Comments for en-gb 30 Sat 31 Jan 2015 17:39:31 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at davmcn G 55, I won't comment on it, then. Fri 15 Jan 2010 10:56:12 GMT+1 lucien desgai 54 GillianianAs Looternite often points out class discrimination remains a serious and pervasive problem in this country but I sometimes feel that people (not Looternite!) tend to over-simplify the issue on the blog. In an economic sense - being unemployed and dependent on benefits - I am the lowest of the low, social class 'E', yet...Although my upbringing was relatively humble ... I went to university, read the Guardian and (crucially!) listen to Radio 4; so aspects of my lifestyle and outlook are undeniably middle class.We need to develop a more sophisticated notion of class (than the A to E scale) and a better understanding of how class really interacts with power and wealth. Fri 15 Jan 2010 10:31:14 GMT+1 davmcn DD 21, Wow, snow melts into water. And I'll bet water turns into ice when frozen, and steam when boiled.I voted for Chris Huhne. Fri 15 Jan 2010 10:26:58 GMT+1 Gillianian Sorry - my last comment was directed at funnyJoedunn. Fri 15 Jan 2010 10:08:14 GMT+1 Gillianian By profession, I'm a teacher, but by my background, I'm working-class, brought up in a council house. How would you define me and many of my similarly-placed colleagues? Fri 15 Jan 2010 10:05:51 GMT+1 Sindy Horse - I just posted a couple of examples of what I found ... Fri 15 Jan 2010 10:04:01 GMT+1 funnyJoedunn CG understood.I should have said, many feel that doctors and other middle professions have aways been aduqautely paid compared to the working class. Fri 15 Jan 2010 06:31:49 GMT+1 Crataegus Monogyna Joe, "many feel that doctors and the other middle class professions have always been adequately paid compared to working class professions."Isn't "working class professions" an oxymoron? Fri 15 Jan 2010 01:21:30 GMT+1 The Intermittent Horse Sindy - I'm afraid I just don't believe the figures that you are quoting. They don't tie up with quotations that I have seen on the internet and most of those are 2 or 3 years old. From what I gather, doctors in the UK are paid much more than their counterparts in the rest of Europe. There are also many more doctors per head of population in most other European countries. I think that we should be able to draw some conclusions from that. Fri 15 Jan 2010 00:49:43 GMT+1 pithywriter Could we have a sign that anyone on the PM production team ever reads these comments..... I just wonder... Thu 14 Jan 2010 22:36:42 GMT+1 pithywriter This idea that the EU allows doctors and other hospital staff without adequate language ability to practice where they like in the EU sounds like baloney to me: 'it is EU law' suggested a BMA spokesperson on BBC London today). Yet my French friend today assured me that such a situation re poor language skills would not be tolerated there. So what the heck is going on here that the NHS has to take docs and others from the EU (and third world) to work in our hospitals here? How come there are surpluses available for our use overseas but not here? or is it that there are more sick people here? Come on EDdie get your reseearchers onto it. All last week the Beeb were perpetuating a myth that if you cleared your pavement of snow you would be liable for someone who may slip there. But a personal injuries lawyer on local London radio put paid to the myth saying it was baloney - just like the doctor/languages myth? It is more likely the NHS gambling as usual with our lives and employing regardless.Ms Pithy Thu 14 Jan 2010 22:34:11 GMT+1 Sindy Wikipedia: "However, a full time GMS or PMS practice partner can now expect to earn around £110,000 before tax, while a salaried GP earns on average £74,000."Needless to say, the Daily Mail has come up with some higher figures ... Thu 14 Jan 2010 22:31:43 GMT+1 Sindy 2009: The average salary for a Gp in the UK is: £63,688Job profile for a Gpfront line, first point of call for non-emergency care to list of registered patients during hours 8 am to 630 pm mon to friday, also coordinator and holder of medical records to same list Thu 14 Jan 2010 22:29:09 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse It may be that we're both wrong on Doctors' pay - I don't know where #39 fjd gets his figures, I understood that GP's were paid a fee per patient but that there are some places where GP's are employed on presumably equivalent rates, e.g. the Doctors in A Very Peculiar Practice and at Bristol Uni: gives a higher pay than I was expecting, but not as high as fjd claims.I don't think they're overpaid or underpaid. Costs of living increassed without the pay of NHS and school staff going up and Labour have increassed them so they can afford to live the lives of those who had the same education but chose to go into the private sector. I think that's a good thing even if it makes us realise by how much cost of living has gone up and how much better off those who have done well in this world are. Thu 14 Jan 2010 21:24:14 GMT+1 lucien desgai 43 realjacquesSorry, but it is not correct for the poster of #31 to say that it is a 'deliberate mistake' to describe this doctor as German. That post was arguing that Ubani's ethnic origin