Comments for http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html en-gb 30 Tue 04 Aug 2015 05:27:15 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html ian cheese http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=99#comment667 I am afraid China has not come out of this one well. She should simply have ignored it & let it pass, that would have defused the potential for it turning into a burning issue which unites everyone who wishes ill of China. I bet you there is a lot of soul searching in the Chinese Foreign Ministry over the mishandling of this. Tue 12 Oct 2010 08:22:43 GMT+1 Vlad17 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=99#comment666 665. At 07:55am on 12 Oct 2010, powermeerkat wrote:...BTW. None other than Fidel Castro has admitted recently that "communism has been a failure"...'The big difference is that Castro dares to admit it."Castro doesn't dare. Castro has no choice.[the only communist dictator left in this world is Kim Jong-il; ill indeed.P.S. If you are so much against imperialism what don't you ask Beijing to get out of Tibet, Uighuria and Inner Mongolia?And Moscow from Caucasus, Kuril Islands and S. Karelia?[people who live in glass houses, watch RT and read L'Humanite...]---------------------------------------------------------Castro as far as I know only said that socialist system in Cuba needs some changes. It will take a lot of wording to explain to you everything what happened to Cubans due to another Peace Prize Winner with a mark on a head from Russia who now is advertizing pizza and vodka.I am genuinly interested why do you think that Kuril Islands are not a russian territory. Regarding South Carelia you probably mean ex-finnish territory. For your information USSR offered many times territorial exchange with Finland before Winter War 1940.Good was that or bad, but you know we were very close to the point when NSDAP (National Sozialistische Deutschlands Arbeits Partei that you mention above) would be telling us what is good and what is bad. To those who they would kindly leave alive of course. Obviously many Israel fans woudn’t be there.It is not about names it is about real things. Recent real thing with a falsificated rusty torpedo showed who is China. And what did you do to North Korea with all your ultra american patriotism? : ) Any more doubts with Marxism? Tue 12 Oct 2010 07:59:05 GMT+1 Tibor http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=99#comment665 "665. At 07:55am on 12 Oct 2010, powermeerkat wrote:...If you are so much against imperialism what don't you ask Beijing to get out of Tibet, Uighuria and Inner Mongolia?And Moscow from Caucasus, Kuril Islands and S. Karelia?"What I'm against of is hypocrisy only.Imperialism was/is all above beside what is happening now, which removes the moral ground to blame exclusively the 'other side'. We are all looking for the solution and in that process Cuba plays a very significant role. Naivety is not part of the game... Tue 12 Oct 2010 07:47:52 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=99#comment664 ...BTW. None other than Fidel Castro has admitted recently that "communism has been a failure"...'The big difference is that Castro dares to admit it."Castro doesn't dare. Castro has no choice.[the only communist dictator left in this world is Kim Jong-il; ill indeed.P.S. If you are so much against imperialism what don't you ask Beijing to get out of Tibet, Uighuria and Inner Mongolia?And Moscow from Caucasus, Kuril Islands and S. Karelia?[people who live in glass houses, watch RT and read L'Humanite...] Tue 12 Oct 2010 06:55:05 GMT+1 tell truth http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=99#comment663 This post has been Removed Tue 12 Oct 2010 06:48:21 GMT+1 tell truth http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=99#comment662 BBC is also afraid to tell the truth Tue 12 Oct 2010 06:34:21 GMT+1 tell truth http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=98#comment661 This post has been Removed Tue 12 Oct 2010 06:07:27 GMT+1 Tibor http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=98#comment660 '658. At 05:29am on 12 Oct 2010, powermeerkat wrote:...BTW. None other than Fidel Castro has admitted recently that "communism has been a failure"...'The big difference is that Castro dares to admit it.I wonder when the other side will admit the same about imperialism.Probably never. Those who have voice are happy with their hegemony certainly. Others, brainwashed by Fox and CNN are just frightened supporters without real references. Tue 12 Oct 2010 05:59:22 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=98#comment659 "Censorship exist in every society: for the Basques in France/Spain, for the Celtic people in Great-Britain/French Brittany, for the Inuit in Alaska/Canada/Greenland... thus not only in China."wouldn't expect a more amusing comment from PRC propagandist. :)Thanks! Tue 12 Oct 2010 05:29:26 GMT+1 AWatcher http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=98#comment658 Using Nobel committee president's own words, Liu is awarded the prize to 'highlight wide-ranging struggle for human rights in China'. If China is so oppressive as many people believe, why do so many westerners live there? The fact that more and more people from west, out of their free will, chose to live in China is a testimony that China is not what many of the ill or misinformed people here believe it is. Tue 12 Oct 2010 05:01:38 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=98#comment657 "China is away from Marxism? Who rules China – Communist Party. End of story."What in the name? Hitler's ruling party was called National SOCIALIST one. [NSDAP]Would you therefore claim that Nazis were Socialists? :-)))BTW. None other than Fidel Castro has admitted recently that "communism has been a failure". Tue 12 Oct 2010 04:29:21 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=98#comment656 Re #68 "I fear that the Nobel Committee might just have written Liu's death warrant. The Chinese government cannot now risk ever releasing him, and it might be a little more convenient to have him "disappear".On the contrary: the past experience show that such human rights and peace activists as Andrei Sakharov, Aaung San Suu kyi and Lech Walesa have avoided the worst in Soviet Union, Burma and Poland respectively, to a large extent because those countries' ruling regimes wanted to avoid a major embarrassment and international ostracism resulting from a persecution of a Nobel Peace laureat.BTW. I think that if Dalai Lama hadn't received his Nobel, he would have been "disappeared" by the Chinese regime long time ago. Tue 12 Oct 2010 04:18:21 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=98#comment655 Shiva Nazar Ahari, a prominent young female defender of human rights in Isamic Republic of Iran, received a heavy sentence of six years in prison on charges including the vague crime of "waging war against God" -- a convenient catch-all offense for anyone who criticizes the regime and its human rights record -CNN has reported.So far only a Nobel Peace Prize winner (2003) Shirin Ebadi has not been arrested by ayatollahs, and only because she's outside of Iran. Tue 12 Oct 2010 04:10:21 GMT+1 Zaheer Uddin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=97#comment654 Ref: 623, 630 & 648, IAN wrote:My understanding was whether or not LIOU deserved the Nobel Prize, hence contributors need staying within the confines of the subject. Certainly CARTER, NELSON MANDELA, ABIIDA SHIRIN deserved if only one knows their contributions as against TERRORISTS AND ROGUES who became leaders of a stolen land. It's an irony the world is gradually finding out the evil created, refer to "The Balfour Declaration written by Jonathan Schneer." Ignorance is bliss, it's the writer's problem of not knowing LIOU and many other great personalities of humanity and their recognized or unrecognized work does not entitle one to mislead or championing about an unruly land and piracy in high seas with impunity. Spelling the name of a leader of a country which is older by thousands of years than the modern world, and has never invaded a neighbourly country in the past 250 years by PROVOCATIVE twists portrays poor demeanour. Education and respect are better than bigotry and despicable remarks.Yes, LIOU like AUNG SAN, OSCAR ARIAS, THICH QUANG DO deserved the Nobel Prize. Tue 12 Oct 2010 03:02:40 GMT+1 AWatcher http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=97#comment653 Liu Xiaobo might be courageous and is willing to go through what he is going through for his belief. I doubt this