Comments for http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html en-gb 30 Sun 19 Apr 2015 08:24:01 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html old codger http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=99#comment1008 the best way to get people back to work is provide worth while jobs ,with some security ,for a decent wage for decent hours , how many othey countries do they have to work more than 40 hours to get a decent living wage , Tue 03 Aug 2010 08:50:24 GMT+1 MrWonderfulReality http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=99#comment1007 Will reform move people from welfare into work?NO.Its JOBS that get people INTO work, NOT REFORMS Tue 03 Aug 2010 08:21:37 GMT+1 ClaudeBalls http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=99#comment1006 Contrast the UK and France. In France if you are a single pregnant teenage girl and you approach "the state" the response you'll get is "this has nothing to do with the state, sit down with your partner and both sets of parents and decide how you're going to care for the child between you". Strangely single teenage mothers on welfare are less common in France than in the UK.This is simply one example of the "I'll do whatever I feel like and if I can't cope with the consequences I'll expect someone else to support my stupidity" state we have created. Has to change - and soon. Tue 03 Aug 2010 07:57:12 GMT+1 Keith http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=99#comment1005 Whilst people on benefits who do not own their own home get given a free house or have their rent paid by the state there will never be an incentive to take low paid employment by those with a child to use as a meal ticket. Tue 03 Aug 2010 07:00:22 GMT+1 Jock http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=99#comment1004 The system needs reforming without a doubt. Labour loved giving its voters handouts to ensure they had people to vote for them at the next election. These handouts must stop, ruthless benefit cuts are needed across the entire spectrum. Perhaps when people realise there will be no state to prop them up they will think twice about their actions. Perhaps there would be a reduction in single parent mothers as they no longer have their housing and living costs subsidised. Perhaps it will encourage long term unemployed to improve their skills and get themselves out working again when they find out the government will no longer subsidise them.The state should not be there to prop up people in the long term. The state cannot afford it. Our national benefits bill is a joke. Thanks to Labour encouraging hundreds of thousands of people to depend on their handouts. This is nothing more than criminal. Tue 03 Aug 2010 06:50:51 GMT+1 chrislabiff http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=99#comment1003 What, are employers not going to use cheap foreign labour anymore then?Duh.... Tue 03 Aug 2010 06:02:54 GMT+1 Anon_Mind http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=99#comment1002 #Complain about this comment# 7. At 04:41am on 30 Jul 2010, hubert huzzah wrote:Decades have been spent tinkering with the Unemployment Benefits System. In that time the world has been assailed by the idea that every person without a job is a workshy benefits scrounger. What about the thousands of people a year on benefits who start their own business? They tend to get ignored, primarily because they do not provide a cheap supply of labour for casualised businesses.Welfare to Work is an unjust strategy to place all of the obligation to create jobs onto the Unemployed. It assumes, like most other, Government Strategies, that there are special reasons for people being unemployed and that those special reasons are entirely the fault of the Unemployed person.While there are no long term sustainable jobs being created by employers, the whole welfare to work strategy will simply dump people into short term, insecure, low paid work. This is an essential element of the culture of worklessness: it creates dependence on employers for income. The Government end up subsidising employers to take unemployed people into temporary work with no obligation. Unlike the unemployed who have an obligation to "actively seek work", employers have no obligation to "actively seek workers". It puts the bargaining power all on the side of the Employer. Who then get the major benefit of welfare changes.There is a National Unemployed Workers Union. Cameron and Friends might like to seek them out on Facebook. They have made many practical suggestions about welfare reform and have long discussed the scandalous practices in "job creation schemes".The truth is, most unemployed people - like most employed people - are not lazy, workshy scroungers. The Department for Work and Pensions in tackling benefit fraud and overpayments estimates the amount defrauded - or overpaid - to have fallen from an estimated £2 billion in 2000-01 to £800 million in 2006-07. Of course, these figures include the actual amount of money defrauded as well as "estimates" of the cost of recovery. The actual amounts at issue are, on average, less than £2,000. Sometimes this sum is "suspected" and recorded as thought it is "real". This huge "benefits fraud bill" is the greatest piece of evidence that the Government always puts forward when saying reform is needed. Jersey accounts for £94 million of the £319m million direct loss of tax revenue which extrapolates to £4Bn losses. Tax evasion by individuals using Jersey costs at least £1.16Bn a year. Yet, the DWP and Revenue (we have an integrated tax and benefits system) rarely pursue that kind of benefits fraud as a matter of moral panic despite being able to estimate it in the same way as they do for claimants.The massive power to investigate benefit fraud as a mixture of civil and criminal law is the single most powerful part of the system that prevents claimants from actually knowing what their options to move from benefits to work actually are. This, again, prevents people from being in control of their own finances and employment. Unless the determination of benefits is done in a transparent, independent and accountable way, then no amount of reform changes anything. It simply entrenches patterns of pushing people into the first, lowest paid job that happens along. Which is likely to be with an employer who also retains a tax accountant. Tax "fraud" costs the government fifteen times more than Benefits "fraud". Yet the benefits system takes no notice of it.This suits a casualised workforce of unskilled workers. Unlike the Chinese, Indian and Brazilian economies -here the workforce is becoming more educated, skilled and valued - the UK benefits system is a hangover from the workhouse that pushes people into low paid employment for the benefit of the Employer. Without a "duty to actively seek workers" being placed onto employers, the benefits system is doomed to fail and suffer reform every few years.As to those people starting businesses from a state of being unemployed, the benefits system actively discourages it. There are lots of small rewards for leaving benefits to becoming self employed. These are, generally, much less than those for entering employment with a.n. other. But to become self employed requires things such as understanding the market, locating customers and so on. All activities that the current benefits system treats as signs of fraud. Quite simply, the system herds the unemployed into low paid, temporary, unskilled work and discourages the creation of anything other than dependence on employers.Until that changes benefit reforms that benefit will only benefit employers. Not employees, taxpayers (who are funding massive corporate welfare) or the tax and benefits system. Just the worst employers who exploit the system to gain a big dose of corporate welfare.-------------------------------------------------------------------------This comment cannot be recommended highly enough. Very insightful and most of all very accurate. Tue 03 Aug 2010 05:55:13 GMT+1 LippyLippo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=99#comment1001 There is no society, there are only individuals and families... well, these people are acting in exactly the same selfish way that society has promoted since Mrs T first made that statement, and every government ever since has propagated. Money for as little effort as possible. Look after yourself. You can never, ever earn the lifestyle that the media ram down down our throats busting your butt on minimum wage, and the ability of poorly-educated people to get a decently-paid job in our post-industrial society has been simultaneously eroded by governments that focus on profits and money before jobs. You reap what you sow. Tue 03 Aug 2010 05:44:49 GMT+1 Gholamhosain Tasbihi http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=99#comment1000 The National Welfare Social Security System is both good and bad for the development of a country: It is good for those genuine needy ones who physically or mentally can't work,at all, but still are alive and wish to live gracefully among their families,their relatives and frieands. It is bad when healthy and young peoplle who are fit and should work, use it as a scapegoat, just to run away from accepting any kinds of jobs and responsibilities in their society. For example, before that one appllies for a job, usually he/she makes a judgment and compaarison between the benefits received by the social security and the wage that he may receive from the applied work. Iain Duncan Smith radical reform is good for UK but it is difficult to put it in action among the many people of a countyry who have already been used to receive welfare benefits for decades. Tue 03 Aug 2010 05:23:48 GMT+1 Otto Sump http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=99#comment999 The answer is fairly clear. Government owned industry can provide jobs in a recession.However, government owned industry is an anathema to the Conservatives, as is the welfare state. Same old dogma, spoiling all the logic.On the other hand who wants to be driving round in a British Leyland car again? Ok, keep paying out the benefits! Tue 03 Aug 2010 00:19:06 GMT+1 mairit http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=98#comment998 To all you kind caring people who wish to eradicate benefits, I wonder if you will give me some form of accomodation when I become homeless. Will somebody help me wash my clothes, do my shopping and before I forget, get my medication from the chemist......oops you will not need to do so as I probably will not be able to afford it. God help anybody who ends up in the mess that I am in and I have worked all my life.........come on, why not come and spend a week with me........and before I forget.........I suffer from incontinence..........Anybody want to give me work.......? Before you start peeing from exulted places (scuse the pun) you might just find yourself in my position. Loss of mobility, not a day without pain, loss of short term memory and last but not least, loss of self esteem. Tue 03 Aug 2010 00:02:18 GMT+1 ruffled_feathers http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=98#comment997 "992. At 6:25pm on 02 Aug 2010, Cronkist wrote:The new ESA and Work Capability Assessment are designed to do one thing, force genuinely ill and disabled people off Incapacity Benefit and onto the cheaper Job Seekers Allowance. Is this how we should pay for the debts caused by the bankers greedy mistakes, attacking the weakest in our society?It is a disgrace and will most likely result in abject misery for thousands and even the death of some.A friend of mine has inoperable prostate cancer and has been given less than eighteen months to live. Some days he looks so ill he frightens me yet the WCA has found him "fit for work". There is little point in him trying to appeal, the appeal system is jammed solid with the weight of new cases by the time his came up he would probably be dead.Helping people back to work? God forgive us all for this terrible crime!"It is hardly surprising that they need security people