Comments for http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html en-gb 30 Wed 23 Jul 2014 02:51:40 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html roy smith http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=99#comment763 To tout British democracy to other countries as the way to go, is hypocritical. The British people have been trampled underfoot by progressive governments. The introduction of a vast surge of immigrants over the last half century has changed the cultural core of these islands. No referendum has been asked of the country. Not a murmur of a question whether we agree with the introduction ... they just do it. The new Foreign Secretary shows his terrifyingly embarrassing ignorance of the Middle East could be on a level with his understanding of the likes and dislikes of the core grass roots people of the British Isles. Fri 11 Feb 2011 07:49:19 GMT+1 Tony of Britain http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=99#comment762 736. At 8:33pm on 10 Feb 2011, RON HUTCH wrote:Some one on here mentioned our free elections.Our clapped out so called free elections especialLy the last one.Where the government received about a quarter of the votes.Then ended up with a massive majority.Spent its time on social engineering and so called progressive politics.With our wonderful so called democracy we ended up paying 480 billion a day in interest alone.I do not think that even GORDON BROWN could call that a free election.-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_Where you there for the election? I dont think so as you seem to have no idea what happened. Fri 11 Feb 2011 07:37:58 GMT+1 John Mc http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=99#comment761 ----------------------------------------------------------------------Whatever your "experience", it doesn't appear to have provided much in the way of the tolerance and compassion for your fellow man that one might expect from a self-professed Christian, judging by your posts here. But never mind that, what's the Big Man really like ?Your rebuttle of Kentuckers beliefs is sad to read. You promote freedom of speech yet you deny him and even mock him, "What's the big man really like?"Really if you knew anything you may understand that God is a personal connection and so is different to each person. Self professed Christians are not perfect but then agai neither are athiests or any self professed religion.The choices we make are ours as faulted personalities striving to be better. It is not Gods fault if some nutcase shoots someone else it is that shooters twisted personal behavior that is to blame.Personal choice is what we all have, he believes, you do not, neither of you is perfect so there it is. Have you considered that your bveliefs might be there just to challenge others to make then think about their belief and therefore justify and strengthen it?Each person is anothers angel or demon (Daemon menaing angel), we are two sided we have a forgiving side and one that would kill to protect our family. One does not sit well with the other. So personal choice is the gift or curse we have. Religion is control but faith is something better is what we all look for even in our crummy politicians.If you do not believe in anything then good that is your choice. Others who do well that is their choice, remarks such as yours are ignorance and intolerance of others. Fri 11 Feb 2011 07:32:47 GMT+1 John Mc http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=99#comment760 439. At 3:12pm on 09 Feb 2011, moreram wrote:413. At 1:53pm on 09 Feb 2011, Kentucker wrote:357. At 10:43am on 09 Feb 2011, Dr Llareggub wrote:354. At 10:23am on 09 Feb 2011, moreram wrote:----------------------------------------------------Usual anti Israeli/ anti American rant. Yawn. Israel has to defend itself and holding on to land, being prepared to use its military strength, is an unfortuunate but legitimate means of survival. -----------------------------Whilst the present Israeli state may well be secular, the land was given to Abraham approx 4000 years ago. Known as Caanan and the Promised Land at the time of Moses and no matter the time of absence for most Jews ( not all )the land remains in divine covenant to the Jewish people from time immemorial.The present Palestinians are in fact relatively newcoming immigrants,whose antecedents are mostly from Syria, and are therefore Syrian Arabs. Even the name Palestine is derived from the name Philistine, given to the land during the Roman occupation at the time of Christ.Unfortunately you are wrong in your dates as the Egyptians Kings record the land you speak of in the 7th Century BC as belonging to the Sea peoples who originates from the Greek Islands the were the Philistine peoples. They took the land, mainly Gaza from the tirnbes that were there, Canaanites and Samaria are mentioned.The ssyrians in the 14th Century BC, Syrian Arabs as you so rightly claim, emerge as the powerful peoples of Mesopotamia, now Irag/Iran again Arabs.I trust the Egyptians records as accurate and valid, Josephus speaks of Palestine as a Tax district to rome as does Herodotus but neither mention the Jewsih nation.Davids reign in Jerusalem started about 1200 bc long after the return of one of the 12 tribes of Abraham originally through Isreal, Abrahams son. The Abrahamic line produced variuos religious sects one of which later became Islam the other Yahwehists (Jewish).Read Josephus and Herodotus and review Egytian records of the centuries mentioned and then you will be more enlightened.The problem today you can compare to two very abrasive chemicals, mix them and they go pop, sit them side by side and neither will be diluted. There needs to be a third agent to allow a solution but that is not us in the west. Fri 11 Feb 2011 07:20:41 GMT+1 vexed voter http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=99#comment759 In light of D Cameron speech i Germany I think it is a bit rich for W Haigue and the Tory Party to lecture any other country about Democracy.The Tory Party are at present applying the Animal Farm dictate 'some are more equal than others'.Both Labour and the Tories have become like each other and so epitamise the last page of Animal Farm. Fri 11 Feb 2011 06:59:52 GMT+1 Bob Smyth http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=99#comment758 704. At 3:46pm on 10 Feb 2011, abraham wrote:*695/IGNORANCE WILL LEAD US NO WHERE .-------------------------------------------------------------------------A government of Egypt based on the ideology of Islam and the strictures of Sharia will take its population 'nowhere' positive. Unfortunately, once established, any so-called 'democracy' in Egypt will be unable to remove it. Fri 11 Feb 2011 06:57:34 GMT+1 Challis http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=99#comment757 For all the whingeing about British democracy on this board, it seems to me all the Egyptians who were disappointed yet again, would give their eye teeth to have something comparable to it in Egypt right now. Fri 11 Feb 2011 03:16:03 GMT+1 MrWonderfulReality http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=98#comment756 704. At 3:46pm on 10 Feb 2011, abraham wrote:*695/IGNORANCE WILL LEAD US NO WHERE .================================No where is somewhere, maybe the place is called "Ignorance is bliss"Sounds like you've been there & maybe still are. Fri 11 Feb 2011 01:33:06 GMT+1 Icebloo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=98#comment755 750. At 11:54pm on 10 Feb 2011, Cobbett_Rides_Again wrote:It would be very nice to have a bit of representative government here in the UK. -------------------There is if you are rich. Fri 11 Feb 2011 01:05:52 GMT+1 Icebloo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=98#comment754 If he's so interested in their country let him stay there and let him take Cameron, Clegg and the whole useless clown coalition with him. PLEASE. Fri 11 Feb 2011 01:03:30 GMT+1 Nickjg http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=98#comment753 While we have a government with a smaller majority than Hitler, propped up by a party of unprincipled power junkies and run by a vacuous PR man and a bunch of chinless wonder millionaires, we can hardly preach to the world about democracy. Fri 11 Feb 2011 00:36:50 GMT+1 MrWonderfulReality http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=98#comment752 Should the UK promote democracy? Yes, Londinium might be a good place to start because cureently there it is based on the principles of an egg & spoon race, which is probably why we end up with governments with egg on their face & everything they touch & do starts to smell a bit eggy & nasty. Fri 11 Feb 2011 00:21:08 GMT+1 Dave http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=98#comment751 Democracy? Even