Comments for http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html en-gb 30 Sat 12 Jul 2014 04:33:50 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html _marko http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=99#comment1653 To panchopablo #1623You couldn't actually express this in general terms. Please reflect on why you are unable to do this.So the general conditions are:Victimvictim of war, terrorism and propagandaOpressorContinue war, continue terrorism they have lost, send guns and rockets and not books/food medical supplies, steal land, demolish homes.So the lines seem a bit blurred, almost interchangeable.To people talking of a "wall-of-hate", Israel "bashing" on a thread about Israel:1) How do you distinguish between "legitimate criticism" and Israel "bashing" in this thread?2) If Israel is not accountable to the UN and International law, what standard do you use to judge Israel's actions, when making the disitnction?3) If there is no standard, what is the basis of the accusation of "bashing"?4) If the problem is focus on Israel, why is this an issue if it also gives more opportunity to clarify and articulate the pro-Israeli case?I don't see a problem with threads focussed on the Middle East. They should get clearer over time, as the propaganda and rhetoric become less effective. Thu 24 Jun 2010 10:50:49 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=99#comment1652 1637. At 05:23am on 24 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"And stopping paper and cotton from going into Gaza isn't going to stop Hamas from using the paper and cotton that's already in Gaza to make nitrocellulose. So the ban on paper and cotton seems absolutely pointless to me."If they are, with no new supplies they will run out and that solves the rocket problem to some extent. The expedient and most benign way of doing it. Rocket fuel from nitrocellulose has about the same volume as the raw cellolose, the rocket motor part appears to be 3 inches in diameter and about 3 feet long. This would require about half a ream of paper (500 sheets). As for cotton bead sheets, about the weight of 500 sheets of paper, that would be a lot of bed sheets."--------------------------------------But Hamas are not currently using nitrocellulose. They are using fertiliser-based explosives smuggled in through tunnels. So the more pressing problem should be to stop the explosives that they are currently using, rather than a potential explosive which they could use in the future. Until Hamas start using paper or cotton to make explosives from, the ban is pointless, and they won't start using paper and cotton whilst there is still a decent supply of the stuff that they are currently using.So the ban on paper and cotton is without purpose, in my view. Thu 24 Jun 2010 10:47:24 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=99#comment1651 1649. At 07:57am on 24 Jun 2010, alex wrote:"Yes. It would be unwise to let such things through anyway. They can bring anything they want through Egypt -- but Egypt doesn't let them. Do you know why you're not bashing Egypt, at least by yourself?"----------------------------------------I regularly bash Egypt. Why do you not notice this? Egypt is the second largest recipient of US aid, after Israel, and does what it's paymaster wants. Thu 24 Jun 2010 10:35:47 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=99#comment1650 This post has been Removed Thu 24 Jun 2010 09:26:38 GMT+1 skamble http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=99#comment1649 I am addressing this to people who really want to understand what is happening in the Middle East, and there are some such in this Have Your Say.The war of summer 2006 in Lebanon started not because of two Israeli border guards captured by Hezbollah. It started because Hezbollah began to fire on Israeli civilians living close to the border. The border between Israel and Lebanon is in a hilly area with towns on both sides clearly visible from across the border, and not too far away.A border like this can only be peaceful, otherwise life for civilians becomes impossible. Shooting heavy machine guns and RPGs at Israeli towns was the real trigger for the war. Right now, Hezbollah has enough rockets to launch a large scale attack on Israeli cities. If this happens, Israel will have to act to protect its citizens, and then Hezbollah will again pretend to be the innocents attacked by Zionists for no reason, as they always do. Thu 24 Jun 2010 07:29:04 GMT+1 alex http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=99#comment1648 1630. At 02:05am on 24 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:"So there are no books or cotton clothes in Gaza now, from which nitrocellulose could be made? That's why Israel wants to stop any books or cotton getting into Gaza? Do you really believe this stuff?"Yes. It would be unwise to let such things through anyway. They can bring anything they want through Egypt -- but Egypt doesn't let them. Do you know why you're not bashing Egypt, at least by yourself?Books -- I'd definitely ban some books, not just because of paper, but because of the extent of violence and racism containing in them. Thu 24 Jun 2010 06:57:56 GMT+1 alex http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=99#comment1647 Jeff Phua wrote:"When has Israel ever seek the cooperation of the Palestinians?"Always does."We killed 1000+ of your civilians."800+ terrorists and 200+ civilians. Please stop using a terrorist group Hamas's numbers, they are so obviously bogus."We used white phosphor."On terrorists. Please stop cutting the information from the context."We even bombed the UN building."When they were attacked from that building (obviously by Hamas)."Now can you cooperate by moving out of your land so that we can have it all to ourselves'?????"Why did they move out from Gaza then? Thu 24 Jun 2010 06:46:52 GMT+1 alex http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=99#comment1646 Jeff Phua wrote:""I think Peter blames the Government of Israel, not Jews. Big difference again"It's not clear whom he blames for "hard line Jews" not wanting something related to "non hard line Jews". No reference to the origin of this stuff, so I don't have any clue.""No reports of any contraband found in the freedom convoy that they killed 9 people to stop."I think what Peter meant was that Israeli claims that there were contraband was false."Then why did he write "no reports". Tf to believe you, Israeli "reported" contraband found, while he wrote "no reports". Thus he meant real deadly contraband (explosives, Qassams, parts). So I've responded -- Israeli soldiers had to perform the check nonetheless, but were heavily beaten by "the protesters", captured, and then fortunately freed. 9 killed because "the protesters" wouldn't free the soldiers otherwise and would bring them to Hamas to be tortured and murdered. Thu 24 Jun 2010 06:39:23 GMT+1 alex http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=99#comment1645 1513. At 09:35am on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:"But that's not true. Arafat recognised Israel's right to exist, as this excerpt from a letter from Arafat to Yitzhak Rabin clearly demonstrates:"Not really. He did write that letter, he did write these words in English, however he still kept calling for destruction of Israel in Arabic. His official words of recognition remained no more than words. There were continuing suicide attacks by his people Israel. Only Abbas shown some arguably real steps towards peace. Thu 24 Jun 2010 06:26:30 GMT+1 Jeff Phua http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=99#comment1644 1640. At 06:20am on 24 Jun 2010, skamble wrote:"Jeff Phua" wrote:" I remember the Lebanese war was fought in the mist of an election. To take the lives of 1000+ because of an election is just not right."The second Lebanese war started when Hezbollah fighters set up an ambush for Israeli border patrol. To lure the Israelis, Hezbollah fired RPG rockets into the houses of Israeli civilians close to the border on the Israeli side. Then, when the border patrol rushed to the scene, they attacked it with antitank weapons, took prisoners, and the fighting began.To say that Israel started the war because of elections is a deliberate lie and unfortunately this Have Your Say is full of posts which are not arguments in the way honest people understand the word, but rather non-stop lying.There are many participants in the Have Your Say whose user names suggest they belong to an ethnic group with which, to judge from their posts, they have nothing in common. There is a user called non-violence who calls for destruction of Israel, as if it was a non-violent objective.In short I find it distasteful to engage in any argument with people who do not respect the rules of honest arguing. Let this Have Your Say be an unbroken wall of hate messages against Israel. One cannot stop this flow anymore one can stop the hate messages on walls of other public places.-------------------------------------------------------------------And they used the capture of two Israeli soldiers to justify a war that killed 1000+ civilians.There is a more humane way to secure the release of the soldiers and it's called prisoner swap. Happens all the time. Thu 24 Jun 2010 06:01:45 GMT+1 Jeff Phua http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=99#comment1643 1606. At 10:02pm on 23 Jun 2010, you wrote:1601. At 9:32pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:1596. At 9:15pm on 23 Jun 2010, Jeff Phua wrote:1586. At 8:22pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:1511. At 09:21am on 23 Jun 2010, Jeff Phua wrote:[a lot if nonsense]Two wonderful plans to solve all the problems of the ME. Rather than congratulating yourself of your own brilliance, take your masterful strokes of genius to the UN, Hanas and Israel. I can hardly wait for the world shattering guffaws to start. 15 minutes of fame will be all yours to bask in.====================================================================Sorry, I don't normally reply to posts not relevent to the topic.But I'm doing it just once, just to let you know.What a copout dude. You have the gall to start the ball rolling and then tell me it is not relevant. Grow up.======================================================================I don't see a question anywhere. So, what do you want me to reply to?Or do you want me to make fun of you? Sorry, I'm too grown up for that.===================================================================Cariboo,I believe there are two question marks here. Of haven't you noticed? Thu 24 Jun 2010 05:53:50 GMT+1 Jeff Phua http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=99#comment1642 1625. At 00:43am on 24 Jun 2010, eyeopener wrote:Well I think this debate has got a little confused. The genius that is Jeff Phua is arguing with the self proclaimed yardstick of free will Dave G as to the logistical difficulties of banning air!! Jeff - Dave G shares your views and was being sarcastic when he suggested that air be banned. Admittedly it wasn't a great bit of sarcasm but I'm disappointed you didn"t pick up on it. I guess it shows you probably don't often understand context. I'm wondering, shouldn't there be an L at the end of your surname?So, until the next time israel does something good, bad or indifferent and the bbc feels the need to open another HYS forum on essentially the same topic, I'll sign of. Maybe i'll read the HYS on the real ethnic cleansing going on in krzyjkstan, or the Turkish oppression of the kurds, or the Iranian govt closing down free institutions, or the killing of thousands of civilians in afghanistan, iraq and pakistan, or human rights atrocities and truly racist and apartheid policies in a multitude of Islamic countries. only problem is I'm having difficulty finding the HYS pages on these relevant and timely issues..... funny that, BBC.