at the doors of the JobCentres now.For all civil servants reading this - this is why you are so much disliked. Everyone accepts what they are told and does it. No one actually stands up. Do you wonder why everyone resents your pensions? Just read Cronkist's post again.A few years back I walked out of my job because of something I believed in. I am still proud of having taken that action. I know there are far fewer jobs around now, and I found a job shortly afterwards. And I am not suggesting that people actually leave their employment. But there are things that are worth fighting for and making a stand over no matter what. And they are nothing to do with pay, changing shifts, having to wear a uniform or not being allowed to volunteer at the Olympic Games. Mon 02 Aug 2010 23:03:21 GMT+1 John in Kent http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=98#comment996 996. At 9:00pm on 02 Aug 2010, toycollector wrote:Parliament has finished till October.Nope back on 6 September for a bit - innovation by the coalition. Mon 02 Aug 2010 21:45:19 GMT+1 Conner De Public http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=98#comment995 Parliament has finished till October.So who has a "culture of worklessness?" Mon 02 Aug 2010 20:00:15 GMT+1 sirbarrbarr http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=98#comment994 The news has recently had a number of cases where sick people have had their benefit stopped for stupid reasons - the latest a man who had a brain tumour removed and days later had his benefit stopped. There will be countless cases where benefit should be stopped, but so far this government is making mistakes and getting a reputation as the "nasty con-dems". Just once, just one time, we ought to see that there is some compassion in these people. After all, Cameron kept going on about the death of his son in the election, so Cameron - think now about compassion for other people and not just sympathy for yourself. Mon 02 Aug 2010 19:53:52 GMT+1 Jack Orion http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=98#comment993 Just a thought. Have you noticed how few people call this a Coalition Government anymore?Who is this Nick Clogg? Mon 02 Aug 2010 18:26:05 GMT+1 Sledge http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=98#comment992 Doubt it will make that much of difference in terms of reducing employment because they will need training and the governments cutting back as well but it will probably push crime rates as people try to make ends meet. What I would say is that claimants that don't have the necessary skills to gain employment need help because there are fewer and fewer unskilled and semi skilled jobs as the economy moves more and more to a knowledge based one. Don't think for one minute that manufacturing will soak up the unemployed because its now capital intensive, skilled work and high value all the low cost manufacturing has moved off shore and so it should. Why would I buy a product in the UK which costs 10 times more than one manufactured in China which is of least equal quality because consumers certainly won't want to pay the price.How many people really think that they claimants can really survive on just the dole money!! Mon 02 Aug 2010 17:46:51 GMT+1 Jack Orion http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=98#comment991 The new ESA and Work Capability Assessment are designed to do one thing, force genuinely ill and disabled people off Incapacity Benefit and onto the cheaper Job Seekers Allowance. Is this how we should pay for the debts caused by the bankers greedy mistakes, attacking the weakest in our society?It is a disgrace and will most likely result in abject misery for thousands and even the death of some.A friend of mine has inoperable prostate cancer and has been given less than eighteen months to live. Some days he looks so ill he frightens me yet the WCA has found him "fit for work". There is little point in him trying to appeal, the appeal system is jammed solid with the weight of new cases by the time his came up he would probably be dead.Helping people back to work? God forgive us all for this terrible crime! Mon 02 Aug 2010 17:25:32 GMT+1 Idont Believeit http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=98#comment990 KEEPQUIET @976 [EXTRACT]As a country we are close to bankruptcy and it's not due to the evil bankers.True it did not help.Look at the national debt and the bankers bailout.The figures don't add up, the Labour government were spending more than we had and for what?The banking crisis just brought to a head (no more unconstrained credit, even for countries).Someone tell me what actually improved under Labour and please don't quote statistics, it's my field. Give me the raw data as in the Daily Telegraph, e.g. The national debt 1997 was £350 billion. Britain's national debt to reach £1.4 trillion under 2009 Budget.Latest stats released by the Office for National Statistics on 14/07/2010 : almost £4 trillion, or £4,000bn, about four times higher than previously acknowledged. The National Audit Office (NAO) Dec 2009 review said the UK public so far has provided help totalling £850bn and in theory some will be coming back and we part own a few banks. So much for the Banking crisis making us broke, no it was the spend, spend, spend by a government who had the same reckless mentality as the banks.------------------------------------------------------------------I had thought that this statistical shroud waving had died a death but it seems not.That the Labour government increased the National Debt between 2003 and 2007 is undeniable. What you carefully omit is that they also lowered it between 1997 and 2002, even running a surplus in the budget for a couple of years. Indeed even by the time the recession hit the year on year deficit was well below the peak in the nineties caused by another recession under a Tory government. They took measures to control it just as Labour did when their recession hit. Much the same measures with much the same results. Increased spending for a time followed by tighter fiscal control to gradually reduce the deficit to manageable levels. Don't remember anyone panicking about the National Debt then or, ridiculously fretting about paying it off. The Brown government dealt with their recession, arguably worse than that of the nineties, reasonably well and coped with the financial firestorm associated with it even better (yes, perhaps because it was partly their fault).You're so busy panicking that, statitician or not, you get your figures completely mixed up. The figures you quote are available on the web but they are not like for like figures. You illustrate the 'huge' rise in National debt by quoting a start figure calculated by one method then quote a finish figure calculated in a totally different way which makes the figure much larger - some 500 to 600 billion larger. The 4 trillion figure can be found but again includes 'costs' not normally included in calculating the debt and is therefore not directly comparable with earlier calculations. I believe it also includes total potential liabilties which, as you should know as a statistician, means quite a lot of guess work. It was produced to frighten people at a guess and seems to have worked on the more imporessionable.For heavens sake read the economics blogs. Such debts are not unusual and have been successfully coped with on many occassions. But not by running around like a headless chicken. Mon 02 Aug 2010 17:12:41 GMT+1 haynonymouse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=98#comment989 988. At 5:08pm on 02 Aug 2010, DenisleedsYou really don't get the picture do you?"Just ask the hundreds of thousands of migrant workers who are coming over (legally and illegally) and finding them with no apparent bother!"APPARENT being a word you use and don't get the significance of. Like all other poor, when do they get a voice."The jobs are already here."They may well be. Are you happy to take on seasonal or piecemeal work at less than minimum wage, sleep eight to a room and hotbed to afford a roof over your head? Not get any money between working because the system takes too long to catch up with your circumstances?Yes we have been given a higher expectation as a standard of living. You give it up first and I'll watch how many follow your example.Under these circumstance, the reforms do make sense.What we should be affording all people in this country is some stability and dignity. Are you sure that your comment goes any way towards providing that? Mon 02 Aug 2010 17:05:53 GMT+1 RON HUTCH http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=97#comment988 AS THE FAREWELL STATE IS NOW BEEN SO USED AND ABUSED BY ALL AND SUNDRY.IT IS WELL PAST ITS SELL BY DATE.THIS MAY COME AS A SURPRISE TO GENERATIONS OF PAMPERED OVER INDULGED PEOPLE.NANNY STATE GIVING YOU HANDOUTS WHICH HAS SUCKED THE PRIDE AND RESOLVE FROM OUR SOULS.BEING SEDUCED BY THE WILLY POLITITIANS WHO HAVE AS MUCH INTEREST IN YOU AS THEY HAVE IN THEIR CAT.PLUS WE CANNOT AFFORD TO INDULGE OURSELVES THEIR IS NO MORE FREE MONEY. Mon 02 Aug 2010 17:02:07 GMT+1 Denisleeds http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=97#comment987 Many of my fellow HYS commenters are asking the question "Where will the jobs come from?". What do you mean come from! The jobs are already here. Want to know where? Just ask the hundreds of thousands of migrant workers who are coming over (legally and illegally) and finding them with no apparent bother! Mon 02 Aug 2010 16:08:28 GMT+1 ruffled_feathers http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=97#comment986 '986. At 3:46pm on 02 Aug 2010, Khuli wrote:"965. At 10:42am on 02 Aug 2010, anotherfakename wrote:Then all the government has to do is to learn to buy British, if it spent the billions it spends on British goods and services it would create the demand here that would drastically reduce our current 20% unemployment - for example British police cars, British ambulances, British army uniforms, British staffed census, British NHS computer program, British aid (not cash, but British goods, British services).... The government spends billions abroad each year, this is money lost to our economy and supporting others."------------------I think you'll find an equally large amount is spent by the public on foreign-produced items - cars, food, clothes, electical goods, holidays... Yes the government should buy British when it can, but everyone can do the same. Somehow I think the majority of people will buy what is cheap, regardless of source.'++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Unfortunately I think Khuli is right. When things were generally going well, but perhaps a car plant was under theat of closure, workers at the plant were interviewed as they drove out - in a car produced by another manufacturer.Generally Brits bought cheap even when times were good. They won't change, they'll just complain about the number of unemployed rising. Mon 02 Aug 2010 15:31:54 GMT+1 Khuli http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=97#comment985 "965. At 10:42am on 02 Aug 2010, anotherfakename wrote:Then all the government has to do is to learn to buy British, if it spent the billions it spends on British goods and services it would create the demand here that would drastically reduce our current 20% unemployment - for example British police cars, British ambulances, British army uniforms, British staffed census, British NHS computer program, British aid (not cash, but British goods, British services).... The government spends billions abroad each year, this is money lost to our economy and supporting others."