Comments for http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html en-gb 30 Sat 25 Apr 2015 23:38:47 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html in_the_uk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=99#comment661 658. At 10:56am on 17 Jan 2011, C_Rocco wrote:I can't believe that the BBC is allowing these Anti-Catholic comments to remain here! This is terrible, how dare you people judge Catholics so harshly. You call it "mumbo jumbo", yet you believe in the Big Bang. I believe in the Big Bang as well, but I DO ACKNOWLEDGE THE FACT THAT IT WAS A MIRACLE. Stop being so Anti-Catholic! I am enraged that the BBC allows this terrible Anti-Catholicism. How dare they!Now onto the actual issue at hand,I believe that whether this miracle occurred or not, that it is very important to accept Catholic rituals and culture. On with the beatification! Also, many people stated that John Paul II tried to cover up sex scandals. This is not so! It was under his leadership that the most evil Priests were brought to tial than by any other Pope this century! Get your facts straight before being so Anti-Catholic. The Roman Empire conquered you once, and I hope it does again, but this time metaphorically. ----------------------------The big bang was a miracle? How do you work that out?The big bang has been worked out up until a fraction of a second. Before that is still being studied. When the truth is found it could turn out to be inevitable or unlikely but to assume a miracle just shows how devalued the word is.Also if he is the one to bring the most priests to justice than any other pope, it just makes the catholic church look more criminal.As for wanting the romans to conquer us again (nice catholic sentement), do you mean the catholic romans or the romans? They were conquering lands and assimilating various religions before they included catholicism. Their belief in the power of 3 is demonstrated in the creation of the holy trinity. Mon 17 Jan 2011 11:20:57 GMT+1 John Mc http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=99#comment660 657. At 10:49am on 17 Jan 2011, Krishnamurthy wrote:Yet another saint for millions of people who want to cure their illnesses and make a better living in this life! Why not their God solve all the sufferings of his people without creating more saints to do the job? Yet another Catholic mumbo jumbo to fool the millions who blindly follow the Church.==================================================From the name you adopt above I can only point out that Asia has multitudes of Gods and Demi Gods as well that in your words "People who want to cure their illnesses and make a better living in this life!" the same could be said about that stream of belief.Your own upbringing does not leave you able to claim superiority as no religion has that right either.A comment such as yours shows some form of intolerance to others, possibly you are not religious or worse. Mon 17 Jan 2011 11:19:45 GMT+1 No Victim No Crime http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=99#comment659 On Thursday the little green men from mars are coming. Mon 17 Jan 2011 11:12:11 GMT+1 Nickjg http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=99#comment658 No. He was the supporter of some of the most ultra-right wing clergy in his church and still clung to the doctrine of infallibility which is a sort of tyranny that should never be countenanced! Think of the millions of lives kept in misery by his interference- the only miracle he ever performed was not being ousted from office years before.! Mon 17 Jan 2011 10:58:33 GMT+1 C_Rocco http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=99#comment657 I can't believe that the BBC is allowing these Anti-Catholic comments to remain here! This is terrible, how dare you people judge Catholics so harshly. You call it "mumbo jumbo", yet you believe in the Big Bang. I believe in the Big Bang as well, but I DO ACKNOWLEDGE THE FACT THAT IT WAS A MIRACLE. Stop being so Anti-Catholic! I am enraged that the BBC allows this terrible Anti-Catholicism. How dare they!Now onto the actual issue at hand, I believe that whether this miracle occurred or not, that it is very important to accept Catholic rituals and culture. On with the beatification! Also, many people stated that John Paul II tried to cover up sex scandals. This is not so! It was under his leadership that the most evil Priests were brought to tial than by any other Pope this century! Get your facts straight before being so Anti-Catholic. The Roman Empire conquered you once, and I hope it does again, but this time metaphorically. Mon 17 Jan 2011 10:56:21 GMT+1 Krishnamurthy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=99#comment656 Yet another saint for millions of people who want to cure their illnesses and make a better living in this life! Why not their God solve all the sufferings of his people without creating more saints to do the job? Yet another Catholic mumbo jumbo to fool the millions who blindly follow the Church. Mon 17 Jan 2011 10:49:55 GMT+1 Dominic http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=98#comment655 40. At 12:52pm on 14 Jan 2011, maroonfever wrote:"Isn't Jedi an accepted 'religion' now ? I thought that campaign a few years ago during the national census to get people to put down Jedi received enough support for this to happen"No, it didn't. You thought wrongly. Mon 17 Jan 2011 10:35:37 GMT+1 Trainee Anarchist http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=98#comment654 I had toothache recently and my dentist cured it by extracting the tooth.The dentists name was StJohn.....weird...............!!!!!!!!! Mon 17 Jan 2011 10:28:25 GMT+1 Billy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=98#comment653 Are these people saying that a dead man with no medical training curing somebody of an uncurable disease, is more likely than somebody being mis-diagnosed?However if he dose have the power to cure a nun of Parkinsons, can he do Micahel J Fox next please? I loved his flims and want him to make more. I know you can hear me becuase you are magic.After that maybe he can start work on all the AIDS victims in Africa, or is it only white people who are allowed miracles? Mon 17 Jan 2011 10:27:39 GMT+1 Dominic http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=98#comment652 8. At 12:21pm on 14 Jan 2011, John Mc wrote:"Sainthood is the blessing and recognition of the people not the Vatican. Why was Mother Theresa not voted for a blessing?? Because she was female possibly."She was beatified in 2003. Mon 17 Jan 2011 10:21:33 GMT+1 Dave Godfrey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=98#comment651 The current pope clearly needs this more than the dead one does. Mon 17 Jan 2011 10:12:30 GMT+1 in_the_uk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=98#comment650 648. At 08:42am on 17 Jan 2011, gerryzm wrote:"Low probability events" (aka "miracles") clearly occur despite being unlikely. I don't see what religion has to do with these happenings.-----------------------Because when something good happens its gods gift. When something bad happens god moves in mysterious ways. Most people require proof which so far doesnt exist so unexpected and unlikely events are jumped on as proof of a god. Then when the fact finders discover the truth and explain why the 'miracles' really happen the religious say god made that set of circumstances.Merely by supporting something with no proof they can claim anything as proof. Its backward logic but it fools people. Especially kids and vulnrable people Mon 17 Jan 2011 09:46:17 GMT+1 John Mc http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=98#comment649 639. At 03:13am on 17 Jan 2011, MilwaukeeRay wrote:Open season on Catholics, as usual. How about something different, like a discussion about whether Scientology and Mormonism are cults?=========================================================I would suggest the former is a dangerous cult.All religions are a cult. Faith in something better is what all of us have and out there someone wants to control it, religion gives them the answer on how to access that control.Any religion that says, we are the only way, is wrong and any person that subjugates their right to a personal commune in favour of a single religious figure has been brainwashed by said religion.No one person is the telephone line to .............whomever you want to add to the end of this sentence. Mon 17 Jan 2011 09:23:09 GMT+1 presario http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=97#comment648 Who cares? Mon 17 Jan 2011 09:05:12 GMT+1 gerryzm http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=97#comment647 "Low probability events" (aka "miracles") clearly occur despite being unlikely. I don't see what religion has to do with these happenings. Mon 17 Jan 2011 08:42:41 GMT+1 Ali Haider Kazmi http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=97#comment646 Now that pope Benadict has proven himself to be an irrational person, I feel a lot better about his outburst against the holy prophet Mon 17 Jan 2011 08:29:34 GMT+1 Stokkevn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=97#comment645 46. At 12:56pm on 14 Jan 2011, polcirkel wrote:Since the end of the Second World War, sexual attacks by catholic priests on children mushroomed. What did the various Popes, including John Paul II, do to root out and defrock paedophile priests?It would seem the answer is precious little.