Comments for http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html en-gb 30 Wed 17 Sep 2014 11:00:03 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html Steve Major http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=99#comment1081 My Mother is Polish,my father is Hungarian,and I am an American citizen currently working in Hungary on assignment. All my life I was deeply interested in History,and I am fully aware of Communist Russia's crimes against humanity in general, and against Poland and all other central European countries in particular. Between 1917 and 1970, the communist party of Russia have issued orders to exterminate over 70 million workers,farmers,men,women,children alike. Knowing this fact, it would not surprise me in the least if the Russian government issued its orders to the FSB ( formerly known as KGB ) to arrange this convenient " accident " to eliminate the entire Polish elite, because none of the Polish leaders looked favorably upon Russia,due Russian crimes againstthe Polish nation.There should be an international investigation committee to check out what has really happened. Wed 21 Apr 2010 05:42:55 GMT+1 Roman http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=99#comment1080 how long does it take to get a post posted? I sent one 10 hours ago and still no sign?!? Thu 15 Apr 2010 23:00:07 GMT+1 basiek http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=99#comment1079 "To weep is to make less the depth of grief."— William ShakespeareI'm weeping with You my Poland.. Thu 15 Apr 2010 19:26:27 GMT+1 Vlad17 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=99#comment1078 1076. At 7:13pm on 15 Apr 2010, rogvolod wrote:There's a name for it, it is called Empire, just like British, Prussian, Austrian and Russian and Japanese Empires.There's a name for it, it is called "an intervention in other state's internal affairs". I'm sure you remember the 17-th century polish intervention inside Russia. Polish occupants assaulted Smolensk, killing citizens of course. I wonder what values pollaks shared those days? probably western? correct me if i am wrong.do not intervene! mind your own tiny bussinnes.polish will ends on polska border.-------------------------------------------We said all we wanted to say. Look for example comments from me, LanaNorway and Rasputin.Enough wars. it is 2010.To whom who do not understand and want war - we say - "if you come to us with a sword, you will die from a sword"But let's better raise our children so they never know what is WAR. Thu 15 Apr 2010 19:23:53 GMT+1 Vlad17 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=99#comment1077 1075. At 7:00pm on 15 Apr 2010, basiek wrote:"To weep is to make less the depth of grief."— William ShakespeareI'm weeping with you my Poland..--------------------------------------------Keep faith and never cry. Be strong.Wladimir from Russia Thu 15 Apr 2010 19:07:05 GMT+1 brideofchucky http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=99#comment1076 Deepest Sympathy to all the Polish People. This is an unbelievable tragedy. The Polish people are strong and resilient, they will pull together as alway's, and continue to be a great Country. Thu 15 Apr 2010 18:18:41 GMT+1 rogvolod http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=99#comment1075 There's a name for it, it is called Empire, just like British, Prussian, Austrian and Russian and Japanese Empires.There's a name for it, it is called "an intervention in other state's internal affairs". I'm sure you remember the 17-th century polish intervention inside Russia. Polish occupants assaulted Smolensk, killing citizens of course. I wonder what values pollaks shared those days? probably western? correct me if i am wrong.do not intervene! mind your own tiny bussinnes.polish will ends on polska border. Thu 15 Apr 2010 18:13:22 GMT+1 basiek http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=99#comment1074 "To weep is to make less the depth of grief."— William ShakespeareI'm weeping with you my Poland.. Thu 15 Apr 2010 18:00:59 GMT+1 Vlad17 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=99#comment1073 1072. At 5:26pm on 15 Apr 2010, heartofmalvina wrote:Waldemar, you say many times "We are the west, we have a western mentality, and western values.--------------------------------------------Dear honey, believe me there are values in the West. But some people manipulate western values. I do not know why.. We are not enemies with the West. I do not know where you are from but thank you for your RIGHT thinking from my point of view.Let's see what people will say with regard to a sadist Stephan Bandera. I am ashaimed that I am Ukranian, however from Eastern Ukraine. See my comments above. Thu 15 Apr 2010 16:57:23 GMT+1 rogvolod http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=99#comment1072 In fall of 2008 when Russia invaded Georgia, Polish president Kaczynski together with presidents of Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Estonia went to Tbilisi and saved Georgian presidentAsk yourself a question "why even pres of US who odered this slaughter, UK, Germany and other sense countries did stay out of this circus? cause Georgian president is a laghing stock and word leaders do not want to encounter him and shake his bloody hand. only bunch of clowns could do this. and they rightfully deserved world's contempt. Thu 15 Apr 2010 16:45:47 GMT+1 rogvolod http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=98#comment1071 Waldemar, you say many times "We are the west, we have a western mentality, and western values." what are these so called values? to show support for one who did mass killings of innocents - is that your WESTERN value? STALIN, who odered pollaks killings, was georgian himself. go ahead and show him support. you and him share the same western value. you so in love with georgians. like one said "you are the georgians" Thu 15 Apr 2010 16:26:46 GMT+1 Vlad17 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=98#comment1070 1066. At 11:55am on 15 Apr 2010, Waldemar wrote:heartofmalvina wrote:" Russia is a multinational and multicultural state. Every nation has its representative in state's Duma In Russia many nations live in mutial understanding and cooperation."There's a name for it, it is called Empire, just like British, Prussian, Austrian and Russian and Japanese Empires. Ask Chinese, Koreans and Philipinos how they enjoyed being part of Japanese Empire, and why did they saved itself from Japan.------------------------------------------------Waldemar, I've got a question for you. What do you think of Stephan Bandera who recently was made a Hero of Ukraine by Mr.Yushenko? I tried to express my negative view about him and about a massacre of 120 000 Poles in West Ukraine by ukranian liberation army in 1943 with details, but I feel BBC didn't believe it so terrifying it was. Thu 15 Apr 2010 15:32:01 GMT+1 Vlad17 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=98#comment1069 This post has been Removed Thu 15 Apr 2010 15:13:45 GMT+1 Don Williamson http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=98#comment1068 Was this an accident?... ...If it was it's a terrible tragedy. Thu 15 Apr 2010 14:29:10 GMT+1 Roman http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=98#comment1067 I follow many conspiracy theories and many (eg 911) have great creedance - however the Idea that Russia is behind this makes no sense.1) President Kaczyński may not have been a friend of Putin but was unintentionally siding with him by helping to ostrasize Poland from the EC (attitudes towards homosexuality, remarks to Angela Merkal about WWII, delaying in signing the Lisbon treaty (kudos on that)2) How could Russia make sure that ALL the top officelas would travel on ONE old Soviet Plane to a fog bound airport with almost no landing facilities. Putin (for weeks before) was trying to stop Kaczyński going!3) This is not the curse of Katyn this is the curse of Egos coupled with a wrecklessness to safety that is way of life in Poland (and many Eastern block countries). I know - I have to drive on their pot holed roads keeping a safe speed whilst I am overtaken on both sides by crazy drivers.4) THe Russians even advised the Pilot NOT TO LAND THERE. So you have to ask a very important question (not raised on Polish TV). Why did 4 pilots ignore the advice and make 3 attmepts to Land and eventually crash so far from the runway that it was obvious they had no idea where they were... and when we get that answer will there be even more adverse reaction to the final resting place of the president?I also think Polish pilots should speak out as their good name is now tarnished. I would like to hear what the Pilot's widow has to say. Thu 15 Apr 2010 14:02:08 GMT+1 sean56z http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=98#comment1066 This post has been Removed Thu 15 Apr 2010 11:31:03 GMT+1 Waldemar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=98#comment1065 heartofmalvina wrote:" Russia is a multinational and multicultural state. Every nation has its representative in state's Duma In Russia many nations live in mutial understanding and cooperation."There's a name for it, it is called Empire, just like British, Prussian, Austrian and Russian and Japanese Empires. Ask Chinese, Koreans and Philipinos how they enjoyed being part of Japanese Empire, and why did they saved itself from Japan.Ask Irish, Americans, Canadians, Australians, India, Pakistan and African Countries why they did not wished to be part of multicultural British Empire... Because it was not for protection, Britain has explaited those countries, just like Russian Empire, Soviet Union and now Russian Federation is exploiting and brutally occupying Tatarstan, Tashkient, Yakutia, Kamczatka, and many other nations.There's no place for empires in modern world, nations brutally occupied today by Russia will free itself in the near future. Thu 15 Apr 2010 10:55:37 GMT+1 Waldemar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=98#comment1064 heartofmalvina wrote:"Russia will not save you from occupation next time, remember that !!! this time on your own please."---Thank God! Russian "saving" Poland from the west, is as if the fisherman pulled out fish out of water, claiming that he wated to save.Poland was, is, and will always be a western country. We are the west, we have a western mentality, and western liberitarian values.Please you Russians do not "save us" anymore. We do not want your tyrany anymore. Go rule your trees in Tundra and frozen land of Syberia. Europe doesn't deed autoritarian Russia. But the way you Russians have learned this autoritarian values from Mongols and Tatars, you totaly do not belong in Europe but steppes of Asia. Thu 15 Apr 2010 10:38:10 GMT+1 Waldemar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=98#comment1063 heartofmalvina wrote:"re # 1060you r totally brainwashed. shame on you for your words. Russia will not save you from occupation next time, remember that !!! this time on your own please."---Don't all extortionists, mafia and bullies, charge its victims for so called "protection"?...That is how Russia "protects" its neigbours by invading it and imposing its will and rule over smaller countries.Russia acts like a common criminal who attacks its victims, steals, and claims that victim needed it, that his victim somhow benefited...Wharped mentality, sick and brainwashed Russians. Out of all Poland's past enemies, it was Russia who invaded and was distroying Poland the most times. It is a common joke, that letting Russia into the NATO and EU would be like letting vampire into the blood bank.In fall of 2008 when Russia invaded Georgia, Polish president Kaczynski together with presidents of Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine, Estonia went to Tbilisi and saved Georgia and Georgian president from being captured by Russian special forces on Putin's orders to overthrow inconvenient president of Georgia.You Russkies stay home, you can protect your trees in Tundra and a frozen land of Syberia. Poland, Baltics, Ukraine and Caucasus countries will defend and protect itself from Russian invasion.Long live the free, democratic, civilised world.Long live free Poland. Thu 15 Apr 2010 10:24:01 GMT+1 rogvolod http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=98#comment1062 re # 1060you r totally brainwashed. shame on you for your words. Russia will not save you from occupation next time, remember that !!! this time on your own please. Thu 15 Apr 2010 05:52:08 GMT+1 rogvolod http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=98#comment1061 re #1058 "And who will protect Tatars from the Russia?" - Tatars are part of Russia and do not need such a protection."Believe me no nation wants to be rule by other nation. "no one rule no one. Russia is a multinational and multicultural state. Every nation has its representative in state's Duma In Russia many nations live in mutial understanding and cooperation. Compare it to mononational Poland where minorities has no rights at all and ruled only by pollaks"Why is Georgians so afraid of your so called "protection"Georgian puppet government(ruled from Wash) did mass killings of ossetians and that is why is afraid. do not committe any genocide and do not be afraid, my dear nationalist.If you wanna be a good partner - be it. but don't wage war against Russia. be neutral, be polite with other nations, learn from Russia. Thu 15 Apr 2010 05:39:37 GMT+1 biba http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=97#comment1060 Someday everyone will know the truth, we will all find it when we pass on to heaven. In order to go to heaven, we all must know what is right so that we can make it there. The information that we receieve in life is veiled by the media and propaganda frenzy. It is with this misguided information that we form our opinions and alter our moral ethics. Politicians die just like everyone of us, along with people that work for media networks. So tell me, where are they going? Thu 15 Apr 2010 03:45:51 GMT+1 Waldemar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=97#comment1059 heartofmalvina wrote:"for your consideration: Soviet Russia had liberated Poland from Nazi rule at a cost of 600 000 thousands lifes of soviet citizens. Shame on you, Waldemar, for your distorted views."