Comments for http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html en-gb 30 Fri 26 Dec 2014 20:19:09 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html Erwin Liebers http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=99#comment1365 This post has been Removed Wed 24 Mar 2010 09:15:29 GMT+1 Erwin Liebers http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=99#comment1364 Triple infamy:1. Taking advantage of the ingenuity and confidence of the believer, who thinks the pedophile priest is an angel.2. Raping a minor, causing irreparable psychological damage for life.3. The concealment of these criminals by the church, that also relocates them elsewhere to continue abusing children.Excuse them? There are people who are in jail for stealing a hen. What should be done with these criminals and their accomplices who protect them? Wed 24 Mar 2010 08:56:34 GMT+1 Tibor http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=99#comment1363 Ref: "I Love the Pope"Reserve your LOVE. Love is life, love is like oxygen.One may like, respect, adore, recognize, etc him, but love is not to be wasted, especially not on heads of selfish organisations.Love is the top earthy passion, earthy attachment, love is craziness, love is madness, love is sacrifice for other person(s) you attach yourself in every meaning to. Reserve it to yourself and do not waste it on performers, artists or on officials of states with fictitious beliefs and tricky interests. Please...This would be my advice to my son and daughter. It has nothing to do with HYS. Thank you. Wed 24 Mar 2010 07:47:25 GMT+1 Neil Probert http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=99#comment1362 These admissions by the vatican only prove what people have believed for a very long time; that child abuse by catholic priests was endemic. Now all the vatican has to do is to prove that there is a god; a far tougher proposition. Wed 24 Mar 2010 07:11:25 GMT+1 Anyi-Dk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=99#comment1361 We live in a dangerous time! Terrible things happens and the on-going issue is probably the reflection of that.. It is a sad news to read that some priest gave the devil the free hand to use them. Although we know that they are also human beings and not above sin. Having said that, one must also be fair before rushing into conclusion, why because we know the times are bad, and many dubious people can do anything for money, even coming up with false claims of abuse. One may also ask, why has it taken them so long as way back as 30, 40, 50 years ago before reporting them now!! Could one be tempted to ask if the whole thing was a plot by the disgruntled few that could not get their way, like the Gays, Lesbians, Abortionists etc. to get back at the church for not yielding in to their demands which is against the Catholic teaching?? Wed 24 Mar 2010 07:10:18 GMT+1 Steve Smith http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=99#comment1360 This shows that faith is just as fallible as any other system. Just because someone has faith that is supposed to make them a better person. Thus one would expect that a faith based organization to be so much better than a non-faith or secular one.Instead we find that the Catholic Church behaved like any other large organization and tried to cover up.Why do we as a society give so much importance to faith?We should treat it for what it is a belief that one has an invisible friend. If people gain comfort from that fine, but lets not give any special considerations for that view other than politeness. Wed 24 Mar 2010 04:04:17 GMT+1 sgt http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=99#comment1359 Catholic Church is mortally wounded by eternal, constant problems with celibacy, faith, being PROTECTED by all Govt's. I am Byzantine, with lousy Priests, Bishops, etc. They are parents, married. Perhaps an angry spouse will do more for faith than a lawsuit. All established faiths, Judaism, Islam, Anglican, Lutheran, Animism, Tribalism, etc., have the spiritual head emulate normal, natural conduct of a family life. Plain, simple. These young "Jesuits", warriors of god cannot stop human nature, feelings, etc. It is unrealistic to expect perfection from sheltered people. Lust, love, etc is hard to control, I cannot see any future with rigid celibacy. Wed 24 Mar 2010 01:15:19 GMT+1 mos http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=99#comment1358 Only Catholics can answer this question. As a Catholic my faith remains unchanged as it is not dependent on the action or inaction of priests but on my relationship with Jesus Christ and the state of my soul. I believe in the purity of his teachings and the moral authority of the Church because it comes directly from God. Priests are human beings, too, and I hope the Church will not allow homosexual or sexually immature men to join the priesthood in future.Contrary to popular belief, abstinence does not make men into pedophiles or turn homosexual towards adolescent youth - it is in their nature before they join the priesthood. They have done great damage to the Irish Church but the faithful understand how our culture in Ireland could have turned a blind eye to these goings-on 30 years ago.Such things were not really 'crimes' then - even the word pedophile is a quite new word in the irish vocabulary. They were known as 'diddlers' and a child was advised to run like mad if they came across one. I remember one such man - he was called CPR - and my mother and grandmother told me to run past his house or he would come out and chop my head off with a hatchet. This was their simple yet powerful way (and society's way) of dealing with such unpleasant people - avoidance. It was a simple way to protect me and it worked, I never ever saw the man in my dashes for safety.So, a whole of Irish society treated such men in this way - not just the Church. The police were never called in. Today people react differently and are rightly paranoid about leaving children in the care of men. The pedaphles are not new to society - they are still with us in the form of secular teachers/sport coaches/any profession that brings them in contact with children. Thankfully, the priesthood may be cleansed from them from now on.I love Jesus Christ and his Church and will not abandon it because of this. Wed 24 Mar 2010 00:42:09 GMT+1 Ralphie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=99#comment1357 There's no mysticism, atheism, philosophy, Catholicism. What there is, is the fact that the rumours about paedophilia that have been going around for decades if not centuries are now clearly to be proven. Anything else is an attempt at justifying, covering up, denying and extenuation by one side and bashing by the other. This doesn't help in any way to find a solution to eradicate child abuse. Tue 23 Mar 2010 23:46:42 GMT+1 I Love the Pope http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=99#comment1356 1353. At 9:14pm on 23 Mar 2010, The_Scatologist.ScientificallyEstablished wrote: “The abuse of children is both illogical and an outrage. You could be denying this scandal which was perpetrated by clergy of the Roman Catholic Church for eternity.”I haven’t denied it. I said, “The Catholic Church is not the scandal of paedophilia. Most Catholics are good people, who work tirelessly in Catholic charities like Cafod and Caritas to help the poor and needy – providing to those who need it, food, medical aid, education, shelter and clothing. They are the Catholics I am defending. I am not defending paedophiles and protectors of paedophiles.” I condemn paedophilia and its protectors, and I am, with other Catholics, working to sack and imprison them. I only defend good Catholics, particularly the 33 Doctors of the Church, which is what the Catholic Church essentially is. Tue 23 Mar 2010 23:19:30 GMT+1 Terence Gaffney http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=99#comment1355 Yes, the Catholic Church can overcome child abuse scandals in the USA and Ireland and anywhere else it has happened. Providing the guilty parties are banished from the church and those affected are well paid for the terrible ordeals that they have gone through. But don't forget - these abuses have gone-on in other religions too! Usually it's the "higher-ups" that could have stopped most of this if they had done the right thing by reporting it to the correct authorities. I bet ALL religions are ON GUARD now and will do the right thing. It's like everything else BAD - only a small amount of people do these things. Tue 23 Mar 2010 23:17:54 GMT+1 Bill Baur http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=99#comment1354 If the Pope is infallible, then why doesn't he follow this: A man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. —Genesis 2:24Sounds like an OK for marriage from God to me. Tue 23 Mar 2010 22:40:58 GMT+1 I Love the Pope http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=99#comment1353 This post has been Removed Tue 23 Mar 2010 22:06:17 GMT+1 SpiritoLibero http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=98#comment1352 I love the Pope,The abuse of children is both illogical and an outrage.You could be denying this scandal which was perpetrated by clergy of the Roman Catholic Church for eternity.Why don't you help the situation by admitting that it happened and blame those who are guilty and those who protected them, encourage them to stand before a court and face trial for what they have done. Deflecting and denying will only ensure one thing, continuance. May your God forgive you. Tue 23 Mar 2010 21:14:55 GMT+1 I Love the Pope http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=98#comment1351 1343. At 5:02pm on 23 Mar 2010, The_Scatologist.ScientificallyEstablished wrote: “If society allows the RCC to recover from this outrageous scandal, then the world will be much worse of for it.”The Catholic Church is not the scandal of paedophilia. Most Catholics are good people, who work tirelessly in Catholic charities like Cafod and Caritas to help the poor and needy. They are the Catholics I am defending. I am not defending paedophiles and protectors of paedophiles.Some atheists are paedophiles and protectors of paedophiles. That doesn’t mean that all atheists are paedophiles and protectors of paedophiles. But using your logic, all atheists are indeed paedophiles and protectors of paedophiles, and atheism is therefore child abuse and harmful to the world. Tue 23 Mar 2010 19:35:48 GMT+1 I Love the Pope http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=98#comment1350 1344. At 5:17pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “But surely mysticism isnt in question here”I have to disagree. Mysticism is the Catholic Church. So if you reject the Catholic Church, you are rejecting mysticism.The Catholic Church is essentially the 33 Doctors of the Church, whose lives and works are explained in the book ‘The 33 Doctors of the Church’ by Christopher Rengers. At least three of them were mystics and justified Catholic Doctrine using mysticism.1344. At 5:17pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “Your quest for knowledge is not limited to the organisation but if justice is to be done one of two things must happen-