---------------------------------------------------------------------I knew it was sarcasm. I was being sarcastic myself. If you didn't pick that up, it's okay. Thu 24 Jun 2010 05:50:43 GMT+1 Jeff Phua http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=99#comment1641 This post has been Removed Thu 24 Jun 2010 05:45:23 GMT+1 lordBanners http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=99#comment1640 This post has been Removed Thu 24 Jun 2010 05:27:01 GMT+1 skamble http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=99#comment1639 "Jeff Phua" wrote:" I remember the Lebanese war was fought in the mist of an election. To take the lives of 1000+ because of an election is just not right."The second Lebanese war started when Hezbollah fighters set up an ambush for Israeli border patrol. To lure the Israelis, Hezbollah fired RPG rockets into the houses of Israeli civilians close to the border on the Israeli side. Then, when the border patrol rushed to the scene, they attacked it with antitank weapons, took prisoners, and the fighting began.To say that Israel started the war because of elections is a deliberate lie and unfortunately this Have Your Say is full of posts which are not arguments in the way honest people understand the word, but rather non-stop lying.There are many participants in the Have Your Say whose user names suggest they belong to an ethnic group with which, to judge from their posts, they have nothing in common. There is a user called non-violence who calls for destruction of Israel, as if it was a non-violent objective.In short I find it distasteful to engage in any argument with people who do not respect the rules of honest arguing. Let this Have Your Say be an unbroken wall of hate messages against Israel. One cannot stop this flow anymore one can stop the hate messages on walls of other public places. Thu 24 Jun 2010 05:20:58 GMT+1 Nizam Yagoub http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=99#comment1638 This post has been Removed Thu 24 Jun 2010 04:39:08 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=98#comment1637 1635. At 02:58am on 24 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:Oh, and your point about "put yourself in the line of fire" - ever hear of the IRA?Yes and guess where I was at that time. A serving member of the British Army. My home was just outside of Gilford, remember the pub that got bombed. Fortunately for me my job in REME did not require me to go to Northern Ireland but the lads from the regiment I was attached to did. I got the tale first hand. Thu 24 Jun 2010 04:30:26 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=98#comment1636 1634. At 02:55am on 24 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1633. At 02:41am on 24 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"So there are no books or cotton clothes in Gaza now, from which nitrocellulose could be made? That's why Israel wants to stop any books or cotton getting into Gaza? Do you really believe this stuff?Are you asking questions or making statements."Do you really believe this stuff?"What stuff, that nitrocellulose can be made from paper and cotton, yes it has been done for years.--------------------------------------But not by Hamas, as far as I know.So they could be.And stopping paper and cotton from going into Gaza isn't going to stop Hamas from using the paper and cotton that's already in Gaza to make nitrocellulose. So the ban on paper and cotton seems absolutely pointless to me.If they are, with no new supplies they will run out and that solves the rocket problem to some extent. The expedient and most benign way of doing it. Rocket fuel from nitrocellulose has about the same volume as the raw cellolose, the rocket motor part appears to be 3 inches in diameter and about 3 feet long. This would require about half a ream of paper (500 sheets). As for cotton bead sheets, about the weight of 500 sheets of paper, that would be a lot of bed sheets. Thu 24 Jun 2010 04:23:50 GMT+1 Nizam Yagoub http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=98#comment1635 Chris WSrote:You are right, but it is not only the children of Israel but the Arab world. You see, Golda Meir said to Anwar Sadat during peace talks "We can forgive you for killing our sons. But we will never forgive you for making us kill yours"This is very touching peace of rubbish; coming from the people known as children murders in our area, who have no qualm in bombiong a whole building full of residents to flush out terrorists. This is not done in any civlized country; the UK never bombed Catholic Irish residntial areas to flush out the IRA terrorsts or teh Sapnich with ETA and claim terrorists are using civilians as shield.Soeme how; the Israelis alway manage to come out of the gutter smelling of roses Thu 24 Jun 2010 03:46:16 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=98#comment1634 Oh, and your point about "put yourself in the line of fire" - ever hear of the IRA? Thu 24 Jun 2010 01:58:09 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=98#comment1633 1633. At 02:41am on 24 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"So there are no books or cotton clothes in Gaza now, from which nitrocellulose could be made? That's why Israel wants to stop any books or cotton getting into Gaza? Do you really believe this stuff?Are you asking questions or making statements."Do you really believe this stuff?"What stuff, that nitrocellulose can be made from paper and cotton, yes it has been done for years.--------------------------------------But not by Hamas, as far as I know.And stopping paper and cotton from going into Gaza isn't going to stop Hamas from using the paper and cotton that's already in Gaza to make nitrocellulose. So the ban on paper and cotton seems absolutely pointless to me. Thu 24 Jun 2010 01:55:57 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=98#comment1632 1630. At 02:05am on 24 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1629. At 01:17am on 24 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"Well of course if you had read and comprehended and done a bit more research it would become evident that a very pure form of cellulose is needed. Paper made from wood is quit a pure form of cellulose because the lignum (Latin for tree) that binds the cellulose has been removed. The lignum is the glue like substance that holds the cellulose together.Verification of lignum so you cannot argue the fact.http://everything2.com/title/LigninThe “the old lady has a chrysanthemum” are not a suitable source as are most sources of cellulose. With a lot of purification chrysanthemum would be viable but not at all practical.“Is Israel going to defoliate the Gaza strip in it's entirety, to deny the people the chance of extracting the cellulose from the plants?”Is that a statement or a question you would like to retract having had your knowledge of nitrocellulose enhanced or are you just being flippant (again)."-------------------------------------------So there are no books or cotton clothes in Gaza now, from which nitrocellulose could be made? That's why Israel wants to stop any books or cotton getting into Gaza? Do you really believe this stuff?Are you asking questions or making statements."Do you really believe this stuff?"What stuff, that nitrocellulose can be made from paper and cotton, yes it has been done for years.I also think that expediency is a good idea. Many common and apparently innocuous things can be weaponized and when you have an antagonist that is willing and capable to do just that, it is expedient to try and prevent the common goods being weaponized. If you want to argue the merits then at least put yourself in the line of fire for a long time before doing so. Then you would have the right to say something and I would be very inclined to pay serious attention to what you say. Thu 24 Jun 2010 01:41:10 GMT+1 U14530116 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=98#comment1631 This post has been Removed Thu 24 Jun 2010 01:10:39 GMT+1 U14530116 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=98#comment1630 This post has been Removed Thu 24 Jun 2010 01:09:46 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=98#comment1629 1629. At 01:17am on 24 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"Well of course if you had read and comprehended and done a bit more research it would become evident that a very pure form of cellulose is needed. Paper made from wood is quit a pure form of cellulose because the lignum (Latin for tree) that binds the cellulose has been removed. The lignum is the glue like substance that holds the cellulose together.Verification of lignum so you cannot argue the fact.http://everything2.com/title/LigninThe “the old lady has a chrysanthemum” are not a suitable source as are most sources of cellulose. With a lot of purification chrysanthemum would be viable but not at all practical.“Is Israel going to defoliate the Gaza strip in it's entirety, to deny the people the chance of extracting the cellulose from the plants?”Is that a statement or a question you would like to retract having had your knowledge of nitrocellulose enhanced or are you just being flippant (again)."-------------------------------------------So there are no books or cotton clothes in Gaza now, from which nitrocellulose could be made? That's why Israel wants to stop any books or cotton getting into Gaza? Do you really believe this stuff? Thu 24 Jun 2010 01:05:38 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=98#comment1628 1622. At 00:07am on 24 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1619. At 11:31pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrocellulose"--------------------------------------And that's your rationalisation for not allowing paper and cotton into Gaza?A third of all plant matter on the planet is cellulose. Are Israeli helicopter gunships going to destroy a house in Gaza because the old lady has a chrysanthemum in her window-box, on the grounds that she may be using the cellulose in the plant to make weapons? Is Israel going to defoliate the Gaza strip in it's entirety, to deny the people the chance of extracting the cellulose from the plants?Your argument just gets more bizarre by the minute.Bizarre is a way to describe your ignorance on so many things. I do not just make this stuff up. I wanted to know why stuff was on the banned list. Some I knew and other I found out about. Rather than going off as a verbal machine gun you could do the same. I research something because I want to know you seem to skim research looking for ammunition. Your feet will heal up eventually. Well of course if you had read and comprehended and done a bit more research it would become evident that a very pure form of cellulose is needed. Paper made from wood is quit a pure form of cellulose because the lignum (Latin for tree) that binds the cellulose has been removed. The lignum is the glue like substance that holds the cellulose together.Verification of lignum so you cannot argue the fact.http://everything2.com/title/LigninThe “the old lady has a chrysanthemum” are not a suitable source as are most sources of cellulose. With a lot of purification chrysanthemum would be viable but not at all practical.“Is Israel going to defoliate the Gaza strip in it's entirety, to deny the people the chance of extracting the cellulose from the plants?”Is that a statement or a question you would like to retract having had your knowledge of nitrocellulose enhanced or are you just being flippant (again). Thu 24 Jun 2010 00:17:41 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=98#comment1627 1627. At 00:57am on 24 Jun 2010, herecomesthemirrorman wrote:"That might have something to do with a little something called the second intifada. After Arafat walked out on negotiations without even a counterproposal, Palestinian violence and suicide bombings increased dramatically. Virtually everybody that played some sort of role in the Camp David-Taba peace talks (not just Clinton and the Israelis, but some of Arafat's closest advisors) placed the blame on Yasser Arafat and his decision to turn down Ehud Barak's offer and subsequent order to prepare for renewed terrorism. The accusation last week that Netanyahu said one thing in English and another in Hebrew and that the Israeli government lies - neither could ever be a patch on Arafat - Arafat was a duplicitous sort who constantly said one thing in English to the Western media and something completely different to the Arabic media, and that was why previous US administrations insisted that he repeat in Arabic what he was saying in English when he was condemning terrorist attacks and calling for an end to violence.Arafat was never one to adhere to agreements or take peace talks seriously. Much of his life revolved around terrorist activity. To seriously commit to peace would have meant the end of him."-----------------------------------------But the fact remains that the PLO, which was once regarded in the same light as Hamas now is in Israel and elsewhere - i.e. a terrorist group which wants to destroy Israel and is therefore not capable of negotiating - is now called Fatah and is not classed as a terrorist group by anyone, including the Israelis.So attitudes of Palestinian political groups are not as set in stone as some people try to make everyone believe that they are. Thu 24 Jun 2010 00:17:37 GMT+1 herecomesthemirrorman http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=98#comment1626 1570. At 6:36pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1568. At 6:19pm on 23 Jun 2010, Stella di Davide wrote:"Those are labels given by others. I am neither an oppressor nor a victim.The vilification of the Jews, Israelis or Zionists (choose which ever term you prefer)is not about the alleged oppression of the Palestinians.By those standards every nation would be considered an oppressive nation.Israel has no option and every right to defend itself. Perhaps it's the idea of Jews with guns that doesn't sit well, even with some Jews. Face facts. Israel is at war with Hamas. A war Hamas declared. To defend themselves the Israelis need to take up arms.Ask Israelis and their government 'would you be happy to live side by side with a peaceful Palestinian nation?'Every single Israeli I know, even those who are considered right wing, will reply YES!Then ask the same of Hamas."