---for your information Heartofmalvina; Soviet Russia together with its ally Nazi Germany in 1939 invaded Poland, and distroyed it, murdered many polish citizen who were oposing Russian invadors. Russia did not save anyone, Russian wanted to rule Poland after WWII, and for that reason Russian secret police NKVD have executed Polish leadership. All the information you Russians were tought since 1945 untill now was a lie and a Soviet propaganda, today still Russians lie. Russia was and still is a brutal occupier. Can you Russians learn once and for all that noone needs your occupation. Please stay home! Wed 14 Apr 2010 21:46:12 GMT+1 ula http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=97#comment1058 There seems to be many speculations about the crash. My advice is to wait until the boxes will reveal the causes of the unfortunate landing.Although, if you are (as my colleagues are )of the opinion that not everything will ever be revealed as wasn't with the Massacre, without which the accident wouldn't have happened (because nobody would have had to go there on 10 April) then you are probably aware of the media ruling the world nowadays and showing what the politicians want us to show.That is to say, the media have created such Presidential "isolation" blaming him for what now is taken as patriotism, that the current respect (also in the media coverage)and funeral was thought probably as a reward for such behaviour from his opponents. Personally, I take the signs of casual people from Russia showing their feelings more honest and trustworthy than of those who rule them.We have the history at the back of our heads and cannot supress the impression of the huge symbolism of this what had happened.History also shows that the western countries were united in claiming their alliance. We will see how much of this will stand the trial of the time that is still ahead of us. Wed 14 Apr 2010 21:42:36 GMT+1 Waldemar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=97#comment1057 heartofmalvina wrote;"Cause Tatars find it very convenient to be ruled from Moscow and not from Warsaw. Tatars are great nation. they fought together with russians against Nazi. they never betrayed Russia. Common history unites tatars and russians. Tatars know that Russia will protect them from any insane leader coming from the west(Karl II, Buonaparte, Hitler)"And who will protect Tatars from the Russia? You say you "protect" Tatarstan from the "insane leader comming from the west"And how about invasion comming form the east? Russian invasion. Believe me no nation wants to be rule by other nation. Let me ask you a gueston! Are you Russians in 1300's wanted to be ruled by Tatars? No. Do you Russians want to be ruled or "protected" by China, and be part of any foreign country?Why is Georgians so afraid of your so called "protection"?Because it is not a protection, it is a brutal rule, squashing the discent and Russian desire to rule all its neigbours.Russia dislikes Poland because Poland is a voice of freedom, Poland was, and today still is a western nation with a western mentality, believes in the freedom. Of course Russia ruled poland in the past, and therefore we are more afraid from the invasion from the East, from Russian repeted invasions.We Poles are not afraid of the west, because we are the West, we always been. I understand that the Russian imperialistic desires can not be alive without slaves and vasals, so called sphere of influence. But this is Russian problem, world does not need a Russian empire, world does not need a Russian leader. World needs Russia as a normal country that is a partner for its neigbours.The autoritarian mentality of Russia will never work with the liberitarian mentality of Europe. In the end Russia suppouse to realise that its western neigbours; Baltic states, Ukraine, Poland are the western societies and they will always be indepentent, and it is not their duty to do whatever Russia will is. Polands role is to care for its own interest, and to live its way of life, and Poles are the part of the liberitarian west, not....autoritarian Russia or other central/eastern Asian states.Please live Poland alone, it is not important that Poland is Russian neigbour, South Korea, Japan is also a Russian neigbour but noone is critisizing those countries that they choose to be US partner.Please live Poland and Eastern Europe alone. Your Russian will ends on Russian border. Please worry about your trees of Tundra, and control your frozen Syberia, but forget about central and eastern Europe. We do not need your interference, we Poles, Balts, Ukrainains, Georgians and others can be partners for you like Germany, UK or France is your partner, but never a vasals again.Learn to be a normal country. Wed 14 Apr 2010 21:39:41 GMT+1 rogvolod http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=97#comment1056 re #1051for your consideration: Soviet Russia had liberated Poland from Nazi rule at a cost of 600 000 thousands lifes of soviet citizens. Shame on you, Waldemar, for your distorted views. Wed 14 Apr 2010 21:36:15 GMT+1 rogvolod http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=97#comment1055 re #1052"If you "do not want any single piece of land of any nation", why is Tatar nation ruled from Moscow and part of Russia?"Cause Tatars find it very convenient to be ruled from Moscow and not from Warsaw.Tatars are great nation. they fought together with russians against Nazi. they never betrayed Russia. Common history unites tatars and russians. Tatars know that Russia will protect them from any insane leader coming from the west(Karl II, Buonaparte, Hitler) Wed 14 Apr 2010 21:14:55 GMT+1 Waldemar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=97#comment1054 Nicomo wrote:"My only worry is that now instead of focusing on Poland's recent tragedy, the eyes of the world will look at Russia in dismay after seeing the film 'Katyn', just at the very time Russia is trying to make amends. This is a time for Poland to put back feelings of distrust and move forward for the a new generation of co-operation, reconciliation and peace. I am sure that this would be Poland's wisest move, I only hope that they are able to seize this historic opportunity."---Your worry is my and other Poles and hope.. Why are you afraid that the world is going to find out the shocking truth about Russian crimes? Of course, the truth came out after collapse of Soviet Union in 1989/90, but the world untill now was sceptical. You think that Russia has changed? But it has not, it is still autoritarian and still brutally crushing discent and squashes the voice of free democratic organisation in Russia. Why are independent Russian reporters dying in recent years and still today? Why is Russia occupying Georgia, Osetia and why is Russia using its rich oil resources in politics and trying to use it to recover its former sphere of influence?World untill now chose to keep up the status quo, and swip the brutal truth abour Russian crimes under the carpet, in the efforts to pacify Russia, and to be "pragmatic" thus putting the ideals of democracy, behind the economic advantages of cooperating with autoritarian Russia.You critisise Poland for reacting to Russian attitude and bulying. Why you do not critisize Russia for its crimes against Poland and Eastern Europe? Do you believe that Russia is too large and powerfull to be critisized? Or maybe is it your socialist feelings, as an Italian socialist sympathiser, you are unable and unwilling to support rightis Poland and its role in overthrowing socialsit rule of Soviet Russia in Eastern Europe.In Poland we call Italian, Spanish and other latin countries attitide the "romantic communist" you never experienced the cruelty of communistm, so you keep dreaming on. Wed 14 Apr 2010 21:00:18 GMT+1 rogvolod http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=97#comment1053 re #1045 "Just like Col Alex Litvinenko poisoned himself in London with polonium-210 (from a close city of Sarov) just give Mr. Putin a bad name?"I guess you know better than me who poisoned a colonel. BAB did. why? Ask him. probally it is the price you pay when have bussiness with Berezovsky. Wed 14 Apr 2010 20:58:11 GMT+1 Nicomo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=97#comment1052 My only worry is that now instead of focusing on Poland's recent tragedy, the eyes of the world will look at Russia in dismay after seeing the film 'Katyn', just at the very time Russia is trying to make amends. This is a time for Poland to put back feelings of distrust and move forward for the a new generation of co-operation, reconciliation and peace. I am sure that this would be Poland's wisest move, I only hope that they are able to seize this historic opportunity. Wed 14 Apr 2010 20:40:07 GMT+1 Waldemar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=97#comment1051 Vlad17 worte;"BTW, Tatars.. this is a muslim well respected nation in Russia and always was. Go to Kazan City - their capital now and say what you said. Tatars will lough at you.(...) We Russians do not want a single piece of your land." ----If you "do not want any single piece of land of any nation", why is Tatar nation ruled from Moscow and part of Russia? You Russians when you were weaker in the medieval times fought invading Tatarstan, you fought for freedom, and you Russians did NOT wanted to be rulled by Tatars. But now you occupy Tatarstan and rule Tatars... Ironic isn't it?Please forget for once that Russia is a huge country and stop thinking that you have more rights then others. Russia is independent country, not a part of China, and Russia suppouse to be free as it is. But Tatarstan, Yakutia, Kamczatkans, Tashkents, and Asian syberian people should be free, should like in free Tatarstan, Yakutia, Kamczatka and Tashkent country, NOT in Russia.Russians go home! Wed 14 Apr 2010 20:08:39 GMT+1 Waldemar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=97#comment1050 Vlad17 wrote;"We Russians do not want a single piece of your land. Please let us heel our own wounds after events of 90th. And - we look forward to cooperation with US, UK, Germany and all our friends to make future better and safer. Please do me a favour, do not speak for all Poles whilst enjoing good life in US. For all our Polish friends a sincere symphaty from Russia." ----That is very typical of Russian person; speaking not only for all Russians and Poles but the whole world. Very arrogant attitude, of autoritarian mentality, thinking that Russians know better an can decide for others.Besides you mentioned that Russia will cooperate with world powers like Germany etc. I know how your Russian "cooperation" works, we saw it in 1939 when Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany together invaded Poland, because that was convenient for thir interest. Is this what the "brotherly Slav nation" does to other slav nation? You Russians not only betrayed your slavic brothers Poles, but also sold it to Germans, and together with Germans murdered off other slavs, shame on you Russia!You say that Russia will cooperate with US, UK, Germany "to make world better", the way you cooperated during cold war, when the world was split into American and Soviet Russian spheres? You should notice that besides US, UK and Germany, there's also Poland, Ukraine, Baltic states and you should cooperate with them and learn to treat them as a foreign states, and partners, not....like former satelites.Poland, Baltics, Ukraine and Caucasus countries do not need a leader, those countries need a partner. Learn to be partner Russia, and the world will be a better place. We do not need the world with different camps lead by powers, we need countries cooperating with each other freely, without world powers sych as Russia deciding for Poland what she can, can not or should or shouldn't do.Russian will ends on Russian border. Wed 14 Apr 2010 19:57:19 GMT+1 SilviaJey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=96#comment1049 I'm from Poland. It is another stab. The first stab was seventy years old when killed a few thousands intelligent people, now died ninety-six people . They were also wonderful and clever!!!!!!!! It's not fair!! [*] Wed 14 Apr 2010 19:02:10 GMT+1 KINGA http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=96#comment1048 Yes we have a split in Poland and we know the author - Jaroslaw Kaczynski... And I am afraid what will he do in the future? Haw will he use his brother death? Wed 14 Apr 2010 18:32:54 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=96#comment1047 From the Daily Mail: Controller Pavel Plyusnin confirmed the understanding was '50-50' as the plane approached its tragic end. 