-----------------------------------------------------------------They just moved the priests involved to a different parish, just to spread the joy around. Mon 17 Jan 2011 07:05:55 GMT+1 hikertom http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=97#comment644 #634 Respondent wrote:And then consider if a tornado came through a junkyard and tore through the old cars; would it leave behind a nice new Mercedes with the engine running and no parts left around? Naturally not. ------------------------------------------------------------------This is a false analogy, and it would have made sense before Galileo, Newton, Darwin, and Einstein. The Universe wasn't formed by random accident, it followed laws of physics that have been verified countless times by observation and experimentation. Gases condense into stars and planets and stars collect into galexies because of gravitational forces. There is nothing that has ever happened in the history of the universe that can't be explained by natural processes. Belief in the supernatural is no longer needed in the modern world. Mon 17 Jan 2011 04:53:06 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=97#comment643 @639. MilwaukeeRay wrote:Open season on CatholicsMore like equal opportunity although the BBC chose the beatification of the pope as the subject and recent events concerning pedophilia has raised the ire of many people. Mon 17 Jan 2011 04:50:26 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=96#comment642 This post has been Removed Mon 17 Jan 2011 04:30:23 GMT+1 Tony of Britain http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=96#comment641 This post has been Removed Mon 17 Jan 2011 04:29:43 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=96#comment640 This post has been Removed Mon 17 Jan 2011 04:27:01 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=96#comment639 @633. Andrew MortonAgain, that you want to use the word "atheist" in a way in which nobody else uses it really doesn't help in communication. I am a non-believer with regard to other gods. That is simply not the same thing as "atheist" Again, a good dictionary may help youI took your advice about a dictionary Oxford Dictionariesatheist a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods. You call it “non-believer with regard to other gods” the dictionary calls it atheist, as I do.I've been reviewing my posts and I notice the weasel word "indicate". Up to now I don't think I've actually stated whether I believe in any God. You have intimated that you do and hence my use of indicate rather than make a statement that could be wrong. Of course if I said that you believe in god without prior knowledge could be construed as an accusation or lie. Do try to understand - correcting the factual errors of atheists is not the same thing as promoting religious belief.Do try and understand that your religious beliefs are totally without merit, foundation or fact for someone of different beliefs (an atheists by definition) to your religion. I am asserting nothing, with regard to God, other than that I believe he exists. My statement of such can be regarded as proof of that assertion. And I now require you to prove, logically, that for something to exist it must have a specified (or specifiable) location - as you have indicated that this is your criterion for determining existence. Do I detect you using the weasel word “indicate” in your assumption of what I consider to be proof of existence. What would serve my requirements is when at least one of the 5 scenes is engaged. Please tell me that you can hear god. Having an imaginary friend is not the most intelligent thing for an adult to have but when that friend speaks...................... Three bricks short of a load comes to mind. Mon 17 Jan 2011 04:20:38 GMT+1 MilwaukeeRay http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=96#comment638 Open season on Catholics, as usual. How about something different, like a discussion about whether Scientology and Mormonism are cults? Mon 17 Jan 2011 03:13:16 GMT+1 Pioneer http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=96#comment637 respondent 364 writes: "Allah does not force anyone to submit to Him. He has layed out a clear path and then made it known to them the two ways (Heaven or Hell). The person is always free to make his or her own choice. There is not complusion in the way of "Islam." Whoever choses to worship Allah without partners and is devoted to Him and is obeying His commands as much as possible, has grasped the firm handhold that will never break. Whoever denies God and choses some other way to worship or not to believe at all, for them there is an eternal punishment that is most horrible (Hell)".__________________________________________________________So are you saying you believe every human being who ever existed on planet Earth before the birth of Islam is damned in hell? Mon 17 Jan 2011 02:03:24 GMT+1 Haltone http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=96#comment636 #634 respondentI like asking awkward questions. 1.You say whoever denies God or worships him another way goes to hell, does that include the Amazonian tribes who have lived for thousands of years in South America, and who have only recently been discovered by explorers and therefore know nothing about Islam?2. What about Islamic suicide bombers, are they in heaven or hell? 3. are you seriously saying God created people just so he could consign them to hell? if God knows everything as you claim then he knew in advance some of the choices they would make would send them to Hell.If Islam really is the true religion why was it formulated around 600 years after Christianity and thousands of years after Judaism, in other words the true religion should have been the first religion to come into existence. Mon 17 Jan 2011 00:45:02 GMT+1 respondent http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=95#comment635 This post has been Removed Mon 17 Jan 2011 00:01:44 GMT+1 Pioneer http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=95#comment634 At 10:45am on 16 Jan 2011, Alasdair Campbell wrote:Does it matter? This surely is a topic for Catholics to decide because is anybody else interested.--------------------------------------------------I think you are missing the point. Catholics have no say in the matter; the beatification is purely an internal vatican matter which has no effect on the average Catholic whatsoever, HYS is simply trying to stimulate debate on the subject.Judging by the reaction to this topic so far it would seem atheists and non-Catholics are far more interested in this topic than the Catholics, but only because it affords them the opportunity to slag-off the Pope and Catholocism is general.It amuses me when atheists post comments claiming Catholics believe God lives in the 'sky', every schoolboy knows the sky is merely an optical illusion caused by sunlight reflecting off the atmosphere causing it to glow blue. Sun 16 Jan 2011 23:55:27 GMT+1 respondent http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=95#comment633 This post has been Removed Sun 16 Jan 2011 23:53:16 GMT+1 Andrew Morton http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=95#comment632 631. At 10:02pm on 16 Jan 2011, Cariboo wrote:@626. Andrew Morton wrote:You asked an inane supercilious question - just what kind of answer were you expecting?I asked you a question that if you could answer would prove that there is indeed at least one true god amongst 2000 odd that man has believed in over the ages.-------------------------------------Perhaps, but it would not be the one I believe in. You asked me for God's postal address - if you don't see that this was inane and supercilious, I recommend you go and look the words up in a good dictionary Just how does one go about picking the rite one. You seem to have discarded all but one (yes you are an atheist to all the gods except those that you choose).-------------------------------------Again, that you want to use the word "atheist" in a way in which nobody else uses it really doesn't help in communication. I am a non-believer with regard to other gods. That is simply not the same thing as "atheist" Again, a good dictionary may help you≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠ It is you who is indicating that there is a god(s), the burden of proof is with you.