The church must give the criminals to justice

Or

The people on the quest for knowledge and faith in god should abandon the RCC and continue the pursuit without joining in the crime of supporting criminals.”The rot is gradually being rooted out of the Catholic Church. The paedophiles and their protectors in the Church should be sacked and imprisoned. I, as a Catholic, am campaigning for that to happen. Catholics don’t need to renounce the 33 Doctors of the Catholic Church to achieve this.1344. At 5:17pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “It is more important to the species to live morally which is based on humanist standards (we all have those as experimentation has proven).”Philosophers of science have proven logically that there is no such thing as scientific proof. Science has been debunked by the philosophy of science.1344. At 5:17pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “Hitler was catholic”It’s strange then that he exterminated the German Catholic Priests in concentration camps and demanded that the SS members renounce Catholicism.1344. At 5:17pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “The question is how religion could have made an atheist.”People have the choice between atheism and theism. Your school may have only given you strawberry ice cream, but that doesn’t stop you from preferring vanilla.1344. At 5:17pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “you cant rally atheists to war by invoking non-religious beliefs”Communist/Marxist governments have, and they are atheist.1344. At 5:17pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “Blind faith will never lead to knowledge as no questions have been asked”Philosophers of science argue the same – that science is largely blind faith that does not lead to knowledge.Thank you for your stimulating responses. Tue 23 Mar 2010 19:26:30 GMT+1 GeoffWard http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=98#comment1349 If Interpol won't act for Europe within the EU, and can't act within the non-EU Vatican State, then why have not the national police forces acted within their national boundaries to excise this cancer of Catholic paedophilia? The absence of such action places the police forces and their Governmental masters as culpable.Ask the question PUBLICALLY of your prospective MPs during the coming weeks. Tue 23 Mar 2010 18:57:25 GMT+1 Tibor http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=98#comment1348 I wish to see abused all of those abusers.Publicly. Tue 23 Mar 2010 18:57:01 GMT+1 Ricky http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=98#comment1347 This is quite a curious question to be posed in GB - we all know how Catholics have suffered for centuries here since the dissolution etc. Remember its not so long since Catholics were allowed to be back in parliament. Think for a moment about how much you actually know about Catholic teaching and then remember our laws are founded on it. Secularists have to understand their moral code is also founded in the Catholic roots of the law, don't let anti-religious tendencies allow you to believe in some kind of self-evident ethical status. It only feels self-evident because of the route our society has taken. In direct answer to the question I would say that in 20 years/100 years/500 years the Catholic church will scarcely notice the disgusting acts of some of a tiny minority of Her clergy. If she rose above the endless wild scandals of the Papal Princes (e.g. the Borgias) then this Little Englander quarrel won't disturb her. Tue 23 Mar 2010 18:56:02 GMT+1 I Love the Pope http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=98#comment1346 Thanks for your further response. I also really appreciate that this controversial subject has not broken down into name calling, as often happens.1341. At 4:48pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “My argument is that people supporting the catholic church, joining its ranks and worse of all fighting for the image of the church are making themselves part of the crime.”My counter argument is that defending the Catholic Church cannot be equated with defending paedophilia. I defend the Catholic Church against the crime of paedophilia, plus I defend the Catholic Church against anti-Catholics. I condemn all paedophiles and their protectors.I defend the Catholic Church only because I defend mysticism. Mysticism is an alternative source of knowledge to science. Mysticism and science are not incompatible, nor have they ever been. I realize that your fiancé and her family may not know about Catholic mysticism.Mysticism is not faith. Mysticism provides knowledge, just as science does. I suggest that instead of finding out about Catholicism from your fiancé and here family, you instead consult the 33 Doctors of the Catholic Church. At least three of them were mystics – St. Catherine of Siena, St. John of the Cross, and St. Theresa of Avila.I must emphasise again that the method of mystical training – asceticism and mortification – is universal to all religions. It is not unique to Catholicism.1341. At 4:48pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “I (and my science studying fiance) are wondering where the philosophy is in the science (she is studying biochemistry). I accept science but I dont believe in philosophy unless its in a debate. Any solid fact can be proven in some way but philosophy can argue that fact is fiction using obfuscation by words.”It is unfortunate that most scientists are not taught any philosophy.However, science is a branch of philosophy. It is impossible to separate philosophy and science. A debate in science over something like string theory is the 3500-year-old debate between rationalism and empiricism. It started with the Ancient Greeks, and it’s still going. The philosopher of Science, professor Jeffrey L. Kasser, in the teaching company course ‘Philosophy of science’, explains how science without philosophy is meaningless, because science can only define itself using the philosophy of science. So if you reject philosophy, you automatically reject science as well.For example, science defines what a “scientific fact” is by using philosophy. What constitutes a “scientific fact” cannot be defined using science. The Logical Positivists were the 20th Century scientific philosophers who tried to define what a scientific fact is using logic. They tried to find the verification principle, the objective of which was to logically connect synthetic to analytic statements. Without this verification principle, there is no world external to the mind, and therefore rationalism beats empiricism.1341. At 4:48pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “Science is not accepted on a book, or a leader, or even a democracy.”Philosophers of science would disagree with you. For example, in terms of the demarcation problem, philosophers have shown that scientists often differentiate science from pseudoscience just in terms of social trappings, and not by logically scrutinizing experimental results and theories. The demarcation problem is a very complicated issue, which I have only touched on in my philosophy degree. But it ultimately shows that the difference between science and religion is not as clear as scientists claim. It is much more complicated than your differentiation between “faith” and “fact”.1341. At 4:48pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “This does not say god is impossible but it does cast doubt on the churches actions in protecting and harbouring criminals in the name of an improbable entity which, if good, wouldnt condone such actions.”You are trusting in probability theory, which is a branch of statistics, which is science. Science is not in a position to make claims about the existence of God. Philosophers of science have shown that science is riddled with logical contradictions. Only philosophy has the tools necessary to understand whether or not God exists.Of course there are bad people in the Catholic Church, and bad decisions have been made by the Church. But that does not undermine the truth of mysticism, just as bad scientists don’t undermine the truth of science. Tue 23 Mar 2010 18:48:03 GMT+1 TrueDeal http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=98#comment1345 As I said it before on this forum, the sins and the atrocities of organized religion, such as of the Catholic Church, do not prove that there is no God. Just because drivers break traffic laws, it does not mean that there was nobody behind those laws who had good intentions in establishing them. The Catholic Church is just one major religion, and as we have seen recently, most, even Catholics, have their doubts that catholic religion has anything to do with God. The alternative to the existence of God is not very hopeful. In the view of Richard Dawkins, a leading