the Irish were forced to vote twice until they came up with the "right" answer. Fri 11 Feb 2011 00:10:31 GMT+1 Dave http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=98#comment750 What role should the UK play in promoting democracy?Democracy should start at home. For a start, they could get the ball rolling by letting us have our say over EU, immigration and taxation. Fri 11 Feb 2011 00:01:06 GMT+1 Cobbett_Rides_Again http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=98#comment749 It would be very nice to have a bit of representative government here in the UK. Thu 10 Feb 2011 23:54:50 GMT+1 Magi Tatcher http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=97#comment748 738. At 9:19pm on 10 Feb 2011, CornwallCoastPath wrote:"Everyone over the age of 18 had the opportunity to vote at the last general election for a party who promised a referendum on the EU - UKIP. The fact that they didn't get a single MP indicates that this issue isn't as important as some people like to believe." (Magi Tatcher, 637)I don't think (but I'd be happy to be corrected) that UKIP promised a referendum at the last election; they promised EU withdrawal without a referendum.Election results can be interpreted many ways, depending on one's predilections. In the 2005 general election, the 3 main parties (and perhaps some of the smaller ones) all promised a referendum on the European Constitution. That means that a huge majority of voters were in favour of a referendum on said Constitution - hardly consistent with the idea that EU matters are only of interest to a minority.Have a look at this BBC opinion poll from a couple of years ago:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/the_daily_politics/7949104.stmThat clearly shows a very large majority wishing to be consulted on matters EU. And it also shows a majority in favour of Britain leaving the EU - so support for withdrawal is by no means confined to UKIP voters.If there is a very large majority of voters who do want to leave the EU then all they will have to do is vote UKIP at the next general election and they will get their wish. Thu 10 Feb 2011 23:20:23 GMT+1 bankofenglandorthodox http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=97#comment747 Yes, with democracy we wouldn't be doing this now. Not sure about forcing it down peoples' throats ( a bit undemocratic I might suggest) but at least let people know there is an alternative.I can only draw a parallel with my own experience when attending a Catholic junior school and only being made aware of the R.C.view of life. When moving on to a state Grammar School I was made aware of other belief systems which previously I had no knowledge of.I was informed sufficiently to arrive at my own decision in relation to religion/belief which in the same way that people who are appraised with regard to democracy can make theirs. Thu 10 Feb 2011 23:10:49 GMT+1 lordBanners http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=97#comment746 A MAJOR Mistake which actually HAMPER fledgling Democracies, is the Immediate insistence/imposition of "Rights" which Aspiring Countries simply cannot Afford.Developed Democracies will participate in the EGO-Stroking exercise of Funding "Rights" Orgs as condition for Foreign Aid, for criteria which they themselves were Incapable of dealing with at that stage of their development, then Criticise Junior Democracies for not Providing what Mature Democracies still STRUGGLE or even FAIL to provide in their own countries.There is a HUGE diff between Lending a Helping Hand, and MEDDLING.Truth is, the Tunisia - Ben Alis, and Egypt - Mubaraks couldn't have LOOTED their Countries of BILLIONS without COMPLICITY from those Countries where they Stashed their ILL-Gotten BILLIONS.Other truth is, with these EMBEZZLERS out of the way, the Treasury should be THAT much better off.Personally, if I had the say in a post Mubarak Egypt, I'd look upon the Suez-Canal as much a National RESOURCE as German Engineering or US Technology, and charge Accordingly.With at least One-Eighth of ALL Global Trade passing through the Suez-Canal, it doesn't take rocket science to calculate that a REASONABLE Toll for Use & Upkeep of that Canal would YIELD more than the Trojan-Horse of Foreign Aid, which is proven to Encourage CORRUPTION to Donors' Benefit.Suez-Canal SAVES over 9,000(nine thousand Miles around treacherous Horn of Africa).THE Constant on Planet Earth, is that of IMPOVERISHED or DEPENDENT "Brown" Landlords who Own ESSENTIAL Resources or Services: from Oil, Gas, Gold, Diamonds, Timber, Spices, Chocolate, Fish Stocks, Suez & Panama Canals, and it's NOT by Accident or Co-Incidence.US selling Weapons to Taiwan was a Direct response to China signing to build an Iran Refinery, and Taliban objections to the Afghan pipeline for Turkmenistan Oil/Gas is because US refuses to allow them their own Refinery to "process" Royalties."Blood" Diamonds only became an issue after Canada started mining diamonds in the Arctic.Congo's dominance at Cocoa production is Economically MEANINGLESS despite a Global CRAVING for Chocolate.Not only are OWNING Essentials economically Meaningless to those Countries, but they are Constantly DESTABILISED by Insurgencies with Expensive WEAPONS supplied from Foreign Interests. Rebel groups NEVER lack for Weapons, Ammunition or even Uniforms.There is NO Logical reason why LIMITED Seasonal Countries Systematically Out-Produce TROPICAL Nations for FOOD. Witholding Farm-Machinery is a deliberate strategy which Chinese Development "Partnerships" is changing. Before receiving more US Bombs than was dropped by all opponents in WWII, Cambodia harvested 3(three) Rice Crops annually.With Changing Weather patterns, there is a RUSH on by Developed Countries to LEASE Land in Poor Tropical Countries for Food Production, with Machinery of course. Some are just too Indebted to say NO. Hugo Chavez' strategy of buying up IMF Debts for Venezuela's neighbours and purging his Country of Foreign Dominance is not as hair-brained as Predators would have us believe, the man is Ahead of the rest. NEW & IMPROOVED Colonialism is on it's way back with even LESS Responsibility to the LandLords than before.On the other hand, casual examination of European Countries show that NONE lack for Comfortable conditions despite being defunct of Resources and DEPENDENT on Imports for ESSENTIALS.Having lived on four Continents, I can attest that it is definitely NOT for Lack of Effort that Brown Nations with Resources are Impoverished. Are they ALL THAT Stupid, like some Brown Genetic FLAW? I don't think so, because whenever given the OPPORTUNITY, these same folks mostly overtake their European counterparts despite having to Work for LESS.I am convinced this ODIOUS status-quo is a CONSPIRACY to preserve Racial Supremist doctrine by ANY Means.Also, that the Primary Means is CORRUPTION via Foreign Aid and IMF, WB STRATEGIC Lending without ACCOUNTABILITY: i.e. Lend One Hundred Million to build Infrastructure which NEVER gets built, but the money DISAPPEARS and Population is saddled with a Hundred Million DEBT with Interest COMPOUNDING.And is why CORRUPT Politicians ALWAYS settle in COMFORTABLE Exile in Developed Countries. The money always find it's way back to source.Above is WHY Developed Countries NEVER look to their own IMF or WB for Solutions, they are geared strictly for Economic ENSLAVEMENT.Proof IS in the pudding, China & India:- The only two Developing Nations to go into Self-Imposed Isolation, emerged That much further ahead than the rest, due to LACK of Outside Meddling, hence NO Insurmountable DEBT.I look for Cuba and N Korea to do similar. Poverty is by far preferable to DEBT they couldn't hope to repay, and Neccessity is the MOTHER of Invention - UPSIDE of Sanctions. Thu 10 Feb 2011 23:02:07 GMT+1 DPStL http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=97#comment745 742. At 9:54pm on 10 Feb 2011, tc wrote:487 ....Daaaa...Iain......Have a cup of tea!.....I get the feeling that you give the SAME answer to ANY set question.Let's think about this.....Democracy is not a myth, BECAUSE when you tap in your answer to this forum...you are doing the kind of tangible thing that millions of others around the world CANNOT do.....but would love to be able to do........think China, Russia, Iran, Burma, Tibet, Algeria..etc etc .......you know I could go on.....But strangely you, me and a few others can do this in the UK...and also in that fascist place!!!! the USA!!! Doesn't that make you feel kinda.....superior????? Pity those poor, poor people around the world who have not discovered our kind of.......in your words ...'fascism'. --------------------------------Colourfully well put."The grass is always greener" comes to mind. Thu 10 Feb 2011 22:41:35 GMT+1 Phosgene http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=97#comment744 