'It was hard to guess here if the pilot understood us properly,' said Col Muraviev. 'The language barrier did not help of course. I think it could have affected the result of this flight along with other circumstances.'The Polish air force yesterday defended father-of-two Captain Protasiuk, saying he 'often flew with the president and other VIPs'.A spokesman said it was 'ruled out' that the president could have forced the pilot to land at Smolensk. Wed 14 Apr 2010 18:31:32 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=96#comment1046 P.S. Both, president Obama and president Medvedev will be present at pres. Kaczynski's funeral at Wawel Castle's Catehdral.So will UK's prince Charles. Wed 14 Apr 2010 17:02:53 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=96#comment1045 "We are a northern cold country. Fogs occur often. Weather if often inclement.That's why there should be a clear regulation: the ground control,not the pilots, shold determine whether a ladning is possible or not. (Zhrinovski, a Deputy Speaker of Russian Duma)P.S. B Wed 14 Apr 2010 16:57:24 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=96#comment1044 Re #1022"Ukrainian president poisoned himself in order to win some more ballots during the election campaigne"Just like Col Alex Litvinenko poisoned himself in London with polonium-210 (from a close city of Sarov) just give Mr. Putin a bad name?A question:Why at the time so many ordinary Russians seek a genuine reconciliation with Poles, are you provoking a confrontation?Are you, by any chance, a member of Lubyanka Web Brigade? Wed 14 Apr 2010 14:19:45 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=96#comment1043 Re "This will not bring any reconciliation with Russia. Russia will not open documents about Katyn, will not confess responsibility for massacre. Poland is suddenly weakened politically, I think there are no firm leaders inside the country who can firmly stand up and raise voice against Russia, as Kaczynski did. "Ad 1 The issue ouright now is not about admitting the mass crime, as accepting responsibility. which would entail punishing NKVD aparatchicks still alive and paying a compensation to the victims' families.The first has already occured; the second is rather unlikely. Ad 2The former(?) Polish Coomunists and socialists are already objecting to Lech Kaczynski's burial at Wawel castle alongside Polish kings and other heroes.No surprise here. Wed 14 Apr 2010 13:58:08 GMT+1 Lenka http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=96#comment1042 Condolences to Polish Nation, it is a tragedy, but I do not believe in accidents as far as politics is concerned-sorry Wed 14 Apr 2010 13:02:04 GMT+1 kazek http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=96#comment1041 I am very proud of my nation. I come from Poland and this situation is very unconfortable for all Polish people. Close Katyn have occured a huge tragegy and we have lost there a lot of very clever inhabitants of our country and in the future we should find their substitutes. This time for most people in my coutry is very important. I would like to tank for all citizens from others coutries who strongly support us. It is very significat for the Polih people. This time we need help which culd be focused on your supported comments and paying tribute in the memotial books. Thanks a lot .... Wed 14 Apr 2010 11:18:15 GMT+1 Tibor http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=96#comment1040 989. At 12:06pm on 13 Apr 2010, Waldemar wrote:Ivan Veller wrote:"Regardless as to whether President Kaczynski was actually murdered, his death will likely be perceived by some in neighboring nations as an unambiguously clear warning to any former satellite state's willingness to consider NATO missile defense shield protection. Moreover, the inauspicious timing of this incident, its coinciding with the anniversary of the Katyn massacre, might furthermore be mis/interpreted as a clear signal that the political, military, and economic leadership of nations recalcitrant against Russian hegemony might likewise be eliminated en masse, with no regard to diplomatic immunity or to international convention."I regret that the state of mind of some could be so alarming as the one demonstrated above. Wed 14 Apr 2010 08:54:07 GMT+1 Rasputin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=96#comment1039 989. At 12:06pm on 13 Apr 2010, Waldemar wrote:Ivan Veller wrote:"Regardless as to whether President Kaczynski was actually murdered, his death will likely be perceived by some in neighboring nations as an unambiguously clear warning to any former satellite state's willingness to consider NATO missile defense shield protection. Moreover, the inauspicious timing of this incident, its coinciding with the anniversary of the Katyn massacre, might furthermore be mis/interpreted as a clear signal that the political, military, and economic leadership of nations recalcitrant against Russian hegemony might likewise be eliminated en masse, with no regard to diplomatic immunity or to international convention."I take your "signal" and throw it down the toilet, so do all the Polish people and all the Eastern and Central Europeans. Secondly you Russians can "hegemonize" but only the trees of Tundra or frozen land in Siberia. The year is 2010, not 1980 the Stalin Soviet Union and Hitlers Nazi IIIrd Reich are both delegated to the dumping site of history. While Germany has democratised, Russia still struggles after loosing its former role of totalitarian state.Besides Russia belongs more to Asia, than Europe. Europe is the community of a democratic free states. Russia is and autoritarian state and together with's its style of governance and mentality of its people belongs to the Central and Eastern Asian countries.========================================================Daaamn smaaart Russians, haven’t ya heard the braking news lately my Polish friend the Eastern Asians are seemingly taking over the world and You act pretty loyal to your new US masters but obviously have chosen the wrong camp.Mentality?Lets talk about mentalities than:Throughout history the Balkans, as a cross rode, have experienced probably the most in Europe of diverse mentalities. YES the Crusade came in their shiny knights´ armours to Christianize us in the name of God …and our fighters pulled them down from the horses in no time on the ground and the poor pompous clowns couldn’t even lift up on their feet …laughter erupted and they were told to go back and tell the Pope WE are Christians looong ago, well NOT Catholics BUT still Christians, so NO need waste his time sending his armies of brankaleone “Christianize” us. LoooolThan came the Ottomans to Muslimize us with the same trick BUT this time in the name of Allah Ballah ...they refer to as their God as well. The thing was the Serbian bro´s arrived too late …and was impossible to stop 100 million nation with its army versus 10 million nation or less at the time …and not that they were better fighters than us but way outnumbered us. However, WE DID NOT surrendered as cowards but has been an exhausting battles to the last bullet to the last breath.Right before their soldiers being sent to the battle their priests giving them a glass full of brandy commanded them “Go and fight the gjaurs [the infidels - but we had our religion and God, right?] in the name of Allah.” Notice please; in the Koran IS forbidden to drink …is WHY I say “Allah Ballah”There are many stories when no provisions to fight or food left the father refuses to surrender in slavery would slit the throats of the children and his wife and than his own.After the fall those “noble” Ottomans would collect healthy baby boys of ours and take them in their province called ´Diyarbakir´ train them as a killing machines [inichars] and than as grown strong soldiers bring them back to kill their own siblings.Throughout the 500 long years oppression, although the enormous pressure to wipe out our cultural heritage libraries were hidden behind walls in monasteries and clusters …WE DID NOT lost our identity, although some (small percentage) converted into their religion. And after 500 looong years our RUSSIAN Brothers came …we fought with them shoulder to shoulder with endless energy and unseen bravery to push the Ottomans back and regain our freedom. How can WE EVER forget THAT …How CAN WE EVER repay them!In sign of gratitude in every town there are at least several streets and/or boulevards named after the Russian generals commemorating our freedom, and so are many monuments.But before that period, countless of wars from time began, generations being born and grown in wars. The town I grew up seven times levelled to the ground and rebuild again with a new name.Oh YES, WE know war! And YES, WE learned and therefore CONDEMN WAR!BUT IF we are being attacked WE also know how to stand up for ourselves. Westerners YOU are playing very dangerous games on our soils. The Orthodox are patient on provocations but once they fire up they do the job to the very end. And just because they never adopted colonialism DO NOT underestimate them.Catholic mentality:Since the time of the crusades and the famous Spanish Inquisition they have been seeking for Europe’s and world’s domination. Even recently, seemingly, everywhere they are tensions are inevitable. Ireland, Poland, Croatia, etc., all over the world …and let alone the sex appalling scandals.And it seems Waldemar the problem in Europe are not the Orthodox and the Lutherans BUT the Catholics overall.Ah YES, as the song goes “…first we take Berlin and than we take Manhattan” or in your dreams of new hierarchy of “free & democratic” Europe perhaps “…Europe Unite, first we kick out the Russians beyond Ural thus they don’t belong to Europe, and than we DO the damn Germans too (where to …well we think about it later but first lets do the job by the model of the BIG BRO) …aand fiiinillyyy we outsmart the clever Brits and with backing of the BIG BRO over the pond WE Rule Europe” Horey Horey Hoooreeeyyy!Nice dreams Waldemar …keep on dreamiiing ;)Brought me back the picture of Charlie Chaplin caricaturising Adolfo in the film how he throws the globe from one arm high in the air to another “I am the Ruler of The World.”And the way you act it looks like the Germans, after all, have had their reasons for a special treatment towards YOU the Polish Catholics and the other very special self-proclaimed special spices in human images - the Jews …speaking of “mentalities” that is.Everybody knew the late Pope was chosen from Poland as an instrument against the Soviets. All of the Bulgarians knew the fabricated case of the major Antonov falsely accused of attempt to assassin the Pope and clumsily wrapped up with another suspect, a Turkish guy, in between which there was no evident connection …but with one built we shoot two rabbits eyy. Antonov was subsequently injected into the Italian jail and lost his abilities remembering and practically, after failing attempts prove him guilty, was returned as a living vegetable with a wasted brain.BUT the personal secretary of the Pope after 20 years of the event had revealed that the attempt the Pope be assassin via poison has been done in our dear Catholic Portugal. Of course, that shouldn’t have been revealed in the open but to attack and demonise the Soviets and the Muslims, correct?It seems that the Catholics and the Jews are pretty much experienced in those espionage schemes from which most probably the CIA has learned a great deal.And YES, Vlad [from Russia] is absolutely correct in stating the Catholics have pretty dirty deeds to bare the shame of [in case they are aware of such human emotion] concerning Ukraine, Belarus, Russia and even the Balkans alike.My point is:The two major religions, Catholics and Muslims, have brought the most sufferings on planet earth ever since established as such. And no matter how secular we may claim to be they still have very huge influence around the world, likewise our cultures and values are build upon the religions as in the past were the only source of knowledge acting as a social and moral mentors.Religion again has been used in very recent times in the Balkans and around Russia, just as is being used in