------------------I think you'll find an equally large amount is spent by the public on foreign-produced items - cars, food, clothes, electical goods, holidays... Yes the government should buy British when it can, but everyone can do the same. Somehow I think the majority of people will buy what is cheap, regardless of source. Mon 02 Aug 2010 14:46:14 GMT+1 haynonymouse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=97#comment984 I absolutely agree with978. At 2:14pm on 02 Aug 2010, SCOTTISH-BAGGIESA friend of mine has an incurable degenerative circulation disease. He lost the lower part of a leg a couple of years ago and is due to have more removed, with the threat of losing the other leg. He missed filling in a form and spent several months having to fight the system for what is owed to him. He did not get full recompence and had to attend another medical. A round trip of 60+ miles. What did they think, he had magickally re-grown a leg?It's one thing for the system to be imperfect.It's entirely another situation for it to be downright stupid!Have they made it so stupid so as that they can scrap it altogether?I advice everyone to watch Yes Minister. It will give you a good idea of the manipulation that is used on the majority. Mon 02 Aug 2010 14:46:06 GMT+1 John Adair http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=97#comment983 Before IDS talks about cutting allowances and benefits for the unemployed and disabled, I wonder if he would allow us to browse his own allowances and expenses, passed, present and future? Mon 02 Aug 2010 14:34:56 GMT+1 haynonymouse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=97#comment982 Please understand, there ARE many forms of benefit and RIGHTLY SO.I'm all for making work pay. There's the problem.How do you make employers pay?This all appears to be a one sided attack on the defenceless.Get it into your thick heads that "being denied the right to refuse to work" is part of what constitutes the definition of SLAVERY!What is needed is incentives not the cattle prod.Whilst I believe the work ethic is laudable, those of you espousing it here seem to be unhinged to the point that I recommend that you seek professional help. You may not remember where the words "Arbeit macht frei" come from yet you certainly seem to have the same attitude. Just because you have gotten yourselves entrapped in the 'wage slave' system does not give you the right to force others into it. Wake up to the fact that just because this is the way things are, does not mean this is the way things must be. Actually I know I'm wasting the skin off my fingertips trying to get this message through to you.We would all like to think that hard work, honesty, dedication, diligence and passion will end up rewarding us with the big bucks. Yet, if you truly believe this I suggest you DUCK NOW as here comes Santa Claus giving the Tooth Fairy a lift to her next job (as a window cleaner on minimum wage!) What makes the big bucks is a bloody minded ruthlessness - a willingness to ignore the law (that's what they call 'risk taking') - and a sell your own grandmother attitude - that if we all had would have killed off society many centuries ago. If you truly believe in the 'work ethic' I urge you to seek medical help. Do aborigines pile food just because they can catch it, or do they take enough to survive. In many respects they are far more sophisticated and only the encroachment of 'civilisation' can explain the jokes that you would make of them.While I.D.S. cuts bureaucracy in one area, he creates it in another. How many people will it take to ensure his reforms will do what he says they will"Supplementing monthly household earnings through credit payments reflecting circumstances such as children, housing and disability"I note the word "disability". What is his interpretation of this word?Is it an impairment, because it does not seem to mean "not able" DIS--ABILITYI.D.S. wants to "Bring the 50 or so jobless benefits into a single "universal credit" because as he sees it, we have an "'antiquated, piecemeal' benefits system".Let's start by looking at his language. He uses the words'Antiquated' - outmoded by reason of age (because it most assuredly is not obsolete). Is UK society so shallow that it can be swayed by 'fashion'?I hang my head in my hands, because I know the answer to that one.'Piecemeal' - in pieces or fragments. Well duh! So it should be. Not everyone has the same reason for claiming and the system is supposed to tailor the benefits with the needs. Does that not make "Supplementing monthly household earnings through credit payments REFLECTING CIRCUMSTANCES such as CHILDREN, HOUSING and DISABILITY" piecemeal?Yes there are methods to streamline the system, yet throwing away one that has taken many years to hone and putting in place one that has been cobbled together at the last minute just so I.D.S. can attempt to justify his existence does not seem to me to be the right way to go.When was the last time that this sort of tinkering actualised any positive results?Albert Einstein said "The world we have made as a result of the level of thinking we have done thus far creates problems we cannot solve at the same level of thinking at which we created them". I.D.S. ain't no Einstein and has no way of thinking outside the box that big money corporations dictates to him! When was the last time you heard of a minister taking a group of pensioners or unemployed to Corfu and asking their opinions? Yet we make no fuss when The Dark Lord Mandy gets to play Prime Minister (he ruled in G.B.'s absence, while being absent himself - look it up) on a private island and comes back with record industry influenced initiatives to curtail your internet usage. Now look up the word Fascism.955. At 00:37am on 02 Aug 2010, I wrote: - please go check it out.This HYS is all about focussing you away from the REAL problems this country is going through. Stop blaming the poor for the problems that the powerful created. Mon 02 Aug 2010 14:25:49 GMT+1 alan surman http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=97#comment981 IF ANYONE WANTS MY JOB I AM RETIRING in 2yrs if you want to work hard be honest and straight then de-moted and shifted sideways cos the manegment dont like the truth and are frightened for their jobs ,you can have my job Mon 02 Aug 2010 14:22:14 GMT+1 ruffled_feathers http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=97#comment980 "978. At 2:14pm on 02 Aug 2010, SCOTTISH-BAGGIES wrote:There is a real concern that the genuinely sick will suffer because of this obsession with rooting out malingerers.That is my only major concern.If people have passed the medicals"HA HA HA!! Have you had a "medical" with ATOS? Mon 02 Aug 2010 14:14:16 GMT+1 Erkules http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=97#comment979 978 at 2.14pm - SCOTTISH BAGGIES wrote :-----I have a neice with three kiddies whose husband passed away two years ago,she gets £340 a week plus her rent and council tax paid,Mr Duncan Smith will have a deal of trouble finding her a job which 'pays',she'd have to earn nigh on £750 a week! Or £18 an hour.Those jobs just do not exist.=============================ooooooooooooo===============================What you say is true but should such recipients have the CHOICE of choosing not to work because the benefits system pays them more than working does?.The equivalent of around £40k pa for not working!. Many work long & hard for much less than this AND raise their families, perhaps with the help of some topping up.Notwithstanding genuine cases of incapacity & disability ,if a job is available & someone can sensibly do it, then they should have to do so, with benefit top up if necessary. If they refuse any reasonable job, it's wrong that they continue to receive generous benefits. Mon 02 Aug 2010 13:57:50 GMT+1 Blinkin_Annoyed http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=96#comment978 At 06:17am on 30 Jul 2010, Alan Baker wrote:Ok the Government is now saying that it will make sure people are not worse off by coming off benefits and returning to work.I am not on benefits and have a good job which I enjoy, however if I had come off benefits and was working all week only to find myself say £15 better off at the end of it I would not bother and I would stay on benefits, (just using £15 a week as an example).There is no point in getting up at all hours, commuting to work, working 8 or 9 hours a day, commuting back home and then going to bed early because you are knackered for an extra £15 a week.*********************************Five years ago I was in the unfortunate position of being unemployed for eighteen months, I can tell you now if I'd been offered a job that paid an extra £15 more than what I was receiving on benefits I would have taken their hand off. Admittedly there were others (in the minority) who attended the job centre/benefits office who adopted the attitude that they were better off on benefits and I found them to be work shy, lazy and devoid of any self respect. Mon 02 Aug 2010 13:57:19 GMT+1 Sons Of Albion http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=96#comment977 There is a real concern that the genuinely sick will suffer because of this obsession with rooting out malingerers.That is my only major concern.If people have passed the medicals,had the interviews and filled the forms they should not be continually hounded but the proposals seem to suggest that everybody on all benefits must be re-evaluated and that is not fair.The idea that anyone working must be better off is good and long overdue but I have a neice with three kiddies whose husband passed away two years ago,she gets £340 a week plus her rent and council tax paid,Mr Duncan Smith will have a deal of trouble finding her a job which 'pays',she'd have to earn nigh on £750 a week! Or £18 an hour.Those jobs just do not exist. Mon 02 Aug 2010 13:14:48 GMT+1 Erkules http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=96#comment976 At 07:16am on 01 Aug 2010, firemonkey wrote:simplescot wrote:When the unemployed earn more than the workers why work? single mum with twins £1700 pm.XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXLone Parent - aged under 18 - usual rate 51.85Lone Parent - 18 or over 65.45 Dependent Children - from birth to day before 20th birthday 57.57 Very hard to spin that into £1700 pm. Typical right wing hyperbole and scaremongering.Contrary to ill informed BS spouted by reactionary right wingers the vast majority of lone parents struggle to make ends meet and are not living a financially extravagant,hedonistic lifestyle===============================ooooooooooooo=============================Don't know about the £1700pm but a near neighbour, only last week,rather foolishly I think but we have no reason to disbelieve her, told my wife that she was in receipt of "over" £1000pm in benefits.She has 3 young children, is unmarried but lives with her partner in a very well appointed 5 bed house ( largely funded by an inheritance).Her partner recently gave his job up because "it was boring" and has a handy & very profitable sideline operated from home which he claims nets him over £20k pa.for a few hours very light ,very simple work. No harm in that, he's spotted a nice little market niche, except that it goes undeclared.They're a very pleasant young couple, both capable of working, but, by dint of being economical with the truth,are clearly milking the system. So benefit exploitation DOES exist, even if it's the minority of claimants & so long as the costs don't exceed the gains, it should be rooted out Mon 02 Aug 2010 13:01:17 GMT+1 KEEPQUIET http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=96#comment975 962. At 09:53am on 02 Aug 2010, RonC wrote:Blah blah blah, heard it all before, blah blah blah.What they haven’t explained is where are these jobs that these millions of people are going to take up?What they haven’t explained is how many more people are going to loose their jobs when their proposed cuts in public sector spending on inner city renew schemes or cuts in defence spending etc take effect?I hear many people saying yes we need these cuts blah blah but what they haven’t woken up to is the fact that cuts in public sector spending will also hit the private sector hard with the construction industry currently on a high at 6% growth being hit the hardest!So just explain to me again how they are going to get people off benefits!