evolutionist and atheist, the universe has “no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.” This seems totally contrary to human nature, even of atheists, who may have spiritual needs, feel the need for fulfilling and meaningful life. Most atheists, but not all, believe in evolution, which requires just as much faith, if not more, as the belief in a creator. To say that something came from nothing requires belief or faith more so then the belief that something came of something. I mean, the creation of life from nothing has never been duplicated with the help of someone (man). Life has not been recreated from lifeless matter or energy. Talking about creation we are not talking here about just simple designs. The universe and its fine-tuning, especially that of our solar system and the Earth, is too mind-boggling to appear just by chance. The theory of evolution still remains a theory, though it is taught as a fact??? Returning to the real subject of this discussion, the Catholic Church is on “life support” and nobody will change that, even the most enthusiastic and blind supports of it, including very few here on this forum. I think that we should not be talking about whether or not the Catholic Church will overcome the child abuse scandal. We should be taking about when the "life support" will be cut off and when it will collapse. In many countries before the sex scandal has come to light, hundreds of churches had been sold for pennies and converted to condominium buildings and restaurants. Just look at some video clips shot during mass. There are few old people there. Almost no young ones, who should be the future of the church. And now, with the sex abuse cover-up being exposed, who is going to leave their children alone with priest or nuns? Who will be willing to become a priest, with the stigma of them being a pedophile or a homosexual? In some lands the church relies on the support of governments. How long will that continue, especially if votes are to be lost over that issue?I only feel sorry for the ones with good intentions, who have joined the ranks of priest and nuns, and the faithful. Many of them will face difficult choices soon, if they are not doing it now. Most of them have almost nowhere to go. Tue 23 Mar 2010 18:34:32 GMT+1 Morgan http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=98#comment1344 It will probably survive. It overcame some pretty bad stuff in the past. I'm amazed at how surprised people are though at the idea that the Church is corrupt. Everything is corrupt. @missproliberty: What about those who honestly did not know and are just as appalled and shocked by all of this as the rest of us? I've known a couple of priests whose faith have been really shaken by the whole thing. Tue 23 Mar 2010 17:19:19 GMT+1 in_the_uk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=98#comment1343 To 1335. I Love the Pope wrote:Good answer to the first point. But surely mysticism isnt in question here and neither is the faith in god. The question is based on the RCC which is an organisation. I am sure it will survive but it is tarred by the criminals and the support many are giving to the organisation by remaining as members. This calls into question the faith of these members as it cant be in god if they are not demanding justice. It appears that the faith in god has been perverted (in my opinion) to be a faith in the organisation. Your quest for knowledge is not limited to the organisation but if justice is to be done one of two things must happen-The church must give the criminals to justiceOrThe people on the quest for knowledge and faith in god should abandon the RCC and continue the pursuit without joining in the crime of supporting criminals. Wouldnt god see the defending of criminal actions as joining in with the crime?I also question the comment 'I will also emphasize my point that without God, people have no obligation to live morally' which is incorrect. It is more important to the species to live morally which is based on humanist standards (we all have those as experimentation has proven). Unfortunately the humanist standard of not killing each other and not murdering for small offences is easy to override in a religious person. A good man does good, a bad man does bad, but a good man will do bad for his religion.Finally the atheist governments are a good topic. Hitler was catholic and it is highly probable that his actions were justified by his religion (and he had catholic support). Stalin was brought up religious in an orthodox church which should have taught him his morals if we are to believe that religion makes you good. The question is how religion could have made an atheist. I cannot comment on Pol Pot without more research.All I am pointing out is that attrocities happen weather you are atheist or religious but you cant rally atheists to war by invoking non-religious beliefs. Yet the taliban, the US and many others invoke religion to boost their ranks with good people willing to die for what they have been told.The quest for knowledge is to ask questions. Blind faith will never lead to knowledge as no questions have been asked. It is by not asking why these criminals are protected by the church that people dont see that the heads of the church are supporting the crime. Tue 23 Mar 2010 17:17:54 GMT+1 SpiritoLibero http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=98#comment1342 I love the Pope.Faith and science are interesting selections.You remind me of Tony Blair who will go down in history for his belief and faith in two things and would be unable to provide proof of the existence of either.1, Weapons of Mass Destruction [WMD]2. GodYou also made this quote in an attempt to give your argument credence.'There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind’ by Antony Flew and Roy Abraham Varghese'.Can't you see that the author had one primary objective, to sell his book.Then you started on a fair point re the Romans. I agree that the time may have come when we do indeed need the Romans to civilise Britain again, and they can start by throwing priests and any members of the catholic church with more than a passing interest in pedophilia to the lions.If society allows the RCC to recover from this outrageous scandal, then the world will be much worse of for it. Tue 23 Mar 2010 17:02:47 GMT+1 I Love the Pope http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=98#comment1341 1330. At 2:54pm on 23 Mar 2010, buzios wrote: “The population rate where? In the Vatican? Can you substantiate this remarkable 'fact'?”Here’s a Catholic article on the increasing growth rate of the Catholic Church: http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=230181330. At 2:54pm on 23 Mar 2010, buzios wrote: The 'love' that tortures and burns people to death? The 'love' that causes huge numbers of deaths through AIDS. And to get back to the point here - the 'love' that abuses children? Atheists just don't have as many reasons to make others suffer.In the past, heretics and infidels were tortured and burned to death. That was the way all European governments, not only the Church, maintained societal homeostasis. It’s a different subject, but love incorporates punishment.On the ‘Intelligence Squared’ debate about whether the Catholic Church is a force for good, Ann Widdecombe presents sound statistical evidence that the incidence of AIDS actually increases when condoms are distributed. So the Catholic Church, by discouraging the use of condoms, is actually reducing the spread of AIDS.Most Catholics do not abuse children. Most Catholics love everyone as Jesus Christ commanded. Atheists are not obliged to follow this command of Jesus Christ. 1330. At 2:54pm on 23 Mar 2010, buzios wrote: “You are inconsistent - before you said "A man or woman without God just behaves like a savage animal", whereas now you only reserve the insult for 'modern' atheists.”I’m not inconsistent. In the past, atheism was academically excellent (e.g. that of Antony Flew), but over time, atheism has deteriorated into name-calling and insults (e.g. that of Richard Dawkins). So the further atheism has moved from theism, the more immoral and less academically stringent it has become i.e. the further from theism atheists drift, the more like savage animals they become. Tue 23 Mar 2010 16:51:49 GMT+1 in_the_uk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=98#comment1340 To 1331. I Love the Pope.Think we have a good descussion here. Certainly interesting and I admit unusual that I have found someone (not just religion) up for a good debate without name calling and taking offense.I dont accuse every roman catholic of being a pedophile. Quite the opposite I see them as victims just as much as the children. The few people who committed the crimes but in a number of countries to a number of children are the criminals. I do accuse people who protected these criminals as actively sharing in the crime (which does include the pope during his previous post). That to me shows criminals high up in the organisation which has shown no desire to give those criminals to justice which is not the harsh killing expected from the bible.My argument is that people supporting the catholic church, joining its ranks and worse of all fighting for the image of the church are making themselves part of the crime. While they are not pedophiles or protecting the pedophiles, they are defending the organisation which is protecting the pedophiles. This does not mean they must lose faith. This means they should all call for their organisation to remove these criminals and conspiritors, or remove themselves from association with the organisation.All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. So the defense of the organisation which is actively protecting criminals is to defend evil actions. People defending the church are not doing nothing. They are actively making themselves part of the crime. Their belief in a god is not evil but they have been taught not to question this belief which is the point of faith. This