alone is the reason that he was awarded the prize. The Nobel peace award committee is making a political statement in granting him this award just like it did last year. I would say this is more about stirring up political controversies than recognizing contribution towards world peace. Tue 12 Oct 2010 01:52:25 GMT+1 Tom_in_Exeter http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=97#comment652 This is completely off topic, but I want to know why you haven't invited tributes to Joan Sutherland? Time and again, we are asked to salute people I have never found in the remotest way entertaining or talented. I want the opportunity to comment on somebody who gave a lasting legacy to world art. Tue 12 Oct 2010 01:08:45 GMT+1 dr go sengciao http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=97#comment651 It all started with the decision of 5 Norwegian ex-parliament members trying to bring more "peace" in this world! All they created was more "war", certainly after bringing the Dalai Lama into this TNT-dynamite mix! Every action has a reaction, which again causes another reaction... These tribal attitudes can also be found in chimps (Pan triglotydes) and prove once more that Homo sapiens is just another ape. Although we all today descended some 200000 years ago (some 6000 generations) from the same African 'Eve' and 'Adam', we remain highly tribal and territorial, and are experts in in-grouping and out-grouping!Censorship exist in every society: for the Basques in France/Spain, for the Celtic people in Great-Britain/French Brittany, for the Inuit in Alaska/Canada/Greenland... thus not only in China. Power politics tries to maintain the hierarchy... Tue 12 Oct 2010 00:41:25 GMT+1 Enny2012 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=97#comment650 Yes! If only to annoy the Chinese Government. See how quickly they went for his wife. Mon 11 Oct 2010 23:13:38 GMT+1 Ali Haider Kazmi http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=97#comment649 Anybody would like to nominate me for Nobel prize?, BBC just censored three of my posts. Mon 11 Oct 2010 21:21:15 GMT+1 Vlad17 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=97#comment648 640. At 7:38pm on 11 Oct 2010, Tibor wrote:Attacking Marxism never reading the 'Das Kapital' is groundless just like being an atheist without reading the Bible... -------------------------------------------Tibor, thanks again for your previous post. I was very glad to read it.Something makes me think that many true communists are in fact better Christians than those who only say they are Christians. Mon 11 Oct 2010 20:10:52 GMT+1 Ian http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=96#comment647 642. At 7:58pm on 11 Oct 2010, RightUntilProvenWrong wrote:Contrary to other Nobel prizes which reward the receiver for achieved work the Peace prize seems most often to tell somebody who is working hard for peace that they approve of the rewardee's deeds up to the moment and encourage her/him to continue along the same path. It works sometimes (Walesa) but not so often (Begin, Perez, that Guatemalan woman etc.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++I think that his may have some merit,but I still help but think that payment by results would be better.Then there cannot be any accusations of partiality.One thing that I do strongly disagree with is the scepticism about Menachem Begin receiving the prize.Seeing that he took the bold move of inviting one of Israel's worst enemies,Anwar Saddat,to Jerusalem and then sat down at Camp David and negotiated and signed the Israel_Egypt Peace Treaty which has held to this very day,he richly deserved his prize for achievement.THREE CHEERS FOR ISRAEL!!! Mon 11 Oct 2010 19:46:41 GMT+1 Chen http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=96#comment646 As a genuine democratic socialist, I oppose the imprisonment of Liu Xiaobo in principle, even though I also vehemently oppose his pro-neoliberal capitalist political lines which are very reactionary and his pro-colonialist opinions. (He once ridiculously said that "China should have been colonised by the West for 300 years so that it could become more democratic") It's a matter of "I disagree with what you say, but I support your right to say them".Western capitalist countries will never really mention radical socialist activists in China though, like Zhao Dongmin who was imprisoned for doing grassroots trade unionism work, even though someone like Zhao would be more deserving of the Nobel Peace Prize objectively. The Nobel Prize after all is a capitalist institution. Mon 11 Oct 2010 19:37:05 GMT+1 dr go sengciao http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=96#comment645 The proof that the Norwegian decision by five ex-parliament members to award Liu Xiaobo the prize, is a POLITICAL decision (and not based on merit of Liu Xiabo): the Dalai Lama is starting to involve now in the discussion ! Now surely every Chinese citizen (and overseas Chinese citizen), and perhaps Liu himself, will find the decision of the Norwegian Committee a POLITICAL PROVOCATION to the Chinese government ! The "Peace" Committee in Oslo has to step down now (their decision does NOT CREATE PEACE, quite the contrary !), and give the Peace nomination away to another organization like the UN to keep some INTERNATIONAL credibility ! Perhaps the Norwegian Committee can take over the Nobel Prize for Economics from Sweden, and give the prize to the Chinese government for finding a way to improve dramatically the economic situations of more than a billion people since its open door policies starting with Deng Xiaoping. Mon 11 Oct 2010 19:30:29 GMT+1 Ali Haider Kazmi http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=96#comment644 This post has been Removed Mon 11 Oct 2010 19:20:32 GMT+1 Vlad17 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=96#comment643 638. At 7:34pm on 11 Oct 2010, ian cheese wrote:636. At 7:15pm on 11 Oct 2010, Vlad17 wrote:re-Chinese Communism-----------------------Dear Vlad,I believe we are at cross-purposes here.I am not anti-China nor anti-Russia nor anti-Communist. I am simply saying that China is only Communist in name because she uses the Communist apparatus of control & command to keep China together.----------------------------------------I apologize if I made an offensive comment for you.Regarding you scepticism about autocratic rule, I am not in position to criticize West. But every country lives its way. As long as it doesn’t come to force it is ok. Nodody has the right to force his beliefs on top of an opponent using B-2 or Grad. Mon 11 Oct 2010 19:17:50 GMT+1 Ali Haider Kazmi http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=96#comment642 This post has been Removed Mon 11 Oct 2010 19:08:26 GMT+1 RightUntilProvenWrong http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=95#comment641 Contrary to other Nobel prizes which reward the receiver for achieved work the Peace prize seems most often to tell somebody who is working hard for peace that they approve of the rewardee's deeds up to the moment and encourage her/him to continue along the same path. It works sometimes (Walesa) but not so often (Begin, Perez, that Guatemalan woman etc. Mon 11 Oct 2010 18:58:19 GMT+1 Ali Haider Kazmi http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=95#comment640 This post has been Removed Mon 11 Oct 2010 18:55:47 GMT+1 Tibor http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=95#comment639 Attacking Marxism never reading the 'Das Kapital' is groundless just like being an atheist without reading the Bible... Mon 11 Oct 2010 18:38:44 GMT+1 Vlad17 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=95#comment638 635. At 6:56pm on 11 Oct 2010, Tibor wrote:"624. At 5:24pm on 11 Oct 2010, Vlad17 wrote:Hi Tibor,To answer your question frankly, since the collapse of USSR most of its population probably has this syndrome except of course owners of elite houses in London and billion pound accounts in western banks..."That Vlad is not CCCP specific. Most of us have to work for the system and only some enjoy the benefit of it. The best you can do is to enjoy your Negru de Purkar, teach tolerance, peace and harmony, making a difference for your Moldavian homeland and for Velikaya Rus' ------------------------------------------------------------------------I know that Tibor. Soviet Moldovian SSR Negru de Purcar like Rosu de Purcar is now an elite wine here. Aeroport wines are now more accessible. I would like to ask moderators to keep this message even it is off-topic. :)My point is Marxism unites people regardless of