negated his nationality.Ubani is a German national who was practising medicine (albeit disastrously) in the UK by virtue of being a registered doctor in Germany. Thu 14 Jan 2010 20:51:40 GMT+1 realjacques 31 and 33You are both correect.Daniel Ubani, a German national of Nigerian origin, is believed to have been practising medicine as a GP and surgeon for almost 23 years. According to his website, he specialises in cosmetic surgery and anti-ageing medicine. Thu 14 Jan 2010 20:37:50 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse Re my 32, it's offensive that that elderly couple died in the cold but it's offensive to me to blame the state when the state has no power, no right, to intervene. Unless and until the state can, and is adequately funded to be able to, act in an elderly couple's best interest rather than what they want, e.g. force them out of their lifelong home into a care home/sheltered accommodation, and unless and until the state, the taxpayer is compelled to pay for this even for people who can afford to pay, the elderly will have to choose for themselves and it's nobodyelse's fault if they get it wrong.We get this with the homeless, the unemployed. They might be fulfilled in a job they don't want, but they prefer to wait for the job they want. Thu 14 Jan 2010 20:25:28 GMT+1 Lady_Sue Horsey, please do the maths for me... Thu 14 Jan 2010 20:25:15 GMT+1 The Intermittent Horse Doctors in the UK earn considerably more than doctors in France. The number of doctors per 1000 population is much higher in France than in the UK.Therefore ... Thu 14 Jan 2010 20:14:54 GMT+1 funnyJoedunn Yes, your facts were wrong. the average pay of a GP in 2007 wasn't 100, was 110,000. I guess the ten grand takes care of the equipment then. In the same year well over a thousand GPs earned double that figure. I just read it on line. But if you think they are poorly paid thats fine. I happen to disagree. I do think most of them do a marvelous job though. Thu 14 Jan 2010 20:11:28 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse How many doctors do you know with the lifestyle you describe? I know of none so my facts are more plausible than yours. Thu 14 Jan 2010 19:59:14 GMT+1 funnyJoedunn 36 Get your facts right...rubbish! Thu 14 Jan 2010 19:54:19 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse Out of the £100 000 they have to pay their staff and fund their kit. They're take home will be reasonable but not that much. However, if you're ill, surely you want the best and don't want a misdiagnosis. And you want them to work all the hours God sends! Thu 14 Jan 2010 19:48:33 GMT+1 funnyJoedunn That should of course be offensive. Thu 14 Jan 2010 19:47:38 GMT+1 funnyJoedunn Jonathanmorse (28)Average pay of a GP 100,000 per annum. I could afford a decent car on that, pay the kids school fees, live in a large house on the outskirts of most towns, get a regular holiday each year, never have to work weekends, and never beyond 6.00 pm if I choose and have plenty of time off during the week to run a profitable family life.To the vast majority in this country, they are RICH!Your (32) is just offencive! Thu 14 Jan 2010 19:41:32 GMT+1 lucien desgai 31 harry-wrongNo, he is a German GP. That is why he was able to practice in the UK. Thu 14 Jan 2010 19:16:37 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse This post has been Removed Thu 14 Jan 2010 19:08:42 GMT+1 Henry Gordon Who is this 'German' or 'European' doctor? Is he not a Nigerian? I remember noting this deliberate mistake at the time the incident was first reported some time ago. I also remember a lot of gratuitous stuff about how easy it was to mix up the doses of the drug and how they were packaged in a confusing way etc- getting in the instant excuses, and for what? It struck me as odd at the time, but then the answer came to me - can you work it out? Thu 14 Jan 2010 19:00:08 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse All the money lent to the banks accrues interest payable to the next government, presumably the Tories, so they're not getting the money for free, but pulling it in now will just cause another recession. Or is revenge on the bankers worth costing more people their jobs and homes? Thu 14 Jan 2010 18:54:48 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse Both Vince Cable and William Hague avoid being party leader. Thu 14 Jan 2010 18:47:23 GMT+1 Jonathan Morse Doctors aren't overpaid, but I'd rather they were well paid for all that they do. Also I've met graduate doctors and they could easily double their pay moving out of medicine - the skills and abilities you need to become a doctor are much needed in better paid jobs, e.g. the City. Why should they give up their nights for poor pay. Most junior docs want to stay in hospitals with predictable hours, support services (childcare, other doctors to chat to at lunch) and if you are going to achieve anything as a doctor it will be as a consultant in a hospital not as a GP. Also many hospital docs work 9-5 then go home. If we want GP's and can only have volunteer GP's we have to pay them adequately. Last time this came up the Tory press could only come up with one well paid doc supposedly because he drowe a Merc but it was an old merc, the