faith is being corrupted by the pope and conspiritors to keep his followers from rebelling and demanding justice.Do you defend the actions of these criminals because of your faith in god? Or in your faith in the organisation? There is no reason for the organisation not to give these criminals and accomplices to justice but yet that is the action of the organisation and your defending the organisation.As I cant speak to god and angels and know nobody of catholic faith who claims this ability I cannot debate this with you. My only reason to believe in science is its free availability to all and the production of evidence to defend its results. I have none of that in mysticism which was not taught at my catholic school and I had no catholic activities outside of that, and unfortunately my fiance has no experience in this either although she and her family are very active catholics (dont know how many generations). I will ask them when I get opportunity though.I (and my science studying fiance) are wondering where the philosophy is in the science (she is studying biochemistry). I accept science but I dont believe in philosophy unless its in a debate. Any solid fact can be proven in some way but philosophy can argue that fact is fiction using obfuscation by words. This is exactly what politicians do to say everything is great when things are obviously aweful. Philosophy will use science as a basis but more often than not it will lose itself in over complicated talk which often the speaker doesnt understand (especially when dealing with science).Factual science has proven many things. Gravity, evolution, even the age of the world has been based on observation and lengthy testing of people trying to prove others wrong. Because of this it is very difficult for a lie to be accepted as science. The age of the earth in the bible has been shown to be wrong. As has many events which are in some places still taken as fact (regardless of evidence).Somehow religion managed to deny the existence of any species before man until dinosours were proven to have existed. Science is not accepted on a book, or a leader, or even a democracy. Science is accepted as fact because the explanation of the facts is the only explanation which can stand scrutany. Religion has yet to be accepted as science because only an explanation is offered which not only doesnt stand against scrutany but is not based on facts but a belief it are right.This does not say god is impossible but it does cast doubt on the churches actions in protecting and harbouring criminals in the name of an improbable entity which, if good, wouldnt condone such actions. Tue 23 Mar 2010 16:48:27 GMT+1 trent http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=98#comment1339 At 2:44pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: "Wars are not waged in the name of atheism but they are in the name of religion. It is the animal pack of the religious which wages war not the atheist"So how do you explain Mao Zedong?Mao Zedong may have been raised in the Buddhist tradition, but he rejected all forms of religion for the atheistic socialism of Marxism-Leninism, which sees organised religion as the 'opiate of the masses', but he did not let that minor detail stop from waging a genocide against the Chinese in the early to mid 20th century killing millions in the process. It was the same story with Stalin, originally a religious man who was 'converted' to athiesm and who then proceeded to kill milions of his own people in an attempt to impose athiestic communism on them.What about the brutal athiestic dictatorship of North Korea whose brutality outstripped even the former Taliban ruled Afghanistan. Tue 23 Mar 2010 16:42:59 GMT+1 billy http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=97#comment1338 This post has been Removed Tue 23 Mar 2010 16:37:47 GMT+1 mac http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=97#comment1337 ref 1304If you say so. Tue 23 Mar 2010 16:35:29 GMT+1 SpiritoLibero http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=97#comment1336 Unfortunately the catholic church is not doing enough, never did, never will.If Jesus said 'suffer the little children', this cannot and must never be allowed to be translated by any caring human being into something along the lines of 'Little children must suffer'.We can only hope that those who knew and said nothing, and are willing to offer absolution to their congregation receive none them selves when their time comes and they suffer an afterlife of hell and damnation. Tue 23 Mar 2010 16:34:13 GMT+1 rcdson http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=97#comment1335 Can Catholic Church overcome child abuse scandals?not with out help from the civil court system. in this day and age, it is time for equal protection and/or prosecution under the law for all. it is time to end prejudicial legal protection for all religions. all religions should be held legally accountable in civil courts for their clergy's actions. Tue 23 Mar 2010 16:11:19 GMT+1 I Love the Pope http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=97#comment1334 1329. At 2:44pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “While your intentions are good you are defending criminal actions and the protecting of criminals by defending the organisation which allows it.”I’m only defending mysticism as a source of knowledge.1329. At 2:44pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “You still repeat that atheists act like animals but there is no evidence of this.”I did provide evidence. The new atheism has deteriorated from academic excellence into insults and name-calling. This is highlighted in the book ‘Answering the New Atheism: Dismantling Dawkins' Case Against God’ by Scott Hahn and Benjamin Wiker.I will also emphasize my point that without God, people have no obligation to live morally. 1329. At 2:44pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “Wars are not waged in the name of atheism but they are in the name of religion.”Communism and Marxism are atheist. Communist and Marxist governments are renowned for abusing human rights. You can judge whether atheism is more harmful than religion by comparing the number of people killed by atheist governments (like Stalin’s and Pol Pot’s) to the number of people killed by religious governments. But I would argue that it has nothing to do with atheism or religion. People kill each other over differences of opinion, whether those opinions are atheist, religious, or some other opinion. Tue 23 Mar 2010 16:08:43 GMT+1 biha http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=97#comment1333 The leaders of the Catholic Church should be put on trial so that the entire can be exposed. I quit the Catholic Church when I was nine years old. Even at that early age I knew that the Catholic Church and other religions were selling us a bill of empty goods. I have been an atheist ever since. Tue 23 Mar 2010 16:01:42 GMT+1 I Love the Pope http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=97#comment1332 1326. At 1:52pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “Why are you defending pedophillia by defending the church that defends pedophillia? What is your justification for not demanding justice and cleaning out the evils in the organisation you obviously love”I will expand on my response to this rather good point you make.This discussion is about whether the Catholic Church will survive the paedophilia scandals, particularly because the Catholic Church supposedly tried to hide instances of paedophilia to avoid scandal. Likewise, if scientists had hidden instances of paedophilia, you could ask, “will science survive the paedophilia scandals?”My argument is that mysticism, as defined by the Catholic Church, is a valid source of knowledge.The validity of knowledge is not undermined by a scandal like paedophilia. Scandals and knowledge are completely separate things. Mysticism and science, which are two branches of knowledge, can only be falsified or undermined by studying and challenging their epistemic and ontological axioms.The authority of the Catholic Church comes from mysticism, and that determines the Church’s survival. The authority of science comes from the scientific method, and that determines the survival of science.Neither the survival of science, nor the survival of mysticism, could be determined by paedophilia scandals. Tue 23 Mar 2010 15:34:27 GMT+1 Tibor http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=97#comment1331 Wonder what is happening with religions?Check the tendencies on google and/or elsewhere:Christianity 2,039 million 32% (dropping) Islam 1,226 million 19% (growing) The statistics speak for themselves... Tue 23 Mar 2010 15:28:49 GMT+1 I Love the Pope http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=97#comment1330 Thank you for continuing this discussion. I am pleased that you enjoyed one of my posts. I am enjoying your posts. I will address your most important points. 1326. At 1:52pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “So you tell me that science which is based on thousands of tests, solid proof by many scientists who are experts in the field and dedicated their lives to unraveling the mysteries is less factually based than people who believe a book which has much of its contents disproven and is exceptionally unlikely?”We’re talking about Catholics here. Catholics don’t derive their doctrines from the Bible alone. It’s Protestants that do that. Catholics also use mysticism. My post on mysticism was removed because it was off topic. But the training in mysticism is just as stringent and rule governed as the training in natural science. It requires transmutation of the Seven Capital Sins into the Seven Virtues. It’s the exact same procedure in every religion – asceticism and mortification. When it is accomplished, one can travel out of one’s body into Heaven and consort with God and angels. How to do this is explained in ‘The Interior Castle’ by St. Theresa of Avila, and ‘Ascent of Mount Carmel’ by St. John of the Cross.1326. At 1:52pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “Since physics relies on maths 100% and my fiance who is and enthusiastic study of the sciences (but somehow religious due entirely to upbringing) was confused at how you can have science so wrong. Science relies on fact to exist.”I am going to wind you up now, but scientists usually do not know anything about the epistemology of science. Only philosophers of science are trained in this. Yes physics relies on mathematics 100%, but ultimately mathematics is rationalism, and physics is empiricism. You cannot understand the axiomatic relationship between maths and physics by studying maths and physics. You have to study the relationship between rationalism and empiricism. 