nationality, religion and income. What can be better. As for Velikaya Rus, USSR never pretended for a hegemony. And everybody knows that here on this board Mon 11 Oct 2010 18:38:43 GMT+1 ian cheese http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=95#comment637 636. At 7:15pm on 11 Oct 2010, Vlad17 wrote:re-Chinese Communism-----------------------Dear Vlad,I believe we are at cross-purposes here.I am not anti-China nor anti-Russia nor anti-Communist. I am simply saying that China is only Communist in name because she uses the Communist apparatus of control & command to keep China together. Mon 11 Oct 2010 18:34:00 GMT+1 ian cheese http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=95#comment636 631. At 6:22pm on 11 Oct 2010, simplicity49 wrote:re-China & Self-reflectivity--------------------------------Dear Simplicity,I am not Chinese nor was meant to be. However, I believe in the traditional Chinese respect for Nature & moderation in all things. It is a pity that many ideas & concepts are lost in translation. I am partial to the Chinese & their way of doing things only because I was brought up by a Chinese governess, an 'Amah'. She was the source of all earthy wisdom! Mon 11 Oct 2010 18:23:07 GMT+1 Vlad17 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=95#comment635 632. At 6:25pm on 11 Oct 2010, ian cheese wrote:628. At 5:50pm on 11 Oct 2010, Vlad17 wrote:re-Chinese Communism--------------Dear Vlad,I understand where you are coming from.China is only Communist in name today, she uses the old Communist framework of control & command to keep China together. This is appropriate for China because the Chinese have, throughout history, only been used to an autocratic system. Which is not to say that this is right or wrong. It works for China!Greetings to you & your comrades.------------------------------------------------------------------------Dear Ian,China is a many thousand years civilization. Even before we accepted Christ they already had medicine, astronomy etc. Have you ever heard about opium wars against China conducted by your fellow Empire? By the way it was USSR who gave birth to today’s China power, atomic weaponry and space carriers.You can use your anti-communist mantra as much as you want. But Chine is like an elephant going its way. And believe me they do not care much about arrogant comments of yours. You probably even do not understand your arrogancy. Mon 11 Oct 2010 18:15:01 GMT+1 Tibor http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=94#comment634 "624. At 5:24pm on 11 Oct 2010, Vlad17 wrote:Hi Tibor,To answer your question frankly, since the collapse of USSR most of its population probably has this syndrome except of course owners of elite houses in London and billion pound accounts in western banks..."That Vlad is not CCCP specific. Most of us have to work for the system and only some enjoy the benefit of it. The best you can do is to enjoy your Negru de Purkar, teach tolerance, peace and harmony, making a difference for your Moldavian homeland and for Velikaya Rus' Mon 11 Oct 2010 17:56:20 GMT+1 ian cheese http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=94#comment633 Liu Xiaobo is a worthy winner in so far as anyone is a worthy winner of some prize for standing up to a set if ideals. However, if the prize is politically motivated i.e. as a slight to China, then it is an unworthy gesture or award. Mon 11 Oct 2010 17:50:39 GMT+1 hizento http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=94#comment632 I do wonder does Norwegian politicians serving as Nobel committee members ever watched TV or read the news? This disable boy won the "China got Talent" contest. If China does not have human rights as claimed by the Nobel committee then how come a disable person not only allow to survive and cared for but allow to compete in a prestigous talent contest?http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11513459I would add in 2008 Paralympic games China top the table winning 211 medals including 89 gold, USA total 99 with 36 gold. This shows that even for a relatively poor country per capita China still manages to do a great for its people's welfare and leisure activities which enables everyone including the disabled to enjoy success. Mon 11 Oct 2010 17:39:51 GMT+1 ian cheese http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=94#comment631 628. At 5:50pm on 11 Oct 2010, Vlad17 wrote:re-Chinese Communism--------------Dear Vlad,I understand where you are coming from.China is only Communist in name today, she uses the old Communist framework of control & command to keep China together. This is appropriate for China because the Chinese have, throughout history, only been used to an autocratic system. Which is not to say that this is right or wrong. It works for China!Greetings to you & your comrades. Mon 11 Oct 2010 17:25:24 GMT+1 simplicity49 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=94#comment630 Ian Cheese wrote:4. What do you mean by 'Self-reflexicity? Some kind of exercise? If you mean being self-critical or self-aware, I can assure you that China is a very considerate Nation, which is why she does nor criticise others without provocation.______sorry for the typo. i mean self-reflectivity. go back to your own ground Daoism (the roots of chinese philosophy)your culture has more to offer than this 'propaganda'. It is an exercise, indeed, a mental excercise that help you to recognize the co-dependent nature of all things, including what you refer to as 'china's century of humiliation', the sufferings of the people, and the rise of China today and it position as a world power in the future. what does Daosim teach: what appears to be the aggression of another may well be a lesson to oneself, that is what self-reflexivity is about: observe oneself to understand oneself better.I wish you luck, I have no intention to offend or provoke any one. we can all learn from each other behaviour. Marital arts ( a product of chinese civilization) teaches you to defend yourself by taking in the aggression from the other side to learn from your own weakness, and to gently put the opponent in his/her place without harming. I often thank my opponent to expose my weakness, why? it help me to improve myself as a human being. Empire rise and falls..ask yourself why? can China not care out the rest of the world when it economy depends on what the world outside China is doing? Can China as the world's factory expect to ride endlessly on the fever of consumerism? can China afford not to give 'a toss' about what the world think? I doubt.best wishes to you...and with respect. Mon 11 Oct 2010 17:22:34 GMT+1 Ian http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=94#comment629 To be absolutely honest,I'd never previously heard of Mr Liu am still not aware of any instance of him having actually increased the peace of the world.I'm also not aware of any way that Obama increased the peace of the world before he received the prize,and,for that matter,since.To me this seems a strange thing.People are awarded the Nobel Peace Prize because they come to the notice of the committee which decides that their aims are laudable by some criteria and that they MIGHT do something in the future to increase world peace.So might I but I really don't think that I presently deserve a prize. Mon 11 Oct 2010 17:21:31 GMT+1 dr go sengciao http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=94#comment628 Reply to #598 (hans kuijper), #605 (powermeerkat), #610 (ian cheese).Lee Tsung-Dao (born Shanghai 1926), Yang Chen-Ning (born Hefei 1922) did win the Physics Nobel Prizes in 1957 for their work in the breaking of parity laws in the weak atomic force, one of the first examples of spontaneous symmetry breaking. Spontaneous symmetry breaking is the reason why every matter exists in the universe, in fact it explains why everything was created in the universe: God in Action !Other Chinese people who would deserve a Physics Nobel Prize are Madame Wu (she conducted the experiment to prove spontaneous symmetry breaking) and Qian Xuesen (born Hangzhou 1911). The last one is in fact the godfather of Chinese Rocket Science. He studied with Von Braun under Theodore Von Karman, and after WWII he was one the founders of the Jet Prepulsion Laboratory (the one responsible for the Saturn V rocket and men on the moon !). In 1950 he wanted to go back to COMMUNIST China, but was put under house arrest by the USA. Finally in 1955 he could go back to his homeland, and his team takes all the credits for the Long March Rockets (which put Chinese men in space, the third country after USA and