---------------------------------------------But I recall the same "they are terrorists who will never change" nonsense being said about Arafat's PLO.Yet Arafat explicitly accepted Israel's right to exist and vowed to seek agreement through peaceful means. What happened to him? Israel besieged him in a bunker in Ramallah, rather than doing a peace deal with him.-------------------That might have something to do with a little something called the second intifada. After Arafat walked out on negotiations without even a counterproposal, Palestinian violence and suicide bombings increased dramatically. Virtually everybody that played some sort of role in the Camp David-Taba peace talks (not just Clinton and the Israelis, but some of Arafat's closest advisors) placed the blame on Yasser Arafat and his decision to turn down Ehud Barak's offer and subsequent order to prepare for renewed terrorism. The accusation last week that Netanyahu said one thing in English and another in Hebrew and that the Israeli government lies - neither could ever be a patch on Arafat - Arafat was a duplicitous sort who constantly said one thing in English to the Western media and something completely different to the Arabic media, and that was why previous US administrations insisted that he repeat in Arabic what he was saying in English when he was condemning terrorist attacks and calling for an end to violence. Arafat was never one to adhere to agreements or take peace talks seriously. Much of his life revolved around terrorist activity. To seriously commit to peace would have meant the end of him. Wed 23 Jun 2010 23:57:31 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=98#comment1625 1620. At 11:41pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1617. At 11:16pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"You've asked every Brit in the world if they believe in free will?"-------------------------I'm a Brit.I don't believe in free will.Therefore, whilst some unspecified proportion of Brits may believe in free will, Brits as a whole do not believe in free will.“I'm a Brit.” Its like Canadians feel about American beer, we feel your pain.“I don't believe in free will.” Just wondering, are you on this blog by choice or are you being forced to be here. If you are here by choice then you are exercising the freedom of will that you do not believe in.“Brits as a whole do not believe in free will.”Prove it. Have you asked every Brit in the world if they believe in free will? Yes or no.All I am doing to you is what you did to someone else. If you will not give a start answer then you are holding other to a standard that you will not keep. In short your expectations of others is higher than your standards. Either improve your own standards or relax the standards you expect from others otherwise you are a hypocrite. Wed 23 Jun 2010 23:49:47 GMT+1 eyeopener http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=98#comment1624 Well I think this debate has got a little confused. The genius that is Jeff Phua is arguing with the self proclaimed yardstick of free will Dave G as to the logistical difficulties of banning air!! Jeff - Dave G shares your views and was being sarcastic when he suggested that air be banned. Admittedly it wasn't a great bit of sarcasm but I'm disappointed you didn"t pick up on it. I guess it shows you probably don't often understand context. I'm wondering, shouldn't there be an L at the end of your surname?So, until the next time israel does something good, bad or indifferent and the bbc feels the need to open another HYS forum on essentially the same topic, I'll sign of. Maybe i'll read the HYS on the real ethnic cleansing going on in krzyjkstan, or the Turkish oppression of the kurds, or the Iranian govt closing down free institutions, or the killing of thousands of civilians in afghanistan, iraq and pakistan, or human rights atrocities and truly racist and apartheid policies in a multitude of Islamic countries. only problem is I'm having difficulty finding the HYS pages on these relevant and timely issues..... funny that, BBC. Wed 23 Jun 2010 23:43:48 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=98#comment1623 "1621. At 11:59pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:1614. At 11:00pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1597. At 9:16pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"Tea and coffee both contain tanic acid that when mixed with 2 other chemicals make an explosive that is set off by adding water."-------------------------------------Tea does not contain tannic acid. It contains tannin. Tannic acid is a specific commercial form of tannin, but the form of tannin in tea is different to that in tannic acid. I believe the same is true of coffee, in that it contains tannin, but not tannic acid.You are technically correct but converting tannin to tannic acid is something that is done in many kitchens on a daily basis. And after the conversion we still call it tea or coffee."---------------------------------------------They are wrong. Tea does not contain tannic acid, either when dry, or when wet. Tannic acid and tannin are different substances. The formula for tannic acid is C4 H10 O9. The formula for tea tannins is C20 H20 O9. The confusion is explained below. "While 'tannic acid' is a specific type of 'tannin' (plant polyphenol), the two terms are sometimes (incorrectly) used interchangeably. The long standing misuse of the terms, and its inclusion in scholarly articles have compounded the confusion. This is particularly widespread in relation to green tea and black tea. Although tea contains various types of polyphenols, "contrary to widespread belief, tea does not contain tannic acid."Source (with a link (Reference 1) to a PDF of a scientific paper, which in turn references two more supporting papers for the assertion that tea does not contain tannic acid) http://www.answers.com/topic/tannic-acid Wed 23 Jun 2010 23:28:57 GMT+1 panchopablo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=98#comment1622 1610. At 10:16pm on 23 Jun 2010, _marko wrote:To panchopablo #1603RE: oppressor or victim?Please let us know the general conditions that enable people to distinguish between these two labels.We can then compare various groups to see which category they fit into.(presumably it's the same as defence and attack, they're indistinguisable when it come to 60 years of Middle East conflict)" Israel:Victims of Arab wars,Arab terrorism and Arab propaganda.Palestinians:Opressed by there Arabs bothers to continue the wars they have lost,continue the terrorism they have lost and last and not least opressed by there leaders and the Arab brothers to suffer in Gaza to make the bleeding heart liberals in the Western world believe that Israel is some overlord that brutally oppresses the Gazans when in fact it is the Arabs who send guns and rockets to Gaza not books,food or medical supplies.Why exactly are Europeans breaking blockades to bring aid to Gaza when the have oil rich "Brothers" on the penisula?.Yes Israel fires the missiles that hits civilians but it is the Arabs that create the condition for it to happen.Israel is no perfect state,far from it,it is stealing land and demolishing homes and that dosent help there self defense excuse.Sadly though,the "Palestinians" where created for one purpose and one purpose only..............to fight the Arab wars. Wed 23 Jun 2010 23:25:54 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=98#comment1621 1619. At 11:31pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrocellulose"--------------------------------------And that's your rationalisation for not allowing paper and cotton into Gaza?A third of all plant matter on the planet is cellulose. Are Israeli helicopter gunships going to destroy a house in Gaza because the old lady has a chrysanthemum in her window-box, on the grounds that she may be using the cellulose in the plant to make weapons? Is Israel going to defoliate the Gaza strip in it's entirety, to deny the people the chance of extracting the cellulose from the plants?Your argument just gets more bizarre by the minute. Wed 23 Jun 2010 23:07:40 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=97#comment1620 1614. At 11:00pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1597. At 9:16pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"Tea and coffee both contain tanic acid that when mixed with 2 other chemicals make an explosive that is set off by adding water."-------------------------------------Tea does not contain tannic acid. It contains tannin. Tannic acid is a specific commercial form of tannin, but the form of tannin in tea is different to that in tannic acid. I believe the same is true of coffee, in that it contains tannin, but not tannic acid.You are technically correct but converting tannin to tannic acid is something that is done in many kitchens on a daily basis. And after the conversion we still call it tea or coffee.http://www.answers.com/topic/tanninThe section for the Columbia Encyclopedia:Here is the relevant part."Tannin is also present in tea, coffee, and walnuts. A solution of tannic acid is obtained from one of these natural sources by extraction with hot water"I guess walnuts are on the banned list as well. No banana, may be a half one. Wed 23 Jun 2010 22:59:50 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=97#comment1619 1617. At 11:16pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"You've asked every Brit in the world if they believe in free will?"-------------------------I'm a Brit.I don't believe in free will.Therefore, whilst some unspecified proportion of Brits may believe in free will, Brits as a whole do not believe in free will.Is this too difficult for you?But enough of your sidetracking. Wed 23 Jun 2010 22:41:52 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=97#comment1618 1612. At 10:26pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1605. At 10:02pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"1599. At 9:30pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:"Water is needed to create components for some weapons, so I assume you would support Israel banning water, or any other liquid, for that matter. Maybe they could ban air as well, on the grounds that is required for explosions."Oh how ignorant you are, obviously you do not have an inquiring mind, or maybe just closed minded.If one item for making an explosive is unobtainable then the explosive cannot be made even when all other items are readily available. Simple logic."-----------------------------------Simple logic which you apply selectively. You stop metals for rockets being made, yet you still attempt to justify the banning of everyday items which could possibly (according to you) be made into rocket fuels. So, applying your logic, you should want water and air banned from Gaza as well, for the same reason.“everyday items which could possibly (according to you) be made into rocket fuels.” Read this and do not start belittling Wikipedia as a source, the same information is available all over the web, google for it, you might actually learn something, relevant. Those folks in the Gaza strip may do some stupid things but ignorant they are not.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrocellulose“ You stop metals for rockets being made”I did! Since when? How did I do that please enlighten me. Of course I did not, did I? This must be some kind of porky you have made up because you are twisting in the wind with ineffectual argument.And scrap metal is on the banned list, just in case you did not know. Wed 23 Jun 2010 22:31:45 GMT+1 blankall http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=97#comment1617 Jeff Phua wrote:1581. At 7:43pm on 23 Jun 2010, blankall wrote:Nikos wrote:When Arafat was in power Israel claimed that he was the reason that there was no progress in the peace talk and demanded election to be held. After Arafat's demise the elections took place and Hamas was elected to power. Now Israel is simply punishing Palestinians for voting Hamas. It seems that democracy is acceptable only when it get the results the strong want (and that goes for any other regime also). Well that is the legacy England, France and later US give to middle east._______________________________________________________________Having democracy does not mean you are free from the consequences of your decisions. The fact the people of Gaza voted for Hamas makes them more liable for Hamas' actions, not less.When you vote in a government that vows to destroy your neighbour and then does everything in their power to do so, don't be surprised when your neighbour fights back.