1326. At 1:52pm on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “Why are you defending pedophillia by defending the church that defends pedophillia?”Defending the Catholic Church can’t be equated with defending paedophilia. It is only a tiny fraction of Catholics that are paedophiles. You cannot generalize their behaviour to all Catholics – just as it is irrational to conclude that all swans are black when you’ve seen a handful of black swans. Most swans are white.The paedophiles, Catholics or not, are being brought to justice, and the Catholic Church will be better as a consequence.I am defending mysticism as a source of knowledge, which is as valid a source of knowledge as philosophy and science. The Catholic Church is the world’s biggest defender of mysticism. Mysticism is knowledge, not faith. If you call mysticism faith, then you have to call science faith as well. Both science and mysticism justify their claims to be knowledge by use of philosophy. Tue 23 Mar 2010 15:08:34 GMT+1 buzios http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=97#comment1329 1325. At 1:51pm on 23 Mar 2010, I Love the Pope wrote:1) "If the Catholic Church disappears (which it won’t – it’s growing faster than population growth rate) ......"The population rate where? In the Vatican? Can you substantiate this remarkable 'fact'?2) "The key difference between a Catholic and an atheist is that a Catholic is obliged to love everyone. Atheists do not have that obligation. Therefore atheism is infinitely more dangerous to the world than the Catholic Church."The 'love' that tortures and burns people to death? The 'love' that causes huge numbers of deaths through AIDS. And to get back to the point here - the 'love' that abuses children? Atheists just don't have as many reasons to make others suffer.3) "... they show that modern atheism has deteriorated from its former academic excellence into name calling and insults i.e. atheists have deteriorated into savage animals because they are not obliged to follow a moral code"You are inconsistent - before you said "A man or woman without God just behaves like a savage animal", whereas now you only reserve the insult for 'modern' atheists. Tue 23 Mar 2010 14:54:21 GMT+1 in_the_uk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=97#comment1328 To 1325. I Love the PopeWhile 99% (as you say) are good people working for the church and supporting the church are helping the organisation. The organisation (even the pope) has people commiting crime and protecting people from justice. So the 99% good people are supporting an organisation which is commiting crime and protecting criminals. Does this make the 99% good? No. Bad? Maybe. Ignorant of truth? Probably when you read the defense given on here by believers.Mother therisa told the poor she was helping that god made them suffer so they could feel hunger. Is this good action? Yet she is an example of good by the church. The pope who is an important dictator of morals for the church has been implicated in the covering up of these crimes. Is this good? The fact that the church praises people who provide examples of such horror shows the church to have problems. The supporters of this church should be calling to rectify this or stop supporting the organisation.While your intentions are good you are defending criminal actions and the protecting of criminals by defending the organisation which allows it. The church has helped many but it is always to push their religion onto others. The price of help is to be guilted into belief. This is another example of the religions praying on the weak.You still repeat that atheists act like animals but there is no evidence of this. It is a commonly held belief by those forced to believe in god to be better than the masses but has been proven wrong. Moral people are found in all. Wars are not waged in the name of atheism but they are in the name of religion. It is the animal pack of the religious which wages war not the atheist Tue 23 Mar 2010 14:44:54 GMT+1 richard bown http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=97#comment1327 "Is the Catholic Church doing enough to address these child abuse scandals? Does the Pope's letter go far enough? How has he handled the situation?"NoNoWith disturbing Judgement that seems not to make amends with or bring justice for those abused, but solely to minimise damage to his own organisation.Words cannot express how disgusted I am with the hypocrital sex obsessed church who will not even consider that their own middle ages based belief system has anything to do with these heinous crimes Tue 23 Mar 2010 14:27:38 GMT+1 Rosemary Alabaster http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=97#comment1326 Not without reform. The Church is built on Jesus the rock and a visitor to a Catholic Church could be forgiven for not understanding whether he is in Alice's wonderland or a Masonic Lodge. God's love (and God is love) can overcome anything, but only if we choose to go along with it. Mostly we don't. Cardinal Law should be obliged to go up the Scala Santa in Rome on his knees and sell his jewellery in the flea market, not be given the beautiful Basilica of St. Mary Major and a shower of golden rose petals. We don't get it, do we? Of course priests should be allowed to marry, and we should all understand that we are consecrated souls through baptism. Tue 23 Mar 2010 14:27:26 GMT+1 in_the_uk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=96#comment1325 1321. At 12:54pm on 23 Mar 2010, I Love the Pope wrote:1309. At 11:10am on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “That is based on science which is based on evidence which is based on fact. Not a belief”I am sorry to shatter your faith in science, but there is no such thing as a scientific fact. Philosophers of science have logically demonstrated that so called “scientific facts” are just blind faith.-------------------------------So you tell me that science which is based on thousands of tests, solid proof by many scientists who are experts in the field and dedicated their lives to unraveling the mysteries is less factually based than people who believe a book which has much of its contents disproven and is exceptionally unlikely?Since physics relies on maths 100% and my fiance who is and enthusiastic study of the sciences (but somehow religious due entirely to upbringing) was confused at how you can have science so wrong. Science relies on fact to exist. The bible selects the facts that support it but refuse to acknowledge solid fact which disproves it. Such narrow mindedness held the world back for many years and has caused a lot of suffering by good people just because of their belief. Why are you defending pedophillia by defending the church that defends pedophillia? What is your justification for not demanding justice and cleaning out the evils in the organisation you obviously love Tue 23 Mar 2010 13:52:55 GMT+1 I Love the Pope http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=96#comment1324 1318. At 12:29pm on 23 Mar 2010, buzios wrote: “The point is that all of your posts have carefully dodged the actual point of this discussion which relates to the behaviour of the Catholic church in relation to these allegations.”I haven’t dodged this point. I said that every institution has good and bad people in it, including the Catholic Church. Most people in the Catholic Church (probably 99.9%), including the Clergy – Priests, Monks and Nuns – are good. There are many Catholic charities, like Caritas and Cafod, who work tirelessly to help the poor and needy around the world. Catholics are constantly risking their lives to get food, medical aid, clothing, shelter, and education to the people that need it. Catholic organizations were amongst the first to help the people of Haiti recently after the earthquake there.Many atheists, as demonstrated in this forum’s posts, want the Catholic Church to be destroyed. Henry VIII destroyed the Catholic Church in Britain when he dissolved the monasteries. Consequently, vagrancy (poverty and homelessness) increased because the monasteries were the welfare system. If the Catholic Church disappears (which it won’t – it’s growing faster than population growth rate) millions of people around the world would suffer more and die as a consequence.The key difference between a Catholic and an atheist is that a Catholic is obliged to love everyone. Atheists do not have that obligation. Therefore atheism is infinitely more dangerous to the world than the Catholic Church.1318. At 12:29pm on 23 Mar 2010, buzios wrote: “Personally I find the arrongance that can say "A man or woman without God just behaves like a savage animal" quite offensive so perhaps your own name calling needs to be addressed also.”Well, that is how the new atheist movement behaves. In the book ‘Answering the New Atheism: Dismantling Dawkins' Case Against God’ by Scott Hahn and Benjamin Wiker, they show that modern atheism has deteriorated from its former academic excellence into name calling and insults i.e. atheists have deteriorated into savage animals because they are not obliged to follow a moral code. Tue 23 Mar 2010 13:51:36 GMT+1 Kinkazzo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=96#comment1323 Have you noticed that, since