743. At 10:03pm on 10 Feb 2011, Kentucker wrote:"Having read a lot of your stuff Phosgene I endorse all that the Doc says - your posts are boringly pedantic, argumentative and often rude"----------I would never accuse you of being pedantic but you do the other things.If the Doc ignored me, I would not be able to show how much rubbish he was claiming. He likes it. And so do you. And you're both ruder than me! Thu 10 Feb 2011 22:26:28 GMT+1 Cronkist http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=97#comment743 What sort of Democracy is this where the Mass Media are used by the Government as a tool to vilify selected sections of Society prior to making them the subject grossly unfair Cuts? Where Newspapers are either too frightened of, or sympathise so strongly with the Government as to make them completely unreliable reporters of current affairs? Where News, while not exactly censored, is so selectively reported as to be downright misleading? The 'right to be heard" is always the first thing to be denied when Democracy is under attack.God forbid that we should be so blindly arrogant as to try and influence any Country with this corrupted travesty Democracy! Thu 10 Feb 2011 22:16:29 GMT+1 Leviticus http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=97#comment742 This post has been Removed Thu 10 Feb 2011 22:03:06 GMT+1 tc http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=96#comment741 487 ....Daaaa... Iain......Have a cup of tea!.....I get the feeling that you give the SAME answer to ANY set question. Let's think about this.....Democracy is not a myth, BECAUSE when you tap in your answer to this forum...you are doing the kind of tangible thing that millions of others around the world CANNOT do.....but would love to be able to do........think China, Russia, Iran, Burma, Tibet, Algeria..etc etc .......you know I could go on.....But strangely you, me and a few others can do this in the UK...and also in that fascist place!!!! the USA!!! Doesn't that make you feel kinda.....superior????? Pity those poor, poor people around the world who have not discovered our kind of.......in your words ...'fascism'. Thu 10 Feb 2011 21:54:59 GMT+1 Superlad http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=96#comment740 726. At 6:42pm on 10 Feb 2011, Saoirse wrote:Yes..You Brits should declare a Republic and becomecitizens instead of being subjects!____________________________Agreed, unfortunately I'm a minority on this subject. There are way too many royalists in Britain! Thu 10 Feb 2011 21:49:49 GMT+1 Dave http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=96#comment739 I think that democracy is OK, but here are obvious benefits from other forms of government. Take Mussolini, as an obvious example, he at least got the trains to run on time, something that sucessive Conservative, Labour and Lib-Con Alliance governments, and Bob Crow, have failed to do. Thu 10 Feb 2011 21:33:29 GMT+1 Phosgene http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=96#comment738 This post has been Removed Thu 10 Feb 2011 21:22:51 GMT+1 CornwallCoastPath http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=96#comment737 "Everyone over the age of 18 had the opportunity to vote at the last general election for a party who promised a referendum on the EU - UKIP. The fact that they didn't get a single MP indicates that this issue isn't as important as some people like to believe." (Magi Tatcher, 637)I don't think (but I'd be happy to be corrected) that UKIP promised a referendum at the last election; they promised EU withdrawal without a referendum.Election results can be interpreted many ways, depending on one's predilections. In the 2005 general election, the 3 main parties (and perhaps some of the smaller ones) all promised a referendum on the European Constitution. That means that a huge majority of voters were in favour of a referendum on said Constitution - hardly consistent with the idea that EU matters are only of interest to a minority.Have a look at this BBC opinion poll from a couple of years ago:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/the_daily_politics/7949104.stmThat clearly shows a very large majority wishing to be consulted on matters EU. And it also shows a majority in favour of Britain leaving the EU - so support for withdrawal is by no means confined to UKIP voters. Thu 10 Feb 2011 21:19:39 GMT+1 Inglenda2 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=96#comment736 Saoirse wrote:Yes..You Brits should declare a Republic and becomecitizens instead of being subjects!-----Just like the citizens of Germany? Work until the age of 67, so that the bills of half the world can be paid with tax payers money, while in the countries being supported retirement starts at 55 and the bosses get golden-handshakes after leading companies into ruin.The western world is not democratic, it is run from behind the scenes by capitalists. Kings, dictators or presidents, there is little difference. Thu 10 Feb 2011 20:47:25 GMT+1 RON HUTCH http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=96#comment735 Some one on here mentioned our free elections.Our clapped out so called free elections especialLy the last one.Where the government received about a quarter of the votes.Then ended up with a massive majority.Spent its time on social engineering and so called progressive politics.With our wonderful so called democracy we ended up paying 480 billion a day in interest alone.I do not think that even GORDON BROWN could call that a free election. Thu 10 Feb 2011 20:33:29 GMT+1 justin de shed http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=96#comment734 Possibly not quite the right time, but why shouldn't he go to give support for a democratic alternative. After all we have far more experience of it than just about every other country on the planet. Maybe it's not perfect but just look at the alternatives. Thu 10 Feb 2011 20:31:53 GMT+1 RON HUTCH http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=95#comment733 In a country where the last government spent its time turning us into another EAST BERLIN.Where most of the unemployed were given government jobs to snoop and pry into our lives.Unelected nobodies had more power than the MPs we supposedly voted for.If you were a mate of the PM you got the job then became a LORD.Before we go preaching to others how about a voting system where at least most of the votes count.We also have second chamber that are responsibble to the public.Not a waste bin for failed polititians ex-union barons dodgy city types.Whenever i hear our political gasbags talk about democracy it makes we roar with laughter. Thu 10 Feb 2011 20:24:57 GMT+1 moreram http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=95#comment732 Hopefully the Egyptian army with its links to the US hasn't done a deal to hijack the revolution or that this is just another ploy of Mubarak's. What I have seen so far has been inspiring and the Egyptians seem to be heading towards a more meaningful future with real opportunity. Good luck to the Egyptians and thank you for the inspiring lead you have given oppressed people all over the world. Thu 10 Feb 2011 19:49:05 GMT+1 U14368420 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=95#comment731 This post has been Removed Thu 10 Feb 2011 19:45:54 GMT+1 killcrash http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=95#comment730 "Politicians in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" Thu 10 Feb 2011 19:35:31 GMT+1 Neil http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=95#comment729 First of all they should try it at home. The USA and the UK bleat on about democracy when realistically, it’s a choice between 2 political parties. In this country all of them are from a social elite and many the product of Eton, Harrow then some Oxbridge university. By the way, the chances for a poor person to get into any university are decreasing by the minute. So a rich social minority oppresses the majority and gets all the breaks just as they have throughout history.... that’s democracy, a sham! Thu 10 Feb 2011 19:24:51 GMT+1 Phil http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=95#comment728 "Definition of democracy I learned at school. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what is for lunch. Not exactly a fan."Did they also have time to discuss the alternatives? Did they then go on to explain that none of them actually work? Thu 10 Feb 2011 19:00:21 GMT+1 Lenispal http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=95#comment727 717. At 5:12pm on 10 Feb 2011, david wrote:Reply to Dr Llareggub at 703.Apologies for the obscurity of my final point 5.I was trying to find a light way of saying how sad it is to read so much cynicism, pessimism and negativity on HYS. Scepticism and optimism seem much healthier attitudes.I don't understand what you mean by 'I believe in the ordinary people' - how does that belief of yours relate to the way we live our lives? What should we be doing that we may not be doing? What are we letting others do for us that we should be doing ourselves? -----------------------------------------Sorry, I was distilling a very long thesis. Part of it was developed in E.P Thomson's The Making of the english Working Class, but I doubt if the moderators will allow any further rope....Just to get this through....I do hope that the Egyptian demonstrators will achieve their objective to achieve democracy and that the American government will not interfere with this process. Thu 10 Feb 2011 18:43:13 GMT+1 chiptheduck http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=95#comment726 Should the UK promote Democracy?The government needs to understand what the word means firstly. Thu 10 Feb 2011 18:43:13 GMT+1 Saoirse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=94#comment725 Yes..You Brits should declare a Republic and becomecitizens instead of being subjects! Thu 10 Feb 2011 18:42:59 GMT+1 Challis http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=94#comment724 At 3:38pm on 10 Feb 2011, abraham wrote:*691/ DEATH CAN'T TOUCH A PROPHET .MOSES IS WATCHING AND HIS BLESSINGS ARE WITH THE MASSES AS HITHERTO . ____________________________________________Instead of having him watching, it would be better if you could persuade him to post a comment or two on this blog. We'd all be interested to read his thoughts on this topic. Thu 10 Feb 2011 18:12:19 GMT+1 Count Otto Black http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=94#comment723 Capitalist democracies are dreadful forms of government.Unfortunately there isn't a better form of government that works with human nature at the moment. Thu 10 Feb 2011 17:56:19 GMT+1 Leviticus http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=94#comment722 708. At 4:02pm on 10 Feb 2011, Challis wroteCould just 2 people [Adam and Eve] have produced nearly 7 billon offspring in only 6,000 years, the age of the Earth according to the bible?//////////////////////Bear in mind that the population of the earth, apart from 8 people, was wiped out by the world wide flood after approx 2000 years. Which I might add, before the howls of derision arise from the Dawkinistas, has been found recorded in the history of many ancient peoples.I'm not a mathematician but the maths do add up.2000 years ago, at the time of Christ, the population of the earth was 300 millionIt required only 40 years after 1950 for the population to double from 2.5 billion to 5 billion. This doubling time is less than the average human lifetime. The world population passed 6 billion just before the end of the 20th century. Present estimates are for the population to reach 8-12 billion before the end of the 21st century. Thu 10 Feb 2011 17:56:11 GMT+1 Phosgene http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=94#comment721 This post has been Removed Thu 10 Feb 2011 17:55:11 GMT+1 Hastings http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=94#comment720 If you are going to promote democracy you should at least make sure that your own society is properly democratic.That is only possible with proportional representation for MPs, an elected second house, and better understanding of coalition government (basically, not treating voters as idiots, as the government does currently).You must also enshrine into law human rights - and that includes living up to the high standard of rights allowed under European law, including votes for ALL citizens over the voting age, even if they are in prison.I dont understand why people are against the ECJ and the European bill of human rights. What is it about fairness in society and having an institution that gives the ordinary citizen a legal voice that the UK government is so against?You start to think that they are not that interested in democracy at all. Thu 10 Feb 2011 17:52:07 GMT+1 This is a colleague announcement http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=94#comment719 I see no reason why Hague, if he observes the usual standards of diplomacy, should not put the UK Government's POV in as many countries as will hear it, whether I personally am of that view or not. What possible reason could there be for a democrat to say otherwise? Thu 10 Feb 2011 17:48:59 GMT+1 Lenispal http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=93#comment718 Yes and no Thu 10 Feb 2011 17:20:19 GMT+1 Shaunus in Poole http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=93#comment717 ABRAHAMGIVE YOUR KEYBOARD THE DEMOCRATIC RIGHT NOT TO SHOUT. PRESS THE CAPS LOCK KEY. THUS allowing your letters the choice to be big or small. Thu 10 Feb 2011 17:14:52 GMT+1 david http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=93#comment716 Reply to Dr Llareggub at 703.Apologies for the obscurity of my final point 5.I was trying to find a light way of saying how sad it is to read so much cynicism, pessimism and negativity on HYS. Scepticism and optimism seem much healthier attitudes.I don't understand what you mean by 'I believe in the ordinary people' - how does that belief of yours relate to the way we live our lives? What should we be doing that we may not be doing? What are we letting others do for us that we should be doing ourselves? Thu 10 Feb 2011 17:12:16 GMT+1 Shaunus in Poole http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=93#comment715 It doesn't feel that we do democracy in this country for more than 2 weeks every 4 years. I hope tunisia find the right solution for the majority of their people. If it doesn't suit our democracy then so be it. I wish them good luck. We usually teach democracy with a gun, as kenny everett said - They want peace, we want peace, but if they don't want peace we will round them up, put them in a field and bomb the ........ Thu 10 Feb 2011 17:09:57 GMT+1 kebabmon http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=93#comment714 Not until our oun democratic system is free from corruption, self interest and protectionism.Maybe that is what democracy is!! Thu 10 Feb 2011 16:52:48 GMT+1 Phosgene http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=93#comment713 This post has been Removed Thu 10 Feb 2011 16:37:26 GMT+1 perkinwellbeck http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=93#comment712 sweet william this paragon of virtue and democracy.sweeping away all the ills of the middle east.doe's he wear is underpants on the outside or the inside,what a guy.at sixteen he could not wait to sell,sell, sell of every thing this country owned now he is never out of the air,globe- trotting for justice,wellfare and freedom to protest for all. he is simply the best.i think he should be the PM.i bet hillary listerns to his every word.... Thu 10 Feb 2011 16:36:38 GMT+1 Lenispal http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=93#comment711 This post has been Removed Thu 10 Feb 2011 16:30:31 GMT+1 Sam http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=92#comment710 I have always said a forced democracy is a dictatorship. When G W Bush comes out of his coma ask him. I would love him to go to Switzerland, just to see if there is any justice. Thu 10 Feb 2011 16:28:38 GMT+1 Phosgene http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=92#comment709 This post has been Removed Thu 10 Feb 2011 16:25:47 GMT+1 Lenispal http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=92#comment708 This post has been Removed Thu 10 Feb 2011 16:21:15 GMT+1 Challis http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=92#comment707 I have an interesting problem for the number crunchers out there regarding some of the comments on the biblical age of the Earth: [what it has to do with the topic under discussion I am not sure], but here goes.Could just 2 people [Adam and Eve] have produced nearly 7 billon offspring in only 6,000 years, the age of the Earth according to the bible? Thu 10 Feb 2011 16:02:06 GMT+1 Phosgene http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=92#comment706 This post has been Removed Thu 10 Feb 2011 16:01:53 GMT+1 abraham http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=92#comment705 *696/ WELL WRITTEN .GOD BLESS YOU Thu 10 Feb 2011 15:55:48 GMT+1 recrec http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=92#comment704 After it has been shown that less than 2% of the population decided the General Election he should shut up about democracy. I have been disenfranchised for over thirty years now and would dearly love a vote that meant something! Thu 10 Feb 2011 15:55:35 GMT+1 abraham http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=92#comment703 *695/ IGNORANCE WILL LEAD US NO WHERE . Thu 10 Feb 2011 15:46:38 GMT+1 Lenispal http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=91#comment702 697. At 3:19pm on 10 Feb 2011, david wrote:-----------------------Thanks. I simplied 1. to suit the person I was addressing. I am very familiar with all the falacies of relevance and have proudly published many more.I am not sure I understand your last point, but ... no honestly I don't. But thanks anyway. Here is my entire political philosophy in one sentence: I believe in the ordinary people, not the elites of left and right (or whatever) who think for them. Thu 10 Feb 2011 15:42:13 GMT+1 Mr Cholmondley-Warner http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=91#comment701 693. At 2:50pm on 10 Feb 2011, Kentucker wrote:You or Richard Dawkins can argue until the cows come home, as indeed, as a student of Christian apologetics, I can but you can't argue aginst my experience with God through Christ the Saviour.