=================================================================By creating jobs in the long term.Short term we are in a complete and utter mess. Un-employment is going to go through the roof.Lets hope it only in the short term. Social security payments will go through the roof as well.If spending isn't controlled we'll end up broke, consequently exporters will not sell any goods (like some drug companies will not sell to Greece and other exporters are following). As a country we are close to bankruptcy and it's not due to the evil bankers.True it did not help.Look at the national debt and the bankers bailout.The figures don't add up, the Labour government were spending more than we had and for what?The banking crisis just brought to a head (no more unconstrained credit, even for countries).Someone tell me what actually improved under Labour and please don't quote statistics, it's my field. Give me the raw data as in the Daily Telegraph, e.g. The national debt 1997 was £350 billion. Britain's national debt to reach £1.4 trillion under 2009 Budget.Latest stats released by the Office for National Statistics on 14/07/2010 : almost £4 trillion, or £4,000bn, about four times higher than previously acknowledged. The National Audit Office (NAO) Dec 2009 review said the UK public so far has provided help totalling £850bn and in theory some will be coming back and we part own a few banks. So much for the Banking crisis making us broke, no it was the spend, spend, spend by a government who had the same reckless mentality as the banks. Mon 02 Aug 2010 12:12:17 GMT+1 ruffled_feathers http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=96#comment974 "969. At 11:16am on 02 Aug 2010, DibbySpot wrote:It will have no effect unless all parties start to realise several things:+ people have to be made to move to find work - most working people have to do that so the unemployed will have to do it too even if they dont like it."And the people with a couple of years to go before retirement, mortgage paid up - do you have any idea of the cost of moving? If they are claiming a basic benefit of £65 a week, over two years they will receive £6,760.If you "make" people move then I'm afraid you have to pay those costs if they cannot afford to meet them. In the past when large businesses have relocated they have paid their employees part of the relocation costs.Fair enough if you're just starting out, many of us moved to be closer to work. We now have a one size doesn't fit all situation though. Mon 02 Aug 2010 11:54:46 GMT+1 london Stock Exchange http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=96#comment973 scroungers are government workers claiming salaries of 245k a year and not taking any responsiblity.Clearly scroungers are those who have a job and claim tax releif,pension releif,and high pensions from the state.Clearly for the 11m there is no such opportunity. Mon 02 Aug 2010 11:50:22 GMT+1 ruffled_feathers http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=96#comment972 Been thinking about various posts over the weekend. I can understand businesses employing cheaper labour from abroad, and possibly people who will work harder (perhaps they won't, but if they belong to a nationality which has a reputation for working hard, that may carry them through).Then you look at EU migration and Brits believing rightly or wrongly that they cannot obtain work because of EU immigrants. Do they have any incentive to compete? Or is the incentive to fiddle their benefits?From what I can see of the methods for obtaining benefits, you need a degree, and I don't have that sort of qualification!But if benefits are to be cut, making the rules for obtaining work that will pay bills even tougher - I don't know. Mon 02 Aug 2010 11:42:33 GMT+1 europhile http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=96#comment971 It would if there were jobs to fill! Mon 02 Aug 2010 11:42:06 GMT+1 ichabod http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=96#comment970 Some writers have commented on the amount of benefits the so-called 'middle class' get.Well a good reason the middle class deserve some benefits is that they are the ones who are paying in - and it is important that they feel part of the system too - otherwise you will have real apartheid.But can you see what is happening? The government tax the middle class and then pay them some benefits back. Who gains? The answer is the civil servants and all those public sector jobs created to manage the tax and benefits system. Its like paying one person to dig holes and another to fill holes in. Its a kind of socialist redistribution from the successful/productive economy to the public sector. Trebles all round. Mon 02 Aug 2010 10:58:06 GMT+1 NutitanicPassenger http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=96#comment969 Ummm ..it's all very well but where are the jobs?? ..the only possible way you could make any difference and get everyone working is by enforcing job sharing.When I was young it was fair enough to say no able person should be unemployed .I could walk out of one job and into another on the same day. After over 30 years of continuous employment I have been unemployed for 2 years now and at least 50 people apply for every and any job I apply for. Mon 02 Aug 2010 10:20:35 GMT+1 DibbySpot http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=95#comment968 It will have no effect unless all parties start to realise several things:+ people have to be made to move to find work - most working people have to do that so the unemployed will have to do it too even if they dont like it.+ you need to have jobs to put these people into - that means looking at immigration policy and probably minimum wage levels.+ employers are going to have to be convinved to employ a "bone idle brit" who has spent 20yrs on the dole rather than a "keen as mustard" 20yr old pole - it is an easy decision for me!This is going to be very hard for many who have lived their lives on benefits. But the reality is they need to get off their backsides and work - even if it is work4benefits. Mon 02 Aug 2010 10:16:20 GMT+1 Jon http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=95#comment967 Once we again we discover that the real author of the recession is not incompetent and over paid bankers, dishonest politicians, and an industrial base that is focussed on non-industries such as finance, rather than actually making things and being innovative. No its those benefits scroungers, and all those immigrant coming to the UK, taking jobs and apparently also claiming benefits. How nice to be back in the 1980s. Mon 02 Aug 2010 10:15:17 GMT+1 piscator http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=95#comment966 The government is doing a lot of shroud waving at the moment about the Working Time Directive, which allows people to limit their hours to 48 per week. They are using junior doctors as the excuse, but basically if the directive is ended it will mean that employers will be able to force workers in all industries to do massive amounts of overtime. So, you work till you are 80, and you work 24/7, and your pay and standard of living is being officially cut. Really good news for the young, the unemployed, family life and the individual. Welcome back Queen Victoria. Maybe we could have a job creation scheme building chimneys for children to sweep. Mon 02 Aug 2010 10:00:54 GMT+1 singinginthegarden http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=95#comment965 Sircomspect: "My first job only paid £8k and there was no minimum wage. But you work hard and you put up with it. You then make yourself invaluable and prove that worth more, so that your employers want yo to do more and are prepare to pay you more."Hear hear, Sir! My first full time job (after 4 years working 30hrs a week in a shop while also studying) was just under £8k for a 40hr week, including weekends and evenings. I sucked it up and kept applying for something else - within a year I had a 9-5 on £12k - worked hard, got promoted, applied for new opportunities. The years when I was working 8am to 8pm for £15k, buying fuel on my credit card to fund commuting 4hrs a day, were tough but I saw them as paying my dues. Now, 12 years on from my first job, I'm earning mid £30ks, paying off my 'low-wage years' debts so my husband and I can maybe have a kid, and I refuse to be made to feel like a 'fat cat'.I've studied, paid my way, worked long hours, taken risks, taught myself new skills in my spare time, taken on the work of 2 people when I was just grateful to have a job to pay the mortgage, insurance, pension, bills etc. I'm VERY grateful I've never had to be on benefits - and maybe this year I will lose my job and need some temporary help (not sure I'd get it though), but I didn't fall into this more comfortable position - I went to a tough school where I shut up and got my head down, worked to stay at uni, took any job when I graduated and wasn't too precious about it being a shop job rather than a 'graduate' job. Now I'm interviewing kids for roles and they seem shocked when I explain the concept of paying your dues and viewing a role as a 'first rung'. I just hope people out there are still able to realise, yes we all work first and foremost to pay bills, but working hard to improve your situation, even if it is slow and frustrating at times, can give you so much more than Sky+. Benefits may pay the bills but will they drive you forward to improve your lot - and if you won't do it for yourself, who will? Mon 02 Aug 2010 09:57:38 GMT+1 anotherfakename http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=95#comment964 The usual brain dead tinkering with a broken system isn't going to fix anything. There are better things to do:a) Everyone legally here gets a single flat rate benefit to stop them starving - thats everyone looked after. This benefit is payable working or not. Thus if you work you are obviously better off. NEVER do we find working leaves us worse off! No other benefits are payable - at all!b) Everyone working pays a flat rate tax, this is made possible because the flat benefit above prevents us needing staggered tax rates to keep the poorer people able to work. These two things will enable us to remove vast amounts of cost in paperwork, regulation, computer systems and staff from both DSS and Revenue and customs. All the money thus saved could be used for investment in protection of the UK (i.e. the armed forces).Then all the government has to do is to learn to buy British, if it spent the billions it spends on British goods and services it would create the demand here that would drastically reduce our current 20% unemployment - for example British police cars, British ambulances, British army uniforms, British staffed census, British NHS computer program, British aid (not cash, but British goods, British services).... The government spends billions abroad each year, this is money lost to our economy and supporting others. Mon 02 Aug 2010 09:42:48 GMT+1 Idont Believeit http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=95#comment963 RonC @962Couldn't agree more Ron. The answer to your final question must inevitably be by lowering benefits and/or reducing entitlement - generally increasing the gap between benefits and paid employment (already destined to a downward trend). Not easy to do, but I suspect they will be persistent. Depressingly the majority of genuine welfare rights claimants (lets use the proper words for once) who thought they were part of a national insurance scheme will be caught in the middle of their social engineering experiment. Yes, I too thought that was the sort of thing that that Labour did and Conservatives scorned. Mon 02 Aug 2010 09:39:33 GMT+1 Seqenenre http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=95#comment962 About 500 MP's are pretty workless too, ergo effectively on benefits.let's get rid of them too. Mon 02 Aug 2010 09:37:06 GMT+1 RonC http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=95#comment961 Blah blah blah, heard it all before, blah blah blah.What they haven’t explained is where are these jobs that these millions of people are going to take up?What they haven’t explained is how many more people are going to loose