required in paragraph 12.”No hidden triggers.No automaticity.And if a breach…..it will return to the Council. Wed 27 Jan 2010 15:23:27 GMT+1 Big Sister http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=80#comment70 David, I think I do. Wed 27 Jan 2010 15:15:45 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=79#comment69 62. davmcnIts not difficult to have more hair than Nick Robinson. Most of us more hair than him. Wed 27 Jan 2010 15:04:48 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=78#comment68 61. davmcnMont Blanc pen as if. I don't think they do plastic ball points. Wed 27 Jan 2010 15:02:44 GMT+1 davmcn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=77#comment67 BS 63, If you know what I mean... Wed 27 Jan 2010 14:53:44 GMT+1 davmcn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=75#comment66 BS 63, Who here knows your email address? I know three. Wed 27 Jan 2010 14:46:58 GMT+1 Space_Alien http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=74#comment65 greetings earthfood... it's good to see you fighting over nothing... ha ha ha... he said you said i said she said ha ha ha... Wed 27 Jan 2010 14:24:12 GMT+1 GeeDeeSea http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=73#comment64 @ Sid 58No, unlike most other people on this blog, you frequently make mistakes. Very frequently.And yet, unlike most other people on this blog, you go round trying to detract from, fault-find and nit-pick other people's comments, often because you have not read their comments properly. You really shouldn't be surprised when the tables are turned on you. What's your problem, don't you like it?What was the purpose of this comment from you yesterday? Was it intended to disrupt, provoke, or offend?http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_44.shtml#P91515995 Wed 27 Jan 2010 14:21:29 GMT+1 theotherdaughter http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=72#comment63 DiY @ 3 - silly old computers, they are always making mistakes! Wed 27 Jan 2010 14:18:16 GMT+1 Big Sister http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=71#comment62 David, thank you for all these delicious details ;o) Wed 27 Jan 2010 14:09:17 GMT+1 davmcn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=70#comment61 BS 13, Looter has a lot more hair. Wed 27 Jan 2010 14:07:25 GMT+1 davmcn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=68#comment60 Ln 30, C'mon, I heard that you got a new refill for your Mont Blanc pen just to meet Robinson. Wed 27 Jan 2010 14:04:30 GMT+1 davmcn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=67#comment59 fJd 32, I liked Sewell's Naked Pilgrim TV series. Wed 27 Jan 2010 14:02:47 GMT+1 davmcn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=66#comment58 Sid 58, Maybe, because like me, GDC took your apology for a mistake to be like a politicians answer. Wed 27 Jan 2010 13:57:51 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=65#comment57 GDCIn common with everyone else on this blog (including you) I sometimes make mistakes. I usually apologise and try to clarify. For some reason you are stalking me and demanding that I don't make mistakes. I don't know why. To be honest, I'm not really interested. You've obviously got problems. Wed 27 Jan 2010 13:45:40 GMT+1 Fearless Fred http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=64#comment56 GDC (55) Not a contradiction. I'm using the word afraid here to express regret, rather than fear. It's a common phrase. I'm sure you are aware of it. Trying to score points through sophistry isn't really going to work... Wed 27 Jan 2010 13:43:47 GMT+1 GeeDeeSea http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=63#comment55 @Sid # 54Oh - so you're now saying you made a mistake. That wasn't what you said at the time. You tried to shift your position by saying there had been an inquiry "from longer ago." What shall we call it.....a fabrication, on your part?#;+) Wed 27 Jan 2010 13:39:53 GMT+1 GeeDeeSea http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=62#comment54 @Fearless Fred #52 "I'm afraid that...."So why do you call youself Fearless? Bit of a contradiction, isn't it? Wed 27 Jan 2010 13:32:18 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=60#comment53 Double standards from you, GDC - you're allowed to make mistakes but I'm not. No reason given. Wed 27 Jan 2010 13:31:47 GMT+1 GeeDeeSea http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=59#comment52 @SidI’m still waiting for you to tell me about the earlier Climategate inquiry and the inquiry findings you claimed on 16th December 2009 that I'd missed. You were very quick to challenge my comment on the day - but very slow to support your claim. I'm still waiting.