----------------------------------------------------------------------Whatever your "experience", it doesn't appear to have provided much in the way of the tolerance and compassion for your fellow man that one might expect from a self-professed Christian, judging by your posts here. But never mind that, what's the Big Man really like ? Thu 10 Feb 2011 15:42:13 GMT+1 abraham http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=91#comment700 This post has been Removed Thu 10 Feb 2011 15:38:26 GMT+1 DPStL http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=91#comment699 690. At 2:41pm on 10 Feb 2011, Dr Llareggub wrote:Is anyone prepared to acknowledge that whilst the UK Foreign Secretary is promoting the idea of democracy in the ME the illegal Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Government has been promoting their anatagonistic anti Israelis/anti American arguments in the debate, which are by no means based on democratic values. -------------------------------I have to admit that I heard a few days ago (on the BBC world service) - with reference to the Egypt crisis - the Aytollah Komenie proposing an alliance with the Egyptians against the common enemy, the "Jews."I can't remember word for word his speech but it was a surprise that his message came so quickly & that he appeared to be "jumping the gun" - as the outcome was far from being decided.His message was hostile, not peaceful. Thu 10 Feb 2011 15:32:21 GMT+1 Lenispal http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=91#comment698 693. At 2:50pm on 10 Feb 2011, Kentucker wrote: 560. At 9:38pm on 09 Feb 2011, moreram wrote:I will prove "most" people do not believe in the Old Testiment as historical fact.There are between 2 and 2.2 billion Christians in the world today. The worlds population will reach 7 billion in 2011. You do the math. That isn't taking into account all of the different denominational beliefs either. Evolution - a concise explination of ALL forms of life on the planet without the need for an invisible man in the sky anywhere in sight! :) Ok, I am leaving, I enjoyed speaking with you today and wish you well.//////////////////////////Well firstly I interpreted your assertion as referring to Christians.But even for allowing for your extrapolation - it's estimated that there are combined, something like 4 million plus Christian, Jews and Muslims all of whom accept the OT in one measure or another as the holy word of God; certainly the creation story.But at the end of the day it's not about numbers it's about personal experience and relationship. You or Richard Dawkins can argue until the cows come home, as indeed, as a student of Christian apologetics, I can but you can't argue aginst my experience with God through Christ the Saviour.On another note for all readers. I just checked my in tray to find the mods had removed five, yes five, of my comments ranging from mild banter to a defence of Israel and a factual informational on Palestine etc.I have long begun to think that there is very little point to this forum if it's going to be a PC sterilised moderated by a team of ' little brothers ' and aparatchiks of the BBC thought police.----------------------------------------------------The point you raise at the end is serious. The same topics, relevant to the debate, are being removed from my posts. Even my link to material shown to the US Senate yesterday. There is, as you and others might notice, a connection between certain individual posters here and the moderators. Time, I think, for some of that transparency that is required in democracies. Thu 10 Feb 2011 15:24:34 GMT+1 Lenispal http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=91#comment697 692. At 2:49pm on 10 Feb 2011, Phosgene wrote:685. At 2:00pm on 10 Feb 2011, Dr Llareggub wrote:"Phosgene, I ackowledge your tendency to argue via personal insults, and how replies to you will be censored. This version of a censored reply does not break any house rules."----------Once again, I am dealing with issues. You are making claims about me you *cannot* or *will not* substantiate.How, exactly, is post 533 an "insult"?-----------------------------------------------Here you go. I never said it was, although it is not written in the spirit of polite debate. However, I can, if you like, point out a string of insults in your posts. It is your normal style. Tell you what: pick out your last 10 posts and deny that they contain insults.Now tell me what issues you are dealing with? Hopefully on topic. See my post 687 which reveals your style.I need you to point out how it is that you can identify extreme muslims and moderate muslims as being distinct. But the potential for extremism can be seen in reactions of moderates to certain cartoons. Then the moderates become extremists. Also you ignored my posts where I argued about the dangers to democracy in the ME if Iran gets the bomb.These are topics to debate - not trivial point scoring. Thu 10 Feb 2011 15:20:24 GMT+1 david http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=91#comment696 May I reply to 689 Dr Llareggub, instead of (or as well as) Phosgene?Several points:1. I'm not sure you've got to grips with ad hominem arguments;2. I'm glad you pointed out the argumentum ad populum fallacy - we Have Your Sayers use it regularly and have even extended it to 'I think this, the guy I met in the pub last night thinks this, therefore everyone thinks this, therefore it must be right';3. sitting in front of a computer in Cirencester, I suspect we haven't a clue whether moderate muslims are potential extremists; more, I believe it's wrong even to speculate in that way - we'll only end up generalising and categorising;4. I very much hope that 'primitive religious beliefs' are not your words;5 and finally, what can we do, as democratically-minded people, to support William Hague? I'd say 'switch off the brain programmes you have running at the moment; send those called cynicism and negativity to the recycle bin; insert the discs marked scepticism and optimism, load them, and keep smiling. Thu 10 Feb 2011 15:19:14 GMT+1 Phosgene http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=90#comment695 695. At 3:08pm on 10 Feb 2011, Bob Smyth wrote:'The "PBUH" is the normal "Islamic" addition to "Moses".It implies an assumption of the validity of the "Islamic version" of whatever Moses is claimed to have said and/or done.'----------No it does not. It is merely an honorific.It stands for "praise be upon him" -- surely one of your erudite books states this in the preface? Thu 10 Feb 2011 15:18:56 GMT+1 Bob Smyth http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=90#comment694 691. At 2:46pm on 10 Feb 2011, Challis wrote:At 1:51pm on 10 Feb 2011, abraham wrote:*ALL HEAD OF ARAB STATES INCLUDING HEAD OF EGYPT/SAUDI ARAB ARE PHARAOHS .ALL HAVE TO GO AND DEMOCRACY HAS TO BE ESTABLISHED AT THE EARLIEST --------------- MOSES ( PBUH) IS WATCHING .----------------------------------------------------------------------I agree democracy has to be established, but the bigger question is what form will it take. Nobody wants wants Arab rulers subservient to the west, but at the same time the west does not want Arab rulers harbouring anti-western terrrists either.By the way how can Moses be watching, I thought he was supposed to have lived and died well over 3,000 years ago?-------------------------------------------------------------------------The validity (or otherwise) of the post commented upon might, perhaps, be determined by considering the significance of the phrase "MOSES ( PBUH) IS WATCHING".The "PBUH" is the normal "Islamic" addition to "Moses".It implies an assumption of the validity of the "Islamic version" of whatever Moses is claimed to have said and/or done.That is, whatever the Qur'an says about Moses. Anything else, of course, is considered to be "corruption" by the Jews and Christians. Thu 10 Feb 2011 15:08:07 GMT+1 Phosgene http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=90#comment693 "But I keep trying to ask you - via your moderators - how you may claim to know, in the context of discussing democracy in the ME, whether the moderate muslims are, due to the influences of extremists who play on their primitive religious beliefs, in effect potential extremists. And my next relevant point is what can democratically minded people do to avoid this."