John Paul II, the Catholic Church has kept apologising for just about everything??I think they just have an all-pervasive guilty feeling that needs to be assuaged - and rightly so, looking back at her appalling past history since the Middle Ages.I think we should start taking bets: what'll be the next apology? Pius XII's collaboration with the Nazis? The elevation to "sanctity" of racist/murderous priests of the last 2-3 centuries, now appearing as "Saints" in the Roman calendar? The condemnation of condom usage, especially in overpopulated countries such as India, Pakistan, China, South America - not to speak of AIDS-ridden Africa? Keep'em coming!Well, although belatedly, they are finally reciting the "mea culpa"... But are they taking the appropriate measures to avoid recidivist relapses? Tue 23 Mar 2010 13:38:40 GMT+1 in_the_uk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=96#comment1322 1320. At 12:46pm on 23 Mar 2010, purplesky wrote:I would ask that the scientific community not disregard God(s) as potential enitity(ies) as it is unscientific to discount a theory without either proving that it is true or that an alternative theory is true. There is no evidence for dark energy (by an admission of a scientist on a BBC programme), other than that it makes the maths fit.As a religious science student (rare as we are), it seems that if science can invent this thing that they can't define or describe properly to help the universe around them make sense, why can't religious poeple?Having said that, religion is not a plausible excuse for allowing crimes too be committed, and if youtube (a supposedly non-country specific enitity) can block videos based on English laws, paedophiles should definately be penalised by their organisation (as a teacher or social worker would) AND the laws of the land.----------------------------Good argument for believing in god even in science. Dark energy is not seen as an entity to scientists but as a stop-gap to explain an inconsistency in their calculations related to what they can see happening. So in that case is god not a stop gap in olden day explination of existence? Which people should accept science as it disproves religion (which it is doing). Also they should accept modern law which protects children instead of defending abuse under old laws Tue 23 Mar 2010 13:34:05 GMT+1 in_the_uk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=96#comment1321 To 1307. I Love the PopeI want to thank you so much for your post. I mean no insult but me and my believing catholic fiance had a great laugh at it and I have never laughed so hard (or ever) at a religious comment so sincerely thank you.I think you have mis-understood your thinking while typing so please clear it up for me-Firstly, the catholic church has coined many insults and apart from the genocide and murder the harshest thing the church will do is label people. Witch, heretic and catholic (or protestant or, etc) are all labels from the church and used to distinguish the enemy and opposition (none of these are atheist created labels).Second, Dawkins fights the corner for atheists and I dont know any atheist embarrased that science (as I said before, truth) is pushed forward while religion tries to stop science unless it agrees with their holy books. The evidence is showing a tendency toward improved education and higher learning individuals is mostly atheism although some do have beliefs (that they cannot defend beyond brought up believing).To further this that all arguments against religion are based on science and factual evidence while arguments for religion (which are coincidentally against science) are based on the holy book.Thirdly, the childish name calling against catholisism is no more than the catholics childish and bigotted views against gay adoption and most subjects they disaprove of (we atheists disaprove of pedophillia).Fouthly, your comment about us acting like savages without god. It is fact that atheists and religious have similar morals. It is also fact that using religion to pervert the moral man, genocide is considered ok if done for your god but not anothers. This has been scientifically proven and isnt disputable no matter what the book tells you.And your final point about civilised romans is dependent on viewpoints. We were pagan before being murdered and slaughtered in the name of conquest by believers in a god. They thought they were doing gods good work in killing many to force them under religious law which offers no choice and if you dont believe, still must live by strict and bad laws based on a holy book and perverted to suit whatever evil action (tho shalt not kill dont mean kill british to force them to christianity).The version of bible you are following has been edited for many years to suit the rulers. The roman version is a perversion of the version before it to suit old roman beliefs (the trinity is a roman thing not christian). All versions are different to suit the readers and most followers are of a pick and mix version that suits them.Since religion is used to allow good people to justify evil actions it is not hard to see why the church protects child abusers in its ranks. Poor children abused by the faith they are indoctrinated in and wouldnt choose by rational thought. It is a good job the atheists are around to call for justice instead of backing the churches actions Tue 23 Mar 2010 13:09:43 GMT+1 I Love the Pope http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=96#comment1320 1309. At 11:10am on 23 Mar 2010, in_the_uk wrote: “That is based on science which is based on evidence which is based on fact. Not a belief”I am sorry to shatter your faith in science, but there is no such thing as a scientific fact. Philosophers of science have logically demonstrated that so called “scientific facts” are just blind faith.For a start, the Logical Positivists – the world’s leading defenders of scientific ‘truth’ – absolutely failed to identify a logical connection between a synthetic statement, and an analytic statement. A synthetic statement is a statement of empirical knowledge. An analytic statement is a statement of rational knowledge. Physics (empiricism) and mathematics (rationalism) have been at war with each other since Plato and Aristotle because they are absolutely axiomatically incompatible.Therefore, in science, there is a huge gaping chasm – a vacuum – between rationalism and empiricism. Until that vacuum is filled, there will never be such a thing as a scientific fact. Therefore science is faith, and therefore science, and atheism, are a religion.As an introduction to the philosophy of science, I recommend the audio/video university lecture series ‘Philosophy of Science’ by professor Jeffrey L. Kasser, from ‘The Teaching Company.’By the way, I respect you for considering both sides of the argument, and not having blind faith in atheism as most atheists have.And back to the topic, yes the Catholic Church will recover from the child abuse scandals because atheism is growing. Atheists that think will eventually embrace Catholicism because the academic arguments supporting Catholicism are stronger than those supporting atheism. Tue 23 Mar 2010 12:54:04 GMT+1 purplesky http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=96#comment1319 I would ask that the scientific community not disregard God(s) as potential enitity(ies) as it is unscientific to discount a theory without either proving that it is true or that an alternative theory is true. There is no evidence for dark energy (by an admission of a scientist on a BBC programme), other than that it makes the maths fit. As a religious science student (rare as we are), it seems that if science can invent this thing that they can't define or describe properly to help the universe around them make sense, why can't religious poeple?Having said that, religion is not a plausible excuse for allowing crimes too be committed, and if youtube (a supposedly non-country specific enitity) can block videos based on English laws, paedophiles should definately be penalised by their organisation (as a teacher or social worker would) AND the laws of the land. Tue 23 Mar 2010 12:46:50 GMT+1 trent http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=96#comment1318 It will be very difficult for the catholic church to overcome the paedophillia scandalJust like in a traditional conspiracy theory there are many people who have decided no matter how many investigations are done there will always be 'skeletons' in the church's closetFor example:1000. At 03:03am on 21 Mar 2010, uglyTruth wrote:NO IT CAN NOT!Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years in countries all around the world sexually abusing children, quite possible the largest child sex abuse ring in the history of the world. He fails to mention where and when the empirical study was done to back up his claim so I assume he was just rambling off the top of his head.I do not believe in the 'devil made me do it' argument, even in the biblical story of Adam and Eve, the devil did not make them eat the apple he merely put temptation into their minds.There will always be a God versus science debate, since God as the creator is said by believers to exist outside of creation, and is therefore invisible to the instruments which scientists use to examine and measure the created universe. Tue 23 Mar 2010 12:42:37 GMT+1 buzios http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=96#comment1317 1307. At 10:48am on 23 Mar 2010, I Love the Pope wrote:"Calling academic research ‘deranged ramblings’ merely demonstrates the poor education that most atheists have had."If I recall the deleted post correctly it discussed the various types of lust, the evils of orgasm, the nature of sin, saints and the like. To call this 'academic research' can only be valid in terms of research relating to beliefs and not anything that can in any way be proven.Personally I find the arrongance that can say "A man or woman without God just behaves like a savage animal" quite offensive so perhaps your own name calling needs to be addressed also.The point is that all of your posts have carefully dodged the actual point of this discussion which relates to the behaviour of the Catholic church in relation to these allegations. Tue 23 Mar 2010 12:29:44 GMT+1 ratbites http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=96#comment1316 this scandal has been going on for decades & the church knew about it & burried the issue. ireland is only the tip of the iceberg. this scandal extends beyond ireland to australia, canada & the usa.a formal apology will not do. reform will only work. allow the clergy to marry. the clergy can still equally serve & be married. Tue 23 Mar 2010 12:23:16 GMT+1 Ralphie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=96#comment1315 1307. At 10:48am on 23 Mar 2010, I Love the Pope wrote:A man or woman without God just behaves like a savage animal. That’s why the world needs religion. That’s why the world needs the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church will survive to meet this need.I am a man without a God. As the subject of this topic proves, I am not the one behaving like a savage animal. The CC is the problem, not the solution. Tue 23 Mar 2010 12:20:46 GMT+1 Ralphie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=96#comment1314 1300. At 09:27am on 23 Mar 2010, I am so glad I am a Christian and not an atheist. Most atheists are the most insulting, ill-mannered and ignorant people I ever encounter. Between two-faced, hypocritical believers (in any faith) and in-your face atheists, I am glad I am neither. Tue 23 Mar 2010 12:14:50 GMT+1 Ralphie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=96#comment1313 1302. At 09:52am on 23 Mar 2010, mac wrote:"Ref 851Surely a man who has sex with a boy is homosexual and a paedophile?"Do you insist on calling rapists heterosexuals as well? Tue 23 Mar 2010 12:12:54 GMT+1 in_the_uk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=96#comment1312 1302. At 09:52am on 23 Mar 2010, mac wrote:Ref 851Surely a man who has sex with a boy is homosexual and a paedophile?---------------------------------And surely the crime is the abuse of children which occured, not just of boys. Whatever sexual orientation of the abuser the crime is abuse. Or does your faith disagree? No atheist is having such a moral dilemma, the problem is obviously abuse of children. Why are you blaming only the homosexual abusers? Are you condoning the abuse if it is not homosexual? Tue 23 Mar 2010 11:54:43 GMT+1 Alex http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=95#comment1311 Time for these washed out institutions to be forgotten ! Were in the 21st century we should have no need to lean on the crutch that is 'god'. Wake up people deal in facts !! Tue 23 Mar 2010 11:42:49 GMT+1 paulsthewoodgnome http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=95#comment1310 apologies wont make any difference. peodophiles should be jailed and the catholic church should aid their prosecution. then and only then will the church be able to hold its head up again. its the same with islam. its all very well fo everyone to keep telling us that islam is a peaceeful religion but we need to see that it is because as hard as i want to i can see peodophile on on ehand and murderers on the other. it may be time to get druidic, i look good in a sheet Tue 23 Mar 2010 11:20:38 GMT+1 Ralphie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=95#comment1309 This post has been Removed Tue 23 Mar 2010 11:12:08 GMT+1 in_the_uk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=95#comment1308 1287. At 01:36am on 23 Mar 2010, I Love the Pope wrote:The Catholic Church will recover. But what I have noticed about most of the anti-Catholic posts in this forum is that they are by claimed atheists.Atheism needs to be rigorously and persistently challenged. The academic arguments against atheism, and in support of theism, are much stronger than the arguments in support of atheism.--------------------------------------I am currently reading Dawkins book which has mentioned most of my previous beliefs and has pointed out far more than I descovered alone. My starting belief of agnostic borderline atheist is that I accept everyone has their own beliefs and nobody has the right to force their beliefs on another. That is why I am not complete atheist. On the same line that religion is never accepted by the free thinking. You are either forced into religion as a child or when you are emotionally vulnrable a sick and twisted person will pervert your emotions to push their faith (I have witnessed it and its been tried on me).With freedom of choice I believe that religions couldnt exist as they are and could not commit the crimes they have over the many years. I am sure the leaders of faiths would argue against this but they are too scared to try it (and brainwash helpless kids, bordering on child abuse). Extremists crashing planes into buildings and suicide bombers is purely down to religion. Moderate religion promotes faith without question, it takes very little to then convince them of the next step.I went to a catholic school where my questions of the evil of god and his followers could not be answered. No catholic has managed to yet either and often avoid the topic or take it as a personal attack they wont respond to. In the end the religion promotes a system of ask no questions but do as your told which has been abused for so many years and caused incredible suffering yet somehow still have a following. How do good people justify evil? It is justified by an unweivering belief that they are doing good for an unproven being.I am tempted to buy one of those books you mentioned (the response to Dawkin) and I may. The problem is these books are based on religion which is based on faith which cant be based on facts (the whole point of faith and the argument used by catholics for science not finding god yet). Religion is not allowed to be questioned and religious people jump to support science only when science agrees with them. Unfortunately the religions wont back science that proves them wrong and wont adapt their beliefs to suit the facts (the bible still stands but yet a lot of old testement is wrong of very improbable). Religion starts with a result and changes the evidence to suit the result (and removing other evidence). The only argument for god is that he exists due to belief in him and can somehow avoid giving us any evidence of existence. No other realistic argument exists to fight gods corner. The pure unquestioning faith required for belief in god allows evil to be done in its name as people are not allowed to think and question.On the other hand all arguments against religion are based on fact and evidence called science (which is the basis for atheism but they take it a step further that god has no chance of reality). Science is not always right and can change when proven wrong and everyone is allowed to prove science wrong (it is welcomed). Science is truth because when a flaw of science is found it is corrected. Science takes the evidence to find the result and accepts critisism from all with evidence. The point is that religious peoples argument when fighting fact and truth is that they believe (in god) their old book is right because it says so and they are not allowed to question.I may get one of those books you mentioned but to correct your statement-The academic arguments against atheism, and in support of theism, are much weaker than the arguments in support of atheism.That is based on science which is based on evidence which is based on fact. Not a belief Tue 23 Mar 2010 11:10:29 GMT+1 sevenskies http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=95#comment1307 Not only the Irish clergy, child abuse is common in most of the Roman Catholic Churchs all over the world. The problem lies with the "Celibacy Law". Divorce was the first breakthrough regarding the strict Catholic principles, why not the marriage of the Clergy ? Tue 23 Mar 2010 11:04:02 GMT+1 I Love the Pope http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=95#comment1306 1300. At 09:27am on 23 Mar 2010, buzios wrote: “I suspect that the deranged ramblings of 1168 were removed because they were totally off topic.”I am so glad I am a Christian and not an atheist. Most atheists are the most insulting, ill-mannered and ignorant people I ever encounter. Calling academic research ‘deranged ramblings’ merely demonstrates the poor education that most atheists have had. This problem is answered in the book ‘Answering the New Atheism: Dismantling Dawkins' Case Against God’, by Scott Hahn, and Benjamin Wiker.These academics highlight that modern atheism has stopped using reason and logic, and instead turned to name calling and insults. They explain that even leading academic atheists are embarrassed by this approach taken by modern atheists, particularly Richard Dawkins.Judging by the childish name calling by atheists in this forum, we need institutions like the Catholic Church to instil manners and academic stringency into these people.A man or woman without God just behaves like a savage animal. That’s why the world needs religion. That’s why the world needs the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church will survive to meet this need.The Romans civilised Britain when we were barbarians. It looks like the Romans will need to civilize Britain again. Tue 23 Mar 2010 10:48:56 GMT+1 Artur Freitas http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=95#comment1305 This post has been Removed Tue 23 Mar 2010 10:43:42 GMT+1 in_the_uk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=95#comment1304 1282. At 10:28pm on 22 Mar 2010, ktfutp wrote:Its interesting how popular this topic is - it seems to bring out the 'im not one of them' mob mentality. God bless the Pope and the one true church - each and every negative on here makes me more determined to go to my church.