their jobs when their proposed cuts in public sector spending on inner city renew schemes or cuts in defence spending etc take effect?I hear many people saying yes we need these cuts blah blah but what they haven’t woken up to is the fact that cuts in public sector spending will also hit the private sector hard with the construction industry currently on a high at 6% growth being hit the hardest!So just explain to me again how they are going to get people off benefits! Mon 02 Aug 2010 08:53:44 GMT+1 pete http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=95#comment960 with regret, people whom have become used to get up late,staying up late on the benefit system have no will to work, as most are third/fourth benefit families. the only way is to enforce them to give up that free time of doing nothing or they get no money..they have to attend training centres every day monday to friday 9 to 5, this would be paid for by those dropping out not willing to work, it would have life skill training,access to computers,and job support(the jobcentre is not allowed to help you find a job!!!)drug rehab mental health and drink support, encourage those to do volantary work in high unemplyed areas, (gardening for the elderly/rubbish pick up/repairing roads,) we would see how many are prepared to stay on the dole for such low basic funding. there is jobs i have polio and ME and i work not because of the money but because i need to contribute to society around me, as it will happen i will become too ill to work, eventually but untill that time i still have the ability to pay my own way even if i am in debt. Mon 02 Aug 2010 08:24:05 GMT+1 Nick Vinehill http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=95#comment959 In a capitalist system work is determined by whether the return on labour is profitable for the employer. The fact that some benefit payments exceed wages underlines what a flawed system capitalism is due to the lack of profitablility throughout the whole system which is the cause of the recession! Mon 02 Aug 2010 07:29:55 GMT+1 newshounduk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=94#comment958 The big argument proposed by people on benefit who could work is that they get more on benfits than they do by working.My guess is that Iain Duncan Smith will alter the balance so that it is no longer the case, which will probably involve a reduction in benefit payments as they government is trying to save money.The fly in the ointment is that there are not plenty of jobs left in the economy at the moment and potential applicants probably do not have the necessary skills to do them anyway.The uncertain financial climate has made employers reluctant to offer new jobs and our educational system often fails to prepare our children for life in the world of work.In the past we had lots of apprenticeships and on the job training but there were government training centres too.It's crucial that we invest in our young people and keep alive the skill base that we have.We need our workers to be conscientious, adaptable and multi-skilled not work shy and tied to single skill traditional practices.As a society we need a more balanced economy so that we cater for a wide range of abilities,talents and skills.Developing financial services only supports those capable of working in that area,We need to build up our agricultural, commercial and industrial infrastructures so that we are more self-reliant and less dependent on imported goods and skills.If jobs are not available we need to set up more small businesses and get the unemployed to work for their benefit money. Mon 02 Aug 2010 07:22:22 GMT+1 cruiskeen http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=94#comment957 I'm 57 years old, I've been unemployed for the last 7 years. Before that I'd been in full-time employment for 35 years. I am not presently unemployed through choice, but because I simply can't find one. Nowadays, you need all kinds of qualifications and certificates just to get a labouring job. This "culture of worklessness" as he calls it, is a direct result of politicians such as himself and the Tory Party and continued by New Labour who have either destroyed our industries or sold them off to foreign ownership. Offer me a job with a half decent weekly wage and I'll take it, if he can't do that?, he should stop attacking those on benefits who must survive on a basic government set minimum living allowance of £63 per week.If Ian Duncan Smith and the rest of them done their jobs properly in the first place, we would not be in this situation. There the one's who should be on the dole. Mon 02 Aug 2010 02:19:40 GMT+1 antman http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=94#comment956 I want to work. Let me say that again.. I WANT to work. I do have limitations in that I suffer a debilitating mental illness and as such am classified as disabled. I read some of the comments here with horror. Surely no one believes that a once successful, degree educated man considers himself to be happily 'languishing' on benefits? That this is the life I would choose for myself?I know I can't work full time, nor permanently but I tell you there are times, months at a time even, when I just wish I had something productive to do. I don't need 'incentives' I would just like the dignity of being able to work, albeit temporarily when I'm well.I can hear the Tories now ..'Well why don't you then?' I will tell you why. When I was first picked up after what was a total mental breakdown, I was placed on benefits and eventually disability. It takes almost two years to reach the paltry level of income I have. Its builds gradually as ones condition becomes deemed permanent. However if I get work and manage to stick it out for 8 weeks, I lose the lot and when I can no longer manage it because I become unwell -which is an inevitability I'm back to square one with the benefits and will be forced to live on even less than I do now. The income level is dropped back down to the starting rate.I'm not asking to make more than I do on benefits, it would be nice but *dignity* is enough of an incentive. The system as it is provides me with a disincentive in that when things go wrong for me, I am thrust into deeper levels of poverty than I am now.Ive almost completed a degree on a part time basis in psychology and I believe I could be of real benefit to others. All I ask is that this dis incentive be removed. When it is, I will- when I can manage - cheerfully support myself for months at a time.Please don't judge others, things are never quite as cut and dry as the opinionated and self satisfied,judgemental Tories posting on these pages would have you believe. Sun 01 Aug 2010 23:45:03 GMT+1 Anon_Mind http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=94#comment955 21. At 07:25am on 30 Jul 2010, sircomespect wrote:The problem is what you see in these posts - the same attitude that is now becoming the norm in this country.I am only earning £11k, £14k, 15K! Pathetic.How do we think we all started in this life?My first job only paid £8k and there was no minimum wage. But you work hard and you put up with it.You then make yourself invaluable and prove that worth more, so that your employers want yo to do more and are prepare to pay you more.The problem with the people on this blog so far are so busy moaning about their jobs and income levels that they fail to realise they are lucky to actually have a job!If you don't like it then resign and give up your job to someone who appreciates the opportunity more.13 years of Labour and we have ended with a generation who feel they are owed a living.Guess what!? You are not going to be given one.Hard work and ambition gets rewards. It can take time, but oddly the more ambitious and hard working you are more ofetn than not the greater the reward.The trouble with this latest generation now in work is that they have no concept of struggle and have ended being lazy, indolent and useless.I am now thinking that maybe Labour were right about the immigration. At least that way you get people who are actually willing to work and work hard.-------------------------------------------------------------------------I think that this comment is an absolute affront. Spout this drivel to the record numbers of hard working university graduates who are struggling to find a job let alone a job in which they can reach their full potential. The fact that we graduate with colossal debts hanging over us demonstrates the lengths we are prepared to go to in order to obtain decent jobs. Only to find that your generation in government have messed up the nation's finances, enforced an entourage of cuts in the name of austerity as a result of this and moreover wont employ us because we might threaten your positions in the companies where you hold the senior positions.Still, Im surprised that you can even see the "lazy, indolent and useless" generation from all the way up there in your ivory tower. Sun 01 Aug 2010 23:42:32 GMT+1 haynonymouse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=94#comment954 The majority of you should really try finding out about reality.To paraphrase "The News is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth"You have swallowed the media hook, line AND sinker.The problems do not stem from people that claim benefits.People on benefits barely have a voice in society [as the majority of the posts here prove] and are CERTAINLY NOT the people that have SHAPED SOCIETY.The problems stem from the greed of the already wealthy that can not rest at the first million but control the media and lobby parliament until we now live in a fascist state.I see the headlines "Productivity is up!" and I know that means that fewer people are having to work harder for a wage that is constantly on the slide due to inflation. What ever pension you thought you have is being stolen from you because of over creation of money by the fractional reserve banking system. The bailout has been the biggest scam in the history of the world.And you think that turning on people without a voice in society (and don't forget, whatever benefits they get, goes back into the economy) is going to solve the problems of the trillions stolen by bankers?AS 445. At 00:15am on 31 Jul 2010, Dave1506 reminds us:THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.THEN THEY CAME for meand by that time no one was left to speak upStop using sticks and show us the carrots!Don't tell me there is no money.There is now more money in the world than assets!It's in the hands of a very few and that is where the problems start and end! Sun 01 Aug 2010 23:37:40 GMT+1 ruffled_feathers http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=94#comment953 "867. At 4:29pm on 01 Aug 2010, spillman6 wrote:Why does Incapacity benefit continue to be paid after retirement age,I know of people who are pulling in their pension,capacity benfits and DLA,surely they are mot entitled to draw all three after retirement,I thought Incapacity was to replace a working wage"Presumably because their cost of living may be higher - higher fuel bills, special diet? No idea. But clearly someone with a disability may need more financial help than someone who is fit and capable. Sun 01 Aug 2010 22:30:04 GMT+1 Matt http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=94#comment952 950. At 9:49pm on 01 Aug 2010, iKnappy wrote:If i were out of work i would only get £67 a week, loose my house, i'd be out on the street even after paying into this system for over 25 yearsSeasoned benefit scroungers have their rent paid, enough money for 3 week holidays abroad, sky, 60" television, spend all day in the shopping center, beauty parlor.And don't tell me I'm lying or talking rubbish.I actually know them.