the ME and else where possible …the west saw them [the muslim minorities] vulnerable for manipulation and corruption and exploited them to the utmost using them against the Orthodox communities in order achieve their nasty goals. Likewise in the 90´ in Bulgaria on the front page newspaper 24 Hours was a huge article posted with the map of the country divided into five regions where CIA has been paying cash money to the minorities in order create social unrest alike in Bosnia and Kosovo …the KGB literally moved there [Sofia] their headquarters to counter the CIA what they were doing on the Balkans, as was also done in Romania.Shortly after literally echelons of religious lunatics flooded all over those countries from the west, and finally Russia and Bulgaria got enough of their “religious” madness kicked them all out and left only the four main religious streams “…go sue us in Strasbourg, if you can find any ground whatsoever.” Game over for the religious comedians!But was it something new or wasn’t it the very same trick with the colonisation history as repetition …first the missionaries with the bibles and right after them the soldiers with the swords.Therefore I support China in keeping strict control of the free marches on; freedoms, religious manifestations, human rights foolish performances, internet, etc. Hence those so called “freedoms” have demoralised and destroyed our societies from within …because these “freedoms” bring huge profits for the smart tinkers puling the strings behind the scenes …and not that the legislators and judges are not aware of all this BUT ALL we care about IS the big profits …and the silver God IS the Only one we truly respect.IF the religious are to create hatred and wars is time for us mature and get rid of them!Again, throughout the this 500 years of Ottoman oppressing, to be objective, they did not destroyed our churches or religious shrines. While recently in Kosovo vandalised by the so-called KLA [Kosovo Liberation Army - what exactly do they liberate in others territories …one wonders], created and sponsored by the west, 126 churches and monasteries some of which older than 1000 years declared by the World’s Heritage Museum under its protection. That done in the presence of a two “peace keeping missions” by NATO and OSCE. Question IS they know well those are sacred places and they are not to be touched; WHO stands behind this and instructs them do this vandalism? Or could it be; we demolish all their sacred places and after 50 years or so they will have nothing to show and prove this is indeed Serbian territory?On the other hand, via google type Carla Del Ponte (the former ICTY Chief prosecutor on Milosevic case) and check herself releasing a book where mentioned suspected of 400 Serbian and of Slavic origin people have been removed their organs and than killed in Kosovo. Welcome to the real cannibalistic barbarian world!And we pray our Serbian brothers not to lose their nerve go down wipe out ALL of the comedians form there and head down to Albania ask them for accountability.But hey the “wise” vice president of USA Joe Biden [Mr God] went down there and told them “there is NO return back …Kosovo is liberated and is good for balance and the stability of the region.” My dear God …this man badly needs medical treatment. Therefore, the opposition in the Serbian parliament went on his appearing in Belgrade with T-shirts printed on “NAZI SCUM BIDEN GO HOME.!YES Waldemar the year is 2010 and look what things are still happening in the very heart of Europe thanks to your western “civilised” civilisation.And my personal advice to you my friend …be careful when you through stones at others, they might very easily bounce back straight on your head with double force. Wed 14 Apr 2010 06:46:25 GMT+1 k http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=95#comment1038 This post has been Removed Wed 14 Apr 2010 06:15:00 GMT+1 Karl Flavell http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=95#comment1037 What does it mean? Errr...they need a new president? Wed 14 Apr 2010 05:08:24 GMT+1 joe kahn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=95#comment1036 To No.999 SouthernmarineUsa:DId it ever occur to you that the U.S.with numerous bases in the region coupled with sophisticated weapons could have done this,to make the Russians look bad.Just a thought,some say i am a conspiracy theorist.But it is certainly possible isn't it? Wed 14 Apr 2010 03:52:19 GMT+1 Kasia http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=95#comment1035 ...it's shocking, tragic, surreal...I'm Polish but I've been living in U.S.A for quite some time (different places). Now I'm living in a little, picturesque town, in a rural area, work at a local hotel for the past few years and not one of my coworkers or managers uttered one word regarding this horrific event. It's been all over the media, and I'm the only Polish employee here and it simply revolts me. Day (days)like any other day.I feel very connected to my country and in moments of such emotional magnitude it's painful not to be able to grieve in unison. Tue 13 Apr 2010 23:32:04 GMT+1 MOSTAFA http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=95#comment1034 The man was really marvelous , loved by his people , and trying to do his best for the sake , welfare and prosperity of his people and nation. This appears obviously in his peoples' eye-tears. But i think they will come out of it and overcome their grief. His death may change the Russian-Polish relations into a better phase , and their may be more closeness between the two countries. I was really sad for his death , and my family too , because we felt how deeply his people love him.So we send our deepest condolesences to them and may they have a typically-mannered man after him. Tue 13 Apr 2010 22:53:59 GMT+1 Andrzej Jazdzewski http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=95#comment1033 Deepest shock and condolences is extended to all who are bereaved, from a first generation British Pole, born and brought up in the United Kingdom but whose heart and soul is linked to the homeland of my loving parents, my heart goes out to all who are feeling the pain at this sad time.Prayer to Our Lady KozielskOur Lady Kozelsk - Victorious! You will always lead us to true victory and resurrection.Therefore you confidently entrust everything that hurts us and fills us with fear, our past and future. We entrust to you themselves. We recommend you to Mary, all of our families, emigration, Poles scattered all over the world and living in the country. Lead us by faith and trust in God. You hear us please Mother. Amen. Tue 13 Apr 2010 22:29:08 GMT+1 Anna http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=95#comment1032 Southernmarine25 USA wrote:This smells fishy to me. First, the Soviets, after decades of blatantly denying that they had absolutely no involvement in what happened then all of the sudden say they did it near the anniversary? Subsequently, they then bring a huge delegation of some of the MOST powerful leaders of Poland on ONE plane Gorbachev admitted Stalin's crime in Katyn in the very beginning of perestroyka.Wasn't it Polish leaders' decision to bring a huge delegation of some of the MOST powerful leaders of Poland on ONE plane? Tue 13 Apr 2010 20:30:49 GMT+1 Brian Fieldhouse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=95#comment1031 At 7:45pm on 10 Apr 2010, Helga wrote:384. At 4:43pm on 10 Apr 2010, rob2010 wrote:Was Russia behind this outrage?Of cause, mate!They planted the trees, the fog was artificial and the most important fact is that the plane was russian made(who cares that it was volonterely used by Polish president)! The Russians also brainwashed or paid the pilot to land in dangerous conditions in spite of traffic controller warning, convinced the Polish elite to travel together and whatever else will come to some great minds thinking alike on this tragic day for all Poles...Well said, Helga. It´s about time someone told the conspiracy theorists to produce either produce their evidence or grow up and shut up. Tue 13 Apr 2010 20:25:22 GMT+1 Brian Fieldhouse http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=95#comment1030 "479. At 8:04pm on 10 Apr 2010, Alex wrote:I'm having hard time believing Russians had nothing to do with it."I´m having no problem at all. A pilot who has to abort three landings in thick fog, and still keeps trying despite explicit instructions from ground controllers to divert to another airport is behaving with criminal recklessness. On the flight deck, the pilot is absolute master. If he was under orders from his superiors on board, he should have ignored them. Are you saying that he was ordered by the Kremlin to commit suicide? Grow up. Tue 13 Apr 2010 20:21:17 GMT+1 Vlad17 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=95#comment1029 I don't think it will be published. But I very much would like to pass my greetings to Mr.Rasputin and say that we Russians are always with Bulgaria and all friends despite the fact that Bulgaria "officially" was a part of nazi block. To be honest I think that it is fanatical Catholicism the reason for instability in Europe. God bless British Queen Elizabeth 1 and british warriors who put an end to Catholic expansion in Europe in 1588. And she was right refusing an offer of marriage from our russian despot Ivan the Terrible. That's only my opinion. Tue 13 Apr 2010 20:16:44 GMT+1 jan http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=95#comment1028 As for that terrible tragedy, we Polish people were united as never before. I said „we were” because we are not any more. Thanks to a very stupid decision of cardinals of our Church and Mr. Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the brother of our late President. Today evening they announced that President Lech Kaczynski is to be buried in Krakow at Wawel. For those who don’t know what Wawel is I explain: it’s the place were our Kings, dozens of them, and only very, very great Polish heroes are buried. Mr Lech Kaczynski is not one of them. This decision, announced only few ours ago, has already triggered massive protests. And divided Poland more than in half. Great majority doesn’t want it. So the mourning is almost finished, tommorow we in Poland are going to start a terrible row and fight over a place were our president should be buried. Thanks to his greedy brother and our clergy. Watch what will be going on tomorrow in Poland. It may be quite interesting. Tue 13 Apr 2010 20:07:19 GMT+1 Monica http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=94#comment1027 First of all, thank you for the condolences. We, Poles appreciate the world's concern in this tragic moment. What I want to say is that most of us are now having a dispute about the place of burial of the late President and his Wife. Many people (me among them) are strongly against burying them on Wawel as it is a place for very special figures such as monarchs, kings and national heroes. Mr Kaczynski was none of them. The matter is now beginning to divide Poles and I feel ashamed again. There is a protest held at the Pope's window at 3 Franciszkanska Str.in Krakow. More and more people gather there and the rest is arguing on web forums. What I think is , that it was Lech Kaczynski's brother Jaroslav idea to make him "saint" after death and to use the situation for some political reasons. In fact, the effect is going to be quite the opposite. Most people tend to admit some privileges to Lech Kaczynski after the crash but now they are becoming more and more reluctant. A very bad thing happened because of pride and ego trip of Jaroslav. Tue 13 Apr 2010 19:27:57 GMT+1 OLGA http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=94#comment1026 Why isn't there my comment? Tue 13 Apr 2010 19:21:44 GMT+1 Vlad17 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=94#comment1025 981. At 11:00am on 13 Apr 2010, Rasputin wrote:...While true fact too, met some historians of theirs who shocked me with deep knowledge’s of the European and even our history...I had the same experince Mr.Rasputin. BTW West and East Christianity are basically the same except filioque and Pope's supremacy dogmat. Without offending enybody in these tragic days I can tell you that Orthodox Unity will revive in a good sense of this word. And then we will see what happens. Tue 13 Apr 2010 19:12:55 GMT+1 Alexandereski http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=94#comment1024 1013. At 6:06pm on 13 Apr 2010, Alicja wrote:"The journalists weren't allowed to enter the area.Our journalist who filmed the area right after the "crash" was taken the cassette (we don't know what was on that cassette and where it is now) off and threatened not to go back there.Noone could film that area, but Russians."---------------------------------------------------------------------------This is normal procedure in any country, when a tragedy like this occurs. It's to protect the dignity of the victims as much as anything else. And not all, but some media outlets don't understand the notion of dignity, and would post pictures and film of those poor people in public. Were it me, i'd keep the press out as well, until the victims had been covered, or moved, out of respect.