#;+) Wed 27 Jan 2010 13:28:53 GMT+1 Fearless Fred http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=58#comment51 Gillianian (50) I'm afraid that EtE (mac) will only be happy when everyone is constrained in a system where the state limits all persons to a fixed wage, irrespective of what they do (or if indeed they work at all) and where those that he considers to be "unworthy" due to the fact that their parents may have gone to college, are forced to work in the fields, down the mines, etc. As I have pointed out before, this was tried before in the 1970s under the Khmer Rouge, as well as being espoused and implemented to a certain extent by a number of other leaders in the past (Stalin being a prime example). At all times this has led to increased human suffering and collapse of any form of society. Unfortunately, EtE is blind to that, being trapped in an almost religious belief that no one person may be allowed (through their own effort) to better their lot in life. Wed 27 Jan 2010 13:14:32 GMT+1 DoctorDolots http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=57#comment50 Liberal French Imam risks death for backing ban on burkashttp://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/58915,news-comment,news-politics,mob-of-80-muslims-attack-hassen-chalghoumis-mosque-in-paris-suburb-burka?DCMP=NLC-daily&success=1#commentForm Wed 27 Jan 2010 13:00:44 GMT+1 Gillianian http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=56#comment49 Here's the missing r in horizons ;o)EtE (47) I'm a bit confused.When you say "You see how important it is to ask about everyone's lineage when deciding whether they should be toting barges and lif'in' bales" you appear to be suggesting that I should have followed several generations of my family and found work on the canals (they really did!) But then you say that first-generation professionals like me .... are far, far less vulnerable to the charge that they should do manual work, than are second, third, etc generation middle class women"You appear to be letting me off the hook....but do you really expect my daughters and grandaughters to work on the canals? And what about my sons and grandsons? Wed 27 Jan 2010 12:58:42 GMT+1 GotToTheEnd http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=55#comment48 Please report plans for a mass protest on Friday (Blair Blah-Blah-Blay day) at Chilcot.Since they ignored a million demonstrators at the start of the war, and a majority of the population, what would it take for the authorities to arrest Blair for war crimes and crimes against humanity?A citizen's arrest is possible. The crimes are indictable. Is that planned too? Wed 27 Jan 2010 12:57:05 GMT+1 Gillianian http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=54#comment47 When it comes to the subject of ''class'', I also have a foot in both camps. By background, upbringing, accent(!)I am firmly working class, but by profession, income and lifestyle I suppose I'm middle class.I went to a girls Grammar school, which certainly gave me certain pretensions, but at the same time gave me new hoizons and experiences.In spite of us all being treated equally by the staff (at least that was my perception) it was evident to all us pupils who the less well-off and working class were, and who were middle clas and had more disposable money.Due to the efforts of our teachers, my circle of friends and I largely exceeded the expectations of our parents and went into higher education - either Teacher Training Colleges or University and joined the professions. Most of us were the first in our families to do so - in my case not because of our parents' lack of intelligence, but because of lack of money in the household.At the risk of sounding smug, I would call myself well-off, privileged in many ways, and comfortable about where I am and how I got here.But unless I define myself in terms of wealth and the house I live in, I still can't define which class I belong to! Wed 27 Jan 2010 12:45:15 GMT+1 GotToTheEnd http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=52#comment46 8But aren't the genteel middle class poor equally to blame?They never cry out, in fact they often repress it, that the class question that trumps income and wealth, as the fundamental reason for class prejudice, is the way manual labour(horrible jobs) is allocated.So often, the genteel poor hide behind their bohemian poverty and pretend that they are somehow excused from factory work,ordinary labouring etc.And they do it, generation after generation, as people of opinion, artists, poets, writers, musicians etc (You see how important it is to ask about everyone's lineage when deciding whether they should be toting barges and lif'in' bales.)The right of bankster to their bonuses and indeed to a penny over average income and wealth is non-existent, of course. However, consider those banksters from the working classes, with first generation desk jobs (once portrayed in stripped shirts and red braces. They are far, far less vulnerable to the charge that they should do manual work, than are second, third, etc generation middle class women.Genteel poverty doesn't excuse the bougeoisie. Neither does members of the class having acquired some skill in real demand excuse them. A whole tranche of bourgeois culture, in writing, theatre, music etc is in the hands of a caste preserving their positions generation by generation.In education we see whole universities, Oxbridge, Bristol, Durham etc and whole subject areas (the arts and social sciences as a whole) the hereditary seats of bourgeois 'intelligentsia' where they merely replicate their own values (as well of course as a certain radical chic which is supposed to protect them from real work. (Ethically and politically it doesn't)These universities are colonised by toffs and other parasites from the public school system.You see where our manual labour (from cleaners to bin people) should come from, as soon as possible.Those who hold on to their necessary skills and try to exclude others for class reasons can be dealt with too. They are often in mathematics and mathematical sciences. There are so many of them now languishing pointlessly devising stupid algorithms in financial economics, that it seems to me we can reverse the usual hierarchies in education and demand that these illuminati SUCESSFULLY teach our 'underclass' and stop blaming our kids, and lean on those teachers and replace them toot sweet if they fail.Indeed with a proper national eduation programme, internet based, we could probably put all those whose turn it is to labour manually, even in these jealously guarded science and maths areas.Even stories about brief hard times when our ancestors were refugees, or in a war, or unemployed I'm sorry to say, does not excuse us.Capitalism is about income and wealth inequality, of course. But it is also monumentally about capitalists getting other peopel to do the lousy jobs.