======================================================================In military terms and land mass, Israel is an elephant and Gaza is an ant.If your neighbor (the ant) says that he is going to destroy you (the elephant) because you have accidentally(note that I'm giving the elephant the benefit of the doubt) stomped on and destroyed his front porch, you can take the magnanimous stand and say that he is a retard because there is no way he can destroy you. He hasn't got the means or power no matter how hard he tries. And you walk away.Conversely, if you are vengeful and feels slighted by what he said, you can continue to destroy his home. Out of anger and desperation, because he has just lost a home, he (the ant) bites you (the elephant) at the back of you ear. You (the elephant), then complains to the Lion King.Who is right and who is wrong? But being big, I think you can afford to be a little magnanimous. Because words and bites can't break my bones, but the elephant's foot can do great damage to the ant.I wish people would stop using this as an excuse. It cannot hold water anymore.But then I hear people complaining that the land in which the ant builds its home belongs to the elephant (again I'm giving the elephant the benefit of the doubt).Okay, this takes a little bit more magnanimity. But c'mon, it's only a tiny area out of your whole house. I mean most people keep junk is their homes on spaces they will never use. Why not give up this tiny space for the sake of peace. If you still find it difficult to give up, consider it as charity, an ant in need of a home.Again I want to say, this excuse cannot hold water anymore._________________________________________________________________It doesn't matter who is an elephant and who is an ant. By that logic a single murderer is a flee. Does that mean a country does not have the right to impede that flea from attacking it's citizens merely because they have more military might?Regardless of what military might Hamas has, suicide bombings and rockets can and have killed Israeli citizens. Israel has a responsibiltiy to its citizens to stop Hamas from getting weapons.Do you honestly expect the Israeli government to tell the families of victimes of suicide bombings they are not taking any recourse because they have decided to "afford to be a little magnanimous."As for giving up the land. That is what Israel did when they forced every Jew out of the Gaza Strip. The Gaza Strip has now been ethnically cleansed of its Jews but that has not stopped the attacks from the Gaza Strip. In fact, they have intesified. Wed 23 Jun 2010 22:22:27 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=97#comment1616 1611. At 10:20pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1607. At 10:03pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:1602. At 9:35pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1598. At 9:19pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"To get back to your original question. Did you ask all of them?"-----------------------------------------I don't need to. I don't believe in free will. Therefore Brits do not believe in free will. Some may, but Brits as a whole do not.Then do not hold other people to a standard that you will not meet."------------------------------------------Have you had a logic bypass operation? To prove that a whole group of people believe something, you need to show that they all believe that "something".To prove that a whole group of people do not believe something, you only need to show that one member of that group does not believe that "something".To get back to your original question below/1578. At 7:19pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1575. At 7:02pm on 23 Jun 2010, skamble wrote:"Well, for starters, Jews believe in free will."---------------------------------------------You've asked every Jew in the world if they believe in free will? Or it that another generalisation based upon how you think Jews view the world?You've asked every Brit in the world if they believe in free will? Or it that another generalisation based upon how you think Brits view the world?As stated before. Do not ask others to meet a standard that you will not. Wed 23 Jun 2010 22:16:50 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=97#comment1615 1608. At 10:11pm on 23 Jun 2010, Jeff Phua wrote:1605. At 10:02pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:1599. At 9:30pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:Water is needed to create components for some weapons, so I assume you would support Israel banning water, or any other liquid, for that matter. Maybe they could ban air as well, on the grounds that is required for explosions.Oh how ignorant you are, obviously you do not have an inquiring mind, or maybe just closed minded.If one item for making an explosive is unobtainable then the explosive cannot be made even when all other items are readily available. Simple logic. So ASSume any thing you like. An assumption will generally make an ASS of one,Again you show your ignorance. A low explosive burns with its inbuilt oxygen supply so outside air is not required. As for banning air. As air is all around us would you suggest strangulation as a suitable method of depriving Palestinians of oxygen. Just thought I would ask because I would not think of such a thing.A high explosive does not burn, it is a chemical reaction that is not burning. In fact plastic explosive can be safely burned and has sometimes been used as solid fuel to cook with by soldiers. I have seen this done.I don't think you realise how ridiculous your attempted justifications for the denial of such basic items looks.I know ridiculous arguments when I see them, got any good ones?===================================================================Wah! so clever.I cannot help your ignorance of the facts either. Grow up. Wed 23 Jun 2010 22:05:38 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=97#comment1614 1604. At 9:51pm on 23 Jun 2010, Jeff Phua wrote:[a lot if nonsense]Two wonderful plans to solve all the problems of the ME. Rather than congratulating yourself of your own brilliance, take your masterful strokes of genius to the UN, Hanas and Israel. I can hardly wait for the world shattering guffaws to start. 15 minutes of fame will be all yours to bask in.====================================================================Sorry, I don't normally reply to posts not relevent to the topic.But I'm doing it just once, just to let you know.What a copout dude. You have the gall to start the ball rolling and then tell me it is not relevant. Grow up. ==================================================================Is there a question in there that you need me to answer to? I don't see any question marks. So do you agree that there is no need for a reply?Another copout. Evade the issue and make out the other party is at fault. The typical copout.and another response, to the same initial post!1606. At 10:02pm on 23 Jun 2010, Jeff Phua wrote:[a lot if nonsense]Two wonderful plans to solve all the problems of the ME. Rather than congratulating yourself of your own brilliance, take your masterful strokes of genius to the UN, Hanas and Israel. I can hardly wait for the world shattering guffaws to start. 15 minutes of fame will be all yours to bask in.====================================================================Sorry, I don't normally reply to posts not relevent to the topic.But I'm doing it just once, just to let you know.What a copout dude. You have the gall to start the ball rolling and then tell me it is not relevant. Grow up. ======================================================================I don't see a question anywhere. So, what do you want me to reply to?Actually nothing.Or do you want me to make fun of you? Sorry, I'm too grown up for that.If you insist on digging the hole you are in deeper, go ahead. That is your general modus operandi when you cannot bend someone to your will or are feeling just plain cantankerous. I must say that you are not very good at it. But go ahead, my shoulders are broad and I do not mind. Its that mind over matter thing. Two replies to the same post both in a defensive vain show that you do indeed mind. As I suggested before. Grow up. Wising up would also help then you would not make such absurd suggestions that started this in the first place. And all this because you objected to my comment that Hammas was being somewhat stupid for continually antagonizing Israel. After all when you are a mouse and you are sleeping next to an elephant it is wise not to tickle the elephant so it rolls over. The rights and wrong of the situation are irreverent, the wisdom is not. Wed 23 Jun 2010 22:01:56 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=97#comment1613 1597. At 9:16pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"Tea and coffee both contain tanic acid that when mixed with 2 other chemicals make an explosive that is set off by adding water."-------------------------------------Tea does not contain tannic acid. It contains tannin. Tannic acid is a specific commercial form of tannin, but the form of tannin in tea is different to that in tannic acid. I believe the same is true of coffee, in that it contains tannin, but not tannic acid. Wed 23 Jun 2010 22:00:22 GMT+1 Aaron http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=97#comment1612 to alex (1373)WHAT world do you live in???!!! to say that - chocolate, corriander, pasta, books, musical instuments.... and the list goes on can be used as weapons. your agument is completely illogical and you add insult to injury by trying to spin the argument towards the tunnels. The blockage and the tunnels are not linked, except for the fact that it is the blockade that has caused the tunnels to flourish.To say that Israel has the right for collective punishment (which is what barring this items from entering causes) because Hamas supposedly uses the tunnels to import weapons into the gaza strip is complete rubbish! Wed 23 Jun 2010 21:49:21 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=97#comment1611 1605. At 10:02pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"1599. At 9:30pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:"Water is needed to create components for some weapons, so I assume you would support Israel banning water, or any other liquid, for that matter. Maybe they could ban air as well, on the grounds that is required for explosions."Oh how ignorant you are, obviously you do not have an inquiring mind, or maybe just closed minded.If one item for making an explosive is unobtainable then the explosive cannot be made even when all other items are readily available. Simple logic."-----------------------------------Simple logic which you apply selectively. You stop metals for rockets being made, yet you still attempt to justify the banning of everyday items which could possibly (according to you) be made into rocket fuels. So, applying your logic, you should want water and air banned from Gaza as well, for the same reason. Wed 23 Jun 2010 21:26:09 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=97#comment1610 1607. At 10:03pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:1602. At 9:35pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1598. At 9:19pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"To get back to your original question. Did you ask all of them?"-----------------------------------------I don't need to. I don't believe in free will. Therefore Brits do not believe in free will. Some may, but Brits as a whole do not.Then do not hold other people to a standard that you will not meet."------------------------------------------Have you had a logic bypass operation? To prove that a whole group of people believe something, you need to show that they all believe that "something".To prove that a whole group of people do not believe something, you only need to show that one member of that group does not believe that "something". Wed 23 Jun 2010 21:20:23 GMT+1 _marko http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=97#comment1609 To panchopablo #1603RE: oppressor or victim?Please let us know the general conditions that enable people to distinguish between these two labels.We can then compare various groups to see which category they fit into.(presumably it's the same as defence and attack, they're indistinguisable when it come to 60 years of Middle East conflict) Wed 23 Jun 2010 21:16:17 GMT+1 Jeff Phua http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=97#comment1608 1607. At 10:03pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:1602. At 9:35pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1598. At 9:19pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"To get back to your original question. Did you ask all of them?"-----------------------------------------I don't need to. I don't believe in free will. Therefore Brits do not believe in free will. Some may, but Brits as a whole do not.Then do not hold other people to a standard that you will not meet.