--------------------------------------I've been reviewing my posts and I notice the weasel word "indicate". Up to now I don't think I've actually stated whether I believe in any God. Do try to understand - correcting the factual errors of atheists is not the same thing as promoting religious belief.≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠≠ I make no claims of belief or ownership. I am challenging you to prove your assertions and you cannot as evident by your inability to give the location of god.--------------------------------------I am asserting nothing, with regard to God, other than that I believe he exists. My statement of such can be regarded as proof of that assertion. And I now require you to prove, logically, that for something to exist it must have a specified (or specifiable) location - as you have indicated that this is your criterion for determining existence. Sun 16 Jan 2011 23:49:36 GMT+1 respondent http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=95#comment631 hthe pope was a ordinary human being who lived the life he was given and died the death he was given"Every soul shall have taste of death; In the end to us shall ye be brought back Say: "The Angel of Death put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls: Then shall ye be brought back to your Lord. Sun 16 Jan 2011 23:41:36 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=95#comment630 @626. Andrew Morton wrote:You asked an inane supercilious question - just what kind of answer were you expecting?I asked you a question that if you could answer would prove that there is indeed at least one true god amongst 2000 odd that man has believed in over the ages. Just how does one go about picking the rite one. You seem to have discarded all but one (yes you are an atheist to all the gods except those that you choose). It is you who is indicating that there is a god(s), the burden of proof is with you. I make no claims of belief or ownership. I am challenging you to prove your assertions and you cannot as evident by your inability to give the location of god. Sun 16 Jan 2011 22:02:32 GMT+1 The Man From Utopia http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=95#comment629 629. At 9:33pm on 16 Jan 2011, David wrote:If they believe in it, it's none of anyone elsea business.-------------------------------------------------------------The Catholic Church spent long enough persecuting others for their beliefs. If the boot is now on the other foot then that's no more than they deserve. Besides, I think the Church is big enough to take a little ridicule now and again, don't you? Sun 16 Jan 2011 21:45:49 GMT+1 David http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=94#comment628 If they believe in it, it's none of anyone elsea business. Sun 16 Jan 2011 21:33:42 GMT+1 The Man From Utopia http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=94#comment627 I don't think John Paul II will care much....he's dead Sun 16 Jan 2011 21:31:45 GMT+1 The Man From Utopia http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=94#comment626 The Catholic church has a need for saints; it keeps the ignorant interested, and thus is the very life blood of the church. Without a constant stream of 'miracles' and 'saints' the church will wither and died, and the priesthood know it.Religion is regarded by the common people as true; by the wise as false; and by the rulers as useful - Seneca (4BC-65CE)A wise man, that Seneca chap. Sun 16 Jan 2011 21:28:25 GMT+1 Andrew Morton http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=94#comment625 620. At 7:13pm on 16 Jan 2011, Cariboo wrote:@587. Andrew Morton proselytizing again:579. At 01:06am on 16 Jan 2011, Cariboo wrote:575. Andrew Morton proselytized:I don't know any practising Christians who believe in "invisible beings that live in the sky". If I wanted to send the deity that you kowtow to a letter, what address would I put on the envelope?---------------------------------------I have restricted myself to correcting the many inaccuracies, distortions, half-truths and atheist myths regarding it that abound on these boards. This cannot be regarded as proselytism.The burden of proof lies with you as you are making claims that something in some form exists somewhere, that no one can see hear or touch. There cannot be “inaccuracies, distortions, half-truths and atheist myths”, you can only make a faith based claim. One must remember that faith is the absolute belief in the absolutely unprovable and has landed some people in the nut house and others to rid the world of undesirables etc. etc=========================================Ah - the usual Atheist cop-out that the "burden of proof" somehow always lies with somebody else. But hang on a minute! I haven't made any "claims" - none at all. It is the atheists on this discussion that have made no end of claims - from the relationship between science and religion, to what it is that Christians actually believe to the shape of the world and everything in between. And they have failed to substantiate those claims = oh but yes, the "burden of proof" somehow lies elsewhere, doesn't it?At no point have I asked anyone to share my beliefs or accept them as true. I know fine well the difference between 'belief' and 'objective fact'. And that's the real problem with so many professional atheists these days - they've forgotten it.-----------------------------------------------------You are an atheist also, unless you believe in all the ancient gods on this list.http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_myth_gods_index.htmI and many other are atheistic about one more god.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Look, I know logic and rationality are in short supply in the atheist world these days; but that about scrapes the barrel. The word "Atheist" means "without (a) god". Suggesting that it can apply to a theist who doesn't accept a whole plethora of gods is like saying that "black" means "white". You cannot, by definition, be 'partially' atheist or 'more atheist'. Again, it's like a monogamous man saying to a devout monk , "you too are not celibate because you are only celibate with regard to one more woman than me".--------------------------------------------In answer to your question, though; have you tried praying? No stamp required.There you go, proselytizing again.You do know Christians who believe in "invisible beings that live in the sky (or where ever)", you are one of them. If you cannot give a physical location (even a general location like Andromeda) of the thing that you suggest I pray to, then you have no point, its a con job and you fell for it. All you can do is impotently point a finger and piously proclaim I am wrong and I just will not buy into fairy stories, spooks and all that mythical nonsense.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++You asked an inane supercilious question - just what kind of answer were you expecting? And note - I have at no point claimed that you are wrong. That kind of certainty I will leave to you and your co-non-believers. And your lack of knowledge of Christian belief really beggars belief. No - we don't believe in "invisible beings that live in the sky" It has always been the Christian view that God is omnipresent - that he is fully present at every point in space and time. And no, that's not "nonsense" - there are plenty of particles whose position is delocalised; though you should not take that as anything more than an illustration of principle. Sun 16 Jan 2011 21:02:27 GMT+1 ExpatKS http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=94#comment624 This is now becoming joke surely? I just can't believe that with all the sound scientific evidence available, that this still goes on. Is it "Arts" v "Science" perhaps?"The Arts" believers v "The Science" realists? Sun 16 Jan 2011 21:00:01 GMT+1 in_the_uk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=94#comment623 574. At 11:59pm on 15 Jan 2011, Andrew Morton wrote:The facts, though, are these.The accepted scientific view was that the Earth was the centre of the Cosmos. That idea had not sprung from Biblical texts, but from respected thinkers in antiquityThe other bodies of the Cosmos certainly seemed to be circling the Earth (try this - it still works)There were no manifestations on the Earth to suggest that the Earth was rotating (try this - it still works. You are presently moving at 1000 mph. Do you see any evidence of this movement.)Without the knowledge that the "fixed stars" were at (optically) at an infinite distance from Earth, then the Copernican model should result in significant and measurable parallax. None had been observed. This was only overcome by the realisation that the universe is huge.One of the big weaknesses of the Ptolemaic system was its use of epicycles to explain the retrograde motion of Jupiter and Saturn. The Copernican system did not alleviate this problem.The truth of the matter is that, prior to the work Galileo published on kinematics and - most crucially - before Newton's work on gravity and Kepler's realisation that planetary orbits are elliptical rather than circular, there were plenty of facts to suggest that Copernicus was wrong. And it wasn't just the Catholic Church that took this view. The pre-eminent astronomer of the period, Tycho Brahe, rejected the Copernican system to the end of his days.The problem is that we view the Galileo story from the comfortable chair of hindsight, knowing that he was right. His contemporaries did not have that advantage----------------------------So? Some people believe in string theory others have different contesting theories. I dont see people placed under house arrest and forced to deny their own unproved theory.I have no interest in the hindsight or if he was right or wrong, I am pointing out the dicating of beliefs by the all unknowing. The people communicating with god. Sun 16 Jan 2011 20:34:52 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=93#comment622 #612. 