USSR), but unfortunately is also responsible for the atomic bomb and the silkworm rockets. In fact the Chinese were the first to make rockets, but sadly after Emperor Yongle of the Ming Dynasty, Chinese Natural Sciences did not develop further, and people became more interested in Social Sciences, Politics and Literature !The Nobel Prizes exist only after 1900. China was in turmoil during that period (Qing Manchu dynasty, the Republic, the beginning of the People's Republic) ! Now is in fact the first time that Natural Sciences can florish again in China... and Natural Sciences can attain a level again as in the Han, Tang, Song and Ming dynasties ! According to people like Joseph Needham, Europe copied almost everything at those times (paper and paper money, gun powder and fireworks, porcelain, mapmaking,...). According to Gavin Menzies, the Chinese fleet under admiral Zhenghe already navigated all the seas and oceans (including Northern Ice Sea and the North Pole !) in 1434, long before Columbus, Vasco Da Gama, Magelhan (who acquired the Chinese navigation maps with the help of the Pope) ! Mon 11 Oct 2010 17:17:44 GMT+1 Vlad17 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=93#comment627 589. At 08:38am on 11 Oct 2010, plainspeakit wrote:513 - VLAD - You have to be joking! China's success has been because it has SIDELINED Marxism.Marxism? The USSR chaos, a pointless war in Vietnam following French withdrawal, an even more ludicrous confrontation in Korea (where the South is so now far ahead of the North economically and socially that Marxism becomes a nasty joke), Mao's Great Leap Forward that led to the death of millions, and the devastation of Cambodia during the reign of the Khmer Rouge...WHO do you think you're kidding? Chinese moves away from Marxism have brought real social change in China. It may not prove to be for the best in the long-term, but it is happening now in a country that wasted half a century under doctrinaire communism-------------------------------------------------------------------------In your message I feel some dogmas of a propaganda war from a cold war era.Red Khmers were indeed supported by Mao followers. Their crimes only mean falsification of Marxism. But socialism is not a dogma. After Stalin’s demise despite all his achivements his cult of personality was condemned during XX CPSU meeting. And that was done by people who crushed Nazism.As far as Vietnam is concerned it was USA burning people alive with napalm.You always measure quality of life by amount of consumer goods you can buy. In USSR social security was at the heights unknown to today’s westerners. Whatever your propagandists may say. China is away from Marxism? Who rules China – Communist Party. End of story. Mon 11 Oct 2010 16:50:50 GMT+1 ian cheese http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=93#comment626 616. At 3:58pm on 11 Oct 2010, simplicity49 wrote:re-China the aggressor or victim---------1. China is not asking for your sympathy nor trying to justify her actions;2.Tibet is recognised by the majority of Nations as being part of China, deny that if you will;3.The West sells more weapons in terms of currency value than China;4. What do you mean by 'Self-reflexicity? Some kind of exercise? If you mean being self-critical or self-aware, I can assure you that China is a very considerate Nation, which is why she does nor criticise others without provocation. Mon 11 Oct 2010 16:40:15 GMT+1 nya http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=93#comment625 The choice of Liu Xiaobo exposes the human rights violations in China. It is the right choice. Mon 11 Oct 2010 16:37:53 GMT+1 Jeff Phua http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=93#comment624 "There was a poll conducted by the BBC recently that 85% or so Chinese approved of the direction their government was heading."Amazing, considering that Saddam Hussein was reelected by 100% of Iaqi voters, and 100% of North Korean support Dear Leader: Kim Jong-il.And if you believe any of those results that I have a bridge in Blooklyn I'd love to sell ya. :)-------------------------------------------------------------I see that you are the only one who "refudiates" a poll done by the BBC around the time of the Beijing Olympics.And I bet you can see Russia from where you are at. Mon 11 Oct 2010 16:36:28 GMT+1 Vlad17 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=93#comment623 540. At 11:27am on 10 Oct 2010, Tibor wrote:"513. At 11:22pm on 09 Oct 2010, Vlad17 wrote:...I am sending a greeting to Chinese comrades and all progressively thinking people from all over the world from CCCP."Hi Vlad17, could you have a space-time confusion syndrome?:)----------------------------------------------------------------------Hi Tibor,To answer your question frankly, since the collapse of USSR most of its population probably has this syndrome except of course owners of elite houses in London and billion pound accounts in western banks. What is amazing when they get prosecuted for tax violations they always start hysterical screaming about human rights, democracy, totalitarism, gulags, tiananmensquares etc.:) Mon 11 Oct 2010 16:24:44 GMT+1 Ian http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=93#comment622 * 569. At 9:55pm on 10 Oct 2010, Ali Haider Kazmi wrote:Ian wrote:Mustafa Yorumcu sounds shocked that the terrorists on the Mavi Marmara met the end that they said they were after.It seems to me that if you go out of your way to try to break a legal blockade,break international law________________________________________________________________________Your apartheid was also "law" till it had a run in with the civilized world.================================================================My,Ian's reply to Ali. Firstly,I do live in the civilised world,that being a place that Arab League countries are not.Their apparent civilisation is just a thin veneer masking a backward,medieval core.Secondly,apartheid has never been enshrined in international law but the rules concerning blockades and their enforcement are and that law is very clear.The terrorist thugs on the Mavi Narmara were acting contrary to that law and Israel's forces acted within the law.Thirdly,I have never supported apartheid anywhere.South African apartheid was not MY apartheid as you imply and I resent the suggestion.I opposed it in any way that I could.Fourthly,the only apartheid that I'm aware of now is the apartheid forced on the Palestinian Arab refugees and their descendants by the Arab League that refuses them citizenship of the countries where they are and forces them to live in miserable conditions in camps in Lebanon,Jordan,Syria etc,separated from the surrounding society.No other refugees anywhere are treated in this cruel way.Take your complaints about apartheid to the Arab League.THREE CHEERS FOR ISRAEL!!! Mon 11 Oct 2010 16:15:49 GMT+1 ian cheese http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=92#comment621 This post has been Removed Mon 11 Oct 2010 16:15:00 GMT+1 John http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=92#comment620 Suppose all rights are suddenly granted to each and every individual in China, what will happen to its more than 1 billion people who won't be used to their new privilege? On the other hand, if all the governments of the world are oppressive like China, what would the world be like? Oh yes, may be Christianity will flourish again! Mon 11 Oct 2010 16:00:41 GMT+1 California Mojo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=92#comment619 615. At 3:49pm on 11 Oct 2010, lee wrote:the question is not about whether democracy is better or not, it is about whether current chinese rulers is doing a good job, or can they do much better at their current situation.---You're overthinking this. It's not about whether communism or capitalism is the right way. It's not about who's enjoying more economic success. It's not about who's fought more wars.The problem is he was put in prison for his political beliefs. It's not about the truth of his beliefs, it's about his right to hold and express them. Mon 11 Oct 2010 15:55:20 GMT+1 panchopablo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=92#comment618 The man got 11 years for calling for democracy,no wonder they awarded him the Nobel prize.And i though China was changing for the better. Mon 11 Oct 2010 15:40:21 GMT+1 doilookthatsilly http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=92#comment617 The Nobel peace prize is as relevant to today's society as the New Year Honours list or the ceremonial opening of parliament - i.e:it ain't !! Mon 11 Oct 2010 15:33:18 GMT+1 California Mojo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=92#comment616 49. At 12:23pm on 08 Oct 2010, BaldLea wrote:China's democracy should be like that of the West...controlled by big media companies.Its Human Rights should be like that of the West....locking people up without charge or trial (Guantanamo Bay), secret rendition flights (for deniable torture)and dropping bombs on civilians.I can't see the West has any right to criticise China. Perhaps it's just fear of China's economic success.