--------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Our pilot new Russian very well.Not only, that 20 years ago and earlier the only foreign language you could and had to learn was Russian (ok sometimes French, occasionally English or German), but he also knew it from his job at the airforce.So if you hear those ridiculous "news" from the airport tower's officer,that probably our pilot doesn't know Russian - it's a total foolishness!The pilots were very experienced."---------------------------------------------------------------------And according to the snippet of recording from the air controllers to the pilot, he was told several times the visibility was poor, and he was not only advised to divert to Moscow, or Minsk, but that he was flying too low. The decision to continue or divert rests with the commander of the flight. This is the same all over the world. It was a polish tv crew near the airport that speculated he may not have known much Russian. The standard procedure for this particular airport, agreed between Russian and Polish officials, is to use the russian language, something the polish flight that landed an hour previously, with all the journalists on board, did successfully.-------------------------------------------------------------------------"Why did the other two planes make the same errors while landing, the left wings going left and going rapidly down?"-------------------------------------------------------------------------Simply not true. 1 flight landed previously (about 1 hour) with polish journalists on board, and they reported at the time visibility was getting worse. The other, russian flight, diverted to Moscow, advised to do so by the air controllers, and following that advice.-------------------------------------------------------------------------"Why were the lights located in the wood, not alongside the air-strip?Did the lights have the working bulbs insisde of them? I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't."-------------------------------------------------------------------------The airport is a military one, and as military airports around the world, more discreetly lit for obvious reasons. In this particular case, it was the middle of the morning, and covered in fog, so no matter what lighting you used, the pilot still wouldn't have seen it.-------------------------------------------------------------------------"If there was such a big fog (the witnesses say it wans't that foggy)why didn't the operators of that airport simply close the airportin order to avoid any danger of troubles while landing?"-------------------------------------------------------------------------Again, simply not true. There was boy near the airport when the tragic crash occurred who reported the fog was thick on the ground, and although he heard the explosion, he couldn't see the plane as the fog was too thick. (Interviewed by not only on Russian TV, but across Europe as well) The polish TV crew near the airport said the same thing. Look up the weather on the internet for Smolensk, for that day. "Visibility poor".-------------------------------------------------------------------------"They knew just how important crew is flying other there, so they needed to predict what might have happened. They didn't care, didn't order just warned. Why??? They knew exactly how much fuel there might have been in that plane and that it wouldn't be able to fly so far.They should have done everything in order to make the airport visible and avoid the catastrophy. Lighten the air strip with emergency lights - if they claim it was so foggy, but heard the pilot saying he wants to land. None of it happened - as we know.The position possible for landing had to be given wrong or the system inside the plane was programmed the way, it showed the correct levels, but the machine itself was doing the opposite."-------------------------------------------------------------------------Complete paranoid nonsense. The crew were advised to divert, and told they were flying too low, but the pilot, with whom the final decision rests as is the case for pilots internationally as normal procedure, continued on.Again, the polish TV crew on the ground reported the fog was thick, and they couldn't see the sky for it. Extra lightingwouldn't have made a difference.Why didn't the pilot divert, as he was clearly advised to, acknowledged by Russian AND polish investigators?And to say the controllers, and the russian government didn't care is patently untrue, and frankly, an insult. Look at the pictures on your television, and read the information from your own press and people about how much the russian government has done to assist the polish people at this time. You disrespect the memories of those who died, and the people of Poland, with this rubbish.-----------------------------------------------------------------"The plane was being fixed in Russia. Maybe than some device was installed, device that Polish technical groups couldn't track though checking the plane again? And I'm not saying it had to be Russians that might have installed it."-----------------------------------------------------------------This is not worthy of a response, and just a clumsy attempt to find a problem called "russian".----------------------------------------------------------------"The journalists heard two blow-ups - this leads me to the idea of a exploding material placed insied the plane or the guided missile was used."----------------------------------------------------------------It isn't true. Both Polish TV crews and the local residents, including the boy that was interviewed by russian and european TV, heard 1 explosion. They've all said the same thing.----------------------------------------------------------------"It's a pitty, that Russians didn't just surround and protect the area from people other than Polish and didn't let us do the whole work, but it's a dream, this happened in Russia so Russia was responsible for checking it as in other cases. I don't know the Polish-Russian law in such cases. And am sorry, that no lawyers tell us about it.They will tell us about "all" of it when it's too late for so many procedures, so many check-ups. During that hour since we've heard the terrible news each evidence might have been cleaned up. Not necessarily on purpose, because if one assumes this wasn't their "job", than they didn't know that and were simply doing their job."-----------------------------------------------------------------This is complete nonsense. The plane crashed in Russia, and russian investigators, as are investigators all over the world, are required to attend the scene, secure it, and begin an initial investigation whilst waiting for the polish investigators to arrive. PM Putin gave strict instructions the site was to be secured, and then the team at the scene were to wait until polish investigators arrived, which they did so, as confirmed by the polish government spokesman at the time. If the plane had crashed in Poland, polish investigators would have been first on the scene and doing their job. And in this case, Russian and polish investigators worked together, including both black boxes not being opened or deciphered until polish investigators had arrived, to ensure transparency in the investigation, as reported by russian, polish, and european news outlets.No matter how hard you try, the facts so far, as reported and collected by both russian and polish officials, and media representatives, are in the public arena, as far as preserving the dignity of the victims allows them to be. (and this would be, and has been, the case in any major accident, regardless of nation)You might show some class, and mourn the deceased with some sense of compassion, without wandering off into a wild and ever more fanciful collection of conspiracy theories, just to satisfy your particular affiliations, or "anti-russian" perspective. We are fortunate there are more level headed, and humane, poles and russians here who are mourning and offering condolences in genuine remorse.This has been a tragic accident, and the evidence so far shows it as that, with questions still to be answered. As human beings, the majority of posts in this thread have been indicative of the very best of human qualities, in a shared, genuine grief, regardless of nationality, or position in society. Tue 13 Apr 2010 19:07:19 GMT+1 Peter Martin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=94#comment1023 My partner is Polish and she and her family were never great fans of Lech Kaczynski or his brand of politics but, like most Poles, have mourned his and his wife Maria's tragic passing as fellow human beings.She is however somewhat surprised and shocked that he and his wife are apparently to be laid to rest at Wawel Castle which she considers has traditionally been reserved for Polish dignatories of much higher standing than Kaczynski. Tue 13 Apr 2010 19:03:07 GMT+1 radek http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=94#comment1022 Although there is no doubt that it is a great tragedy and I'm very sorry for all the families, I simply can't stand the way in which the Polish nation is acting right now. I agree that it is a common courtesy not to denigrate those, who have passed (because they cannot defend themselves), but it doesn't mean that they should be treated as saints, no matter what they had achieved and who they really were. The fact is, that deceased president was one of the least suitable Polish politicians for this chiefly representative post (in Poland, the president has little power - his duties are to smile a lot and represent the state internationally, which he was doing quite poorly). Furthermore, (having about 15-20% national support at the time) he vetoed many acts passed by a legitimate parliamentary majority, thus paralysing legislative procedures and disabling the government he was in opposition to from executing their reforms. I'm not saying that his numerous failures should be enumerated at his burial, but a tragic death is not a reason for reinventing a person completely, which is being done in Poland right now. Polish people love tragedies, which allow them to excite lofty, solemn emotions and unite in national grief (because we have problems with uniting otherwise). We are also in need of a strong national hero - and a deceased person makes the best hero, because he can't screw anything up, he can be easily made a monumental figure. It is a bit tasteless that a person with virtually no achievements is being elevated to a status of the National Saint in media and public opinion, but the fact that he and his wife(!) is to buried in Poland's most important church, side by side with Polish kings, greatest poets and few most notable leaders (Kościuszko, Poniatowski, Piłsudski) is an outrage. As I said before, I am very sorry all those, who have lost their close friends and family because of this catastrophe, but under no circumstances should we belittle those, who were buried there for a reason, for merit, by equalling them to a person who would certainly be forgotten if it wasn't for his accidental, tragic death. Tue 13 Apr 2010 18:48:34 GMT+1 rogvolod http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=94#comment1021 2 Waldemar msg 1003------------------------------------------------------------------------The problem is not in Russia. The problem is in you, Waldemar, in your hatred towards Russia. Russia had invaded, Poland had invaded, every country on Earth had invaded some part of territory, so what?"Russians risked it trying to poison Ukrainian president Yuschenko in 2004"Ukrainian president poisoned himself in order to win some more ballots during the election campaigne, but failed to do any good for ukranian people. His legacy is 100 billion dollars debt. before ha came to office it was only 30 billions. Do not trust everything you see on a telly. use your brain, Waldemar, consider all pro and contra and maybe you will find the way to more objective info. Tue 13 Apr 2010 18:42:25 GMT+1 OLGA http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=94#comment1020 I live in Poland too. I oppose the statement that everyone in Poland were against the policy run by Lech Kaczyński. Indeed, he supported values like: family, protection of life, patriotism,faith. Generally speaking,all values which should be combined with cathoilic faith.He was devoted to his country and people living there.I get the feeling that, he was the only patriot being in our government. Tue 13 Apr 2010 18:42:06 GMT+1 Rasputin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=94#comment1019 989. At 12:06pm on 13 Apr 2010, Waldemar wrote:Ivan Veller wrote:"Regardless as to whether President Kaczynski was actually murdered, his death will likely be perceived by some in neighboring nations as an unambiguously clear warning to any former satellite state's willingness to consider NATO missile defense shield protection. Moreover, the inauspicious timing of this incident, its coinciding with the anniversary of the Katyn massacre, might furthermore be mis/interpreted as a clear signal that the political, military, and economic leadership of nations recalcitrant against Russian hegemony might likewise be eliminated en masse, with no regard to diplomatic immunity or to international convention."I take your "signal" and throw it down the toilet, so do all the Polish people and all the Eastern and Central Europeans. Secondly you Russians can "hegemonize" but only the trees of Tundra or frozen land in Siberia. The year is 2010, not 1980 the Stalin Soviet Union and Hitlers Nazi IIIrd Reich are both delegated to the dumping site of history. While Germany has democratised, Russia still struggles after loosing its former role of totalitarian state.Besides Russia belongs more to Asia, than Europe. Europe is the community of a democratic free states. Russia is and autoritarian state and together with's its style of governance and mentality of its people belongs to the Central and Eastern Asian countries.