2squirrelsI truly believe there is God who gave us the will to make our own mess and what great job we have made of that.That's good, your god does not care enough to stop you and your piers from really screwing things up. The person who said the religious people in this country are an ethnic minority should try getting the facts and figures right as they will very soon be a majority.I would not want to quote statistics but I do note that one of re-occurring themes is the continuing decrease in church attendance. Apparently when asked their religion some atheists will make a claim of religious affiliation for convenience purposes, I did as a soldier when my identity disks (dog tags) were being made up. I was not allowed to be atheist so I was C of E because I had to be something that was recognized. You theists have always been an intolerant lot. Sun 16 Jan 2011 19:36:59 GMT+1 Denisleeds http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=93#comment621 It's a bit like the friends of the establishment getting their knighthoods, except the pope did not make any big donations to any political parties in order to get his "gong" ( at leastI don't think he did). Sun 16 Jan 2011 19:33:22 GMT+1 Doug NYC Van http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=93#comment620 Well, since all religions are ridiculous boys clubs, where the men wear the dresses, and prey upon their fellow man's deepest fears and insecurities, NO, of course not. Making more religious decisions only hurts mankind as a whole.If you can't worship your favorite "spirit", without any threats of HELL if you don't,or rewards of HEAVEN if you do,free of charge,then you're just mumbling nursery rhymes at rocks on your favorite day of the weekend. Productive?Let's get real, folks.There's no invisible superheroes preparing a splendid homecoming for you.Nor are they making the fire hotter for you "sinners".Please GROW UP and leave the fairy tales behind. Sun 16 Jan 2011 19:30:25 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=93#comment619 @587. Andrew Morton proselytizing again:579. At 01:06am on 16 Jan 2011, Cariboo wrote:575. Andrew Morton proselytized:I don't know any practising Christians who believe in "invisible beings that live in the sky". If I wanted to send the deity that you kowtow to a letter, what address would I put on the envelope?---------------------------------------I have restricted myself to correcting the many inaccuracies, distortions, half-truths and atheist myths regarding it that abound on these boards. This cannot be regarded as proselytism.The burden of proof lies with you as you are making claims that something in some form exists somewhere, that no one can see hear or touch. There cannot be “inaccuracies, distortions, half-truths and atheist myths”, you can only make a faith based claim. One must remember that faith is the absolute belief in the absolutely unprovable and has landed some people in the nut house and others to rid the world of undesirables etc. etc.You are an atheist also, unless you believe in all the ancient gods on this list.http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_myth_gods_index.htmI and many other are atheistic about one more god.In answer to your question, though; have you tried praying? No stamp required.There you go, proselytizing again.You do know Christians who believe in "invisible beings that live in the sky (or where ever)", you are one of them. If you cannot give a physical location (even a general location like Andromeda) of the thing that you suggest I pray to, then you have no point, its a con job and you fell for it. All you can do is impotently point a finger and piously proclaim I am wrong and I just will not buy into fairy stories, spooks and all that mythical nonsense. Sun 16 Jan 2011 19:13:21 GMT+1 den2 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=93#comment618 Of course it's a load of rubbish............I was brought up a Catholic and have seen their hypocrisy first hand but would the BBC pose a similar question about a non Christian religion, I think NOT Sun 16 Jan 2011 18:33:44 GMT+1 leng http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=93#comment617 I admit to have a faith in humanity, and yes have winessed several things in health care, that science cannot actualy give an answer to. Yet I still wish the churches and their leaders, still try and stick to science, and not to crack pot ideas of miracles. Instead of making people martyrs, or saints, lets get down to basic try harder in loving they neighbours, and not worshiping others.Surely all the pope is doing, is making another saint to worship, yet the bible states "Though shalt not worship any god" Sun 16 Jan 2011 17:55:49 GMT+1 Hastings http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=93#comment616 Haltone wrote:It is a 'manufactured' topic by HYS; before they trumpeted this 'beatification', I doubt many Catholics never mind anyone else was even aware of it, and even if they were they probably couldn't care less. ##########It has been an ongoing issue for some time, one that I would think all church going Catholics will be very well aware of.I am an Atheist, and even I knew about this. Sun 16 Jan 2011 17:22:03 GMT+1 NewSuspect-Smith http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=92#comment615 610. At 3:41pm on 16 Jan 2011, Education not indoctrination wrote:1. Pope Benedict helped Pope JPII to cover up all the child abuse within the RC Church during his papacy, and has continued to cover it up until he was found out.---------------------------------Spot on! Catholic paedophiles were helped by the Catholic Church hierarchy to avoid exposure, just as Nazi war criminals were assisted to flee justice after the war. After the recent ' contrition ' by the Church, can we be sure that lying to a secular society about such issues is now more sinful than exposing Mother Church to potential disgrace? Perhaps, but only a skilled theologian could say. Fortunately, they have shed loads.As for canonization, one may even be a celebrity but it is conforming to Christian orthodoxy that matters and not public opinion. Thus the old saying, 'Never follow a saint home'. Sun 16 Jan 2011 17:21:37 GMT+1 Hastings http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=92#comment614 Since this is purely a matter for the Roman Catholic Church, my opinion is probably neither here nor there.However, it seems a shame they got rid of the role of Devils Advocate, which in looking for evidence against the idea of saint hood meant that many nominees did not become saints.These days, it seems to be used as a sort of postumous "thanks for your hard work," which I don't believe is what it is meant to be about. Sun 16 Jan 2011 17:19:31 GMT+1 Wicked_Witch_of_the_West_Coast http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=92#comment613 This really only concerns Catholics, so I fail to see why so many obvious non-Cathlics are getting into a tizzy over this! Sun 16 Jan 2011 16:38:16 GMT+1 brazilwatcher http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=92#comment612 Who really cares? You might as well believe in Father Christmas as believe in this nonsensical mumbo jumbo. Sometimes I wonder if we really are living in the 21st century. Sun 16 Jan 2011 16:11:05 GMT+1 2squirrels http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=92#comment611 The comments today sadden me as though I am not a holier than thou type of person I truly believe there is God who gave us the will to make our own mess and what great job we have made of that. Why is there no St Jesus if Saints are so important. I think the real miracles are when they find cures for terrible illness and manage to stop or end wars. The person who said the religious