==============================================================So, do you believe in free will, then, Cariboo? Wed 23 Jun 2010 21:16:06 GMT+1 Jeff Phua http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=97#comment1607 1605. At 10:02pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:1599. At 9:30pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:Water is needed to create components for some weapons, so I assume you would support Israel banning water, or any other liquid, for that matter. Maybe they could ban air as well, on the grounds that is required for explosions.Oh how ignorant you are, obviously you do not have an inquiring mind, or maybe just closed minded.If one item for making an explosive is unobtainable then the explosive cannot be made even when all other items are readily available. Simple logic. So ASSume any thing you like. An assumption will generally make an ASS of one,Again you show your ignorance. A low explosive burns with its inbuilt oxygen supply so outside air is not required. As for banning air. As air is all around us would you suggest strangulation as a suitable method of depriving Palestinians of oxygen. Just thought I would ask because I would not think of such a thing.A high explosive does not burn, it is a chemical reaction that is not burning. In fact plastic explosive can be safely burned and has sometimes been used as solid fuel to cook with by soldiers. I have seen this done.I don't think you realise how ridiculous your attempted justifications for the denial of such basic items looks.I know ridiculous arguments when I see them, got any good ones?===================================================================Wah! so clever. Wed 23 Jun 2010 21:11:17 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=97#comment1606 1602. At 9:35pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1598. At 9:19pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"To get back to your original question. Did you ask all of them?"-----------------------------------------I don't need to. I don't believe in free will. Therefore Brits do not believe in free will. Some may, but Brits as a whole do not.Then do not hold other people to a standard that you will not meet. Wed 23 Jun 2010 21:03:58 GMT+1 Jeff Phua http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=97#comment1605 1601. At 9:32pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:1596. At 9:15pm on 23 Jun 2010, Jeff Phua wrote:1586. At 8:22pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:1511. At 09:21am on 23 Jun 2010, Jeff Phua wrote:[a lot if nonsense]Two wonderful plans to solve all the problems of the ME. Rather than congratulating yourself of your own brilliance, take your masterful strokes of genius to the UN, Hanas and Israel. I can hardly wait for the world shattering guffaws to start. 15 minutes of fame will be all yours to bask in.====================================================================Sorry, I don't normally reply to posts not relevent to the topic.But I'm doing it just once, just to let you know.What a copout dude. You have the gall to start the ball rolling and then tell me it is not relevant. Grow up. ======================================================================I don't see a question anywhere. So, what do you want me to reply to?Or do you want me to make fun of you? Sorry, I'm too grown up for that. Wed 23 Jun 2010 21:02:25 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=96#comment1604 1599. At 9:30pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote: Water is needed to create components for some weapons, so I assume you would support Israel banning water, or any other liquid, for that matter. Maybe they could ban air as well, on the grounds that is required for explosions.Oh how ignorant you are, obviously you do not have an inquiring mind, or maybe just closed minded.If one item for making an explosive is unobtainable then the explosive cannot be made even when all other items are readily available. Simple logic. So ASSume any thing you like. An assumption will generally make an ASS of one,Again you show your ignorance. A low explosive burns with its inbuilt oxygen supply so outside air is not required. As for banning air. As air is all around us would you suggest strangulation as a suitable method of depriving Palestinians of oxygen. Just thought I would ask because I would not think of such a thing.A high explosive does not burn, it is a chemical reaction that is not burning. In fact plastic explosive can be safely burned and has sometimes been used as solid fuel to cook with by soldiers. I have seen this done. I don't think you realise how ridiculous your attempted justifications for the denial of such basic items looks.I know ridiculous arguments when I see them, got any good ones? Wed 23 Jun 2010 21:02:00 GMT+1 Jeff Phua http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=96#comment1603 1601. At 9:32pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:1596. At 9:15pm on 23 Jun 2010, Jeff Phua wrote:1586. At 8:22pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:1511. At 09:21am on 23 Jun 2010, Jeff Phua wrote:[a lot if nonsense]Two wonderful plans to solve all the problems of the ME. Rather than congratulating yourself of your own brilliance, take your masterful strokes of genius to the UN, Hanas and Israel. I can hardly wait for the world shattering guffaws to start. 15 minutes of fame will be all yours to bask in.====================================================================Sorry, I don't normally reply to posts not relevent to the topic.But I'm doing it just once, just to let you know.What a copout dude. You have the gall to start the ball rolling and then tell me it is not relevant. Grow up. ==================================================================Is there a question in there that you need me to answer to? I don't see any question marks. So do you agree that there is no need for a reply? Wed 23 Jun 2010 20:51:43 GMT+1 panchopablo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=96#comment1602 1591. At 8:44pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1588. At 8:27pm on 23 Jun 2010, panchopablo wrote:"If scuds do end up being fired upon Israel from Gaza or Southern Lebanon what will your reation be?,Israel deserves it?."-----------------------------------------"Do people have the right to fight back against their oppressors? I think they do.Do they have the right to target civilians? If the oppressor is also targeting civilians, yes they do.Stop the oppression, give the land back, and the rockets stop."The oppressor?.How ignorant you are Dave to the reality of the ME.No firing into Israeli towns,no trying to kidnap soldiers and incursions into Israel and the Gazans will live in peace.Palestinians leaders have no interest in peace as long as Western idealists like yourself continue believe propaganda that Israel is the oppressor and the poor Palestinians are the victims.I honestly believe that the Palestinian state is impossible.Time to start talking three state solution...Israel,Eygpt and Jordan. Wed 23 Jun 2010 20:43:07 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=96#comment1601 1598. At 9:19pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"To get back to your original question. Did you ask all of them?"-----------------------------------------I don't need to. I don't believe in free will. Therefore Brits do not believe in free will. Some may, but Brits as a whole do not. Wed 23 Jun 2010 20:35:34 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=96#comment1600 1596. At 9:15pm on 23 Jun 2010, Jeff Phua wrote:1586. At 8:22pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:1511. At 09:21am on 23 Jun 2010, Jeff Phua wrote:[a lot if nonsense]Two wonderful plans to solve all the problems of the ME. Rather than congratulating yourself of your own brilliance, take your masterful strokes of genius to the UN, Hanas and Israel. I can hardly wait for the world shattering guffaws to start. 15 minutes of fame will be all yours to bask in.====================================================================Sorry, I don't normally reply to posts not relevent to the topic.But I'm doing it just once, just to let you know.What a copout dude. You have the gall to start the ball rolling and then tell me it is not relevant. Grow up. Wed 23 Jun 2010 20:32:41 GMT+1 Jeff Phua http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=96#comment1599 1568. At 6:19pm on 23 Jun 2010, Stella di Davide wrote:"Those are labels given by others. I am neither an oppressor nor a victim.The vilification of the Jews, Israelis or Zionists (choose which ever term you prefer)is not about the alleged oppression of the Palestinians.By those standards every nation would be considered an oppressive nation.Israel has no option and every right to defend itself. Perhaps it's the idea of Jews with guns that doesn't sit well, even with some Jews. Face facts. Israel is at war with Hamas. A war Hamas declared. To defend themselves the Israelis need to take up arms.Ask Israelis and their government 'would you be happy to live side by side with a peaceful Palestinian nation?'Every single Israeli I know, even those who are considered right wing, will reply YES!Then ask the same of Hamas."=======================================================================Of course if you ask them 'would you be happy to live side by side with a peaceful Israeli nation?', they would say yes.But the problem is Israel is not quite a peaceful nation.I have nothing against Israeli in general. What I'm against specifically is the agressive policies of the Israeli government. I remember the Lebanese war was fought in the mist of an election. To take the lives of 1000+ because of an election is just not right.If John Terry can speak out against the England manager, I think Israelis can speak out against it's government's policies. After all, England scored their first win after two draws after John Terry spoke out against the manager. Wed 23 Jun 2010 20:32:18 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=96#comment1598 1597. At 9:16pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"1585. At 8:13pm on 23 Jun 2010, Aaron wrote:What world do you live in??!!! where its possible to make weapons out of"light bulbs, candles, matches, books, musical instruments, crayons, clothing, shoes, mattresses, sheets, blankets, pasta, tea, coffee, chocolate, nuts, shampoo and conditioner"Light bulbs can be adapted into a remote ignition system for possibly setting of a bomb or rocket.Match heads do not require oxygen to burn and can be used to make bombs or incendiary's.Candles and wax crayons can be used to make incendiary's and a crude but effective flame thrower.Tea and coffee both contain tanic acid that when mixed with 2 other chemicals make an explosive that is set off by adding water.Anything made of cotton can be chemically treated and turned into solid rocket fuel and or an explosive. Cotton is almost pure cellulose.Paper is almost pure cellulose, see cotton.Pasta is a starch and can be chemically treated in the same manner as cotton. As a finished product it was used in hand grenades during WW2.I gleaned all of this on the internet, youtube has many videos of kids doing dangerous things with ordinary items, coffee mate is one, it blew me away especially the demo by MIT."---------------------------------------Water is needed to create components for some weapons, so I assume you would support Israel banning water, or any other liquid, for that matter. Maybe they could ban air as well, on the grounds that is required for explosions.I don't think you realise how ridiculous your attempted justifications for the denial of such basic items looks.Just stop weapons and obvious weapon components and let the rest through. Israel is behaving like Hamas's recruiting sergeant. Wed 23 Jun 2010 20:30:16 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=96#comment1597 1592. At 8:48pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1589. At 8:31pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"Lets ask a similar question. Do the Brits believe in free will and if yes or no, produce the evidence."-----------------------------------------------No. At least not all of them. I don't. There's your evidence.To get back to your original question. Did you ask all of them? Wed 23 Jun 2010 20:19:58 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=96#comment1596 1585. At 8:13pm on 23 Jun 2010, Aaron wrote:What world do you live in??!!! where its possible to make weapons out of "light bulbs, candles, matches, books, musical instruments, crayons, clothing, shoes, mattresses, sheets, blankets, pasta, tea, coffee, chocolate, nuts, shampoo and conditioner"Light bulbs can be adapted into a remote ignition system for possibly setting of a bomb or rocket. Match heads do not require oxygen to burn and can be used to make bombs or incendiary's.Candles and wax crayons can be used to make incendiary's and a crude but effective flame thrower.Tea and coffee both contain tanic acid that when mixed with 2 other chemicals make an explosive that is set off by adding water.Anything made of cotton can be chemically treated and turned into solid rocket fuel and or an explosive. Cotton is almost pure cellulose.Paper is almost pure cellulose, see cotton. Pasta is a starch and can be chemically treated in the same manner as cotton. As a finished product it was used in hand grenades during WW2.I gleaned all of this on the internet, youtube has many videos of kids doing dangerous things with ordinary items, coffee mate is one, it blew me away especially the demo by MIT.I cannot speak for the other items listed but I suspect that they also could have unusual uses with a bit of chemistry.I would add that shampoo and conditioner are not necessary at all. We used to use soap and rinse with vinegar water in my living memory. Wed 23 Jun 2010 20:16:41 GMT+1 Jeff Phua http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=96#comment1595 1586. At 8:22pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:1511. At 09:21am on 23 Jun 2010, Jeff Phua wrote:[a lot if nonsense]Two wonderful plans to solve all the problems of the ME. Rather than congratulating yourself of your own brilliance, take your masterful strokes of genius to the UN, Hanas and Israel. I can hardly wait for the world shattering guffaws to start. 