---------------We, yourself included, have the right to criticize anything we please.That's the point. Mon 11 Oct 2010 15:24:02 GMT+1 simplicity49 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=92#comment615 Ian Cheese wrote:Quite frankly, you read too much into the achievements of China & the potential threat she poses. Let this be clear: China seeks to be strong in order to secure her borders & not be subject to a neo-colonialism. She has, throughout her history, been the victim of invasions, more sinned against than sinning. _________________Oh Yes, the victim card is convenient indeed, it allows for a selective understanding of history which Its southern neighbours would contest. _______________________She frankly does not give a toss about your prescriptions for her society eg. she should be a democracy, etc., as she herself does not dictate to you. ______________Oh No, she does not dictate? let the Tibetan voices be heard! _________________Don't claim perfections in this world i.e. only to be found in the West. And China is not interested in destabilising the world in order to sell weapons._____________________Oh No? where are the landmines made? in Heaven?_____If a respectful conversation is rejected and everything has to be seen from from the perspective of China Bashing by the West, then I have made my point: ABSENCE OF SELF-REFLEXIVITY which is not a good trait of a country that aspire to be leading the world into the Asian Century. I dont beleive in these claims anyhow, but thought that this forum deserve a respectful conversation.Thanks for showing me that I have wasted my time. Ciao! Mon 11 Oct 2010 14:58:05 GMT+1 lee http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=91#comment614 the question is not about whether democracy is better or not, it is about whether current chinese rulers is doing a good job, or can they do much better at their current situation. not so sure if majority of chinese people would want a chaotic 10 years for the western style democracy. US/UK bombed iraq and killed over 100000 (100 thousand, from BBC news sometimes ago, is the figure reliable, not sure, but it is a large number) ordinary people and also so many US/UK young soldiers sacrificed themself there. Is this a way for democracy? iraq is a very small contry compared with chine! I feel sad when thinking about it.reward an attention seeker, who represents less than 1ppm (1 in 1 million) of all chinese for a major peace prize is somewhat a strange thing. Mon 11 Oct 2010 14:49:38 GMT+1 California Mojo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=91#comment613 This pick actually makes sense.What happened?Did they get a new committee? Mon 11 Oct 2010 14:42:22 GMT+1 PETER_54 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=91#comment612 Finally a selection who has done something to advance human rights other than to say the sky is falling, or becuase of the colour of one's skin. He is truly deserving of the Nobel Peace Prize Mon 11 Oct 2010 14:41:38 GMT+1 Peter Dewsnap http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=91#comment611 I don't think Alfred Bobel would be very pleased since he intended the prize to go to scientists.Peter D South Carolina Mon 11 Oct 2010 14:28:12 GMT+1 BrokenBlackberry http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=91#comment610 Overall it's good that Liu Xiaobo's campaign has been highlighted in this way, but it's a mistake to assume that western-style democracy is the dream of all people in China.A very close friend was brought up in China during the Cultural Revolution but has now lived in the West for 25 years. She looks back favourably on some major aspects of life under strict communism (whilst still preferring Western Democracy, on balance, it has to be said). To some extent it may be a case of rose-tinted glasses when looking back like this, but for many people there were a number of advantages, when things were organised for them (employment, housing, education, health etc), and many were quite happy with that. Life under the newer more capitalist-style system is often much tougher for many millions of citizens.Some Chinese, like my friend, preferred on balance to take complete control of their own lives, and had to leave China to achieve this. But Western-style 'freedom' is not everyone's dream, and we should respect that viewpoint too.Like several others, this being the Nobel Peace Prize, I question whether you can automatically equate 'campaigning for democracy' with 'peace'. It is not China that is fighting wars all over the world right now. Last year, of course, the Peace Prize was awarded, somewhat hopefully, to Obama, the person in charge of waging these wars.However, it's the Nobel Committee's prize, and how they choose to award it is entirely their business, of course, even if they are quite possibly devaluing it with every passing year. Mon 11 Oct 2010 13:17:45 GMT+1 ian cheese http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=91#comment609 598. At 12:07pm on 11 Oct 2010, Hans Kuijper wrote:I'M GLAD TO LEARN THAT DR GO SENGCIAO (SEE ABOVE, COMMENT NUMBER 541) HOLDS THE VIEW THAT 'THE SWEDISH NOBEL PRIZES FOR PHYSICS, CHEMISTRY, MEDICINE, ... DESERVE INTERNATIONAL RECOGNITION'. I WONDER WHETHER DR GO CAN TELL US WHY THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM OF THE 'PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA'(THE COUNTRY ALLEGEDLY BOUND TO 'RULE THE WORLD') HASN'T BEEN PRODUCING WINNERS OF A SWEDISH NOBEL PRIZE, OR FIELDS MEDALLISTS.-----------The Nobel prize will henceforth be perceived as a kiss of death i.e. creates more problems than it solves. Mon 11 Oct 2010 13:03:39 GMT+1 stallikon http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=91#comment608 It does not matter if it is democracy or totalitarian. There is no right or wrong, better or worse. Just like in tennis, you can excel playing with single backhand or double backhand. Both Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal are champions! Mon 11 Oct 2010 13:02:59 GMT+1 Seqenenre http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=90#comment607 Whoever he is and whatver he's done or not done he has to be a better choice than Obama.Mind you, Genghis Khan would have been a better choice then he was. Mon 11 Oct 2010 12:58:32 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=90#comment606 And now Mr. Liu Xiaobo's wife has been put under the house arrest and her phone has been cut off.Now, what has Mr. Liu's WIFE have done to anger Beijing aparatchiks so much? Mon 11 Oct 2010 12:34:14 GMT+1 lee http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=90#comment605 still remember the olympic torch relay in 2008 in London. BBC, yes BBC and BskyB made up so many untrue news to rubbish China. Some other western contries did the same as well. it was so hurtful (maybe that was what they wanted).how can a decent chinese trust what westerners say about china. human rights seems to be the best weapon, and only weapon left. but how do you define human rights?1 or 100 person(s)'s (like liu xiaobo's) rights over other one billion's rights? not so sure. keep debating anyway! Mon 11 Oct 2010 12:26:58 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=90#comment604 Re #598 Han Kuijper asks: I WONDER WHETHER DR GO CAN TELL US WHY THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM OF THE 'PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA'(THE COUNTRY ALLEGEDLY BOUND TO 'RULE THE WORLD') HASN'T BEEN PRODUCING WINNERS OF A SWEDISH NOBEL PRIZE, OR FIELDS MEDALLISTS.A valid question.Just as a question why we never see any winners of Nobel prizes in science and medicine from Burma, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, Sudan and Yemen. Mon 11 Oct 2010 12:26:33 GMT+1 Slave to the System - I am not a number http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=90#comment603 Its is just as silly as giving it to Obama before he actually did anything. The Nobel prize has lost a lot of its credibility now. If anyone should have got it, it should be chinese guy that stood in front