people in this country are an ethnic minority should try getting the facts and figures right as they will very soon be a majority. Sun 16 Jan 2011 15:56:29 GMT+1 2squirrels http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=92#comment610 I can think of many people who have spent their lives doing good deeds for others and sometimes appearing to work miracles but they all go unnoticed, why does it have to be a church person with so little proof and in life so mant advantages. Sun 16 Jan 2011 15:46:18 GMT+1 Education not indoctrination http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=91#comment609 1. Pope Benedict helped Pope JPII to cover up all the child abuse within the RC Church during his papacy, and has continued to cover it up until he was found out.2. JPII was no saint. He presided over the child abuse, at no point reported a member of his clergy to the police, and insisted that even HIV suffers and their partners shouldn't use condoms, thus knowingly contributing to millions of deaths because he put dogma before lives.3. There is no such thing as a miracle. How many people with Parkinson's Disease prayed to JPII and were NOT 'cured'? A lot more than were! Oh, but we don't hear anything about them.4. I wonder why Benedict might be trying to fast forward the beatification of the previous pope? It wouldn't be because he'd like the same to happen to him, would it? No, as if he'd think of such a thing...5. Beatification is a good way of trying to deflect difficult questions about why the Church has always - and continues to - put itself before others.6. JPII actively discriminated against all non-Catholics in the UK by insisting on separate RC schools, paid for by us all, that didn't (and still don't) allow gay teachers or non-Catholics in senior positions.So, all in all, he was a sinner, like any senior Catholic clergyman (since to be a senior Catholic is to condone its discriminatory and sectarian policies)...and indeed anyone who actively supports a religion that discriminates against those who are not members (so that's all major religions).A saintly person should be a person who has fought inequality and discrimination, not someone who has promoted it. Sun 16 Jan 2011 15:41:40 GMT+1 NewSuspect-Smith http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=91#comment608 A religion whose priests ritually offer adherents human flesh and blood to put into their mouths is pre-adapted to accept supernatural explanations. 'Miracles' on the path to canonization are collected posthumously rather like packet tops for a free offer. It is all very tawdry. Sun 16 Jan 2011 15:40:02 GMT+1 The_McCann http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=91#comment607 The most sensible comment yet: "Not having reviewed the evidence presented to the Holy Father, I could not possibly say." I think highly of the BBC, the BBC website & HaveYourSay: esp. since journalism in the USA has been replaced with "Infotainment". Yet publishing this thread must test the BBC's pride & integrity: the postings are so frequently & obviously ignorant & many of them seem quite hateful. Examples from just one previous posting:[A] "...smoke & mirrors from the Vatican's PR Dept...." [A1] Surely by now it's clear they _have_ no Public Relations Dept? There must be millions of Catholics praying they'll hire a good Madison Avenue PR firm.[B] ".... a distraction; a 'feel good' story...."[B1] The present Pope was in the Hitler Youth; he manned a Nazi anti-aircraft cannon shooting at US & UK bombers ---all this unwillingly. At the 1st opportunity (he says) he deserted the Wehrmacht; this, though, was when the Nazi war machine collapsed & they *all* went home. The previous Pope, back in the day, avoided the hopeless fight vs. the Nazis (or perhaps Nazi conscription) by timely entrance into a seminary. Quite a pair of Popes. The Sainthood "Fast Track" they concocted did seem designed for Mother Theresa at the time and was justified as "modernization." Und so weiter. My point: what on Earth (or elsewhere) is there to "feel good" about in all of this, for anyone Catholic or no?[C] "Their strategy - [don't] discuss the real issues facing the future of the church...."[C1] Mere presumption and blarney, this. Hey. Nobody knows what's discussed in the Vatican. Sun 16 Jan 2011 15:10:20 GMT+1 Bibi http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=91#comment606 Seriously....there is much IMPORTANT news going on at the moment. Was this thread REALLY the most relevant topic you could think of, BBC? Pleease drag your once admirable organisation into the 21st century, stop pandering to middle England and GET REAL! Sun 16 Jan 2011 14:29:59 GMT+1 Richard Kendal Leah http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=91#comment605 I have no idea why Catholics revere their Popes as "superhuman". It must be said that, if within the Catholic faithful, they wish to bestow this honour, then let them. It means nothing to me at all as I am not of the faith. Harmless really isn't it. Sun 16 Jan 2011 14:02:41 GMT+1 perkinwellbeck http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=91#comment604 maybe,i bet you if it were possibly for bbc presenters to be "beatified"soppels and marr's names would be put foward by cameron for the way they interview him and his gang of saint and sinners,they must be highly regarded at tory HQ,talk about free promotion of cost cutting tory principals,if soppel is not a fully paid up member of the right,then mrscargill is a secret admirer of hilda..remember beeb,the tories are not your masters we,the licence payer are and we are not all card carrying torys. either share the interviewing between people of different political persuasions or at least give the same curtious attitude to the left,ps.admittedly in soppels case it will be a challenge..... Sun 16 Jan 2011 13:24:09 GMT+1 dave http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=91#comment603 Hi truly is the Son of God , i should know , i have followed a few ! Sun 16 Jan 2011 12:55:32 GMT+1 NewSuspect-Smith http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=90#comment602 Yes, of course. I am particularly impressed by the current Pope. A German with a sense of humour! Sun 16 Jan 2011 12:22:17 GMT+1 Haltone http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=90#comment601 At 10:45am on 16 Jan 2011, Alasdair Campbell wrote:Does it matter? This surely is a topic for Catholics to decide because is anybody else interested.---------------------------------------------------It is not even a topic relevant to Catholics any more than if the Pope decided to grow a beard or a moustache.It is a 'manufactured' topic by HYS; before they trumpeted this 'beatification', I doubt many Catholics never mind anyone else was even aware of it, and even if they were they probably couldn't care less.Looking through a random sample of posts it is obvious certain non-believers are also interested in this topic--even if it is only to rant against Catholics. Sun 16 Jan 2011 12:17:51 GMT+1 NewSuspect-Smith http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=90#comment600 This post has been Removed Sun 16 Jan 2011 11:50:27 GMT+1 Tony of Britain http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=90#comment599 98. At 1:51pm on 14 Jan 2011, gloucester styley wrote:Wow. He 'cured' a nun of Parkinsons.I suppose that makes up for all the AIDs related deaths in Catholic dominated African nations due to his stance on condoms then?-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_There are a lot of uneducated ingrates on this HYS and this is one of them. How is the Catholic Church responsible for the spread of aids? So the Pope opposes the use of condoms. So what? Is that the only reasoned argument that you can give? Do you not think that those people in Africa should limit their sex partners? If someone in Africa uses a prostitute without using a condom then thats their own stupid fault, likewise if they sleep around. Stop trying to blame people for others faults. Oh and I am not religious, I don't believe there is a god, I just don't like to see hysterical stupidity such as the comment above from gloucester styley. Sun 16 Jan 2011 11:49:40 GMT+1 This is a colleague announcement http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=90#comment598 I think the late Pope deserves recognition for his attempts (perhaps in vain for now) to rationalise moral debate, but not for a claimed magical act, which I think would embarrass him were he alive.He did say it was important to distinguish, not between unbelievers and followers, or between religions, but twixt those who reasoned honestly with good purpose, and those who contrived positions to justify acts whose true ends were to gratify tribal hatreds and primitive instincts.He was a true intellectual in his approach. For instance he described the non-spacial or temporal point