15 minutes of fame will be all yours to bask in.====================================================================Sorry, I don't normally reply to posts not relevent to the topic.But I'm doing it just once, just to let you know. Wed 23 Jun 2010 20:15:02 GMT+1 Jeff Phua http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=96#comment1594 1581. At 7:43pm on 23 Jun 2010, blankall wrote:Nikos wrote:When Arafat was in power Israel claimed that he was the reason that there was no progress in the peace talk and demanded election to be held. After Arafat's demise the elections took place and Hamas was elected to power. Now Israel is simply punishing Palestinians for voting Hamas. It seems that democracy is acceptable only when it get the results the strong want (and that goes for any other regime also). Well that is the legacy England, France and later US give to middle east._______________________________________________________________Having democracy does not mean you are free from the consequences of your decisions. The fact the people of Gaza voted for Hamas makes them more liable for Hamas' actions, not less.When you vote in a government that vows to destroy your neighbour and then does everything in their power to do so, don't be surprised when your neighbour fights back.======================================================================In military terms and land mass, Israel is an elephant and Gaza is an ant.If your neighbor (the ant) says that he is going to destroy you (the elephant) because you have accidentally(note that I'm giving the elephant the benefit of the doubt) stomped on and destroyed his front porch, you can take the magnanimous stand and say that he is a retard because there is no way he can destroy you. He hasn't got the means or power no matter how hard he tries. And you walk away.Conversely, if you are vengeful and feels slighted by what he said, you can continue to destroy his home. Out of anger and desperation, because he has just lost a home, he (the ant) bites you (the elephant) at the back of you ear. You (the elephant), then complains to the Lion King.Who is right and who is wrong? But being big, I think you can afford to be a little magnanimous. Because words and bites can't break my bones, but the elephant's foot can do great damage to the ant.I wish people would stop using this as an excuse. It cannot hold water anymore.But then I hear people complaining that the land in which the ant builds its home belongs to the elephant (again I'm giving the elephant the benefit of the doubt).Okay, this takes a little bit more magnanimity. But c'mon, it's only a tiny area out of your whole house. I mean most people keep junk is their homes on spaces they will never use. Why not give up this tiny space for the sake of peace. If you still find it difficult to give up, consider it as charity, an ant in need of a home.Again I want to say, this excuse cannot hold water anymore. Wed 23 Jun 2010 20:01:28 GMT+1 OTT http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=96#comment1593 As I have read the posts on here and there seems to be a lot of Israeli bashing without any recourse to facts. Mandate for 'Palestine' Article 6 gave Israelis the right to settle in the areas now known as Gaza and "West Bank". The Israelis are perfectly entitled to establish and enforce a blockade, under the San Remo Manual for International Law Aplicable for Conflict at Sea. There is and never has been a civilisation known as 'Palestinian'. They are not native to the land. In fact many hundreds if not thousands of 'Palestinians' are descended from immigrant families who flooded into the area looking for jobs between the 1800s and 1900s. The term 'Palestinian' is also not exclusive to Arabs as Jews and Christians were also known as 'Palestinians'. Also its important to note that there would have been no Gaza or "West Bank" had the Arabs not invaded in 1948. Wed 23 Jun 2010 19:59:00 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=96#comment1592 1590. At 8:43pm on 23 Jun 2010, skamble wrote:"Dave__G wrote:"You've asked every Jew in the world if they believe in free will?Or it that another generalisation based upon how you think Jews view the world?"-This is a part of Jewish religion."-----------------------------------------------But many (most?) Jews are not religious. I'm not religious, and I recall seeing a poll which said that 52% of Jews didn't believe in God (see, I can even type his name!). Wed 23 Jun 2010 19:57:02 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=96#comment1591 1589. At 8:31pm on 23 Jun 2010, Cariboo wrote:"Lets ask a similar question. Do the Brits believe in free will and if yes or no, produce the evidence."-----------------------------------------------No. At least not all of them. I don't. There's your evidence. Wed 23 Jun 2010 19:48:59 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=96#comment1590 1588. At 8:27pm on 23 Jun 2010, panchopablo wrote:"If scuds do end up being fired upon Israel from Gaza or Southern Lebanon what will your reation be?,Israel deserves it?."-----------------------------------------Do people have the right to fight back against their oppressors? I think they do.Do they have the right to target civilians? If the oppressor is also targeting civilians, yes they do.Stop the oppression, give the land back, and the rockets stop. Wed 23 Jun 2010 19:44:26 GMT+1 skamble http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=96#comment1589 Dave__G wrote:"You've asked every Jew in the world if they believe in free will? Or it that another generalisation based upon how you think Jews view the world?"-This is a part of Jewish religion. Wed 23 Jun 2010 19:43:49 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=96#comment1588 1578. At 7:19pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1575. At 7:02pm on 23 Jun 2010, skamble wrote:"Well, for starters, Jews believe in free will."---------------------------------------------You've asked every Jew in the world if they believe in free will?Or it that another generalisation based upon how you think Jews view the world?Lets ask a similar question. Do the Brits believe in free will and if yes or no, produce the evidence. Wed 23 Jun 2010 19:31:24 GMT+1 panchopablo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=95#comment1587 1579. At 7:21pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1576. At 7:08pm on 23 Jun 2010, panchopablo wrote:"1572. At 6:55pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:"But that would still have left an armed government of Lebanon, so I ask again, why should Israel be the only country in the world with a totally disarmed neighbour? Why are there not disarmed countries all over the world, thanks to UN resolutions in support of their disarming? Why is it only Israel which gets resolutions of that sort passed by the UN?"Dave,I have no idea what you are spouting on about.Israel has never stated it wants all it Arabs countries disarmed,it wants the Hizbollah and HAMAS and all the other Arab controlled and funded terrorist organisation disarmed.Arab countries and terrorist organisations are two different things."--------------------------------------"So Israel wouldn't have a problem with non-Hamas people in Gaza owning scuds?"It really depends if the owners are responsible enough to have such weapons.Any group with the same ideaology of firing them into Sderot and killing many Israelis do not.If scuds do end up being fired upon Israel from Gaza or Southern Lebanon what will your reation be?,Israel deserves it?. Wed 23 Jun 2010 19:27:58 GMT+1 Lael Kim http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=95#comment1586 Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Wed 23 Jun 2010 19:24:22 GMT+1 Cariboo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=95#comment1585 1511. At 09:21am on 23 Jun 2010, Jeff Phua wrote:[a lot if nonsense]Two wonderful plans to solve all the problems of the ME. Rather than congratulating yourself of your own brilliance, take your masterful strokes of genius to the UN, Hanas and Israel. I can hardly wait for the world shattering guffaws to start. 15 minutes of fame will be all yours to bask in. Wed 23 Jun 2010 19:22:53 GMT+1 Aaron http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=95#comment1584 To alex 1373What world do you live in??!!! where its possible to make weapons out of ""light bulbs, candles, matches, books, musical instruments, crayons, clothing, shoes, mattresses, sheets, blankets, pasta, tea, coffee, chocolate, nuts, shampoo and conditioner" (BBC Website)The list above is what has been banned from entering Gaza under this blockade. don't try to spin the conversation into Hamas bringing weapons through tunnels. The tunnels and the blockade are separate occurrences. The tunnels arn't going to change any time soon. Israel created an environment where the digging of tunnels became more prevalent and now has to deal with a problem it does not have complete control over. Wed 23 Jun 2010 19:13:42 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=95#comment1583 1581. At 7:43pm on 23 Jun 2010, blankall wrote:"Having democracy does not mean you are free from the consequences of your decisions. The fact the people of Gaza voted for Hamas makes them more liable for Hamas' actions, not less."-----------------------------------------And the people of Israel voted for Netanyahu, so they are equally liable for their government's action, I assume. So I won't see you moaning about the injustice of Hamas rockets targeting Israeli civilians, will I? Wed 23 Jun 2010 19:06:57 GMT+1 blankall http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=95#comment1582 Dave__G wrote:1576. At 7:08pm on 23 Jun 2010, panchopablo wrote:"1572. At 6:55pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:"But that would still have left an armed government of Lebanon, so I ask again, why should Israel be the only country in the world with a totally disarmed neighbour? Why are there not disarmed countries all over the world, thanks to UN resolutions in support of their disarming? Why is it only Israel which gets resolutions of that sort passed by the UN?"Dave,I have no idea what you are spouting on about.Israel has never stated it wants all it Arabs countries disarmed,it wants the Hizbollah and HAMAS and all the other Arab controlled and funded terrorist organisation disarmed.Arab countries and terrorist organisations are two different things."--------------------------------------So Israel wouldn't have a problem with non-Hamas people in Gaza owning scuds?________________________________________________________________If those scuds were owned by an actual government that Israel was not in a state of war with, I doubt Israel would have a problem. Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt all have lots of scuds. They all border Israel. All their governments are in possession of scuds.In the case of Hamas, it wasn't even a case of them just havign them. They were actually using every weapon they had against Israel. So obviously, Israel is going to take an interst in stopping Hamas from getting more weapons.The idea of disarming parties in a war is nothing new. Germany was disarmed following both world wars. Japan remains largely disarmed. A no fly zone was placed on Iraq following the gulf war. etc etc etc Wed 23 Jun 2010 18:54:38 GMT+1 Edward Evanko http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=95#comment1581 I remember well in the 90s when Palestine was authorized to spend 150 million dollars outside their area to purchase products, however, they had to buy first from Israel, and if Israel couldn't fill the bill they could go to other countries for products. At the same time, goods from other countries going to the Palestinians had to go through Israel where it was taxed. Also an agreement by Israel to purchase produce from Palestine. When the trucks loaded with produce arrived at the check point, the vehicles sat for two or more weeks and when inspected found the produce rotten. What good is lifting the blockade when cement is being denied to Palestinians? They need to build homes etc., so this is just another Israeli Scam! Wed 23 Jun 2010 18:54:24 GMT+1 blankall http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=95#comment1580 Nikos wrote:When Arafat was in power Israel claimed that he was the reason that there was no progress in the peace talk and demanded election to be held. After Arafat's demise the elections took place and Hamas was elected to power. Now Israel is simply punishing Palestinians for voting Hamas. It seems that democracy is acceptable only when it get the results the strong want (and that goes for any other regime also). Well that is the legacy England, France and later US give to middle east. _______________________________________________________________Having democracy does not mean you are free from the consequences of your decisions. The fact the people of Gaza voted for Hamas makes them more liable for Hamas' actions, not less.When you vote in a government that vows to destroy your neighbour and then does everything in their power to do so, don't be surprised when your neighbour fights back. Wed 23 Jun 2010 18:43:25 GMT+1 Kto-to http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=95#comment1579 1487. At 00:22am on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote: The truth of the matter is that the Zionists were not given the amount of land that they hoped for by the UN's creation of the state of Israel and were determined to grab more land during the inevitable war which would follow the creation of Israel.