--------------------------------------Thats called credit Sun 01 Aug 2010 21:16:34 GMT+1 Nicolas E Greensmith http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=94#comment951 I think tax credits work quite well for families in Full or part-time work. Maybe they could be extended to included single people working part time Sun 01 Aug 2010 21:07:43 GMT+1 Chnmmr http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=94#comment950 If the benefits system was set up that entering work then going back on it wasn't a nightmare, then may more part time or short duration jobs would be feasible. But really the only was to get people off benefits is to...a) Have jobs for people to fillb) Have jobs that don't require years of experience to qualify for. The number of waitress jobs, simple cleaning jobs, etc I've seen that require a year at least of experience is silly. People NEED to start somewhere. Scientists are not born with 3 years work experience.c) Benefits needs to be more dynamic. If your job is not enough to live on, then let benefits partially fill the game. If someone can have full benefits then surely half benefits and a working wage would still be good. Of course then you'll have employers that intentionally keep wages low knowing the government will pick up the rest. Sun 01 Aug 2010 21:07:41 GMT+1 iKnappy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=94#comment949 If i were out of work i would only get £67 a week, loose my house, i'd be out on the street even after paying into this system for over 25 yearsSeasoned benefit scroungers have their rent paid, enough money for 3 week holidays abroad, sky, 60" television, spend all day in the shopping center, beauty parlor.And don't tell me I'm lying or talking rubbish.I actually know them. Sun 01 Aug 2010 20:49:57 GMT+1 boodnock http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=93#comment948 What work would this be?? would it be the work currently being carried out by the 4,000,000+ plus foreigners that we let rule the roost over here?Is it any wonder there are so many jobless....there is no jobs for them! Sun 01 Aug 2010 20:49:55 GMT+1 Idont Believeit http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=93#comment947 everyone @ the_reinactment_of_the_Tower_of_BabelIn the hope of returning to the subject - what was it? Ah yes - Call my Bluff.bable: Norwegian for babble.bable: spanish for Asturian (language).Norwegians say bable, we say babble. Spanish say bable, we say asturianoBable,babble. Bable, asturiano.Let's call the whole thing off. Please. Sun 01 Aug 2010 20:33:12 GMT+1 John Campbell http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=93#comment946 Do so wish everyone in the UK was neither Right Wing/Left Wing/Left of Centre/Right of Centre.Tory Party/Labour Party/Liberal Party supporters.All of us must surely agree,Our Country,and its future is far more important than any Politician.any Political Party.We buy Newspapers,read their Editors/Owners opinion and just like sheep go down the road,they try to lead us.Our Politicians know they are in deep trouble.The UK has insufficient Tax Income and has too many expenses to balance the books.Not much choice.Increase Income.Decrease expenditure.Exactly the same choice any normal Commercial Enterprise has to make.Trouble is,an astute MD in any Commercial company,knows full well,he/she has competitors.If the product they sell is overpriced people will not buy.Agree,Political Parties do compete.They must be grateful this only occurs every five years.The real test of our current Government is quite simple.Over the next five years,Will the Income from Direct/Indirect Taxation and any new Taxes not yet invented be more than it is now?Will it be less than it is now?Will the amount of money expended over the same period show any significant decrease?Am not Political.Do not support any Party.Do admit I buy the Daily Mail.It is a very Right Wing newspaper.Also admit that their Editors /Owners opinion page is simply Poltical Propoganda.Why on earth do we have to have a Newpaper selling us Political Propoganda.Page after page of adverts selling us Holidays,few of us can afford.Sorry Daily Mail.Know you are no different from any other newspaper.You are in business to make money.Same as any other Newspaper.And no different from any Politician or any other Political Party.For the record,here is my forecast for the next five years.By 2015 the total tax intake of GB will be at least 15% higher than today.The total expenditure of GB will be at least 10% higher than it is today.And all will be absolutely wonderful.No one will question where the increase in Tax Income came from.No one will question why expenditure is well below inflation rates.And no one will notice that the only real growth industry in our country is the ability of Politicians to invent even more ways to increase the Tax Burden on normal people in normal jobs. Sun 01 Aug 2010 20:02:12 GMT+1 John_Bull http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=93#comment945 943. At 8:35pm on 01 Aug 2010, Its all Thatchers Fault wrote:· 916. At 6:42pm on 01 Aug 2010, John_Bull wrote: 906. At 6:09pm on 01 Aug 2010, The Piper at the Gates of Dawn wrote:Do you read English?, your bable has nothing to do with the question====================================================================Oh dear, Piper I thought that you might have learned from yesterday, or was that biederbeck?When seeking to 'put down’ a fellow contributor, it really doesn't help if the operative word in that ‘put down’ is spelt incorrectlyYou tend to look ridiculous.#################################### No one needs to “Put you down” you do a very good job all by yourself=======================================================================Yes that's right. According to you, Piper-bable (as if) and biederbeck, anyone that disagrees with you does that.Sweet dreams! Sun 01 Aug 2010 19:59:01 GMT+1 firemonkey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=93#comment944 "For the record – and I’ve cited the source for this statistic elsewhere – the DWP themselves say that DLA fraud is running at a mere 0.6%. Now, really, can anybody believe, based on that figure, that a purge of the some of most vulnerable people is even remotely justifiable in a sane and just society?"Courtesy of Ron's rants - "Who speaks for the chronically sick and disabled?"Contrary to the BS spouted by reactionary Daily Heil and Excess readers there is not wholesale fiddling of disability benefits going on. Sun 01 Aug 2010 19:40:04 GMT+1 U14552020 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=93#comment943 · 914. At 6:31pm on 01 Aug 2010, MellorSJ wrote: Piper (etc) writes in post #906: "Do you read English?, your bable has nothing to do with the question"Priceless!######################## Decided in your ignorance that discretion is best EhUnder the bed is a good place to hide Sun 01 Aug 2010 19:38:11 GMT+1 U14552020 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=93#comment942 · 916. At 6:42pm on 01 Aug 2010, John_Bull wrote: 906. At 6:09pm on 01 Aug 2010, The Piper at the Gates of Dawn wrote:Do you read English?, your bable has nothing to do with the question====================================================================Oh dear, Piper I thought that you might have learned from yesterday, or was that biederbeck?When seeking to 'put down’ a fellow contributor, it really doesn't help if the operative word in that ‘put down’ is spelt incorrectlyYou tend to look ridiculous.#################################### No one needs to “Put you down” you do a very good job all by yourself Sun 01 Aug 2010 19:35:02 GMT+1 KEEPQUIET http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=93#comment941 Good luck to the New Government in trying to reform the system.Lets hope they can get the correct mix. All previous governments have tried and failed miserably.Maybe a coalition government can a better fist of it than the last Labour and Tory ones.I think it was an american author who said "Left-wing politicians take away your liberty in the name of children and of fighting poverty, while right-wing politicians do it in the name of family values and fighting drugs. Either way, government gets bigger and you become less free." Sun 01 Aug 2010 19:33:11 GMT+1 The Ghosts of John Galt http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=93#comment940 839. At 2:25pm on 01 Aug 2010, MellorSJ wrote://The 'real' John Galt would laugh at Ghost// The real John Galt would know the difference between what you believe is capitalism, and what actually IS capitalism! The real John Galt would know you are a mystic of materialism! Yet again your comment betrays your true nature MellorSJ!Galt represents all that negates the kind of world you desire! You just fail to understand the nature of reality - where he knew with certainty the kind of little thugs masquerading as capitalist businessmen...you think these preachers of a subtler form of the Doctrine of Sacrifice are your saviours! Its a very odd and strange interpretation of the ideas expressed by Galt to assume he would sanction the kind of distortions represented by thatcherism, freedmanite economics or 'the great free market' as defined by such perversions of capitalism as we witness in the globalisation of corporate fascism. Some take about the amoral nature of capitalism - but Galt would not agree - in fact he would argue, as I do, that the very essence of rational behaviour is the most stringent morality! If capitalism is ever to be a reality in our world it must be predicated on a rational morality - and that rational morality must ALWAYS necessitate honesty and fairness - it must always necessitate that which is right, true and good. There is NO place for greed or exploitation in a real capitalist society. Our system never will achieve this, because it never will be real capitalism - Adam Smith was very wrong in many assumptions, as was Marx with his analysis of 19th century 'empiralism' - their major error was to describe such economics as capitalist in the first place - Besides, the point is not to understand the nature of a social economic system but to understand the error of our morality! Galt knows this, and demands a new rational morality! do YOU? Or is it too difficult to grasp that the morality you hide behind is fake. You and your creed are NOT capitalist at all, merely fakers, evaders and deceivers hiding behind the façade of respectability afforded by distortion, illusions and the mysticism of cheats. In Galts world you would be exposed as the incompetent profiteering through the exploitation of the competent. Sun 01 Aug 2010 19:30:27 GMT+1 Matt http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=93#comment939 938. At 7:39pm on 01 Aug 2010, Magi Tatcher wrote:I will tell you once you have provided me with your proposed alternatives to free market capitalism._______________________What makes you think that i endorse an alternative? Do you believe that the current system does not need reform? Do you believe we have free market capitalism with respect to, for example, the financial system? What do you think is capitalistic about bail outs? I endorse making our system work, this means regulation.Now your turn. Sun 01 Aug 2010 19:00:24 GMT+1 Simon http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=92#comment938 Benefits.... First of all, most people on incapacity benefit have worked and wish to work. The problem is that when employers find out or you tell them that you have a mental health condition usually end up locking the knife draw. On top of that what profit making company would want to employ a person with a history of mental illness and/or physical disabilty when they could be on prolonged sick leave. The moralists probably have never earn't minimum wage would be the first to scream when thier homes are burgled and they are mugged because when you remove benefits (wether we like it or not) people will resort to extreme measures. We could send them to our prisons, which are overflowing with the mentally ill. So before we start bashing the benefit scroungers, remember that everybody who gets cold weather allowance and child benefits, THOSE ARE BENEFITS. Why don't we hit the tax evaders and even we could leave the EU for one year because the billions the UK pays into that could pay off our deficit and give us change. But lets face it we don't want to effect the gravy train.... so lets hit the vulnerable who are not as articulate therefore a burden. Sun 01 Aug 2010 18:51:23 GMT+1 Magi Tatcher http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=92#comment937 936. At 7:27pm on 01 Aug 2010, Matt wrote:925. At 7:08pm on 01 Aug 2010, Magi Tatcher wrote:917. At 6:45pm on 01 Aug 2010, Matt wrote:903. At 6:04pm on 01 Aug 2010, Magi Tatcher wrote:Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.