of the tanks in Tiannmen square (appologies for spelling). That man made more of a difference than any political prisoner. Mon 11 Oct 2010 12:24:29 GMT+1 TheUrbaneSpelunker http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=90#comment602 When you look at the list of recipients over the last decade the phrase "what a load of recyclable animal waste" comes to mind...Nobel must be spinning in his grave, like a catherine wheel of course! Mon 11 Oct 2010 12:17:49 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=89#comment601 Mustafa Yorumcu wrote: I am not sure I care about "Israel's right to exist". Don't worry, you're not alone.Neither does Osama ibn Laden, Bashir Assad and Ahmedinnerjacket. Mon 11 Oct 2010 12:12:31 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=89#comment600 Unworthy candidates", "will turn out to be flah in the pan " etc.Carl von OssietskyAndrei SakharovNelson MandelaLech WalesaAaung San Suu kyiShirin Ebadi.Now which of those candidates did not deserve a Nobel Peace Prize and turned out to be a "flash in the pan"? Mon 11 Oct 2010 12:07:31 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=89#comment599 "There was a poll conducted by the BBC recently that 85% or so Chinese approved of the direction their government was heading."Amazing, considering that Saddam Hussein was reelected by 100% of Iaqi voters, and 100% of North Korean support Dear Leader: Kim Jong-il.And if you believe any of those results that I have a bridge in Blooklyn I'd love to sell ya. :) Mon 11 Oct 2010 11:55:17 GMT+1 ian cheese http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=89#comment598 This post has been Removed Mon 11 Oct 2010 11:48:32 GMT+1 Hans Kuijper http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=89#comment597 I'M GLAD TO LEARN THAT DR GO SENGCIAO (SEE ABOVE, COMMENT NUMBER 541) HOLDS THE VIEW THAT 'THE SWEDISH NOBEL PRIZES FOR PHYSICS, CHEMISTRY, MEDICINE, ... DESERVE INTERNATIONAL RECOGNITION'. I WONDER WHETHER DR GO CAN TELL US WHY THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM OF THE 'PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA'(THE COUNTRY ALLEGEDLY BOUND TO 'RULE THE WORLD') HASN'T BEEN PRODUCING WINNERS OF A SWEDISH NOBEL PRIZE, OR FIELDS MEDALLISTS. Mon 11 Oct 2010 11:07:31 GMT+1 ANTI-Prejudice http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=89#comment596 The correct way to understand a country is to come near it not to dream up when you hear some negative news about the country. Mon 11 Oct 2010 10:50:33 GMT+1 Colin100 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=89#comment595 The Chinese do most things better than the rest of us. They don't have to subscribe to democracy, and particularly not the dreadful idea of pretend-democracy that badly run countries like the UK have in place.So, no, he wasn't a good choice for the Nobel Peace Prize. It's simply a a partisan political award by people this side of the Great Wall who think the Chinese should do things differently, despite the fact they do what they do very well indeed.They don't need democracy. They don't need to be told what to do. Apologies to the Chinese for this western world insult to their right of autonomy in political matters, and their right to lock dissenters away! Mon 11 Oct 2010 10:33:16 GMT+1 Tienhoa http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=88#comment594 Is he a worthy winnerWho do you think should have won the award? Was the Nobel Committee right to award the prize to Liu Xiaobo? How does the Nobel Peace Prize contribute to world peace?It is difficult to answer these questions because the winner of Nobel Peace Prize is always controversial. The issues such as human rights and democracy are the most influence on the decision of the committee. Different ideologies between the West, US and the rest of the world are the main reason for the dispute. Mon 11 Oct 2010 09:43:39 GMT+1 D http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=88#comment593 Oh let the China bashing begin, China is investing money round the world and the US and Europe are again starting their negative propoganda, well the truth is its not china going round dropping bombs on civilians and torturing citizens of other countries, its not china threatening nuclear attacks on non nuke countries, and its not China that is challenging democracy in other countries, and looting other countries! I think the Allies need to look at what they have done in other peoples borders before questioning chinas actions within its borders! Mon 11 Oct 2010 08:44:29 GMT+1 U14644116 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=88#comment592 This post has been Removed Mon 11 Oct 2010 08:39:08 GMT+1 Tibor http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=88#comment591 "590. At 08:42am on 11 Oct 2010, simplicity49 wrote:...weak leaders cannot rid themselves of their ego and keep the world in perpetual danger, making 'perpetual peace' a distant dream for human kind....China is to be recognized as a 'great civilization' as claimed by many... Greed does indeed enslaves, as great Chinese philosophers recognize. Pray for world peace and wisdom, not greed, among the leaders"I like this.Just to pray won't do much however... Mon 11 Oct 2010 08:18:56 GMT+1 ian cheese http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=88#comment590 590. At 08:42am on 11 Oct 2010, simplicity49 wrote:re-China's role in the world------------------------------- Quite frankly, you read too much into the achievements of China & the potential threat she poses. Let this be clear: China seeks to be strong in order to secure her borders & not be subject to a neo-colonialism. She has, throughout her history, been the victim of invasions, more sinned against than sinning. She frankly does not give a toss about your prescriptions for her society eg. she should be a democracy, etc., as she herself does not dictate to you. Don't claim perfections in this world i.e. only to be found in the West. And China is not interested in destabilising the world in order to sell weapons. Mon 11 Oct 2010 08:11:19 GMT+1 simplicity49 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=88#comment589 When will we learn that a great leader inspires others? China's transformation in the last decades does inspire many people, but it also raises fear when the leadership does not show any signs of self-reflexivity. China's anger about the Nobel prize for peace this year being awarded to Liu Xiaobo, reflects this absence of self-reflexivity: in other words as the society is being transformed so must the way of thinking. Many China's neighboring countries await this maturity of an inspiring leader, and not one which creates new imperial relationships, the type of relationship that China calls 'a century of humiliation'.Rather than seeing this controversial award as an attempt to 'provoke' China, or to pressure the leadership into a certain type of economic policy, there are reasons to think in positive term: the award can be seen as an invitation to China, the proud China for its history and achievement, and the proud chinese people, to think differently and with responsibility as a new player in the international field. Rather than flexing muscles, wise and great leaders guide others selflessly for a common purpose, weak leaders cannot rid themselves of their ego and keep the world in perpetual danger, making 'perpetual peace' a distant dream for human kind.If China is to be recognized as a 'great civilization' as claimed by many contributors to this forum it must show that its century-old version of humanism can make a difference to humanity.The problem is that its actions in the western, eastern and southern borders make many people doubtful. Greed does indeed enslaves, as great Chinese philosophers recognize. Pray for world peace and wisdom, not greed, among the leaders Mon 11 Oct 2010 07:42:13 GMT+1 plainspeakit http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=88#comment588 513 - VLAD - You have to be joking! China's success has been because it has SIDELINED Marxism.Marxism? The USSR chaos, a pointless war in Vietnam following French withdrawal, an even more ludicrous confrontation in Korea (where the South is so now far ahead of the North economically and socially that Marxism becomes a nasty joke), Mao's Great Leap Forward that led to the death of millions, and the devastation of Cambodia during the reign of the Khmer Rouge...WHO do you think you're kidding? Chinese moves away from Marxism have brought real social change in China. It may not prove to be for the best in the long-term, but it is happening now in a country that wasted half a century under doctrinaire communism. Mon 11 Oct 2010 07:38:50 GMT+1 ian cheese http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=87#comment587 "583. At 03:10am on 11 Oct 2010, Gary Roberts wrote:...Here in the real world, in contrast to your fantasy, Americans purchase Chinese products because slavery is (technically) illegal in their own country, and they can use the slave labor the Chinese provide to the world..."