----------------------------------------------------------------------------Well, there is another difference between quotes, one is a public call and the other is an entry in a private diary. Despite all the archive digging by “new historians” they failed to produce one scrap of paper with the government directive for the transfer. Let’s also compare “implementation”. What is the percentage of Arabs who left in Israel after the war vs. to the percentage of the Jews left in Jordan? It’s also my impression that not only Zionist were not happy with the division, Arab Nationalists never accepted it either.Anyway the Jewish exodus from Arab countries exceeds the Arab exodus from Israel. The only difference is that Israel absorbed the Jewish refugees while Arab countries are nurturing the “refugees’ problem” by denying them equal rights and opportunities. Wed 23 Jun 2010 18:38:13 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=95#comment1578 1576. At 7:08pm on 23 Jun 2010, panchopablo wrote:"1572. At 6:55pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:"But that would still have left an armed government of Lebanon, so I ask again, why should Israel be the only country in the world with a totally disarmed neighbour? Why are there not disarmed countries all over the world, thanks to UN resolutions in support of their disarming? Why is it only Israel which gets resolutions of that sort passed by the UN?"Dave,I have no idea what you are spouting on about.Israel has never stated it wants all it Arabs countries disarmed,it wants the Hizbollah and HAMAS and all the other Arab controlled and funded terrorist organisation disarmed.Arab countries and terrorist organisations are two different things."--------------------------------------So Israel wouldn't have a problem with non-Hamas people in Gaza owning scuds? Wed 23 Jun 2010 18:21:53 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=95#comment1577 1575. At 7:02pm on 23 Jun 2010, skamble wrote:"Well, for starters, Jews believe in free will."---------------------------------------------You've asked every Jew in the world if they believe in free will? Or it that another generalisation based upon how you think Jews view the world? Wed 23 Jun 2010 18:19:25 GMT+1 _marko http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=95#comment1576 To Stella di Davide #1568"Israel has no option and every right to defend itself"The argument of self-defence.So this argument also applies to other groups and countries too, not just Israel.If this was a powerful argument you would be able to list what makes something a defensive or offensive action.The fact that you are unable to do this (particularly in the context of the Middle East!) renders the argument of defence meaningless. When it comes to such a long conflict you'll have difficulty expressing the distinction.I'm not interested in who started it just in who's going to stop it. Wed 23 Jun 2010 18:14:13 GMT+1 panchopablo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=95#comment1575 1572. At 6:55pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:"But that would still have left an armed government of Lebanon, so I ask again, why should Israel be the only country in the world with a totally disarmed neighbour? Why are there not disarmed countries all over the world, thanks to UN resolutions in support of their disarming? Why is it only Israel which gets resolutions of that sort passed by the UN?"Dave, I have no idea what you are spouting on about.Israel has never stated it wants all it Arabs countries disarmed,it wants the Hizbollah and HAMAS and all the other Arab controlled and funded terrorist organisation disarmed.Arab countries and terrorist organisations are two different things. Wed 23 Jun 2010 18:08:35 GMT+1 skamble http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=95#comment1574 Dave__G wrote: (In response to my statement that Dave__G seems to me to be Palestinian rather than Jewish)"...Obviously I can't be Jewish, because I don't agree with you, and your views about what a Jew should think are "The Truth". Funnily enough, that also applies to most British Jews that I know..."Well, for starters, Jews believe in free will. This means that no one can dictate what is the truth, because all people have the ability to think freely all by themselves, if they wish to exercise this ability.There is a saying in Israel that for any two Israelis there are three would-be Prime Ministers. What this saying means is that not only Jews do not agree with each other, but each of them may also harbor opposing opinions.As for opinions of British Jews that Dave__G knows - well, if Dave__G is British and Jewish there would be lots of British Jews he would know and likely they would not all agree with each other. I know rather superficially just one British Jewish person, Amy Winehouse. Does she believe that what she is saying is The Truth? Having read the lyrics of some of her songs, I greatly doubt this. Wed 23 Jun 2010 18:02:19 GMT+1 Stella di Davide http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=95#comment1573 1570. At 6:36pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1568. At 6:19pm on 23 Jun 2010, Stella di Davide wrote:"Those are labels given by others. I am neither an oppressor nor a victim.The vilification of the Jews, Israelis or Zionists (choose which ever term you prefer)is not about the alleged oppression of the Palestinians.By those standards every nation would be considered an oppressive nation.Israel has no option and every right to defend itself. Perhaps it's the idea of Jews with guns that doesn't sit well, even with some Jews. Face facts. Israel is at war with Hamas. A war Hamas declared. To defend themselves the Israelis need to take up arms.Ask Israelis and their government 'would you be happy to live side by side with a peaceful Palestinian nation?'Every single Israeli I know, even those who are considered right wing, will reply YES!Then ask the same of Hamas."---------------------------------------------But I recall the same "they are terrorists who will never change" nonsense being said about Arafat's PLO.Yet Arafat explicitly accepted Israel's right to exist and vowed to seek agreement through peaceful means. What happened to him? Israel besieged him in a bunker in Ramallah, rather than doing a peace deal with him.Now Hamas are the bad guys and the renamed PLO are the good guys. If Hamas renounce violence and accept Israel's right to exist, no doubt the Israeli government will find some other excuse to avoid negotiating a real peace deal.Israel was founded on, and is driven by, the dream of Eretz Israel. Peace is the last thing the Israel government wants, because settled borders would stop Eretz Israel from happening. The present political limbo of the Palestinian people is exactly what Israel wants, as it allows them to nibble away at Palestinian land by building yet more settlements.I'm not anti-Israel, I'm anti-Greater-Israel.-----------------------------To suggest you're not anti-Israel and at the same time to suggest that it continues with a hopeless armed struggle just to take 3 miles of land is, to be honest, a little rich.It makes me sad to know that, as many Jews send their children to fight in a war which should not be happening, when much of the world condemns us for trying to defend ourselves, there are Jews who will actually seek out ways to demonise Israel.I can see we will never agree on this so will bow out gracefully. Sincerely I say, may peace be upon you. Wed 23 Jun 2010 17:59:46 GMT+1 euroyankee http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=95#comment1572 @651(?)EnglishByBlood - you make an excellent point, that (paraphrasing) "here on the American side of the pond not much is heard about the Palestinian plight". Indeed, Americans may feel differently on this issue if they heard the other side of the story. But if you're going to make that point, you certainly must be prepared for someone to mention that the European press is guilty of the same thing, by constantly glorifying the the PLO, Hamaas, Arafat, and Palestine in general, while at the same time villifying Isreal. You can call it Anti-Semitism, or you can just call it one-sided reporting. Whatever the case, neither side of the Atlantic gets treated to even 50/50 coverage on this topic. On a different note, @WastingMyTimeandYours, how about a little decorum/respect when addressing your fellow debaters? If the moderators won't ask, I will. Tchuss! Wed 23 Jun 2010 17:59:34 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=94#comment1571 1571. At 6:39pm on 23 Jun 2010, panchopablo wrote:"1564. At 5:29pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1553. At 2:12pm on 23 Jun 2010, panchopablo wrote:"I suggest you read up on Iran and Syria supplying Hizbollah with Scud missiles and ask yourself is Israel willing to allow HAMAS to have scuds?."---------------------------------------"Why should Israel be the only country in the world with totally disarmed neighbours?"Well Dave,Under the resolution that ended the 2006 Lebanon war,the government of Lebanon was ordered to disarm Hizbollah."-------------------------------------------------But that would still have left an armed government of Lebanon, so I ask again, why should Israel be the only country in the world with a totally disarmed neighbour? Why are there not disarmed countries all over the world, thanks to UN resolutions in support of their disarming? Why is it only Israel which gets resolutions of that sort passed by the UN? Wed 23 Jun 2010 17:55:57 GMT+1 panchopablo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=94#comment1570 1564. At 5:29pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1553. At 2:12pm on 23 Jun 2010, panchopablo wrote:"I suggest you read up on Iran and Syria supplying Hizbollah with Scud missiles and ask yourself is Israel willing to allow HAMAS to have scuds?."---------------------------------------"Why should Israel be the only country in the world with totally disarmed neighbours?"Well Dave, Under the resolution that ended the 2006 Lebanon war,the government of Lebanon was ordered to disarm Hizbollah.Oh wait,they didnt did they,they defied a resolution,all those crying about Israel not following resolutions and there enemies do not either.Hypocrisy at its best.Remember Dave, The next time Irans poodle starts a war it will fully legitmate thanks to Hizbollah participation in the government.So no moaning,in fact with scuds,Hizbollah may kill many Israelis,will you and the ignorant people on here feel pity for the Israelis or will the AWB protest in London waving the Hizbollah flags like they did in 2006?.No need to answer that,i am well aware there is a leftwing/Islamist alliance in this country.1533. At 12:35pm on 23 Jun 2010, non-violence wrote:"Where is the USA in all this? Since the early 1970s, the USA has used its veto power nearly fifty times, more than all other permanent members during that same period combined. As, John J. Mearsheimer, American Professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago and respected internationally, states, “since 1982, the US has vetoed 32 Security Council resolutions critical of Israel, more than the total number of vetoes cast by all the other Security Council members.”How many resolutions where directed at Israel by it Arab enemies?,how many countries have backed these resolutions thanks to Arab oil and the petro-dollar?.America has vetoed many resolutions because there always condemn Israel,never its enemies.Just like Goldstone report...............IT IS COMPLETELY BIASED.Criticism by GoldstoneGoldstone, the head of the mission which compiled the report, criticized the United Nations Human Rights Council resolution for targeting only Israel, and failing to include Hamas: "This draft resolution saddens me as it includes only allegations against Israel. There is not a single phrase condemning Hamas as we have done in the report. I hope that the council can modify the text".Hence the reason America vetoes resolutions. Wed 23 Jun 2010 17:39:28 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=94#comment1569 1568. At 6:19pm on 23 Jun 2010, Stella di Davide wrote:"Those are labels given by others. I am neither an oppressor nor a victim.The vilification of the Jews, Israelis or Zionists (choose which ever term you prefer)is not about the alleged oppression of the Palestinians.By those standards every nation would be considered an oppressive nation.Israel has no option and every right to defend itself. Perhaps it's the idea of Jews with guns that doesn't sit well, even with some Jews. Face facts. Israel is at war with Hamas. A war Hamas declared. To defend themselves the Israelis need to take up arms.Ask Israelis and their government 'would you be happy to live side by side with a peaceful Palestinian nation?'Every single Israeli I know, even those who are considered right wing, will reply YES!Then ask the same of Hamas."