(Note incidentally, how not even the anti-apatheidt whites in South Africa are still not doing the manual jobs in mining. The whole of the Labour voting working class here were against aparthiedt. Does that entitle them to to the work-avoding life of the white South Africans, one sees lving in luxury and being 'sportsmen', media personalities, authors, actors etc? No! (But their work and the generations of it behind them, does!!!!!! ) Wed 27 Jan 2010 12:44:28 GMT+1 Space_Alien http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=51#comment45 greeting's earthfood... i wrote a little song for lord rees... yes it is boring in space and i probably do have better things to do...aliens coming downhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovf1IrHl3jo Wed 27 Jan 2010 12:26:12 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=50#comment44 re class - wasn't it Alan Clark who sneered at Heseltine because 'he bought his own furniture'? Wed 27 Jan 2010 12:25:35 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=49#comment43 Anne P - I think the BBC certainly bears some responsibility for promoting 'BBC English' at the expense of regional accents. When they tried the weather forecast in different accents, towards the end of last year, they all sounded fairly bland - Geordie lite, if you like. And there are still regional accents that you're unlikely to hear a BBC announcer using - I'm thinking of proper Cockney, though there may be others. Wed 27 Jan 2010 12:20:37 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=48#comment42 While you're here GDC - you never did tell us which invasion you were celebrating on 21st January."45. At 11:20am on 21 Jan 2010, GeeDeeSea wrote:@ Big Sister #43 Banged to rights, I'd say. It's the anniversary of the invasion today." Wed 27 Jan 2010 12:16:18 GMT+1 Anne P http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=47#comment41 Sid (41) I did see a programme a while back about recordings made in the early 20th century before mass broadcast media which was fascinating in terms of what it preserved about different accents. I recently listened again to some recordings made of my grandmother in 1978, who had via a scholarship become a doctor in the early 20th century, and was amazed at how strong her Hampshire accent seemed when as a child I had just heard her as 'English'. I wonder whether accent prejudice was actually triggered by or at least reinforced by the advent of broadcasting and the telephone, both of which tended to magnify accent in their early days (something about the sensitivity of the microphones I think). Wed 27 Jan 2010 12:14:49 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=45#comment40 Looternite - yes; unfortunately no recordings exist ... Wed 27 Jan 2010 12:07:45 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=44#comment39 Joe @ 32 - It was Melanie Phillips - I didn't hear the prog, but I did hear the trailers, and it sounded as if she was rather chastened by what she found, as it didn't match her prejudices. Whether that will make a long term difference to her opinion columns, we'll have to wait and see. Wed 27 Jan 2010 12:06:20 GMT+1 funnyJoedunn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=43#comment38 DD (36)Yes, the fact that his accent dosen't seem to bother him...dosen't seem to bother me. And, I find him quite funny when he refuses to say the names of some northern towns...as if he might become contaminated. I think he might be putting some of that on, thats why I find him funny. I guess its no different to Geordie pulling a strange face at a cockney accent. Wed 27 Jan 2010 12:03:17 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=42#comment37 24. SidDidn't Shakespeare speak with a Warwickshire accent and didn't he write using London English that was in use at the time, that now sounds all rural to our modern ears. Wed 27 Jan 2010 12:00:49 GMT+1 funnyJoedunn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=41#comment36 Looternite (26)Yes, I agree with you. Was it ever thus!? Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:56:40 GMT+1 DoctorDolots http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=40#comment35 32. funnyJoedunn - so do I, I don't hold his accent against him! He's actually a wry, funny man who is quite outrageous at times, and he loves dogs. A freethinker. Where his accent came from I have no idea, but he's clearly stuck with it as much as a Geordie is with his/hers. Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:53:00 GMT+1 GeeDeeSea http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=39#comment34 @ Sid #11 "there's certainly something in our history which has bred this class thing in a way that other countries haven't suffered."Now there's a statement displaying your ignorance. You should have said there is something that is NOT in our history. Italian revolution and wars of independence? French Revolution? Ring any bells? We covered it all in GCSE History. Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:52:22 GMT+1 DoctorDolots http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=37#comment33 Australia's [Labour] government is about to copy China in internet censorship http://www.internetblackout.com.au/ under the guise of protecting children, which it won't. The freedom of the net is clearly felt to be threatening by control freaks everywhere. Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:50:37 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=36#comment32 Joe @ 25One of the reasons English spelling is so odd is that the people who had to write it down weren't the people who spoke it. Imagine a Norman clerk trying to make sense of Anglo-Saxon words! Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:46:35 GMT+1 funnyJoedunn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=35#comment31 Sid (24)The strange thing is, I quite like Brian Sewell, just because hes a novelty. And there I go being all patronising to the middle class...just what I accused them of doing to the working class. Sid I also think part of this debate should be facts like, Stephanie Philips went out to find a benefits scrounger...contrary to popular class opinion...she had great difficulty I seem to have heard in trying to find one, no? Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:44:18 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=34#comment30 DD - re EW - hear, hear! Excellent. Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:43:08 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=33#comment29 9. Big SisterI didn't know Nick Robinson was in Luton.Maybe he was here to help his mate Dave Shamron win Luton South. apparently the Tories are targeting this seat. Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:42:27 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=32#comment28 DD - I believe that in England after 1066 the aristos learnt Latin but spoke Anglo-Norman, while the peasants spoke English. Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:41:36 GMT+1 DoctorDolots http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=31#comment27 25. fjd - good point, probably by a few 'local' words, pointing, and a big stick? Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:40:09 GMT+1 DoctorDolots http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=29#comment26 Wasn't Elizabeth Wilmshurst impressive? akes Blair's appearance all the more anticipated. But will deference win the day? Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:38:31 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=28#comment25 4. funnyJoedunnI don't know if you agree with me but I know people who are self employed electricians or plumbers or plasterers. These people are in fact running small businesses and can be compared to say a theatrical agent.Which of these small business people are going to be invited to a Buck Palace garden party or similar. How many wealthy people invite their Interior designer or Garden designer to the house warming but not the Electrical contractor or the chap that laid the patio. Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:38:11 GMT+1 funnyJoedunn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=27#comment24 (23)So how would one have communicated with the locals? Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:37:48 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=26#comment23 Joe - yes, I know. Have you heard Jeremy Hardy doing 'To be or not to be' in a Brum accent, just like Shakespeare? Posh accents - you're not thinking of Brian Sewell, by any chance?DD - "Probably too simplistic to think in these outmoded terms these days." Agreed - especially if we can transfer from one class to another simply by joining a protest. Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:34:28 GMT+1 DoctorDolots http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=25#comment22 20. fjd. - Earlier than the 18th century aristos tended to speak Latin. It was the international language of science and scholarship in central and western Europe until the 17th century. In England, Latin and Old French were both spoken by aristocrats and the educated. Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:32:51 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=24#comment21 2. Anne PThe fact that you grew up believing that Scotland was a classless society shows that the middle classes of Scotland were more discrete. My family in Scotland say that there are public schools in Scotland and many middle class families send their issue to English public schools.Class in England is shown by accent but other countries indicate class by other methods. The most usual is Money, India of course have a Caste system that is even worse. Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:29:52 GMT+1 DoctorDolots http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=22#comment20 wgite??? White I think. Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:26:19 GMT+1 funnyJoedunn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=21#comment19 Big Sis, I agree in general with all your points. Sid, About accents. This so called queen's English and posh accents are not natural. In fact it was right up until, I'm not exactly sure, perhaps the eighteenth century that aristocrats spoke with regional accents. Elocution is probably more of a Victorian thing than deep rooted. When you think about it, what a silly thing it is to want to change the way you would naturally and quite validly speak in the way your vocal chords have been formed by regional dialect and accent? Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:25:46 GMT+1 DoctorDolots http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=20#comment18 16. Sid - everyone becomes underclass to the police when they take to the streets. 'Decent' middle-class people wouldn't dream of doing anything so unseemly. My point is that the state/ruling class have the police 'force' so no longer need to personally kill uppity peasants.In many regards there is a porous dividing line between working and middle classes; is a person who works for a living using their mind less working class than someone who uses their hands? Don't they both use their minds and their hands? What defines working class? I consider myself working class, having worked all my life and owning no property, but I am also middle class in taste, attitudes, education, and brain work. I think the old boundaries were more defined, less so now since computers have created many more 'wgite collar' workers, who think of themselves as middle class despite having to slog away all their lives, more than likely on longer hours than their 'working class' parents. Many think 'home ownership' makes them middle class, yet they struggle to pay off debts that will dominate their lives and make them vulnerable if they ever lose employment. While the 'real' middle class have always owned their homes and pass them down to their children along with the antiques, shares and other wealth the family have accumulated over generations. They are the ones who worry about death duties.Probably too simplistic to think in these outmoded terms these days. Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:25:06 GMT+1 DoctorDolots http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=19#comment17 15. Too true. It's a while since UK strikers were deliberately targeted and shot as South Africans were on demonstrations, or imprisoned for years for organising. I wouldn't compare the two, the racist angle adds a lot to the violence. I think one man died during the miner's strike, and that was accidental rather than the aim of the police, but these things can happen when a squad on horses is charged into a crowd and people's heads are routinely wacked with big sticks. Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:12:56 GMT+1 Big Sister http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=18#comment16 Sid, of course they were and I should have picked up on that point in my reply to DD. As someone who has walked many a mile in protests, I can vouch for that ;o) Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:11:44 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=17#comment15 DD @ 14Your suggestion that none of the protesters you mention were middle class is both curious and unhelpful. Wed 27 Jan 2010 11:09:01 GMT+1 Big Sister http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=16#comment14 14: It's a valid point, particularly considering the violence during the miners' strike, and recent behaviour to which you've referred. However, it would be an insult to the black South Africans to draw a complete parallel between what we've witnessed here and what has happened in SA. What IS important is to remember how badly things went there and for our law enforcement agencies to learn from this - and that the Courts here need to be vigilant in that regard. Wed 27 Jan 2010 10:50:42 GMT+1 DoctorDolots http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=14#comment13 8. Big Sister 'they don't resort to violence to repress the underclass' tell that to the underclass! ;-) It's called the Police Force, and is used against striking underclass, stop the city underclass, climate change underclass etc. Don't see the middle class being held in holding areas [kettling] for hours http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/03/g20-protests-police-tactics, beaten with batons and shields or locked up without charge. The violence is used when the underclass gets ideas above itself. The police only have limited resources when it comes to tackling crime. Wed 27 Jan 2010 10:40:44 GMT+1 Big Sister http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=13#comment12 12: I was imagining something much more sinister, David - and wondering if they were related in any way ;o) Wed 27 Jan 2010 10:39:31 GMT+1 davmcn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=12#comment11 BS 9, They probably both had a 'window' available, so did lunch. Wed 27 Jan 2010 10:36:49 GMT+1 Sindy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=11#comment10 Anne P - there's certainly something in our history which has bred this class thing in a way that other countries haven't suffered. They have different divides in France and Italy - but they're definitely less snobbish about accents than we are. And I don't think they attach the same cachet to private schooling. Wed 27 Jan 2010 10:31:38 GMT+1 DoctorDolots http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=10#comment9 6. Not to mention the invisible Celts of course. Wed 27 Jan 2010 10:30:18 GMT+1 Big Sister http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=9#comment8 7- Nick Robinson (or so he claimed to be) was in Luton yesterday and was dressed as a wealthy businessman. Do you think Looternite has something he's keeping from us, David? ;o) Wed 27 Jan 2010 10:28:47 GMT+1 Big Sister http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=8#comment7 Joe (5) your comment is spot on. I am reminded of the