----------I find the question bizarre. "primitive religious belief" really does not apply to Judaism or Islam or Christianity. To animism, yes.Any moderate may be a "potential extremist" -- but a moderate is not an extremist -- be that politically, religiously, or some other lifestyle factor. As to how I know ... I read. Try the news, history and ethnography. Now back to the point you raise: How, exactly, is post 533 an "insult"? Thu 10 Feb 2011 15:01:45 GMT+1 Leviticus http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=90#comment692 560. At 9:38pm on 09 Feb 2011, moreram wrote:I will prove "most" people do not believe in the Old Testiment as historical fact.There are between 2 and 2.2 billion Christians in the world today. The worlds population will reach 7 billion in 2011. You do the math. That isn't taking into account all of the different denominational beliefs either. Evolution - a concise explination of ALL forms of life on the planet without the need for an invisible man in the sky anywhere in sight! :) Ok, I am leaving, I enjoyed speaking with you today and wish you well.//////////////////////////Well firstly I interpreted your assertion as referring to Christians.But even for allowing for your extrapolation - it's estimated that there are combined, something like 4 million plus Christian, Jews and Muslims all of whom accept the OT in one measure or another as the holy word of God; certainly the creation story.But at the end of the day it's not about numbers it's about personal experience and relationship. You or Richard Dawkins can argue until the cows come home, as indeed, as a student of Christian apologetics, I can but you can't argue aginst my experience with God through Christ the Saviour.On another note for all readers. I just checked my in tray to find the mods had removed five, yes five, of my comments ranging from mild banter to a defence of Israel and a factual informational on Palestine etc.I have long begun to think that there is very little point to this forum if it's going to be a PC sterilised moderated by a team of ' little brothers ' and aparatchiks of the BBC thought police. Thu 10 Feb 2011 14:50:27 GMT+1 Phosgene http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=90#comment691 685. At 2:00pm on 10 Feb 2011, Dr Llareggub wrote:"Phosgene, I ackowledge your tendency to argue via personal insults, and how replies to you will be censored. This version of a censored reply does not break any house rules."----------Once again, I am dealing with issues. You are making claims about me you *cannot* or *will not* substantiate.How, exactly, is post 533 an "insult"? Thu 10 Feb 2011 14:49:08 GMT+1 Challis http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=90#comment690 At 1:51pm on 10 Feb 2011, abraham wrote:*ALL HEAD OF ARAB STATES INCLUDING HEAD OF EGYPT/SAUDI ARAB ARE PHARAOHS .ALL HAVE TO GO AND DEMOCRACY HAS TO BE ESTABLISHED AT THE EARLIEST --------------- MOSES ( PBUH) IS WATCHING .----------------------------------------------------------------------I agree democracy has to be established, but the bigger question is what form will it take. Nobody wants wants Arab rulers subservient to the west, but at the same time the west does not want Arab rulers harbouring anti-western terrrists either.By the way how can Moses be watching, I thought he was supposed to have lived and died well over 3,000 years ago? Thu 10 Feb 2011 14:46:43 GMT+1 Lenispal http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=90#comment689 Is anyone prepared to acknowledge that whilst the UK Foreign Secretary is promoting the idea of democracy in the ME the illegal Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Government has been promoting their anatagonistic anti Israelis/anti American arguments in the debate, which are by no means based on democratic values. Thu 10 Feb 2011 14:41:03 GMT+1 Lenispal http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=90#comment688 677. At 1:31pm on 10 Feb 2011, Phosgene wrote:"533. At 7:49pm on 09 Feb 2011, Phosgene wrote:Yes, Bob, lame...For all the scripture you claim to read and understand, you seem unable to process how the Iranian revolution is not really an Islamic revolution at all.Try as you might on your trawls to find the most extreme scripture, it's interesting to note that you don't seem capable of spotting how the Iranian revolution falls short of being an Islamic revolution.It implies you don't really read the non-extreme scripture at all -- it's hardly a sign of your expertise."OK - I have reread again. And it still seems to be about the topic instead of seeming to be an insult.I've noticed a trend on HYS over the last few years and that trend is that debate gets characterised as "insulting" or "ad hominem" if someone disagrees and cannot argue the point back. Quite why Llareggub is deciding to challenge me when I point out -- once again -- how wrong Bob Smyth is is an interesting ... coincidence? pattern? bit of chivalry?I await a sane and fact-based explanation from Llareggub of what exactly this insult is supposed to be. Surely it's not worse that what Llareggub does?---------------------------------------------I am trying to discuss your points Phosgene but someone keeps referring them to the moderators.Answering your question: when one inserts into an argument a personal insult, such as 'you are being dishonest, stupid etc etc.' is an ad hominem fallacy. Likewise, your repeated references to what everyone you know believes, are fallacies of argumentum ad populum. In your last sentence, referring to 'what Llareub does' there is an implied insult.But I keep trying to ask you - via your moderators - how you may claim to know, in the context of discussing democracy in the ME, whether the moderate muslims are, due to the influences of extremists who play on their primitive religious beliefs, in effect potential extremists. And my next relevant point is what can democratically minded people do to avoid this.I would appreciate an answer but suspect I will be censored. Thu 10 Feb 2011 14:28:32 GMT+1 Phosgene http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=89#comment687 This post has been Removed Thu 10 Feb 2011 14:17:05 GMT+1 Lenispal http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=89#comment686 The moderators have once more done a retrospective job or removing my posts, including one which linked to the US Senate on the very issue of democracy in the ME. This is worse than Cairo.Posts to Phosgene always get removed as being off topic. Here is a selection of Phosgene's off topic posts which are not removed. Judge for youselves.11.18 9 feb10.50 9 feb10.45 9 feb.12. 24 9 feb10.19 9.feband lots more. Now I too am a licence payer and my removed posts were on topic and part of a dialogue. Who is controlling this debate? Thu 10 Feb 2011 14:11:07 GMT+1 Drooper_ http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=89#comment685 664. At 12:02pm on 10 Feb 2011, Willo wrote:In response to Drooper_ (506) who wrote:In response to Willo, not far above and earlier, s/he was condemning critics of our political system for failing to offer a better way. But a lot of contributors have made suggestions, e.g. local MPs, maximum of 2 terms in Parliament, reform of the electoral sysytem, an elected upper House, etc. And you say it serves the country well. This is a subjective statement. What you mean is, it serves some of the country well, but fail to say it disenfranchises the majority of the country, some of whom obviously don't think it serves them well, as reflected on this blog. Each voter may have 1 vote, but those votes clearly don't have equal value, and while this is the case, it's very unlikely turkeys are going to vote for Christmas.Whatever the arguments for and against, don't call it democracy._________________________________________________________________________The suggestions you mention are just variations of democracy, not a different political system.I don't understand how you think our system "disenfranchises the majority of the country", or how our votes don't have equal value, or what turkeys and Christmas have to do with it.Everyone has one vote. What's wrong with that? If you choose not to use it, don't complain about the result. In Iraq's elections voters turned out in huge numbers, embracing the opportunity to take part in the democratic process in spite of the threat to their lives. In this country many can't be bothered going to the polling station if it's raining. That is a sad reflection on those individuals who don't vote, not on the system itself.