========================================================Daaamn smaaart Russians, haven’t ya heard the braking news lately my Polish friend the Eastern Asians are seemingly taking over the world and You act pretty loyal to your new US masters but obviously have chosen the wrong camp.Mentality?Lets talk about mentalities than:Throughout history the Balkans, as a cross rode, have experienced probably the most in Europe of diverse mentalities. YES the Crusade came in their shiny knights´ armours to Christianize us in the name of God …and our fighters pulled them down from the horses in no time on the ground and the poor pompous clowns couldn’t even lift up on their feet …laughter erupted and they were told to go back and tell the Pope WE are Christians looong ago, well NOT Catholics BUT still Christians, so NO need waste his time sending his armies of brankaleone “Christianize” us. LoooolThan came the Ottomans to Muslimize us with the same trick BUT this time in the name of Allah Ballah ...they refer to as their God as well. The thing was the Serbian bro´s arrived too late …and was impossible to stop 100 million nation with its army versus 10 million nation or less at the time …and not that they were better fighters than us but way outnumbered us. However, WE DID NOT surrendered as cowards but has been an exhausting battles to the last bullet to the last breath.Right before their soldiers being sent to the battle their priests giving them a glass full of brandy commanded them “Go and fight the gjaurs [the infidels - but we had our religion and God, right?] in the name of Allah.” Notice please; in the Koran IS forbidden to drink …is WHY I say “Allah Ballah”There are many stories when no provisions to fight or food left the father refuses to surrender in slavery would slit the throats of the children and his wife and than his own.After the fall those “noble” Ottomans would collect healthy baby boys of ours and take them in their province called ´Diyarbakir´ train them as a killing machines [inichars] and than as grown strong soldiers bring them back to kill their own siblings.Throughout the 500 long years oppression, although the enormous pressure to wipe out our cultural heritage libraries were hidden behind walls in monasteries and clusters …WE DID NOT lost our identity, although some (small percentage) converted into their religion. And after 500 looong years our RUSSIAN Brothers came …we fought with them shoulder to shoulder with endless energy and unseen bravery to push the Ottomans back and regain our freedom. How can WE EVER forget THAT …How CAN WE EVER repay them!In sign of gratitude in every town there are at least several streets and/or boulevards named after the Russian generals commemorating our freedom, and so are many monuments.But before that period, countless of wars from time began, generations being born and grown in wars. The town I grew up seven times levelled to the ground and rebuild again with a new name.Oh YES, WE know war! And YES, WE learned and therefore CONDEMN WAR!BUT IF we are being attacked WE also know how to stand up for ourselves. Westerners YOU are playing very dangerous games on our soils. The Orthodox are patient on provocations but once they fire up they do the job to the very end. And just because they never adopted colonialism DO NOT underestimate them.Catholic mentality:Since the time of the crusades and the famous Spanish Inquisition they have been seeking for Europe’s and world’s domination. Even recently, seemingly, everywhere they are tensions are inevitable. Ireland, Poland, Croatia, etc., all over the world …and let alone the sex appalling scandals.And it seems Waldemar the problem in Europe are not the Orthodox and the Lutherans BUT the Catholics overall.Ah YES, as the song goes “…first we take Berlin and than we take Manhattan” or in your dreams of new hierarchy of “free & democratic” Europe perhaps “…Europe Unite, first we kick out the Russians beyond Ural thus they don’t belong to Europe, and than we DO the damn Germans too (where to …well we think about it later but first lets do the job by the model of the BIG BRO) …aand fiiinillyyy we outsmart the clever Brits and with backing of the BIG BRO over the pond WE Rule Europe” Horey Horey Hoooreeeyyy!Nice dreams Waldemar …keep on dreamiiing ;)Brought me back the picture of Charlie Chaplin caricaturising Adolfo in the film how he throws the globe from one arm high in the air to another “I am the Ruler of The World.”And the way you act it looks like the Germans, after all, have had their reasons for a special treatment towards YOU the Polish Catholics and the other very special self-proclaimed special spices in human images - the Jews …speaking of “mentalities” that is.Everybody knew the late Pope was chosen from Poland as an instrument against the Soviets. All of the Bulgarians knew the fabricated case of the major Antonov falsely accused of attempt to assassin the Pope and clumsily wrapped up with another suspect, a Turkish guy, in between which there was no evident connection …but with one built we shoot two rabbits eyy. Antonov was subsequently injected into the Italian jail and lost his abilities remembering and practically, after failing attempts prove him guilty, was returned as a living vegetable with a wasted brain.BUT the personal secretary of the Pope after 20 years of the event had revealed that the attempt the Pope be assassin via poison has been done in our dear Catholic Portugal. Of course, that shouldn’t have been revealed in the open but to attack and demonise the Soviets and the Muslims, correct?It seems that the Catholics and the Jews are pretty much experienced in those espionage schemes from which most probably the CIA has learned a great deal.And YES, Vlad [from Russia] is absolutely correct in stating the Catholics have pretty dirty deeds to bare the shame of [in case they are aware of such human emotion] concerning Ukraine, Belarus, Russia and even the Balkans alike.My point is:The two major religions, Catholics and Muslims, have brought the most sufferings on planet earth ever since established as such. And no matter how secular we may claim to be they still have very huge influence around the world, likewise our cultures and values are build upon the religions as in the past were the only source of knowledge acting as a social and moral mentors.Religion again has been used in very recent times in the Balkans and around Russia, just as is being used in the ME and else where possible …the west saw them [the muslim minorities] vulnerable for manipulation and corruption and exploited them to the utmost using them against the Orthodox communities in order achieve their nasty goals. Likewise in the 90´ in Bulgaria on the front page newspaper 24 Hours was a huge article posted with the map of the country divided into five regions where CIA has been paying cash money to the minorities in order create social unrest alike in Bosnia and Kosovo …the KGB literally moved there [Sofia] their headquarters to counter the CIA what they were doing on the Balkans, as was also done in Romania.Shortly after literally echelons of religious lunatics flooded all over those countries from the west, and finally Russia and Bulgaria got enough of their “religious” madness kicked them all out and left only the four main religious streams “…go sue us in Strasbourg, if you can find any ground whatsoever.” Game over for the religious comedians!But was it something new or wasn’t it the very same trick with the colonisation history as repetition …first the missionaries with the bibles and right after them the soldiers with the swords.Therefore I support China in keeping strict control of the free marches on; freedoms, religious manifestations, human rights foolish performances, internet, etc. Hence those so called “freedoms” have demoralised and destroyed our societies from within …because these “freedoms” bring huge profits for the smart tinkers puling the strings behind the scenes …and not that the legislators and judges are not aware of all this BUT ALL we care about IS the big profits …and the silver God IS the Only one we truly respect.IF the religious are to create hatred and wars is time for us mature and get rid of them!Again, throughout the this 500 years of Ottoman oppressing, to be objective, they did not destroyed our churches or religious shrines. While recently in Kosovo vandalised by the so-called KLA [Kosovo Liberation Army - what exactly do they liberate in others territories …one wonders], created and sponsored by the west, 126 churches and monasteries some of which older than 1000 years declared by the World’s Heritage Museum under its protection. That done in the presence of a two “peace keeping missions” by NATO and OSCE. Question IS they know well those are sacred places and they are not to be touched; WHO stands behind this and instructs them do this vandalism? Or could it be; we demolish all their sacred places and after 50 years or so they will have nothing to show and prove this is indeed Serbian territory?On the other hand, via google type Carla Del Ponte (the former ICTY Chief prosecutor on Milosevic case), and check herself releasing a book where mentioned suspected of 400 Serbian and of Slavic origin people have been removed their organs and than killed in Kosovo. Welcome to the real cannibalistic barbarian world!And we pray our Serbian brothers not to lose their nerve go down wipe out ALL of the comedians form there and head down to Albania ask them for accountability.But hey the “wise” vice president of USA Joe Biden [Mr God] went down there and told them “there is NO return back …Kosovo is liberated and is good for balance and the stability of the region.” My dear God …this man badly needs medical treatment. Therefore, the opposition in the Serbian parliament went on his appearing in Belgrade with T-shirts printed on “NAZI SCUM BIDEN GO HOME.!And my personal advice to you my friend …be careful when you through stones at others, they might very easily bounce back straight on your head with double force. Tue 13 Apr 2010 18:39:17 GMT+1 Alec http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=94#comment1018 Great tragedy, but what troubles me most nobody wants to take the responsibility. They all talk about conspiracy and the "bad Russian plane".Nobody wants to admit that they were given an option to fly to a different airport due to the heavy fog, but refused it several times. So, who's to blame? Tue 13 Apr 2010 18:30:12 GMT+1 countryman12 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=93#comment1017 Air crashes happen but this one is horrible historically. History repeats and the elite is killed again near Katyn Forest, only the number of dead bodies is a fraction compared to over 25.000 in 1940. I do not believe in a mistake of a pilot but I do suspect a malfunctioning of electronic signals from the Air Trafficking Controllers. Six minutes before the deadly landing there was no more connection with the pilot. Was he able to see the red lights on the lane? Or there were no red light at all? An expert on TV said, fog is not a problem if the ATCs have good equipment and use it not causing a disturbance. Were metrics in the plain and on the ground in the same system ? Russians do not have to reveal publically all the findings because it is a military territory. External experts will not be allowed to join investigation. Speculations will go on. This is 2nd Katyn to Poland and it will not bring any reconciliation with Russia. Russia will not open documents about Katyn, will not confess responsibility for massacre. Poland is suddenly weakened politically, I think there are no firm leaders inside the country who can firmly stand up and raise voice against Russia, as Kaczynski did. Russia is in strong pact with US ( nuclear disarmament) and Germany ( gas line) and PL crashed. It is enough for Russia to feel protected in EU. Poland is left alone, again, like