in abstraction, where truth and justice lie for the atheist, as perhaps quite akin to the abode of a moral god for a reasoning religious person. On that basis he claimed people of all religions and none could share many aims if approached with goodwill. As a non-religious I commend him for those words. Sun 16 Jan 2011 11:36:26 GMT+1 Rhiwledyn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=90#comment597 Not being a Catholic, it isn't really for me to comment. However I do find the whole notion of Saints and praying to Saints, to be completely irrelevent and bordering on idolatry. Surely an all-seeing God does not need 'little helpers' to intercede on his behalf. Sun 16 Jan 2011 11:32:26 GMT+1 thomas http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=90#comment596 In a way I feel sorry for the majority of Catholics. I don't know how this church manages to maintain such a strong hold over its followers. They are gullible in the extreme but do deserve our sincere sympathy.Somehow the clerics wield an enormous amount of power over the faithful who hang on their every word.Even faced the with unpalatable facts re Roman Catholicism they 'believe' any nonsense it purports. We are living in the 21st. Century but the Catholic Church fails miserably to move with the times.I thank God I'm a non believer!!!! Sun 16 Jan 2011 11:26:50 GMT+1 Adrian Swall http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=89#comment595 If there actually was such a thing as "God" I could understand if he was a bit annoyed by this beatification. He fixes one of his underlings and another underling gets the credit instead of him. There's gratitude for you. Sun 16 Jan 2011 11:06:50 GMT+1 Alasdair Campbell http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=89#comment594 Does it matter? This surely is a topic for Catholics to decide because is anybody else interested. Sun 16 Jan 2011 10:45:09 GMT+1 Clear Incite http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=89#comment593 470. At 11:06am on 15 Jan 2011, Anthony wrote:John Paul ll went to a prison and visited the man who fired three bullets into him which so narrowly took his life. He then held his hand and 'FORGAVE' him?Would any of the atheists or people with nothing in their sad lives but hatred and derisive Catholic comments be able to do the same.----------------------------------------------------------------------In a word - Yes. Though i cannot see the correlation between atheism and having a "sad" life. Perhaps you may be able to enlighten me.--------------------------------------------------------------------- Because majority of Christians and I would presume though I admit to no knowledge Muslims as well. Cannot understand how you can be happy with out having God or Allah in your life and essentially you must be a bad person if you haven't. I regard this personally as them being rather SAD. Sun 16 Jan 2011 10:32:37 GMT+1 Trainee Anarchist http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=89#comment592 Both popes were big mates so what do you expect.Canonized...is that when you are shot from a cannon? Sun 16 Jan 2011 10:18:09 GMT+1 Clark Griswold http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=89#comment591 A Saint is anyone who is saved. So if you've asked for forgiveness then you are a saint. If your atheist you won't understand this because you don't believe but for some reason Catholics (not all) don't read there bibles and don't know this. The pope is NOT God no matter how many times he tells himself or how many people pray to him. Oh the ignorance. Sun 16 Jan 2011 10:12:38 GMT+1 Casitian http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=89#comment590 its a matter entirely for the catholic church Sun 16 Jan 2011 09:52:34 GMT+1 chrislabiff http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=88#comment589 Jailed I'd have said. Sun 16 Jan 2011 09:52:05 GMT+1 bob http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=88#comment588 why does the geezer want to beatyfy himself i mean every one has to kiss his hand surly his pretty enough i dont know these popes think there god what an ego glad ime not a catholic. Sun 16 Jan 2011 09:09:08 GMT+1 ostryrohac http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=88#comment587 I am a catholic, and a scientist by profession. I pray to John Paul II asking him for help, because I believehe is in heaven united in love with Jesus and the Holy Trinity.I believe his union with God has not stripped him from hispersonality and freedom to take choices. When living on Earth he was a good man, whom I would not hesitateto ask for help if I lived close to him. Now I believe he hears my requests for help and am sure he does his best to do something about them. I would recommend my loved ones, my wife and my children to prayto him too. I recommend it to you too. So in that sense I am happyabout the beatification process in Rome, ... it is just toencourage people to have faith that John Paul will be tryinghelping them in heaven, by his intercession to God, now even more effectively than the help he could providewhen he lived on Earth. Sun 16 Jan 2011 08:50:00 GMT+1 Andrew Morton http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=88#comment586 579. At 01:06am on 16 Jan 2011, Cariboo wrote:575. Andrew Morton proselytized:I don't know any practising Christians who believe in "invisible beings that live in the sky". If I wanted to send the deity that you kowtow to a letter, what address would I put on the envelope?---------------------------------------I'm not sure you understand what "proselytize" means. I think I'm right in saying (though I'm open to correction) that at no point in this discussion have I actually promoted the Christian faith. I have restricted myself to correcting the many inaccuracies, distortions, half-truths and atheist myths regarding it that abound on these boards. This cannot be regarded as proselytism.In answer to your question, though; have you tried praying? No stamp required. Have a good day Sun 16 Jan 2011 08:44:26 GMT+1 Kolawole Ajao http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=88#comment585 Well, men have diverse opinions over diverse issues. Among mankind you get the Buddhist, the Christian, the Shintos, the Zoroastrians, the Ogun worshipeper, the Osun believers, the Agnostics, the Moslems (among whom you get the Dervishes, Taliban, the Sunnis, the Shiites, al-Qaeeda and various other sects not mentionable here.) So I am not surprised getting here many comments hostile to the former pontiff. It is a matter of how each and everyone feels. Sun 16 Jan 2011 08:34:48 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=88#comment584 This post has been Removed Sun 16 Jan 2011 07:36:14 GMT+1 Logrunner http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=88#comment583 Pope Paul's beatification is excellent news. He had only been gone a month or two before the magic worked. Now assuming he did have to go to Purgatory that means he could only have been there say 8 weeks. I am sure he would not have got listened to when in the sin bin.The Pope was 82 when he died so assuming he sinned at the rate of only 10% of what I do, that means I should not be down there for more than a year maximum. It might be worth considering upping my sinning rate.It also indicates a lot faster response rate to issues than when he was alive. Maybe perceived time is not the same in the afterlife and he thinks it has take him decades to seek the boss's opinion - as usual. Sun 16 Jan 2011 04:57:36 GMT+1 twistywillow http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=87#comment582 I am not Catholic. I am unsure what makes a saint. yes his holiness was a great man and yes he should be blessed for that, but sainted? Thats a whole different ball game. There seem to be a lot of saints in the Catholic faith, which is fine, but to me sainthood is something very special and sometimes less, is more. I think history should dictate this sainthood, in a hundred or so years time.. now is probably too soon, otherwise every Pope from this time on will expect beatification and eventual sainthood after they pass away,and clearly most men are not saints and nor are most priests or Popes. Sun 16 Jan 2011 03:10:54 GMT+1 Aziz Merchant http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=87#comment581 Every Muslim will agree on his one legacy - dissuading Prez Bush from going to war with Iraq and for this Pope John Paul II deserves beatification. Sun 16 Jan 2011 02:32:09 GMT+1 boskamp1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=87#comment580 letter no 553 to me you should be a saint Sun 16 Jan 2011 01:20:18 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=87#comment579 @578. miki wrote:your comment tell me your inteligent score less than my pet dog.!Listen to your dog. Sun 16 Jan 2011 01:13:10 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=87#comment578 