-------------------------------------------------------------------------Who cares if it's called a 'variation of democracy' or 'system'? What's important is if something else would be better. Re: 'I don't understand..", or you say you don't understand, i.e. a turkey, that the majority of the electorate have been disenfranchised. I'm sure I don't need to refer you to the history of British General Elections to remind you that it's more often the rule than the exception that the ruling party governs even if the majority of the voters opposed them at the General Election. This is minority (of the votes, not representation) government, a halfway house between dictatorship and democracy. What was the point of these people voting, if their will will often be ignored in Parliament? If we had a vote of the bloggers to decide whether we were going to make changes suggested on here, and it ended in a tie but I said, "Actually, we won the vote because our voters live closer together", I'm sure you'd be on the phone to the BBC straightaway to complain that your vote was not so equal as mine.And would we allow you to celebrate Christmas? The annoying thing is, I think we would. Thu 10 Feb 2011 14:06:46 GMT+1 Lenispal http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=89#comment684 Posting:428. At 2:44pm on 09 Feb 2011, Phosgene wrote: 410. --------------------------------------------------------Phosgene,My third reply, others moderated out even though no house rules were broken. Something odd here...First paragraph censored out....So we need evidence and rational argument....(.Censored out..)..Phosgene, I ackowledge your tendency to argue via personal insults, and how replies to you will be censored. This version of a censored reply does not break any house rules.I simply want to raise the question, in the context of the debate about Britain putting the case for democracy, whether or not moderate muslims can be easily converted into potential extremists by the teachings of radical preachers. If so, is there a democratic solution to this problem?This is a subject you have repeatedly raised in this debate. Hoping for a response. Thu 10 Feb 2011 14:00:28 GMT+1 I_Despise_Labour http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=89#comment683 63. At 12:28pm on 08 Feb 2011, Total Mass Retain wrote:56. At 12:24pm on 08 Feb 2011, Toothpick Harry wrote:Britain is a phoney democracy, why should any foreign secretary from a phoney democracy give a lecture about a true democracy to anyone. If our governments past and present listened to it's people and acted on what the people wanted, feared, requested etc; then we could be classed as a democracy. Some things are too important to allow a bunch of second rate politicians to make a decision on, examples, a referendum on the EU, immigration. A referendum on both these subjects are required and once a decision is made, that has to hold true for a generation, not as in some countries where they keep having referendums until they get the answer they want.I have news for you: we had a referendum on the EU in 1975.------------------------------------------------------------------Actually that was a referendum on a common market, not quite the same thing as the EU.... Thu 10 Feb 2011 13:53:49 GMT+1 DPStL http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=89#comment682 669. At 12:29pm on 10 Feb 2011, Sachidananda Narayanan wrote:Should the UK promote democracy abroad?Is a "Kingdom" can ever be a democracy?United or not, the UK cannot sell sand to North Africans.Enough sand is there in the Upper Saharan nations in millions of dunes from Cairo to Casablanca.Let William Hague clean his household off the Royal linen to shine in democratic brightness that he longs to see in nations away from his tiny island shores.As for promoting democracy, the UK should send its Secretary for Education, Science and Technology rather than a cans of political worm to foment trouble for hidden agenda. Yes, North Africa is oil rich. Yes, the North Sea reserve is dwindling. Yes, you need to economically colonize new nations making them weak with an incurable illness better known as democracy.We suffer in India with our democracy too much. Each of our politicians are downright corruptors of our Parliamentary system of democracy. We were fooled by the British format of democracy while Britain remained to be a Monarchy. Democracy is unfit for nations filled by human population. It is fit only for the beings in the Kalahari and Borneo jungles or the creatures living along the flow of the Amazon River. -------------------------------Dear Sachidananda,Henry the 8th is long gone - The Queen is today a figurehead.Parliament rules - not always wisely - but they rule. Many think the Queen would be better. ..............." rather than a cans of political worm to foment trouble for hidden agenda."..........Not sure what you mean. Maybe you have some inside information - walk in the corridors of power? Or just imagining?"North Sea reserve is dwindling."Yes it is but the artic is awash, thank God."Yes, you need to economically colonize new nations making them weak with an incurable illness better known as democracy."No thankyou - we don't. Those days have long gone & many countries which were part of the Empire now rule themselves. Some well - others not so..."It is fit only for the beings in the Kalahari and Borneo jungles or the creatures living along the flow of the Amazon River."It seems you have contempt for some regions/peoples on this planet. A bit patronising is it not. & lastly what would you put in place of one man, one vote? Please give tried & tested examples. Thu 10 Feb 2011 13:53:35 GMT+1 abraham http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=89#comment681 * ALL HEAD OF ARAB STATES INCLUDING HEAD OF EGYPT/SAUDI ARAB ARE PHARAOHS . ALL HAVE TO GO AND DEMOCRACY HAS TO BE ESTABLISHED AT THE EARLIEST --------------- MOSES ( PBUH) IS WATCHING . Thu 10 Feb 2011 13:51:35 GMT+1 I_Despise_Labour http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=89#comment680 lol, we should try implementing it ourselves before we go promoting it!! Thu 10 Feb 2011 13:50:58 GMT+1 Andy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=88#comment679 650. At 10:34am on 10 Feb 2011, proudtobeacumbrian wrote:UK promote Democracy?What gives us the right to tell other countries that our system is the right one for them. It isn't very democratic to try and impose your will.----------------------------------------------------------------------It was us imposing our will, through the Royal navy which helps bring an end to the global slave trade. Maybe a government came to power in the UK, brought in a series of brutal, medieval style laws you be a bit more open to other countries getting involved. If you wouldn't tolerate it happening to you why tolerate it happening to someone else? Thu 10 Feb 2011 13:49:39 GMT+1 Andy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=88#comment678 604. At 00:34am on 10 Feb 2011, Pakkamac wrote:The UK was never meant to be multicultural :: the US is an example of multiculturism - governed by whites who are not themselves natives.---------------------------------------------------------------------I think the brightness on your TV must be too high seeing as you think Obama is white. Also why are your replies to the different HYS topics on this one? From your post however it's clear to see your antisemitic agenda is quite clear, and you don't even left facts such as Obama not being white from stopping you from saying what you want. Obama being elect presented in the USA would be the equivalent of a Jew or Christian being elected presentment in Iran, and Jews and Christians have been in Persia a lot longer than Muslims. Thu 10 Feb 2011 13:41:05 GMT+1 Ascensi0n http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=88#comment677 NONE! Because to promote something you must first have it yourself and we dont, we as most western countries have pretend democracy where those at the top let us think we play a role to keep us obediant.Capitalism, liberalism and democracy failed decades ago! We need to be looking at a new system which is built on cooperation, resource sharing with no monetary system because it is obsolete, just think if you abolish money you also eradicate poverty and the rich vs poor divide!No this is not communism! (Before you say lol) Thu 10 Feb 2011 13:40:07 GMT+1 Phosgene http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=88#comment676 "533. At 7:49pm on 09 Feb 2011, Phosgene wrote:Yes, Bob, lame...For all the scripture you claim to read