after the WWII. What is wrong with this brave nation that they get these historical blows for centuries ? Maybe they have never learned how to deceive the enemy ? My country Poland will stand up one day and will become even stronger but it will need time. Poland, do not give up!! Tue 13 Apr 2010 18:16:25 GMT+1 Vlad17 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=93#comment1016 1003. At 3:17pm on 13 Apr 2010, Waldemar wrote:...Russian autoritarian state has distroyed many nations and still occupies their land; Tatars, Taszkents, Yakutians, Kamczatkans, Osetians and many other...Nice mix of nations, capitals, geographic locations etc. Especially Ossetians just saved from a bloody tyran Saakashvili. Are you insane my friend Waldemar?BTW, Tatars.. this is a muslim well respected nation in Russia and always was. Go to Kazan City - their capital now and say what you said. Tatars will lough at you. Have you ever bothered to get to know the name of Musa Jalil killed in nazis KZ? I don not mention his heart touching poetry from prison saved by his brothers in arms, POWs.I indeed feel sorry for Great Polish people. I know who is Adam Mickevich. You can see his monuments in Russia. Who erected them? Communists of course. Because in their view he was a Hero. So please do not portray yourself as innocent victims of communist brutal tyrania. We Russians do not want a single piece of your land. Please let us heel our own wounds after events of 90th. And - we look forward to cooperation with US, UK, Germany and all our friends to make future better and safer. Please do me a favour, do not speak for all Poles whilst enjoing good life in US. For all our Polish friends a sincere symphaty from Russia. Tue 13 Apr 2010 18:05:00 GMT+1 Uroboros http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=93#comment1015 Overwhelming sympathy for the Polish people and those to whom the dead were especially dear. A strong wish that the Polish Eagle will rise like a phoenix from the ashes of that plane and find new energy in its internal affairs and external influence. Tue 13 Apr 2010 17:22:05 GMT+1 Danuta14 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=93#comment1014 Lech Kaczynski was the best President of Poland after WWII .It is heart- breaking the news about his death.I admire him while he was alive for his wisdom and care like father of Poland. Our media by purpose were destroying image of our President,they are not independent and they do what is said them to do, like in cumminist era.Polish people won't know the reason for the crash of the plane, too many evidence show it wasn't an accident. Tue 13 Apr 2010 17:13:42 GMT+1 Nicomo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=93#comment1013 I've lived in Warsaw for 10 years, I'm a British Indian.The last time I witnessed such an outpouring of grief was when the Pope died. What happened is a National Tragedy and most people are saddened but what must come quickly is closure in the form of an open-transparent-inquiry to all media outlets into the cause of the crash. Unfortunately, the minds of many people still hold too much distrust and this needs to be quickly put at ease. Poland now has centre stage, it is in a position of great importance to mediate between Russia and Europe. Lets hope it puts behind this distrust to help foster a new positive relationship with its neighbours. Tue 13 Apr 2010 17:11:49 GMT+1 Alicja http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=93#comment1012 The journalists weren't allowed to enter the area.Our journalist who filmed the area right after the "crash" was taken the cassette (we don't know what was on that cassette and where it is now) off and threatened not to go back there.Noone could film that area, but Russians.Our pilot new Russian very well.Not only, that 20 years ago and earlier the only foreign language you could and had to learn was Russian (ok sometimes French, occasionally English or German), but he also knew it from his job at the airforce.So if you hear those ridiculous "news" from the airport tower's officer,that probably our pilot doesn't know Russian - it's a total foolishness!The pilots were very experienced.Why did the other two planes make the same errors while landing, the left wings going left and going rapidly down?Why were the lights located in the wood, not alongside the air-strip?Did the lights have the working bulbs insisde of them? I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.If there was such a big fog (the witnesses say it wans't that foggy)why didn't the operators of that airport simply close the airportin order to avoid any danger of troubles while landing?They knew just how important crew is flying other there, so they needed to predict what might have happened. They didn't care, didn't order just warned. Why??? They knew exactly how much fuel there might have been in that plane and that it wouldn't be able to fly so far.They should have done everything in order to make the airport visible and avoid the catastrophy. Lighten the air strip with emergency lights - if they claim it was so foggy, but heard the pilot saying he wants to land. None of it happened - as we know.The position possible for landing had to be given wrong or the system inside the plane was programmed the way, it showed the correct levels, but the machine itself was doing the opposite.The plane was being fixed in Russia. Maybe than some device was installed, device that Polish technical groups couldn't track though checking the plane again? And I'm not saying it had to be Russians that might have installed it.The journalists heard two blow-ups - this leads me to the idea of a exploding material placed insied the plane or the guided missile was used.It's a pitty, that Russians didn't just surround and protect the area from people other than Polish and didn't let us do the whole work, but it's a dream, this happened in Russia so Russia was responsible for checking it as in other cases. I don't know the Polish-Russian law in such cases. And am sorry, that no lawyers tell us about it.They will tell us about "all" of it when it's too late for so many procedures, so many check-ups. During that hour since we've heard the terrible news each evidence might have been cleaned up. Not necessarily on purpose, because if one assumes this wasn't their "job", than they didn't know that and were simply doing their job. Tue 13 Apr 2010 17:06:38 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=93#comment1011 Re #109 Kaczynski allowed the U.S. to propose a missile base in Poland. The move could bring offensive weapons to East Europe.Just the opposite. 10 ANTI-missile launchers were to be deployed near the Poland's Baltic Coast. As part of a global anti-ballistic defence (AMD)A pertinent agreement has been signed by Polish Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski and the US Secretary of State Condie Rice, with the approval of premier Donald Tusk (whose still a premier). Tue 13 Apr 2010 17:02:50 GMT+1 Slowrid-Der http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=93#comment1010 From what I am hearing, Mr. Kaczynski did not like the EU and did not like the globalist bankers that were crushing Poland's economy as they are doing to the rest of the world. He intended to stop the bleeding by pulling out of the EU and ditching the globalist bankers. Instead for doing that he is dead. How convenient for the EU and Bankers. For if he succeeded he would have shown the rest of the world that they could do the same. Now the EU and bankers do not have that headache anymore. Tue 13 Apr 2010 16:48:47 GMT+1 Alicja http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=93#comment1009 The assassins didn't even have to be from Europe. And that is even more frightening for me. It can turn into a much bigger conflict.My mind is going round and round and I know I won't be able to present the facts.Or even if we would find the facts saying it was the assassination - would the world believe us?I doubt it.As always we would have been left alone. The history tought us that.We were defending and helping many nations, but when for example the Second World War had finished and the Soviet communists invaded our country the democratic countries - allies during the war - did not help us. We had to struggle with them by ourselves as well as with those Poles who served them for almost 45 years or even longer.So you see, my mind is a bit mixed up - the history connects with the economy, but in the end I know, that once again noone will help us, support us in the theory of assassination against our country, our freedom. Tue 13 Apr 2010 16:10:20 GMT+1 sean56z http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=93#comment1008 Kaczynski allowed the U.S. to propose a missile base in Poland. The move could bring offensive weapons to East Europe. The economy of Poland will improve by peaceful negotiations with Moscow. Poland must develop as a technical nation. The making of scientific products betters a nation's financial standing. Tue 13 Apr 2010 16:02:46 GMT+1 hanna magdalena http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=93#comment1007 Thank you, Russia.Hanna, Poland Tue 13 Apr 2010 16:00:54 GMT+1 Alicja http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=92#comment1006 This didn't have to be Russia.Maybe this government/organization wants us to believe, that it was Russia.Or Russia wants us to think, that it didn't have to be Russia if they are so helpful, so kind (all of the sudden).Gas, raw materials, trade in general? Could that be a reason? To eliminate Poland now, because earlier or later we will accuse Russia for what has happened?Or maybe the issue at stake was - the political power of PiS, their decissions after next elections and winning - I would vote for the candidate from PiS and still will and so maybe some group from, let's call it "X" was afraid, that after elections and winning of someone from PiS party the decissions for example at the EU meetings of different kinds would be unconvenient for this X?I know that my writing may seem a bit random for some, but I hope you get what I mean.We live in a very dangerous times, so this "crash" doesn't look as a "normal" crash for me and many Poles. Tue 13 Apr 2010 15:56:07 GMT+1 Alicja http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=92#comment1005 I think it was the assassination.The question is - who had a concern in it?Who did it help or will it help?Which government/s or organization/s decided to do that towards my country? Tue 13 Apr 2010 15:45:51 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=92#comment1004 Re #999 "There are tons of reporters dying in Russia for some STRANGE reason? Care to ponder why?"Don't read too much into it.Perhaps Russia's climate is simply to harsh for independent investigative reporters?[Although, grant ya, they are usually not killed in Magadan or Kolyma.] Tue 13 Apr 2010 14:56:54 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=92#comment1003 Re "General Sikorski has also been disliked by many of his contemporaries, including high-ranking officials.- That crash was mysterious, sometimes attributed to pilot error.- There were no survivors (except Gen. Sikorski's pilot)"Major Prhala (a Czech) has later stated that just after take-off from Gibraltar he had found out that his controls were jammed.[A crash occured shortly after premier Sikorski demanded a investigation into the Katyn Massacre thus infuriating Churchill who didn't want to upset Uncle Joe.] Tue 13 Apr 2010 14:50:37 GMT+1 Waldemar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=92#comment1002 Igor wrote:"For one thing, the conspiracy theories supporters are somewhat exaggerating the political importance of Poland (no offense to the Polish people intended). But you must be out of your mind to imagine that Russian authorities would waste time or energy (and risk international condemnation) to target the Polish political leadership."