575. Andrew Morton proselytized:I don't know any practising Christians who believe in "invisible beings that live in the sky". If I wanted to send the deity that you kowtow to a letter, what address would I put on the envelope? Sun 16 Jan 2011 01:06:10 GMT+1 miki http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=87#comment577 your comment tell me your inteligent score less than my pet dog.! Sun 16 Jan 2011 00:30:51 GMT+1 nya http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=87#comment576 Pope John Paul II told the world that the Virgin Mary saved his life after he was shot. Do any of you think that he did not pray for a cure for his Parkinson's Disease? And why did God ignore his pleas, if indeed he prayed for a cure? And why would God now accept his intercession for others? I am certain that Pope John Paul II, if there were miracles, would still be alive. So many people prayed for him when he was afflicted with Parkinson's Disease. God would not have let, what many you claim, was such a good, holy man die. Sun 16 Jan 2011 00:26:43 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=86#comment575 @548. Steve Edwards preachedI'd say it's the consensus among dim and intolerant people.Be careful, It can be construed that a person who believes in fairy stores because they are written in a book are dim. Further, denigrating the character of others that do not believe in your fairy stories, in other fairy stories or do not believe in fairys could be considered intolerant.I know plenty of intelligent people who believe in God.Intelligence and rationality do not necessarily go in lock step. Any one who has a Sunday play date with an imaginary friend is hardly rational. If one believes that being rational is prerequisite to be considered intelligent one can conclude there is an abundance of education that has and continues to be wasted. Sun 16 Jan 2011 00:07:35 GMT+1 Andrew Morton http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=86#comment574 572. At 11:36pm on 15 Jan 2011, th3_0r4cl3 wrote:548. At 6:25pm on 15 Jan 2011, Steve Edwards wrote:67. At 1:18pm on 14 Jan 2011, th3_0r4cl3 wrote:Seriously BBC, the con-census amongst rational sane people is that religion is for people who are seriously lacking mental capacity to comprehend the true nature of our universe and the overwhelming supporting evidence to the back up the scientific theories.==================================Says who? I'd say it's the concensus among dim and intolerant people. Which one are you? I know plenty of intelligent people who believe in God. The reasons for believing are many and various, including an ability to emotionally deal with the inevitability of death.And again (as I always have to on these "belittle the believer" topics) I'll state that I'm an atheist---------------------------------You do not know any Intelligent people who believe in invisible beings that live in the sky that created the world in 6 days and man out of dirt nor do you know any intelligent people that believe that a single person built an ark capable of carrying 5 million species let alone their mate. Absolute nonsense---------------------------------I don't know any practising Christians who believe in "invisible beings that live in the sky". Those practising Christians I've talked to in my years as a lay preacher generally know that the Earth is billions of years old and that humanity has evolved over millions of years. So yes, you're probably right. he probably hasn't met any intelligent people who believe any of the stuff you mention.And your point is what? Sun 16 Jan 2011 00:04:40 GMT+1 Andrew Morton http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=86#comment573 568. At 11:07pm on 15 Jan 2011, in_the_uk wrote:484. At 11:54am on 15 Jan 2011, Andrew Morton wrote:414. At 01:27am on 15 Jan 2011, moreram wrote:409. At 01:05am on 15 Jan 2011, 997478876 wrote:Wow....and I thought CNN was bad. A LOT of hateful comments. In fact, almost ALL the comments are ignorant, hateful, disgusting, and remarkably sad. Wake up people...the Church is no longer your enemy...nor has it been for 100 years. How about we blame politics or ideology for the atrocious catastrophes of the twentieth century? no...of course now. We're all content with bashing religion into a pulp...it helps us sleep soundly at night knowing that we are riding the cultural wave of non-belief; subservience with an illusion of critical thought. Sad._______________________________________________________________Sorry to burst your bubble but the earth is round. Fact.-------------------------------------------------And one that everyone's been fully aware of for the best part of 3000 years. You are aware that the "People in the Middle Ages thought the world was flat" thing is just an Atheist myth, don't you?--------------------------------However it is the church who forced the belief that the earth is the centre of the universe. Regardless of the facts.--------------------------------The facts, though, are these.The accepted scientific view was that the Earth was the centre of the Cosmos. That idea had not sprung from Biblical texts, but from respected thinkers in antiquityThe other bodies of the Cosmos certainly seemed to be circling the Earth (try this - it still works)There were no manifestations on the Earth to suggest that the Earth was rotating (try this - it still works. You are presently moving at 1000 mph. Do you see any evidence of this movement.)Without the knowledge that the "fixed stars" were at (optically) at an infinite distance from Earth, then the Copernican model should result in significant and measurable parallax. None had been observed. This was only overcome by the realisation that the universe is huge.One of the big weaknesses of the Ptolemaic system was its use of epicycles to explain the retrograde motion of Jupiter and Saturn. The Copernican system did not alleviate this problem.The truth of the matter is that, prior to the work Galileo published on kinematics and - most crucially - before Newton's work on gravity and Kepler's realisation that planetary orbits are elliptical rather than circular, there were plenty of facts to suggest that Copernicus was wrong. And it wasn't just the Catholic Church that took this view. The pre-eminent astronomer of the period, Tycho Brahe, rejected the Copernican system to the end of his days.The problem is that we view the Galileo story from the comfortable chair of hindsight, knowing that he was right. His contemporaries did not have that advantage Sat 15 Jan 2011 23:59:29 GMT+1 Enny2012 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=86#comment572 I do not believe in his healing power, but he had performed many miracles before his death. It was a miracle he survived his attacks. His way of thinking and talking, his human touch, he forgave them that wanted him to die, and visited him in prison. He was loved, and loved us all back. If the way he lead his life is not a miracle, what is? Pope John Paul 11 is the best of man. He is already among the saints, he does not need to heal anyone. Sat 15 Jan 2011 23:51:56 GMT+1 th3_0r4cl3 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=86#comment571 548. At 6:25pm on 15 Jan 2011, Steve Edwards wrote:67. At 1:18pm on 14 Jan 2011, th3_0r4cl3 wrote:Seriously BBC, the con-census amongst rational sane people is that religion is for people who are seriously lacking mental capacity to comprehend the true nature of our universe and the overwhelming supporting evidence to the back up the scientific theories.