-----------------When the Americans cannot compete anymore they cry foul & castigate those who can as 'Slaves'. The Chinese are by nature hard working, not afraid to put up with hardships & thankful for little things because they have never been used to riches. By contrast, Westerners are just spoilt brats & that is why they they cannot compete with China when it comes to putting in an honest day's work. Mon 11 Oct 2010 07:16:13 GMT+1 Tibor http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=87#comment586 "583. At 03:10am on 11 Oct 2010, Gary Roberts wrote:...Here in the real world, in contrast to your fantasy, Americans purchase Chinese products because slavery is (technically) illegal in their own country, and they can use the slave labor the Chinese provide to the world..."What a convenient way to create an advantage out of impotency..! Mon 11 Oct 2010 06:35:18 GMT+1 Ariely http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=87#comment585 Nobel peace prize committee should nominate a Muslim leader that promotes equality between all religions and to stop the worldwide conflicts. Nobel peace prize should be allocated to people acting to stop or avoid ongoing wars and conflicts.Unfortunately the Nobel peace prize has become a political tool promoting the utopian ideology of Europe left wing.China is not heavily involved in the current world wide armed conflicts.Obama the charismatic "Change president""- peace prize? Mon 11 Oct 2010 06:25:50 GMT+1 Tienhoa http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=87#comment584 Different to Nobel Prizes in Medicine, Chemistry, Physics based on science, the Nobel Peace Prize is ways controversial because it depends on unscientific work. Contributing to the world's peace, democracy and human rights are considered in decision of the committee to the winner. Different ideologies between the West, the US and the rest of the world are the main reasons for the disputes. Mon 11 Oct 2010 05:41:51 GMT+1 Nesher http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=87#comment583 That prize has lost its meaning.Many people that didn't really do something towards peace got that price and so this activist.He promoted democracy and rights, not peace. Mon 11 Oct 2010 05:28:20 GMT+1 Gary Roberts http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=87#comment582 575. At 11:08pm on 10 Oct 2010, ian cheese wrote:572. At 10:36pm on 10 Oct 2010, U14633363 wrote:I am against our corporate government selling off America to the Chinese. --------------Then for Christ's sake work as hard as the Chinese! The American Companies who invest in China do so because the Chinese are a disciplined workforce & can come up with what America wants at the price Americans are happy to pay.********************************************Here in the real world, in contrast to your fantasy, Americans purchase Chinese products because slavery is (technically) illegal in their own country, and they can use the slave labor the Chinese provide to the world. Anything to avoid having to pay union wages to workers. Which also explains immigrant labor from Mexico. Mon 11 Oct 2010 02:10:14 GMT+1 Gary Roberts http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=86#comment581 Of course, China has its "noninterference in the internal matters of other nations" policy so if NK, China's neighbor, wants to torture and starve its citizens it has every right to. But when a Nobel Committee decides to bestow an award on a deserving Chinese citizen, it should be criticized .....It may be that some of us who loathe doing so are literally forced to purchase tiny bits of Chinese goods and labor in things like computers (if, that is, we want computers and light bulbs and some other cheap stuff) but the least someone can do is boycott Chinese products when there is a choice to be made. You'll be doing your and your family's health a great service by staying away from Chinese products, many of which have been demonstrated to be toxic. Mon 11 Oct 2010 01:57:39 GMT+1 Gary Roberts http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=86#comment580 444. At 1:02pm on 09 Oct 2010, Reesorville wrote:St Paul said to be obedient to the civil authorities and to honour the emperor, and as a Christian I take this seriously, and I would be very much opposed to violent revolution here, although I think that what Liu is doing is good in being a peaceful voice to speak up and recognize that the emperor, while deserving honour and obedience, is nevertheless naked. ....-------------------------------------------------In what sense is the "emperor" of China (presumably its ******** ruling elite) deserving of honor and obedience? Even for a moment? Mon 11 Oct 2010 01:48:55 GMT+1 oberst http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=86#comment579 Liu has been advocating the overthrow of existing government where a single party is in charge and the introduction of the western style demoncracy. He was not advocating freedom or world peace. Can't see how he deserves the award of the peace prize. Obviously the award has been politically movitated to riducle china, part of the attempt to prevent a rising china from becoming more prominence.The west tries to dicdatate to follow western style of demoncracy and political structure. China has different culture and social fabric and current style of government works well and suits china most, it has helped in lifting the country from obscurity to prominence and improve the living standard of its people. China believes the interests of the whole society is more important than the interest of individual and the right to live in prosperity is more important than one man one vote. Sun 10 Oct 2010 23:56:46 GMT+1 Trollicus http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=86#comment578 Wow, someone wins a peace prize and people get so angry.Discounting all the OFF TOPIC, IRRELEVANT AND NUTTY anti Israel anti-American ant-west anti-human etc (the usual HYS stuff) The Nobel peace prize is a PEACE PRIZE, given to good people who do good things to help foster peace.To be so angry and hateful towards the goal of democracy self determination and freedom is beyond me. I CONGRATULATE the people of China for this. If your from China and you think this is bad try being in the USA and listen to all the hateful garbage that is continuously spewed here. China has entered the world stage, get used to it. I would suggest that this is just the tip of the iceberg. China is now entering a phase where the world will look and criticize, this is just a tiny tiny taste of what most western countries deal with every day, and it's a PEACE prize! Wow, get a backbone, your in for a big surprise if you think this is such a big deal. Wait until tens of THOUSANDS of people start pulling the many skeletons in your closet out in the open. Hey, we get made up tabloid fantasies put up for fact by the democracy and freedom haters here on the HYS EVERY DAY. There are some religious groups(who I won't name) that will find your culture/people/beliefs incompatible to their own and start violent opposition to everything you say/do/think with fanatic and insane actions. A little prise given to someone whom your government(not necessarily your people) doesn't like isn't such a big deal as being attacked every second of every day in hateful remarks, terrorist actions and outright brutality. Like it or not China, you stepped into the camera, the lighting is awful your makeup is smeared and it's put on ten pounds, reviled your bald spot crooked nose and wrinkles. So what, join the rest of us maybe it will encourage you to exercise and eat better. We could all use a little improvement, so take it as constructive criticism and better yourself. Sun 10 Oct 2010 23:32:03 GMT+1 hongdolaxi http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=86#comment577 Chinese do not need any of the western people's appreciation, why? The answer is simple, would you ever expect your neighbours to appreciate what you have done? NO.Unless some useless loser who has a bended mind that is always seeking for appreciation. For me, NO, I am happy at where I live, I am happy about who I am living with, I am chilled at home and that's it, I don't need my useless neighbour to come to my house and tell me about my wallpaper doesn't look good or my TV is not big enough.Do you understand? Stay at YOUR HOME not MY HOME!!! Sun 10 Oct 2010 22:55:39 GMT+1 yankee doodle http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=86#comment576 575. At 11:08pm on 10 Oct 2010, ian cheese wrote:Then for Christ's sake work as hard as the Chinese! The American Companies who invest in China do so because the Chinese are a disciplined workforce & can come up with what America wants at the price Americans are happy to pay.