---------------------------------------------But I recall the same "they are terrorists who will never change" nonsense being said about Arafat's PLO. Yet Arafat explicitly accepted Israel's right to exist and vowed to seek agreement through peaceful means. What happened to him? Israel besieged him in a bunker in Ramallah, rather than doing a peace deal with him. Now Hamas are the bad guys and the renamed PLO are the good guys. If Hamas renounce violence and accept Israel's right to exist, no doubt the Israeli government will find some other excuse to avoid negotiating a real peace deal.Israel was founded on, and is driven by, the dream of Eretz Israel. Peace is the last thing the Israel government wants, because settled borders would stop Eretz Israel from happening. The present political limbo of the Palestinian people is exactly what Israel wants, as it allows them to nibble away at Palestinian land by building yet more settlements. I'm not anti-Israel, I'm anti-Greater-Israel. Wed 23 Jun 2010 17:36:37 GMT+1 Nizam Yagoub http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=94#comment1568 Israel has always tried to demonstrate the superiority of Jews over all other species and their rights as Gods chosen people promised the lands; they have acted in such a disgraceful way to realize their prophecisies with total disregard to human rights and international lawsWhat is sad is that the world, specifically the US, is letting them off off the hookHow long will it take the world to realize that is Israeli ideology is no diffrent to Apartheid and that Palestinians also have human rights? Wed 23 Jun 2010 17:23:33 GMT+1 Stella di Davide http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=94#comment1567 1561. At 5:14pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1551. At 2:00pm on 23 Jun 2010, Stella di Davide wrote:"Dave_G Wrote:Speak for Zionists, if you must, but don't claim to speak for Jews, because your views are not shared by all Jews.----------------------------I've been reading some of your previous comments with interest Dave. I thought you didn't buy into the 'Jew as a victim' ideology? Strange then when I voice the same opinion you distance yourself from the idea."------------------------------------------------It's not a straight choice between "victim" and "oppressor", IMO, as there are shades of opinion inbetween those two extremes.------------------------------------------------Those are labels given by others. I am neither an oppressor nor a victim. The vilification of the Jews, Israelis or Zionists (choose which ever term you prefer)is not about the alleged oppression of the Palestinians. By those standards every nation would be considered an oppressive nation. Israel has no option and every right to defend itself. Perhaps it's the idea of Jews with guns that doesn't sit well, even with some Jews. Face facts. Israel is at war with Hamas. A war Hamas declared. To defend themselves the Israelis need to take up arms. Ask Israelis and their government 'would you be happy to live side by side with a peaceful Palestinian nation?' Every single Israeli I know, even those who are considered right wing, will reply YES!Then ask the same of Hamas. Wed 23 Jun 2010 17:19:33 GMT+1 Planet Police http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=94#comment1566 1562. At 5:23pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1501. At 07:43am on 23 Jun 2010, skamble wrote: something very demeaning............................This discussion is not a debate about anti-semitism or Jewishness. Personal vilification and character assassination is precisely the abhorrent tactics used by Israeli war mongers and Hamas extremists that we find arrogant, narcissistic and utterly repugnant. Not helpful in any way at all. Succeeds only in confirming discriminatory and calculating nature of those type posts. Wed 23 Jun 2010 17:10:41 GMT+1 Planet Police http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=94#comment1565 This post has been Removed Wed 23 Jun 2010 16:52:41 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=94#comment1564 1548. At 1:44pm on 23 Jun 2010, Jeff Smith wrote:"The Green Line, as you well know, is the 1949 Amristace Line between Israel and her neighbours. As in, it's the PRE-1967 Israel. Not in dispute."---------------------------------------Palestinians are not bound by treaties which they did not sign. Wed 23 Jun 2010 16:34:11 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=94#comment1563 1553. At 2:12pm on 23 Jun 2010, panchopablo wrote:"I suggest you read up on Iran and Syria supplying Hizbollah with Scud missiles and ask yourself is Israel willing to allow HAMAS to have scuds?."---------------------------------------Why should Israel be the only country in the world with totally disarmed neighbours? Wed 23 Jun 2010 16:29:45 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=94#comment1562 This post has been Removed Wed 23 Jun 2010 16:28:00 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=94#comment1561 1501. At 07:43am on 23 Jun 2010, skamble wrote:"Dave__G wrote:"...Elliot Abrams was (again!) the American Zionist behind the idea and Mohammed Dahlan was the leader of the Fatah faction which launched the coup attempt. If you launch a coup against an elected government, you may get thrown off a roof, rather than invited in for a cup of tea and a chat."Elliot Abrams was an American government official. If he was a Zionist, he would have immigrated to Israel.Dave_G represented himself in this Have Your Say as Jewish, but this post shows a lack of knowledge of basic facts about Jews and a strong interest in Palestinian affairts from a pro-Hamas, anti-Fatah point of view. So it seems to me the chances are greater of Dave_G being Palestinian than Jewish."--------------------------------Can't beat a bit of ad hominem smearing on a forum which disallows private info from being posted, which means that I am unable to rebut your smears with facts. Very clever, but pretty slimy, to be honest. Wed 23 Jun 2010 16:23:41 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=94#comment1560 1551. At 2:00pm on 23 Jun 2010, Stella di Davide wrote:"Dave_G Wrote:Speak for Zionists, if you must, but don't claim to speak for Jews, because your views are not shared by all Jews.----------------------------I've been reading some of your previous comments with interest Dave. I thought you didn't buy into the 'Jew as a victim' ideology? Strange then when I voice the same opinion you distance yourself from the idea."------------------------------------------------It's not a straight choice between "victim" and "oppressor", IMO, as there are shades of opinion inbetween those two extremes. Wed 23 Jun 2010 16:14:24 GMT+1 Dave__G http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=94#comment1559 1556. At 3:58pm on 23 Jun 2010, herecomesthemirrorman wrote:"Most Jews don't have those alternative choices. Many Jews that live in Israel and abroad are not responsible for and are totally against the idea of stealing land, oppressing people and killing people in retaliation. They're just normal Jews who want to get on with their lives, like you and I. Should they be made to feel like they should be dead and pitied, or vilified and alive just because they happen to be Jewish and/or Israeli?"----------------------------------I suppose Israelis are as much to blame for the actions of their government as the people of Gaza are to blame for their government's actions. They both elected pretty extreme governments. Wed 23 Jun 2010 16:08:08 GMT+1 Planet Police http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=94#comment1558 If Israel really seeks peace in the region, it should work a bit harder to find this peaceful solution, because there is one. There is always a solution to a problem because there is always more than one option in any settlement deal. If Israel is sincere in finding peace it will find it. It is a democracy, it is a successful economy, it is a leader in research and technology in fields as diverse as arts to science. What does it take to provide education and marketing skills to the problem? Treat it like a commercial deal where all stakeholders benefit. Make use of the billions of aid from America by investing in the future of all the people in the region. Not only does it secure peace today but also for the future. When people are employed and living normal lifestyles, the only ones who make trouble are criminals, and they will be easily identified. Wed 23 Jun 2010 15:44:00 GMT+1 Planet Police http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=94#comment1557 Also religion plays such a key role in these changes so much that the religious leaders need to be on side. Don’t worry too much about using the local scholar...the Western educated PhD graduate with the English clipped accent, or American Ivy League twang – no not them, they do not have the respect of the masses. (Who cannot understand them anyway) The people who command the respect are the noisy clerics. If they can promote violent agitation, they can promote peace. If they are truly the workers of G-d, then they will welcome such approach. Wed 23 Jun 2010 15:41:05 GMT+1 Planet Police http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=94#comment1556 Alex, thanks for enlightenment. That being the case, should Israel not look to assist the people who are disenfranchised and marginalised to see beyond their myopic beliefs and to confirm to them the prosperity in the land if peace is achieved. From what I can see, there are certain peoples who are not so accepting of democracy as we know it to be. Some people are quite happy to be led by a father figure and to be revered as a deliverer of all things great. Cultural relativism, as opposed to universalism that you and I advocate, is a dominant feature in those societies. Looking at Arab states, the majority appear content to follow an autocratic leadership. They do not conform to universal ideals because it is not them, it doesn’t suit them and it is foreign to them. As we can see, there are many Arab states run by fascist leadership. This is also the case in Asia and Africa so it is not picking on the Arab leadership. WE may think it ironic that masses can be controlled by a few, but truth be known, it is probably the only way law and order will prevail in those states. I won’t refer obvious examples. Wed 23 Jun 2010 15:37:43 GMT+1 herecomesthemirrorman http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=94#comment1555 1552. At 2:11pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1549. At 1:47pm on 23 Jun 2010, herecomesthemirrorman wrote:"1546. At 1:11pm on 23 Jun 2010, Dave__G wrote:1540. At 12:43pm on 23 Jun 2010, Jewlicous wrote:After 2000 years of cowering in ghettos, Jews have finally had enough. We have decided it's better to be vilified and alive than be dead and pitied.-----------------------------Speak for Zionists, if you must, but don't claim to speak for Jews, because your views are not shared by all Jews.--------What sort of Jew would prefer to be dead and pitied?"---------------------------------Some Jews think that it might not just be a straight choice between being either dead and pitied, or vilified and alive.There are alternative choices, like not stealing land, not oppressing people and not killing 1,300 people in response to three dead Israelis.---------------------------------Most Jews don't have those alternative choices. Many Jews that live in Israel and abroad are not responsible for and are totally against the idea of stealing land, oppressing people and killing people in retaliation. They're just normal Jews who want to get on with their lives, like you and I. Should they be made to feel like they should be dead and pitied, or vilified and alive just because they happen to be Jewish and/or Israeli? Wed 23 Jun 2010 14:58:36 GMT+1 in_the_uk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/06/israel_eases_gaza_blockade_wha.html?page=93#comment1554 Aint we all glad we have all these peace and love religions to keep everyone happy and stop the killing. Wed 23 Jun 2010 14:42:03 GMT+1