-------------------------------------------------------------------------Russians risked it invading tiny Georgia in 2008, and trying to overthrow Georgian President Shakalashvilli. Russians risked it trying to poison Ukrainian president Yuschenko in 2004. So why not now? I would not trust Russians, in thereir entire history Russia has invaded all its neigbours at least some 24 of them, but if you ask Russians or read so called Russian "history" books, according to those "Russia has never invaded any country". It is said that Russia are able to accept any cruelty done to oter nations as "fair" in order to further and advance their own goals, goals and interest of Russia. Why would Polish President be inconvenient for Russian autoritarian regime? Well, he told the World the truth about Russian crimes against humanity; in Katyn when Soviet Russia has executed 22 000 of Polish military officers, governement workers and inteligentia, all in effort to distroy Polish naton. Russian autoritarian state has distroyed many nations and still occupies their land; Tatars, Taszkents, Yakutians, Kamczatkans, Osetians and many other. Imperialism is in Russian mentality, Russians will never understand why people have problem with them, just like the wolf will never understand why rabits and other smaller animals hate it. Tue 13 Apr 2010 14:17:52 GMT+1 MaSte http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=92#comment1001 All time is nowKneel down and bowMa.Ste.Poland Tue 13 Apr 2010 14:07:40 GMT+1 sean56z http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=92#comment1000 This post has been Removed Tue 13 Apr 2010 14:00:47 GMT+1 Gaja http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=92#comment999 Indeed, the nation is in mourning and so are many sympathetic countries. It is quite poignant and pointless death of many at such an unfortunate time, the 70th anniversary of Katyn. I wont speculate, nor acuse anyone for a such tragic 'event'. Nothing will bring them back, sadly. However, people seems to be very short sited and grief stricken. The Russian politics toward Poland has not changed that much since the history begun, the same game continues just the tactics and propaganda has improved. I am sorry, but there are too many questions unanswered, a very similar 'event' from a few years ago when a considerable group of air-force officers died coming back from Russia (in the same type of plane). There are many other 'coincidences' but as I said, there is no point of pointing out fingers but, either way, do not be fooled by the propaganda. Tue 13 Apr 2010 13:50:05 GMT+1 Southernmarine25 USA http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=92#comment998 This smells fishy to me. First, the Soviets, after decades of blatantly denying that they had absolutely no involvement in what happened then all of the sudden say they did it near the anniversary? Subsequently, they then bring a huge delegation of some of the MOST powerful leaders of Poland on ONE plane which then miraculously crashes into the ground right when they are ABOUT to land? This may be my college English major kicking in; but doesn't it seem a little, you know, IRONIC that just when the event is just about to take place, they die? It's as if the Russians were saying, you got to see the finish line and even though you didn't make it, but hey you were ALMOST there!!! Perhaps now that Russia is again becoming a world power, maybe they are reverting back to old KGB ways? There are tons of reporters dying in Russia for some STRANGE reason? Care to ponder why? Tue 13 Apr 2010 12:52:21 GMT+1 Vlad17 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=92#comment997 989. At 12:06pm on 13 Apr 2010, Waldemar wrote:Ivan Veller wrote:"Regardless as to whether President Kaczynski was actually murdered, his death will likely be perceived by some in neighboring nations as an unambiguously clear warning to any former satellite state's willingness to consider NATO missile defense shield protection. Moreover, the inauspicious timing of this incident, its coinciding with the anniversary of the Katyn massacre, might furthermore be mis/interpreted as a clear signal that the political, military, and economic leadership of nations recalcitrant against Russian hegemony might likewise be eliminated en masse, with no regard to diplomatic immunity or to international convention."I take your "signal" and throw it down the toilet, so do all the Polish people and all the Eastern and Central Europeans. Secondly you Russians can "hegemonize" but only the trees of Tundra or frozen land in Siberia.------------------------------------------------------------------------I bet Ivan Veller is working for CIA. Ivan do you think we are so stupid to believe in your fairy tail? First principle of imperialism - demonize your enemy. Tue 13 Apr 2010 12:31:44 GMT+1 Igor http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=92#comment996 My deepest condolences to the Polish people! Tragedies like this have no political or national boundaries, and the hearts of all the people in the world are now with the Poles! Forget for a moment that this was a president and some high ranking politicians. No matter what anyone thought of their politics, remember - these are simply human lives! The loss of each and every one of them has left a tragic and painful mark in the hearts of their families and people who loved them. I personally find it appalling that people are speculating on the tragedy, building conspiracy theories and trying to derail the emerging warm up in the Poland-Russia relations. For one thing, the conspiracy theories supporters are somewhat exaggerating the political importance of Poland (no offense to the Polish people intended). But you must be out of your mind to imagine that Russian authorities would waste time or energy (and risk international condemnation) to target the Polish political leadership. Those Poles who think that it was a singnificant nuisance or inconvinience to Russian authorities are wishful thinkers... Tue 13 Apr 2010 12:30:18 GMT+1 Foma http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=91#comment995 My condolences to all Poles. It is very sad event.I do not think that in the long term thisevent will change Polish-Russian relations. Animosity to Poland is in great part formented by Mr Putin. Not only Kaczynski is to blame. Tue 13 Apr 2010 12:21:52 GMT+1 DibbySpot http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=91#comment994 While sadned for all those losing their lives it is what happens when professionals are influenced by amatuers.It seems the pilot was persuaded to "go for it" despite being told not to.The lesson which was paid for in human lives was let professionals do what they do best - it saves lives in the end. Tue 13 Apr 2010 12:10:25 GMT+1 Doctuer_Eiffel http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=91#comment993 "How will Kaczynski's death change Poland?"Maybe the pilots decision will be more respected in future if the pilot is not threatened by higher ranking incompetents. Tue 13 Apr 2010 11:56:18 GMT+1 2 old http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=91#comment992 ok my name is not Brown but i think its time for change.get back to basics spend on ,health,education,dont spend on immgration,any type of relive or handouts,TO OTHER COUNTRIES get our house in order first no war in afgan no E.U ,no trident and no to anything elsethis country is a sponge for all and sundry and must stop FULL STOP.As for MPs they should be treated the same as every body else they are not special but are still accountable to us . Tue 13 Apr 2010 11:51:43 GMT+1 scott http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=91#comment991 Why do the few good politicians left in this world seem to meet untimely deaths??? Tue 13 Apr 2010 11:24:37 GMT+1 scott http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=91#comment990 Why do people think Russia had something to do with it, they may have, or it might have been a genuine accident, but my money is on the EU being to blame! Tue 13 Apr 2010 11:18:26 GMT+1 scott http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=91#comment989 The polish president was threatening the future of the Euro and the European Union. Need I say more? Tue 13 Apr 2010 11:15:44 GMT+1 Waldemar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=91#comment988 Ivan Veller wrote:"Regardless as to whether President Kaczynski was actually murdered, his death will likely be perceived by some in neighboring nations as an unambiguously clear warning to any former satellite state's willingness to consider NATO missile defense shield protection. Moreover, the inauspicious timing of this incident, its coinciding with the anniversary of the Katyn massacre, might furthermore be mis/interpreted as a clear signal that the political, military, and economic leadership of nations recalcitrant against Russian hegemony might likewise be eliminated en masse, with no regard to diplomatic immunity or to international convention."I take your "signal" and throw it down the toilet, so do all the Polish people and all the Eastern and Central Europeans. Secondly you Russians can "hegemonize" but only the trees of Tundra or frozen land in Siberia. The year is 2010, not 1980 the Stalin Soviet Union and Hitlers Nazi IIIrd Reich are both delegated to the dumping site of history. While Germany has democratised, Russia still struggles after loosing its former role of totalitarian state.Besides Russia belongs more to Asia, than Europe. Europe is the community of a democratic free states. Russia is and autoritarian state and together with's its style of governance and mentality of its people belongs to the Central and Eastern Asian countries. Tue 13 Apr 2010 11:06:45 GMT+1 rasmus http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=91#comment987 It has to be said that Lech Kaczynski was a statesman, really good president that cared not only for Poland but also for the rest of Europe, his visions may have differed from those of EU-bureaucrats, but he always meant the best interest of all EU-nations, not only of Poland. Also very warm and sympathetic to Russian nation (though critical towards the post-Soviet imperial nostalgia and Putin's KGB-like rules), pity people are not aware of that... what is more important he was a true freedom-fighter all his life, very brave, also when he risked inprisonment by the Communists.The man of values and ideas, not a cynical standard politician... Tue 13 Apr 2010 10:51:46 GMT+1 ray poolton http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=91#comment986 I wish to express my deepest condolences to people of Poland. Tue 13 Apr 2010 10:45:56 GMT+1 Jacek http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=91#comment985 One cannot imagine the deep grief we felt while listening to the tragic news of Saturday morning.Inevitable memories spring to my mind:- General Sikorski died on 4th of July, 1943, also in an airplane crash, which has happened a few months after Katyn Massacre had been discovered.- General Sikorski has also been disliked by many of his contemporaries, including high-ranking officials.- That crash was mysterious, sometimes attributed to pilot error.- There were no survivors (except Gen. Sikorski's pilot)It is all too easy to put the blame on pilot or on Late Pres. Kaczynski who wanted to attend the ceremony on time. I am afraid that we will never know the truth. Tue 13 Apr 2010 10:44:16 GMT+1 Vlad17 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=90#comment984 974. At 05:13am on 13 Apr 2010, Ray of Light wrote:...While fuming about this, I contemplate the history of abuse the Polish people endured at the hand of the Czars, and then the Soviets, the Nazis and the Soviets again...The Nazis and the Soviets rooted out the Creator and darkness and evil filled that void. The U.S.A. brought the light back, rebuilt a destroyed world, faced down the Russian bear along with Pope John Paul, a Pole, and gave the lands back to its people...In one way it is a sense of wonderment and curiousity as to how the U.S. patriots and the Polish people are going to be God's instruments to keep leading the world toward the light...--------------------------------------------------------Ask yourself a few questions.1. What do you know about 500 years of Polish brutal occupation of russian lands and forceful Catholization of Orthodox people in their own home with fire and sword? By the end of Polish occupation Orthodox Church in fact was annihilated in today's Ukraine and Belorussia. But revived later.2. What I ordinary Russian should now think about America? That America enlightened the world with nuclear light. Joke. There are good people in US and many.3. Why Orthodox Cristians unlike Popes never declared Crusades on other Christian confessions? If Tsar was so bad for Poles, how Poland is still alive and Catholic after abt 100 years of tsarist orthodox occupation? Even got independence after WW-1 from Russia.Please STOP IGNITING medieval religios HATRED between Poles and Russians. Bring better your own home in order and do not lecture us on our own tragic hystory. Tue 13 Apr 2010 10:36:09 GMT+1 katarzyna http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=90#comment983 It was a tragedy but it is NOT going to change Poland much. Well, at least not for the western part of Poland. It has, however, certainly recovered Kaczynski's reputation.From Historical point of view president Kaczynski will for sure be remembered in the way he wanted which wouldn't be the same if he continued in politics.Now everyone is mourning and they even want to place his coffin in Royal Tombs on Wawel Hill. A very special place whith special kings, queens and all the greatest in Polish history and as sad as I can be about the tragedy and so many lives lost this is an EXAGGERATION. I only await his statues spreding around like spring flowers. And it can olny bring harm because people will soon get tired of that. Tue 13 Apr 2010 10:35:45 GMT+1 sean56z http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/04/what_next_for_poland.html?page=90#comment982 This post has been Removed Tue 13 Apr 2010 10:27:30 GMT+1