--------------------------------------------WHAT??????? Do you really think that's all there is to it? Surely you know better. So it has nothing to do with greedy corporations, cheap labor and such huh?BUT...I was actually refering to America's debt to China, which is steadily increasing. Plus the fact that it is now legal for foreign companies (as far as I understand, even foreign state run companies) to directly contribute to American political campaigns and lobbyist.I don't where in the world you are but I bet if you took a look around your house you'd find more than a few Chinese made products. And I'm guessing you were ok with the price you paid. You've really got some nerve!! Have a look in your own backyard! Sun 10 Oct 2010 22:51:54 GMT+1 ian cheese http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=86#comment575 573. At 10:52pm on 10 Oct 2010, U14633363 wrote:And another thought to my previous ramblings. This is probably the closest America has ever come to being at the mercy of another country. Even during the Cold War, we were not pinned to ground like we are becoming now. Thanks to our own government. ----------I'm afraid that you are rambling on the edge of fantasy. America is still easily the most powerful military power & have high value technological products to market eg. in aviation: the Boeings & Dreamliners, in the Defence Industry: new generation of Stealth fighters & weapons, Software, Computing, etc. Besides, it is the American Companies who are the biggest investors in China. So please don't frighten the world by saying China is a great emrging power at variance with Western values. Sun 10 Oct 2010 22:20:19 GMT+1 ian cheese http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=85#comment574 572. At 10:36pm on 10 Oct 2010, U14633363 wrote:I am against our corporate government selling off America to the Chinese. --------------Then for Christ's sake work as hard as the Chinese! The American Companies who invest in China do so because the Chinese are a disciplined workforce & can come up with what America wants at the price Americans are happy to pay. Sun 10 Oct 2010 22:08:24 GMT+1 dr go sengciao http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=85#comment573 The Norwegian Nobel Peace Prize Committee is the only organ who decides who will be the Peace Prize Laureate ! It consists of only FIVE ex-Norwegian parliament (= Storting) members: Jagland, Five, Ronbeck, Ytterhorn and Valle. Jagland is the current president, and was a former prime minister and foreign minister of Norway. Those who want to look it up: http://nobelpeaceprize.orgThey are a disgrace to the 5 million Norwegian people and to the name of Nobel, because they select their laureates as a political mean, in this case, again pressuring the Chinese government (but also look at the previous winners like Obama before accomplishing anything, Dalai Lama,...) ! Quite contrary to the Swedish Nobel Prizes for Physics, Chemistry, Medicine... It would be much better to give the name of Nobel Peace Prize to other organisations who really represent the WORLD like the United Nations, to give INTERNATIONAL credibility back to the prize. At this moment this Norwegian Nobel Peace Prize Committee is more like a small bunch of senile Norwegian politicians drunk with political power ! Sun 10 Oct 2010 21:53:51 GMT+1 kevooo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=85#comment572 And another thought to my previous ramblings. This is probably the closest America has ever come to being at the mercy of another country. Even during the Cold War, we were not pinned to ground like we are becoming now. Thanks to our own government. Sun 10 Oct 2010 21:52:18 GMT+1 kevooo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=85#comment571 568. At 9:29pm on 10 Oct 2010, Jeff Phua wrote:"...When we have just witnessed a near global financial meltdown and the only person convicted was just a trader, do we really need anyone to tell us the scale of corruption?...Looking at it objectively, what China has done is no easy feat - to lift a quarter of the world's population out of poverty in 2 decades."--------------------------------------------Looking at this from a gloabal economic standpoint... just imagine what the global economic crisis would be like if China were a mirror image of the West (as we have tried to force it to become). We would be in some seriously deep doo doo right now. I'm not against China. They have some internal problems to work out but they've been a pretty stable international player so far.I am against our corporate government selling off America to the Chinese. Sun 10 Oct 2010 21:36:55 GMT+1 ian cheese http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=85#comment570 565. At 7:34pm on 10 Oct 2010, Ian wrote:THREE CHEERS FOR ISRAEL!!! -------------------------------I would not be shouting about that if I were you.1. The Jews are racist because they think that they are the Chosen race i.e. exclusive, & the rest are inferior;2. The definition of a terrorist simply means someone who try to achieve his/her ends by terror or bully: on this score the Israelis are pariahs as much as the people they condemn. Remember the Israeli use of phosphorous bombs on innocent women, children & babies in Lebanon? This is well documented.How can this be considered acceptable, progressive or applaudable in this day & age? Sun 10 Oct 2010 21:26:50 GMT+1 Bilbag http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=85#comment569 In the years since 1901, when the first prize was awarded, there have been many worthy candidates and winners.Liu Xiaobo is someone who deserves to be honoured for his struggles, China should be made aware that signing agreements is not something that is done to keep up appearances and that violations of agreements they are signatories too will lead to reactions from the global community.The Norwegian Nobel Committee does not pick it's laureates based on what they hope will benefit Norway nor do they award the prize with the goal of being popular.The Norwegian Nobel Committee is in fact independent from the Norwegian Government (Regjering) and although it is appointed by the parliament, the Storting, it does not represent nor report to either of them.The Prize always creates controversy, for one reason or another.Last years laureate has shown us that people are unaware of the conditions made by Nobel in his will, though most laureates, like Liu Xiaobo, have often decades of work behind them to promote their cause, it's whomever deserves it based on the last year that should be the laureate.Though it may be true that Liu Xiaobo has long deserved this recognition, it's the Charter 08 and his imprisonment that make him the obvious choice this year.I hope that Liu Xiaobo will have the media's attention for a long time, in reality I fear it will only come and go as is the case with Aung San Suu Kyi.China may not wish to have other nations impose themselves into their own affairs but this award highlights the demand for China to comply with the agreements they have signed and agreed upon such as the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights" and the "International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights".I (and I dare say, my fellow Norwegians welcome) Liu Xiaobo into the honoured group that are the Nobel laureates and wish him, his wife and all of China, all the best for the future. Sun 10 Oct 2010 20:57:29 GMT+1 Ali Haider Kazmi http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/10/is_liu_xiaobo_the_right_choice.html?page=85#comment568 Ian wrote:Mustafa Yorumcu sounds shocked that the terrorists on the Mavi Marmara met the end that they said they were after.It seems to me that if you go out of your way to try to break a legal blockade,break international law ________________________________________________________________________Your apartheid was also "law" till it had a run in with the civilized world. Sun 10 Oct 2010 20:55:58 GMT+1