situation in South Africa during the apartheid years where the economy depended upon the labour of the black majority yet they were not only repressed in the most horrific way but also struggled to exist on paltry wages. In a way, I see the overpaid bankers (and others who believe they have some God-given right to receive grossly inflated salaries) as no better than the white minority during that period, the only difference being that they don't resort to violence to repress the underclass. Wed 27 Jan 2010 10:27:34 GMT+1 davmcn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=6#comment6 What class divide? They let Looter and me into the same hospital. Wed 27 Jan 2010 10:23:51 GMT+1 Anne P http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=5#comment5 fjd (5) of course I don't think you're having a go at me. It's a debate I've always found interesting, partly because I stand with a foot in both camps - a working class Scots father (heavy industry, weaving, and I grew up in a mining village) and a mother whose family although not now wealthy could trace their roots quite literally back to the Norman Conquest. And although it may seem tenuous I do sometimes wonder whether historically England still reflects that divide between Norman rulers and conquered Saxons. Wed 27 Jan 2010 10:15:31 GMT+1 funnyJoedunn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=4#comment4 Anne P (2) The class divide has always been out in the open for me. I face it everyday being one of the underdogs. However, I am not uneducated or incapable...I just refuse to trade my values for the sake of money. Yet, I still belive I have a valid claim on the wealth I have helped to produce in my MY country. What did the lottery salaried Bankers and all the other hangers on produce that was so valuable? I'm not having a go at you, just trying to be part of the debate. Wed 27 Jan 2010 10:01:35 GMT+1 funnyJoedunn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=3#comment3 Looternite, Anne P (1) and (2)I have spoken on the class divide often on this blog, often being pilloried for it when trying to convey some home truths. And this is what most people find so distasteful...facing the home truths. To just limit the class divide to qualifications, money, who has power, etc, is to really miss important realities. I beleive its as much about values, allegiances, cultural and faith backgrounds. To limit the debate by saying, to bridge the gap between the classes and the disparity of wealth and opportunity, all those below must adopt the same values and route to opportunity as those above, (i.e. we all must become middle class if we want to get on). Equality should just be because we exsist. It shouldn't be based on 'you to can have it if you adopt my middle class values and become like what I am. I suspect this is what is being asked of the so called 'lower echelons' when middle class (and they all are except Dennis Skinner) politicians espouse that its about education. Harriot Harman said "it takes generations to bridge such gaps between the wealthy and the poor". Yes, but it only took one term of her government to widen that gap than ever before. And herein, lies a problem. For the most part, we only have hypocrites trying to teach and preach at us what is best and good for us. There are millions and millions of people on council estates who have values, a view on life, a reality that is just as valid as anyone else's...will we hear an authentic voice form them in this debate? Apart from the usual patronising pat on the head, feeling sorry for them in their little lives usual display from the class dominated media in Britain. I will go on all day to on this....Joe. Wed 27 Jan 2010 09:56:39 GMT+1 DiY http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=2#comment2 PM may want to have look at this?From The Chartered Institute of Taxation. The Inland Revenue should be doing more to warn people about wrong tax codes - with 25m being sent out this year there are bound to be more errors than usual.The Chartered Institute of Taxation is calling for a big advertising campaign to warn people to check new codes and put more resources into dealing with queries from the public.The Revenue admitted some wrong codes had gone out and apologised. In other news hundreds of thousands of injured and retired armed forces pensioners have received letters warning them that their pensions will be taxed at 20 per cent. The mistake is also being blamed on new Revenue computers.More info is available here Wed 27 Jan 2010 09:34:34 GMT+1 Anne P http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=1#comment1 Looternite, I'm glad the subject is well out in the open. As a Scot who grew up believing Scots society to be classless (probably a naive and not entirely correct assumption!) I was very struck when moving to England in my teens by how obviously class divided it was. I thought then, and still think that it has its roots in the education system, and the employment 'at the top' of 'people like us', that is to say people who went to the same schools and to Oxbridge and who mix socially. Is a genuine meritocracy the only way to change things? Wed 27 Jan 2010 09:23:28 GMT+1 Looternite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/pm/2010/01/am_glass_box_45.shtml?page=0#comment0 Perhaps it is time for PM to discuss in depth the class divide and how we can close the gap.At least the grease can be removed from the lower rungs, so that the people at the bottom are not disadvantaged. Wed 27 Jan 2010 08:53:28 GMT+1