==================================Says who? I'd say it's the concensus among dim and intolerant people. Which one are you? I know plenty of intelligent people who believe in God. The reasons for believing are many and various, including an ability to emotionally deal with the inevitability of death.And again (as I always have to on these "belittle the believer" topics) I'll state that I'm an atheist---------------------------------You do not know any Intelligent people who believe in invisible beings that live in the sky that created the world in 6 days and man out of dirt nor do you know any intelligent people that believe that a single person built an ark capable of carrying 5 million species let alone their mate. Absolute nonsense Sat 15 Jan 2011 23:36:12 GMT+1 respondent http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=86#comment570 563. At 10:38pm on 15 Jan 2011, nyakairu reply to nyakairu:Understanding the Difference Between the Apparent and the RealityAn individual once asked about why many people, despite being good and pious, or apparently innocent, suffer severe tribulations in this worldly life. What wrong could a minor child or an infant, for example, commit so that he or she should have to suffer a fatal disease or even be murdered? Why do we see many good people suffering severe afflictions and calamities that they apparently do not deserve?the answer: consider a beautiful, well-kept garden and its gardener. The garden has many kinds of plants, each requiring various types of resources and care. It is well kept and healthy since the gardener meticulously takes care of it. He often clears the weeds and unnecessary plants that are harmful for the good plants. He trims branches and leaves to maintain their good health. He waters his garden when needed, or withholds water when that is harmful. It is because of such good care that his garden remains beautiful and healthy.The weeds or plants that he removes or the leaves and branches that he trims suffer much and complains. Their instincts are reactive to their own physical needs and they have little or no understanding about their surroundings, let alone the rest of the garden. They complain about their immediate needs and sufferings and do not know what is ultimately good for even themselves, much less the entire garden. Mawdudi then asked him to compare the garden with the universe and the gardener with Allah (swt).The point was well made. The analogy, however, is simplistic, for Allah’s knowledge and wisdom is infinite compared to the finite knowledge of a gardener, and His domain is infinitely wider and more complex than a garden. In this universe where an infinite number of laws, events, variables and factors are at work, each affecting others in complex ways, it is impossible for us to comprehend the full wisdom and purpose behind what we apparently observe. It is the Righteous Believers Who are Tested With CalamitiesThough calamities may hit a believer as a surprise, the reality is that by virtue of being a believer one is supposed to suffer. If a believer understands the Islamic philosophy that this life is a testing ground, then he should realize that this philosophy will be implemented for him in practice while he lives in this testing ground, and not after he dies. Tests are not just limited to see whether one performs the rituals or not. His belief and commitments to Allah (swt), and his focus in the Hereafter will be fully and thoroughly tested with calamities and afflictions to gauge the depth of his faith in his heart. Achieving Paradise will not be easy. It will come only with unshakable faith and trust in Allah (swt). Allah, may He be glorified, says: Ye shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and in your personal selves. (3:186)Do men think that they will be left alone on saying “We believe” and that they will not be tested? (29:2) Be sure We shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil); but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere. (2:155) Ah! To how many believers these verses come out as relief and solace! How many hearts of believers, with wild storms and waves in there, have calm down when remembering these verses! Day in and day out, these verses have brought the believers to tranquility and provided them with strength. Their souls then speak out: “Yea, we are tested because we are righteous believers.” To have that feeling of being a righteous believer is very comforting indeed. Do our eyes not always witness the fact that it is the righteous people who always suffer with pain, loss, and calamities one after another while the unrighteous always seem to prosper? Sat 15 Jan 2011 23:32:56 GMT+1 respondent http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=85#comment569 reply to :567. At 11:04pm on 15 Jan 2011, nyakairu who will not believe till he sees God:The koran says:And when We gave to Moses the Bookand the Salvation, that haplyyou should be guided.And when Moses said to his people,'My people, you have done wrong against yourselvesby your taking the Calf; now turn to your Creatorand slay one another. That will be better for youin your Creator's sight, and He will turn to you;truly He turns, and is All-compassionate.'And when you said, 'Moses, we will not believe theetill we see God openly'; and the thunderbolt took youwhile you were beholding.Then We raised you up after you were dead, that haplyyou should be thankful.And We outspread the cloud to overshadow you,and We sent down manna and quails upon you:'Eat of the good things wherewith We have provided you.'And they worked no wrong upon Us, butthemselves they wronged. Sat 15 Jan 2011 23:13:28 GMT+1 respondent http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=85#comment568 566. At 10:55pm on 15 Jan 2011, Nillssonn wrote:Nillssonn (Kapstadt)...A saint is a saint regardless of what people are saying. Whether the miracle was weak or not, it is irrelevant. Vox populi vox Dei!!!!!miracle is not the test! the prophet Jesus ( peace be upon him):The crowds seemed more interested in following miracles rather than the Lord!John 2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign showest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? John 2:23-25 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.Jesus (peace be uopn him )rebuked those who sought signs, wonders and miracles. Matthew 16:1-4 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would show them a sign from heaven. He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.Jesus taught that God’s word, not miracles, would bring people to Christ.Luke 16:29-31 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Sat 15 Jan 2011 23:08:46 GMT+1 in_the_uk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=85#comment567 484. At 11:54am on 15 Jan 2011, Andrew Morton wrote:414. At 01:27am on 15 Jan 2011, moreram wrote:409. At 01:05am on 15 Jan 2011, 997478876 wrote:Wow....and I thought CNN was bad. A LOT of hateful comments. In fact, almost ALL the comments are ignorant, hateful, disgusting, and remarkably sad. Wake up people...the Church is no longer your enemy...nor has it been for 100 years. How about we blame politics or ideology for the atrocious catastrophes of the twentieth century? no...of course now. We're all content with bashing religion into a pulp...it helps us sleep soundly at night knowing that we are riding the cultural wave of non-belief; subservience with an illusion of critical thought. Sad._______________________________________________________________Sorry to burst your bubble but the earth is round. Fact.-------------------------------------------------And one that everyone's been fully aware of for the best part of 3000 years. You are aware that the "People in the Middle Ages thought the world was flat" thing is just an Atheist myth, don't you?--------------------------------However it is the church who forced the belief that the earth is the centre of the universe. Regardless of the facts. Sat 15 Jan 2011 23:07:22 GMT+1 nya http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=85#comment566 I will become a believer and join any religion whose God reveals Himself/Herself. I will remain an atheist until then. Sat 15 Jan 2011 23:04:41 GMT+1 Nillssonn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=85#comment565 Nillssonn (Kapstadt)...A saint is a saint regardless of what people are saying. Whether the miracle was weak or not, it is irrelevant. Vox populi vox Dei!!!!! Sat 15 Jan 2011 22:55:51 GMT+1 holierthanthou http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=85#comment564 How does one become a saint? Does it have to be a Pope who makes a saint?I'm not applying for the position of saint, I am simply holierthanthouI think most saints go unnoticed, little old people like your granny. Sat 15 Jan 2011 22:52:26 GMT+1 respondent http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=85#comment563 What difference would it make to the pope who is already dead whether he is beatified or not? Here are some quotes i found:And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And if a heavily laden soul calls [another] to [carry some of] its load, nothing of it will be carried, even if he should be a close relative. You can only warn those who fear their Lord unseen and have established prayer. And whoever purifies himself only purifies himself for [the benefit of] his soul. And to God is the [final] destination’ the above were qouted from the korannow below i would like to say:when you are alive you your relatives and friends never hired a limousine for you to travel in but when you died they arranged to send you off in an expensive limousine - what good is it now? Sat 15 Jan 2011 22:50:20 GMT+1 nya http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2011/01/should_pope_john_paul_ii_be_be.html?page=84#comment562 That is up to the Catholics. I do not believe in miracles. Why are "miracles" happening to a few while many, including children, are horrifically dying from ravaging diseases? And why is God or gods not preventing devastating natural disasters that are causing so much death suffering and mayhem? What have we done to God to inflict on us so much suffering? Sat 15 Jan 2011 22:38:50 GMT+1