--------------------------Yeah and any fool can say nothing......what you have done is just defended governmental ineffective decisions. So tell me your ideas for job creation which will be required to get people off benefits....im sure you're not a fool.I'm more interested in your proposed alternatives to free market capitalism which I believe is the question I originally asked in response to your initial post.However, to answer your question, new jobs will be created as the UK economy expands. Granted, this may take some time and I personally don't believe it will make much difference to the benefits issue being discussed.------------------------------------What exactly makes you believe the IUK economy is going to expand? Please cite your source.I will tell you once you have provided me with your proposed alternatives to free market capitalism. Sun 01 Aug 2010 18:39:48 GMT+1 Magi Tatcher http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=92#comment936 930. At 7:17pm on 01 Aug 2010, Matt wrote:905. At 6:06pm on 01 Aug 2010, MellorSJ wrote:Matt provokes amusement____________________________All that the poster was doing was attempting to set a less than subtle trap.You are a trumpeter of a coalition government whose policies so far have done little to address symptoms and have instead operated in a similar way to a tabloid newspaper using sensationalism and falsehoods to convince the plebs to accept measures which will not fix problems and in fact will compound them.You could start to explain what these measures will do to address the lack of jobs?It was so subtle a trap that I didn't even know that I had set one! Sun 01 Aug 2010 18:32:34 GMT+1 Matt http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=92#comment935 925. At 7:08pm on 01 Aug 2010, Magi Tatcher wrote:917. At 6:45pm on 01 Aug 2010, Matt wrote:903. At 6:04pm on 01 Aug 2010, Magi Tatcher wrote:Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.--------------------------Yeah and any fool can say nothing......what you have done is just defended governmental ineffective decisions. So tell me your ideas for job creation which will be required to get people off benefits....im sure you're not a fool.I'm more interested in your proposed alternatives to free market capitalism which I believe is the question I originally asked in response to your initial post.However, to answer your question, new jobs will be created as the UK economy expands. Granted, this may take some time and I personally don't believe it will make much difference to the benefits issue being discussed.------------------------------------What exactly makes you believe the IUK economy is going to expand? Please cite your source. Sun 01 Aug 2010 18:27:13 GMT+1 U14572316 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=92#comment934 · 914. At 6:31pm on 01 Aug 2010, MellorSJ wrote: Piper (etc) writes in post #906: "Do you read English?, your bable has nothing to do with the question"Priceless!######################## They do say that ignorance is bliss, you must be very happy Sun 01 Aug 2010 18:23:56 GMT+1 Magi Tatcher http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=92#comment933 927. At 7:14pm on 01 Aug 2010, Fed Up With Thatcterites wrote:Can I please ask the followingJohn_BullMellorSJRupert SmythTo give it a restNo one is interested in your misinformation join the real worldI may not agree with what they have to say, but I'll defend their right to say it. If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter. Sun 01 Aug 2010 18:22:42 GMT+1 were doomed http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=92#comment932 924. At 7:04pm on 01 Aug 2010, MargaretBYou come up with some interesting ways to force/encourage people off benefits, however, the one question you fail to address is: Where are the jobs for all the unemployed? Perhaps we should solve the problem in the same ways as the 1930s we could have a cull in a war, perhaps this would please you,after all it would instill discipline eh! Sun 01 Aug 2010 18:19:43 GMT+1 Magi Tatcher http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=92#comment931 926. At 7:11pm on 01 Aug 2010, The Ghosts of John Galt wrote:815. At 1:24pm on 01 Aug 2010, MellorSJ:Yet again your comments betray your nature! A mystic babbler of the Doctrine of Sacrifice! If you will respond to my arguments, please have the good manner to understand the meaning of the language employed to convey the message! Do not assume your own definition of words is correct! A good dictionary may be useful for this purpose.Needless to say, your various comments contradict each other and provide a clear example of irrational behaviour, coupled with delusional beliefs of the self righteous. You are making the gravest of logical errors insofar as you appear to invest your self esteem in the mysticism of those preachers of 'free market' indoctrination! A true Zero of free market consequences but a desire to help the starving with your personal contribution to the well being of strangers! And while enjoy the never ending fairy tales of those heroes of the Zero, you know the history of the rise and rise of 'talented' business leaders, you know the illusions created, the myths perpetuated serve a purpose of assisting in the creation of guilty victims.......Of course Bill Gate just like you started out with nothing, Alan Sugsr and Branson were Banardos kids selling toffee apple down the local market, and Dick Whittington set out to find his fortune..... BUT we know reality and reality is either we inhabit a CAPITALIST society, which a-priori requires capital - that meaning a business requires the investment of capital in order to be created OR we do not live in such a society, in which case I am sure it might be possible to arrive at being a hero from a zero - but I doubt it very much - unless some less than honest behaviour or even magic trick are employed. In which case you must be a mystic of materialism!Either way we seek truth and we are left wanting......Lets try real capitalism and just see how many of you fakers, deceivers and evaders would survive!But you know the answer already!Under capitalism man exploits man; under socialism the reverse is true. Sun 01 Aug 2010 18:18:40 GMT+1 U14566093 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=92#comment930 916. At 6:42pm on 01 Aug 2010, John_Bull wrote: 906. At 6:09pm on 01 Aug 2010, The Piper at the Gates of Dawn wrote:Do you read English?, your bable has nothing to do with the question====================================================================Oh dear, Piper I thought that you might have learned from yesterday, or was that biederbeck?When seeking to 'put down’ a fellow contributor, it really doesn't help if the operative word in that ‘put down’ is spelt incorrectlyYou tend to look ridiculous.######################### The only thing that looks ridiculous.on here is you.If you have an agument or valid point of view then present it.I take it that you do not know the language Sun 01 Aug 2010 18:17:49 GMT+1 Matt http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=92#comment929 905. At 6:06pm on 01 Aug 2010, MellorSJ wrote:Matt provokes amusement____________________________All that the poster was doing was attempting to set a less than subtle trap.You are a trumpeter of a coalition government whose policies so far have done little to address symptoms and have instead operated in a similar way to a tabloid newspaper using sensationalism and falsehoods to convince the plebs to accept measures which will not fix problems and in fact will compound them. You could start to explain what these measures will do to address the lack of jobs? Sun 01 Aug 2010 18:17:35 GMT+1 donnylad http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=91#comment928 @ 18. At 07:16am on 30 Jul 2010, The Muse wrote:Here we go again.When is the talk going to stop and the action going to begin?When are the 'desparately seeking work' grown-ups going to be asked what it is we need to get ourselves back into work. I know what I need to get the edge on the youngsters at job interviews, but until I get a job and save up the money for the qualification I'm thwarted. If the government can fund a student for 3 years at University to end up with a 'non-job' qualification, they can help towards funding for 'proper training' for those wanting it to get back into work. Instead of funding endless 'computer courses' that are pointless in many cases.When are the 'living from hand to mouth' grown-ups going to be asked how much we need to be able to live on.When are the unemployed people outside the '16 - 24' age bracket going to be noticed?When are those who are trying to get themselves off benefits going to be given the help they need to achieve this? instead of the ones who are happy to slob around all day being given more and more and more under the pretext of trying to change their mentality. Giving them less and less and less would soon see them changing their tune, especially if they saw that if they would do something to help themselves they would then get more support.If they want to get people back into work then they need to start listening to the people out of work and what it is we need to get us back on that ladder.Where, when there are threats of yet more job losses do they think all these jobs are coming from anyway?Heartily agree with you about the job situation. I am on the 16-24 age bracket and i cannot even find a saturday job to help me through univeristy. The worst bit for someone like me is employers ask for experience. How can i get experience when i can't get even a saturday job? It's only going to get worse when i finish my course i believe (pharmaceutical science) Sun 01 Aug 2010 18:16:14 GMT+1 D G Cullum http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=91#comment927 When I went on benefits after working in low paid jobs looking after people in their homes from 7 in the morning to 10 at night and at week ends and standing in for those carers who were burnt out after a 70 hour week week in week out I found that I had to live on £80 odd a fortnight this was about £5.40 PER DAY I did not smoke nor drink and had many days when I did not eat then I got diabetes from the stress, and I got a little extra but trying to get any more you had to have a degree in social services, yet top brass at the DHS got bonuses. But we were means tested all the time and we had information lost and so there was no money and you had to go and prove whom you were and then go to the DHS office to get money I once sat with a friend whom this had happened and we sat for hours because the staff they had were not trained but employed. Now I am sick and I have a pension I can eat a couple of times a day now. IDS should live on the DHS infact all this Tory party should do a couple of years on the DHS. They are fleecing the public and they have the cheek to do what they are doing I believe much of the laws in the DHS come from the workhouse laws. Sun 01 Aug 2010 18:14:53 GMT+1 U14572316 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=91#comment926 Can I please ask the followingJohn_BullMellorSJRupert SmythTo give it a restNo one is interested in your misinformation join the real world Sun 01 Aug 2010 18:14:12 GMT+1 The Ghosts of John Galt http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=91#comment925 815. At 1:24pm on 01 Aug 2010, MellorSJ:Yet again your comments betray your nature! A mystic babbler of the Doctrine of Sacrifice! If you will respond to my arguments, please have the good manner to understand the meaning of the language employed to convey the message! Do not assume your own definition of words is correct! A good dictionary may be useful for this purpose. Needless to say, your various comments contradict each other and provide a clear example of irrational behaviour, coupled with delusional beliefs of the self righteous. You are making the gravest of logical errors insofar as you appear to invest your self esteem in the mysticism of those preachers of 'free market' indoctrination! A true Zero of free market consequences but a desire to help the starving with your personal contribution to the well being of strangers! And while enjoy the never ending fairy tales of those heroes of the Zero, you know the history of the rise and rise of 'talented' business leaders, you know the illusions created, the myths perpetuated serve a purpose of assisting in the creation of guilty victims.......Of course Bill Gate just like you started out with nothing, Alan Sugsr and Branson were Banardos kids selling toffee apple down the local market, and Dick Whittington set out to find his fortune..... BUT we know reality and reality is either we inhabit a CAPITALIST society, which a-priori requires capital - that meaning a business requires the investment of capital in order to be created OR we do not live in such a society, in which case I am sure it might be possible to arrive at being a hero from a zero - but I doubt it very much - unless some less than honest behaviour or even magic trick are employed. In which case you must be a mystic of materialism!Either way we seek truth and we are left wanting......Lets try real capitalism and just see how many of you fakers, deceivers and evaders would survive! But you know the answer already! Sun 01 Aug 2010 18:11:59 GMT+1 Magi Tatcher http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=91#comment924 917. At 6:45pm on 01 Aug 2010, Matt wrote:903. At 6:04pm on 01 Aug 2010, Magi Tatcher wrote:Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.