and understand, you seem unable to process how the Iranian revolution is not really an Islamic revolution at all.Try as you might on your trawls to find the most extreme scripture, it's interesting to note that you don't seem capable of spotting how the Iranian revolution falls short of being an Islamic revolution.It implies you don't really read the non-extreme scripture at all -- it's hardly a sign of your expertise."OK - I have reread again. And it still seems to be about the topic instead of seeming to be an insult.I've noticed a trend on HYS over the last few years and that trend is that debate gets characterised as "insulting" or "ad hominem" if someone disagrees and cannot argue the point back. Quite why Llareggub is deciding to challenge me when I point out -- once again -- how wrong Bob Smyth is is an interesting ... coincidence? pattern? bit of chivalry?I await a sane and fact-based explanation from Llareggub of what exactly this insult is supposed to be. Surely it's not worse that what Llareggub does? Thu 10 Feb 2011 13:31:57 GMT+1 Andrew Lye http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=88#comment675 We still dont have proportional representation, so how can we be shouting from the rooftops with our discredited voting system.I am NOT in favour of the AV and prefer proportional representation where every vote should count. Thu 10 Feb 2011 13:24:44 GMT+1 Phosgene http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=88#comment674 This post has been Removed Thu 10 Feb 2011 13:20:43 GMT+1 david http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=88#comment673 Reply to MrWonderfulReality at post 665.I haven't a clue as to what you're talking about.But I suspect it's rude.Do you want to clarify?Meanwhile, even if I'm one of your 'stupid ignorant muppet brigade' - I still think our democracy is great; after all, it lets you and me write nonsense without fear of being locked up. Thu 10 Feb 2011 13:20:01 GMT+1 Small acts of defiance http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=87#comment672 As is becoming clear from recent revelations in the press about the funding of the Tory party, democracy in the UK is pretty well dead and buried. The uncomfortable truth is that money buys influence. Elections are just a charade so we can all pretend that we as individuals have any say on how the country is governed. The old maxim that "if voting changed anything, they'd ban it" has never been more true. Thu 10 Feb 2011 12:52:13 GMT+1 MrWonderfulReality http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=87#comment671 This post has been Removed Thu 10 Feb 2011 12:44:10 GMT+1 matt-stone http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=87#comment670 This post has been Removed Thu 10 Feb 2011 12:37:50 GMT+1 MrWonderfulReality http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=87#comment669 This post has been Removed Thu 10 Feb 2011 12:31:16 GMT+1 Sachidananda Narayanan http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=87#comment668 Should the UK promote democracy abroad?Is a "Kingdom" can ever be a democracy?United or not, the UK cannot sell sand to North Africans. Enough sand is there in the Upper Saharan nations in millions of dunes from Cairo to Casablanca. Let William Hague clean his household off the Royal linen to shine in democratic brightness that he longs to see in nations away from his tiny island shores.As for promoting democracy, the UK should send its Secretary for Education, Science and Technology rather than a cans of political worm to foment trouble for hidden agenda. Yes, North Africa is oil rich. Yes, the North Sea reserve is dwindling. Yes, you need to economically colonize new nations making them weak with an incurable illness better known as democracy.We suffer in India with our democracy too much. Each of our politicians are downright corruptors of our Parliamentary system of democracy. We were fooled by the British format of democracy while Britain remained to be a Monarchy. Democracy is unfit for nations filled by human population. It is fit only for the beings in the Kalahari and Borneo jungles or the creatures living along the flow of the Amazon River. Thu 10 Feb 2011 12:29:03 GMT+1 coastwalker http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=87#comment667 Never mind promoting democracy, we should not be shielding rotten dictators from their own people just because it is convenient for us. You hear a lot of hogwash from the Americans about democracy but it is nonsense, in many ways their society is becoming as irrational and unfair as the Iranian theocracy. I predict that only third world countries will be calling themselves democratic by the end of the century. The banks actually run things as we have recently discovered. Thu 10 Feb 2011 12:26:57 GMT+1 Lenispal http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=87#comment666 660. At 11:54am on 10 Feb 2011, Asterix-in-Poland wrote: 622. At 05:37am on 10 Feb 2011, jrr123 wrote:Funny enough Bob, I do know Pakistan, but not as well as The Middle East, ..... “Baying mobs” - give us all a break !======I too have been to Pakistan (and Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, Egypt and many other countries) and I have to admit that I have indeed seen the "baying mobs". Of all the countries I have ever been to, I did find Pakistan to be the most frightening of them all. However, I don't put that down to any religious beliefs. I think it was more a case of over-populated and under-educated. Much of Pakistan is desert or inhospitable mountains so there is rather a lot of overcrowding on the Indus valley. You can see similar 'baying mobs' at many football matches, perhaps not so much these days with many 'all seater' grounds, but it's a similar principle - a tightly packed crowd of not so well educated people can easily be goaded into becoing a 'baying mob'. I have been to many parts of the world where there are very poor people. When they live apart in small villages, they seem to be quite happy, oblivious to anything they might be missing out on from the rest of the world. But when you meet poor people in big cities it is there that you will find a large proportion who are deeply dissatisfied. They can see the riches that they desire, so close but they can't get to them. Having seen all the things around the world I think that the UK is indeed a very good place to live. We have more or less eradicated poverty (though some would argue we are gradually increasing it these days), we have education available to all children, a fantastic, almost free health service and many more good things. William Hague can't just hand all these out to everyone in the Middle East, but he can at least talk to those who will listen and show that we are prepared to help.--------------------------------------------------------Please don't take my response as confrontational or hostile, as I can appreciate your contribution, like many others you have made. And I thoroughly endorse your concluding sentences.I simply want to address an assumption that 'baying mobs' are from 'poor not so well educated people'. In the wrong hands this supports the view that what the poor need is education and my leadership, or rather the leadership that my superior and elitist party can provide. There are baying mobs in the House of Commons, although this is a public schoolboy ritual. More serious are the baying mobs in our places of higher education, calling for death to Americans, Jews etc. and these people are both wealthy and well educated. But for saying this I will be called a hate spreader on this page. Thu 10 Feb 2011 12:24:36 GMT+1 DPStL http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=87#comment665 655. At 11:20am on 10 Feb 2011, abraham wrote:*653/*653/THE MOMENT PEOPLE ACCEPT THE FACT THAT ALL ARE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF ABRAHAM , PEACE WILL PREVAIL .JEWS HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO LIVE WITH TOTAL PEACE . WHO SAVED ARABS FROM PHARAOH ?ANSWER : MOSES (pbuh) ---------------------Abraham - you are surprising me. I agree with everything you say.All peoples have the right to express their views in a peaceful way & everyone has the right to follow their chosen path. It has been said that many roads lead to the same goal. Don't blame the religions, blame the religionists.Finally, tolerance & humility are great virtues. Thu 10 Feb 2011 12:10:07 GMT+1 MrWonderfulReality http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/02/what_role_should_uk_play_in_pr.html?page=86#comment664 Democracy has no effect on the "I'm a silly stupid ignorant muppet brigade" who's value of opinion is so low and beyond even basic intelectual competance and reasoning, who are all too apparant on this and other HYS topics. Thu 10 Feb 2011 12:02:08 GMT+1