sort used as taxis in oldish films. DR's ought to be able to afford new cars, I'm not saying pay them like bankers and they're not. Thu 14 Jan 2010 18:40:43 GMT+1 DoctorDolots In London in the sixties our doctor, knowing all his patients and they knowing him, would answer night time calls himself - phone by the bed - and if it was serious [and no reason why anyone would ring him in the night if they weren't certain it was as they knew it woke him] he would turn up with his pyjamas under his clothes, hair unbrushed, do his job and then go back to his bed. Middle of the night emergencies with children were treated immediately, and perhaps lives saved.Doctors appear to have managed to get a pretty good deal for themselves in the intervening years and not just in much improved salaries; no longer the night time call outs, now it's all multi-million pound health trusts with swish, impressive health centre and a locum service hundreds of miles away. The call centre which handles calls could be anywhere in the world. If a locum is found to be necessary, they eventually turn up sans notes or any knowledge of the patient or the problem. Or there's a drive to the nearest hospital A&E. That's progress. Thu 14 Jan 2010 18:21:40 GMT+1 funnyJoedunn Looternite (18)Point taken. But many feel that doctors and the other middle class professions have always been adequately paid compared to working class professions. There are those who do belive some of these profession ARE overpaid...which can also lead to complacency and sloppy practice. People can tend to get the idea that they are indispensable. And what do they say about what ultimate power brings...? Thu 14 Jan 2010 18:10:54 GMT+1 DoctorDolots My 21. I should have put: '...having to do it rather than say how they would may be more than most in the party really want or feel capable of. Thu 14 Jan 2010 18:10:00 GMT+1 DoctorDolots Ingerland swings like a pendulum doBobbies on bicycles two by two Thu 14 Jan 2010 18:07:02 GMT+1 Sindy Thu 14 Jan 2010 18:06:15 GMT+1 jonnie Lovely programme, especially liked Nigel's jazz slot. However I'm curious as to Simon the weatherman..... Where on Earthis Ingerland? Thu 14 Jan 2010 18:02:26 GMT+1 DoctorDolots 10. davmcn - I mentioned the flooding after all the snow melts here some time ago. It's nothing new, we all know snow melts into water. The libdems blew the only chance they will probably ever have when they chose a shiney Blair-clone over Vince who could have turned them into an electable alternative when the other two were totally trashed as far as the electorate were concerned. But then actually having to do it rather than say how they would may be all most in the party really want or feel capable of. Thu 14 Jan 2010 18:00:45 GMT+1 GeeDeeSea The Lib Dems should have kept Vince Cable as their leader. Brown swatted Clegg down effortlessly yesterday at PMQ's. They ought to get themselves a 'proper' leader. Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:56:53 GMT+1 Sindy Plenty of background here: Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:56:03 GMT+1 Looternite #11. funnyJoedunnI didn't say "overpaid" I said, well paid.I feel that remuneration packages have been skewed since the 1980's. We need to ensure that essential, skilled members of our society are properly rewarded.Did you hear the BBC defend the payments they make to the likes of Ross. I think that we have been led to believe that "loads a money" is the way to gauge a persons worth, I personally do not. It was said by an old Tory that Thatcher knew "the cost of everything and the value of nothing". The only true thing I have ever heard a Tory utter. Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:55:36 GMT+1 GeeDeeSea Hah - the BBC soon got that DEC Appeal telephone number out. And in your summary of Haiti's problems over the years, didn't the US kidnap their democratically elected President a few years ago? Or aren't you allowed to mention that? Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:53:22 GMT+1 mrs-nostalgie I have asked here and in other forums in the past, 'How can bankers get bonuses before the tax-payer has been refunded?' Preferably with interest, for an unauthorised loan.From your report on Obama's statement, it seems that they weren't told to pay us back.Why on earth not? How can they be deemed to have made huge profits, when these profits seem to be the same money we 'gave' them? Surely some provision was made at the time for repayment of these loans? Are we really going to continue to have the huge deficit, purely because we gave the Banks billions, and then forgot to issue an I.O.U?Unbelievable. Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:53:11 GMT+1 Crataegus Monogyna Aye, Joe, but we've been the beneficiaries of El Gordo's masterful management of the economy, haven't we? Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:52:37 GMT+1 newlach This business with the McCanns in Portugal is very rum. Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:51:49 GMT+1 funnyJoedunn Barack Obama gave me a reason to vote in tonights program when speaking on the banking system...sadly, I'm not American... Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:50:42 GMT+1 Crataegus Monogyna I see we're allowed to mention this disaster appeal effort.... Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:48:29 GMT+1 funnyJoedunn Looternite said,"I would rather doctors were well paid, than poorly paid as I want the best".Wheres the connection that paying (with all due respect) large of amounts of money necessarily gets the best? the banks and polititians you mean?Looternite, this is why we are one of the poorest socially divided societies on the planet. The fact that everything boils down to how much money you get. I just don't see the connection in reality between competence and remuneration. So what you are saying is that unless we fork a privately educated pay packet level we should be willing to accept a diminished service. Sounds a bit too much like banking to me. Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:46:17 GMT+1 davmcn Sindy 9, DD will blame the Lib Dems. Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:45:40 GMT+1 Sindy davmcn - and when the water's all gone, there'll be droughts ... Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:43:24 GMT+1 pithywriter Eddie: ask the scamming bankers if they are going to donate their rip off bonuses to those poor poor Earthquake victims? As usual, I suspect it will be the poorer people who will donate the biggest percentage of their personal income - as is the case the world over, not just in UK....Pithy Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:41:59 GMT+1 dazzlingrosebud In referance to the coverage of Thati in PM tonight,while I understand that the content was flagged up before the report as being possibly upsetting I am appaled that the coverage began at the site of a collapsed school,this came across as pure sensationalism",and theres a foot" ,well DUH! your standing on a collapsed building,what do you expect.Are the people of Britian considered stupid ,I for one can imagine the tragic scenes there and do not need it dramatised like this ,what moved me though was the poor woman who pulled back a blanket revealing a loved one and with no money to bury the body,this did enlighten me but not a seemed as if that section of the programme was to drum up donations so desperatly needed,if so than say so. I expect more from radio 4's coverage ,please do better in the following day's ,when there are more aid-workers on the ground I want to hear positive stories,were not that thick skinned are we? I can imagine the tradegy all too clearly and I hope so can my fellow human beings. Dazzlingrosebud Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:41:17 GMT+1 davmcn Flooding predicted due to melting snow. You just can't please some people. Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:40:19 GMT+1 Sindy Eddie - did I hear you say you wanted more 'Upstairs, Downstairs' music? Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:38:57 GMT+1 pithywriter EU Doctors flying in and out to fulfill UK shortages because NHS has always trained the least amount of docs and staff per head of population, preferring to poach staff from overseas as it is cheaper. (including third world's) that's medical staff of all levels...... This was going on when I was a young nurse 30 years ago, also at that time it was almost impossible to get into medical school without a father who was a doctor - and as for women almost nil!Eddie::: Why why why why can't you get to the fundamentals of this please and the unethical nature of it. There are 5 million brits on long term benefits also thousands of young people umemployed after uni. Why can't some of them be trained up in 'cross over' courses?As to the EU allowing docs without language skills to practice here and in EU, my French friend in Paris laughed out loud at the idea that such a thing could happen there - so what is the truth about this... please find out for us as it has implications for all of us.This doc was 66 years old with a record - so what is the back story here? I fear we are only getting the 'sexed up' dramatic side of the story as usual. Pithy Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:36:00 GMT+1 funnyJoedunn #1Did I see a documentary not so long back where it was revealed that a doctor from Germany doing a weekends cover in the 'English' NHS earned in access of 5,000 pounds per weekend. No wonder all the 'wackos' want to get a thumb in the cake! Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:33:42 GMT+1 Looternite #1. bright-eyedwendymThere is an EU "Work Time Directive" and sure, the history of the NHS has always led to doctors and consultants having a certain clout when it comes to negotiating.I would rather doctors were well paid, than poorly paid as I want the best.Compare with the BBC and "stars" like Jonathon Ross. Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:33:38 GMT+1 bright-eyedwendym Surely the problem with the out of hours GP service was caused by a very generous settlement made by John Reid when he was health secretary. They were comprehensively outclassed by the doctors' union and agreed to a settlement which included restrictions on hours. This led to doctors from many other countries having to be employed very quickly to 'cover'.It's not surprising that the haste led to errors. Thu 14 Jan 2010 17:26:48 GMT+1