--------------------------Yeah and any fool can say nothing......what you have done is just defended governmental ineffective decisions. So tell me your ideas for job creation which will be required to get people off benefits....im sure you're not a fool.I'm more interested in your proposed alternatives to free market capitalism which I believe is the question I originally asked in response to your initial post.However, to answer your question, new jobs will be created as the UK economy expands. Granted, this may take some time and I personally don't believe it will make much difference to the benefits issue being discussed. Sun 01 Aug 2010 18:08:07 GMT+1 MargaretB http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=91#comment923 The following things need to be done to sort this problem out:1) Cap all out-of-work benefits to no more than 75% of what would be earned in a full-time job at the statutory minimum wage. This will ensure that nobody is better off on benefits than they would e in work2)Pay all enefits gross and tax them as income. This will ensure that workers and the unemployed are treated the same, and again make moving into a job easier3) Increase the statutory minimum wage to make jobs more attractive. Employers will save at the other end by not needing to pay so much tax to fund benefits. Employers who pay such poor wages that their staff are in receipt of in-work benefits should be named and shamed, and the directors subjected to a windfall tax4) Stop immigration at all levels of jobs, but especially at the bottom end. This is so that there are actually jobs for people to move into. Companies who persist in importing workers should be forced to cover all their costs, including health and housingPeople on benefits must understand that starting out is tough, and that your first job might be a bit grotty, but it is a start. And employers must start to take local people on and train/boss them into taking on the discipline of workingThis is a huge problem we need to solve, and we can't keep on pussyfooting about. Sun 01 Aug 2010 18:04:13 GMT+1 U14571380 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=91#comment922 · 916. At 6:42pm on 01 Aug 2010, John_Bull wrote: 906. At 6:09pm on 01 Aug 2010, The Piper at the Gates of Dawn wrote:Do you read English?, your bable has nothing to do with the question====================================================================Oh dear, Piper I thought that you might have learned from yesterday, or was that biederbeck?When seeking to 'put down’ a fellow contributor, it really doesn't help if the operative word in that ‘put down’ is spelt incorrectlyYou tend to look ridiculous.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I think you will find it refers to an obscure language I think, muck like the rubbish you talk,I thought everyone knew that Sun 01 Aug 2010 18:03:54 GMT+1 U14566932 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=91#comment921 · 916. At 6:42pm on 01 Aug 2010, John_Bull wrote: 906. At 6:09pm on 01 Aug 2010, The Piper at the Gates of Dawn wrote:Do you read English?, your bable has nothing to do with the question====================================================================Oh dear, Piper I thought that you might have learned from yesterday, or was that biederbeck?When seeking to 'put down’ a fellow contributor, it really doesn't help if the operative word in that ‘put down’ is spelt incorrectlyYou tend to look ridiculous.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose in your ignorance you are referring to “bable”.I suggest you look it up Sun 01 Aug 2010 18:00:11 GMT+1 U14566093 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=91#comment920 This post has been Removed Sun 01 Aug 2010 17:56:55 GMT+1 Three Million Posse On Employed In A Dub http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=91#comment919 Working Kind (Chokin´ Kind)* Then I will say to him "I've got to work all day""Oh yeah, and you cant give me a raise of pay"Then he would say to me, "You don't seem to be the working kind"Then he'd look all about for some work for meThen I get tired, then I get weakyet I can't stop yet I can't stop, I got to work it offBelieve me people, I'm not the working kindYet my boss all he does is watch me through a glassI'm not the working kind not at all(*)= John Holt Sun 01 Aug 2010 17:55:15 GMT+1 Doozie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=90#comment918 IF LET TO THEIR OWN DEVICES (FREE REIGN ;(MARKET) .THE HUMAN BEAST WILL GO TO EXTREMES OF:GREED,ARRONGANCE AND INHUMANATY TO WEAKER SOCIETY MEMBERS;FINE IF WANT CRIME,WARS,RIOTS AND SELF-DESTRUCTION.IF NOT ; THE HUMAN BEAST AS TO TAMED AND WORK TO THE WHOLE SOCIETY BENEFIT;AT PRESENT WITH EXTREMES OF WEALTH AND POVERTY THE HUMAN BEAST IS IN DANGERWITH WORLD WAR 3 ON THE HORIZON THERE WILL BE NO FUTURE FOR NO ONE. Sun 01 Aug 2010 17:52:27 GMT+1 John_Bull http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=90#comment917 908. At 6:21pm on 01 Aug 2010, Biederbeck wrote:· 900. At 5:52pm on 01 Aug 2010, John_Bull wrote: 891. At 5:30pm on 01 Aug 2010, The Piper at the Gates of Dawn wrote:In my haste to rebuke the less intelligent of our fellow posters, I did not look, read and understand=================================================================This boast seems to be based on a very questionable premise!################################## Fact I would say====================================================================Well you say that wouldn't you?In your world, all those that agree with you are clever, and all those that don't must be stupid. That is why your posts are just silly rhetorical rants Sun 01 Aug 2010 17:49:13 GMT+1 Matt http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=90#comment916 903. At 6:04pm on 01 Aug 2010, Magi Tatcher wrote:Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.--------------------------Yeah and any fool can say nothing......what you have done is just defended governmental ineffective decisions. So tell me your ideas for job creation which will be required to get people off benefits....im sure you're not a fool. Sun 01 Aug 2010 17:45:14 GMT+1 John_Bull http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=90#comment915 906. At 6:09pm on 01 Aug 2010, The Piper at the Gates of Dawn wrote:Do you read English?, your bable has nothing to do with the question====================================================================Oh dear, Piper I thought that you might have learned from yesterday, or was that biederbeck?When seeking to 'put down’ a fellow contributor, it really doesn't help if the operative word in that ‘put down’ is spelt incorrectlyYou tend to look ridiculous. Sun 01 Aug 2010 17:42:30 GMT+1 Magi Tatcher http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=90#comment914 912. At 6:25pm on 01 Aug 2010, paul wrote:Dear oh Dear, George Orwell would think time had stood still if he were around to see this, some of you lot won't be content until we have"Arrived" At Wigan Pier. We of the sinking middle class may sink without further struggles into the working classes where we belong, and probably when we get there it will not be so dreadful as we feared, for, after all, we have nothing to lose but our aitches. Sun 01 Aug 2010 17:41:12 GMT+1 MellorSJ http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=90#comment913 Piper (etc) writes in post #906: "Do you read English?, your bable has nothing to do with the question"Priceless! Sun 01 Aug 2010 17:31:50 GMT+1 wvpTV http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=90#comment912 How can the government move people into work?1. Fix the 30% of children leaving school unable to read properly2. Foster inspiring schools and teaching3. Cut over population, stop immigration and EU workers that are not sponsored4. Pay a living minimum wage (£14,400) £7.40 per hour5. Stop over developing town centres (leads to congestion and poor economics)6. Revitalise rural and small town economies, ban second homes, allow fox hunting, tax airline fuel (makes people holiday at home).7. Ban excessive salaries and pensions (top pay is PM)8. Enforce equal percentage of salary bonus payouts to all staff not just the greedy few at the top. Sun 01 Aug 2010 17:31:24 GMT+1 paul http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=90#comment911 Dear oh Dear, George Orwell would think time had stood still if he were around to see this, some of you lot won't be content until we have "Arrived" At Wigan Pier. Sun 01 Aug 2010 17:25:32 GMT+1 U14566932 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=90#comment910 · 898. At 5:49pm on 01 Aug 2010, MellorSJ wrote: False witness writes, in response to John Bull: "If you have the figures, why not share them? ##################### You do it, find a few "FACTS" for a change"Research indicates that as taxes go up towards a maximum of 100%, people do more of the activity that leads to the tax. That is, when income taxes, for example, rise, people work harder and harder until they reach the maximum rate. And then they just go on working.I have the facts that support this assertion, but you can find these "FACTS" for yourself. (And I thought this type of 'reasoning' was reserved for the creationists...!)############################# Obviously judging from you past posts and this one the fact are of no consequence to you. Why let the facts get in the way of your questionable belief Sun 01 Aug 2010 17:24:34 GMT+1 benevolentbroadmind http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/07/will_reform_move_people_from_w.html?page=90#comment909 It is my firm belief that the system is geared up to earm as much money as possible to the previleged. I know belive they need more so they are trying to get more people to work so they could benefit more. There are many undeserving of the benefit. There are also many forgulent ones as well. Yet there are thouse that deserves that they can not get it because of the complexity and lack of proof or document. As usually honest suffers. Whatever happens the system should carry on untill a better one gradually replaces itor jobs created with enough incentive to get them off the benefit to working life. Oterwise so many will suffer if past 50 years experience that any goverment project implementation CAN NOR run smoothly. Sun 01 Aug 2010 17:23:49 GMT+1