---------------------------------Thats fine. I noticed your wording 'the one true church' which to me suggests that you have been taught from an early age that evidence and truth cannot compare with blind faith and the narrow view. The fact is that mobs protect their own which the church is doing by protecting these criminals from justice. As for negative comments, your 'the one true church' is a directly offensive comment to many religions even christian ones. There is more evidence that all the churches are based on lies but you assume yours is the correct way without any proof and only the say so of this mob. I recommend Richard Dawkins book for you, not to change your beliefs (to each his own) but for you to understand how aggressive you appear over only an unsubstantiated belief.Or it could be the rebel mentality to fight all evidence to live in your ideal, if non-existent utopia.If you were to be looking as a third party at your comments which have been threatening and aggressive against atheists and others, and the comments of atheists and others calling for justice. Would you side with you or not? I bet you would side with you, so make 1 further change. Apply your comments as if it was someone defending the muslim faith or hindu, etc. I bet you side with the atheist and others who want justice which the RCC organisation is trying so hard to prevent Tue 23 Mar 2010 10:35:58 GMT+1 buzios http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=95#comment1303 1302. At 09:52am on 23 Mar 2010, mac wrote:"Ref 851Surely a man who has sex with a boy is homosexual and a paedophile?"This is a bit like saying that a man that has sex with a ram is both homosexual and bestial. Tue 23 Mar 2010 10:06:22 GMT+1 androstempest http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=95#comment1302 1301. At 09:46am on 23 Mar 2010, 3rensho wrote:The priests that allegedly committed the crimes must be tried in a court of law and punished according to criminal law if found guilty. A member of the clergy is not above the law as the Catholic church seems to feel. Totally agree, this is the crux of my arguments from the beginning. It should not be a privilege for the clergy to escape justice, whether it be child abuse, perverting the course of justice, defying employment law or fraud. Though they "serve god" they are still men, and therefore subject to Earthly laws.Who knows what atrocities might be committed if we were to allow any church to openly defy the law? Tue 23 Mar 2010 10:01:18 GMT+1 mac http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=95#comment1301 Ref 851Surely a man who has sex with a boy is homosexual and a paedophile? Tue 23 Mar 2010 09:52:21 GMT+1 3rensho http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=95#comment1300 The priests that allegedly committed the crimes must be tried in a court of law and punished according to criminal law if found guilty. A member of the clergy is not above the law as the Catholic church seems to feel. Tue 23 Mar 2010 09:46:13 GMT+1 buzios http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=95#comment1299 1295. At 08:56am on 23 Mar 2010, jo wrote:"The comment 1168 I Love Pope was removed on curios bases.It is strange that such a scholarly writing was removed".I suspect that the deranged ramblings of 1168 were removed because they were totally off topic. Tue 23 Mar 2010 09:27:54 GMT+1 androstempest http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=95#comment1298 1295. At 08:56am on 23 Mar 2010, jo wrote:The comment 1168 I Love Pope was removed on curios bases.It is strange that such a scholarly writing was removed. it isn't curious at all, his post was off topic. I appreciate to someone with deep religious conviction addressing the wave of anti-catholic vitriol shown on the BBC at the moment is tempting, but it needs to be balanced with some form of answer to the question. You can't just go off on a complete tangent and expect other members or more especially the Moderators, to put up with it.I'm annoyed that three of my posts have been removed for what I see as invalid reasons, but I accept I need to follow the rules here if I'm to continue contributing and will "mind my p's and q's" in future. ****back on topic. I also appreciate from what I'm reading that many people feel this general conversation is acting as if the Catholic church is riddled with vise and corruption and that the rest of the world is perfect. I think you only need to read the front page of any recent newspaper to know that just about EVERY institution has it's share of vise and corruption. From free trips for MP's to nursery nurses sending video phone messages of themselves abusing children, the whole world is corrupt.I strongly believe an institution such as the Catholic Church which has survived for 2,000 years in one form or another is going to weather this storm. Whether it should or not I'm not so sure. I don't subscribe to the calls to ban ALL religion, despite agreeing with certain people that it is the source of most hate and discord in the modern world. I also strongly believe that the law of man needs to take presidents over the law of god in such matters of violence and abuse, that it is not possible to say you are doing "god's work" as you beat someone with a stick or violate them sexually. As any citizen of the UK should expect to face a judge for such crimes, every monk, nun, bishop and priest should too, they should not be placed above other men, or above the law when it comes to such matters.They will survive, but their role needs to change from one of control, to guidance. To become our conscience and moral compass rather than the source of our prejudices. But more importantly the church, any church, needs to set an example. If they cannot practice what they preach, they should not be preaching in the first place. Tue 23 Mar 2010 09:22:57 GMT+1 The Ghosts of John Galt http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=94#comment1297 1287. At 01:36am on 23 Mar 2010, I Love the Pope wrote:///Atheism needs to be rigorously and persistently challenged. The academic arguments against atheism, and in support of theism, are much stronger than the arguments in support of atheism.I challenge atheists to start thinking about the academic arguments for and against atheism and theism///I challenge any religious 'believer' to provide ONE rational reasoned argument to convince me of theism. Just ONE rational reasoned argument that makes NO reference to the Bible, or 'what God told me' or any 'academic' arguments presented by various deluded preachers of the doctrine of sacrifice. I will go and get baptised tomorrow if one person can convince me with a concrete argument produced from their OWN rational volition, without any reference to the argument of a third party - Go on use you own mind to convince me - rather than someone else's! Bet a 'believer' cannot achieve that!And what ever you believe a paedophile is a paedophile and should be facing persecution in a real criminal court - God's got nothing to do with real justice in the real world. Tue 23 Mar 2010 09:04:07 GMT+1 kev http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=94#comment1296 The problem is that Ratzinger has not apologised for covering up / hiding the abuse nor has he promised to ensure that in future children's welfare would take precedence over the reputation of the church. Tue 23 Mar 2010 09:02:12 GMT+1 Terry Rigby http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=94#comment1295 At 11:25am on 18 Mar 2010, Pea Eye wrote:I suspect that predatory paedophiles have actively targeting the priesthood because it was easy to get in, there was no screening process and it would give them access to children.Some of them may even have been encouraged to take up the priesthood by the stories about the church covering up abuse and protecting the abusers.Are you aware that Catholic priests have to study for up to 8 years before being ordained. Easy to get in?Terry RigbyHolland Tue 23 Mar 2010 09:00:29 GMT+1 jo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=94#comment1294 The comment 1168 I Love Pope was removed on curios bases.It is strange that such a scholarly writing was removed.My point is that as stated in the writing the Catholic Church in all its glory(the glory is diminishing or not is to be decided by the Will of the Father, Eternal, not the pedophile earthly fathers/priests) was practicing the teachings of Jesus Christ in monastic and contemplative ways though with aberrations in certain cases.Even we hear of Popes who fathered children in public.But that was a passing time or an evolving phase in the Catholicism.Protestant fathers and church people do lead a devout life, dedicated to God,sometimes surpassing the qualities of famous catholic priests.Again that is not the issue.The issue is how to purge the Church from its infidels and scoundrels who have turned against God and the institution of the Church.The internal and external enemies are to be weeded out of the church just as the Father separates the good from the evil at the time of Last Judgment.The weapon the the Church is the weapon of prayer and modifying the seminary training practices so that only good and sincere enter into the Holy Order. Tue 23 Mar 2010 08:56:15 GMT+1 Dave Brown http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=94#comment1293 Apologised? Ah, well that's ok then...no harm done. Tue 23 Mar 2010 08:53:41 GMT+1 Tibor http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=94#comment1292 I love the Pope wrote:"...The world needs more Saints, and the Catholic Church creates them, and therefore the world needs the Catholic Church. Very few organizations actually work to create Saints..." Production of "Saints" should be a lucrative business for some, but not for the wider public unfortunately. The times of fairy tales are over. Living in the fog of myth has created the opportunity for those holy criminals to destroy lifes of those subjects who could not solve the conflict between morality and reality.Consider to relocate Vatican to the Moon with the production of Saints, taking their money concerned god with them too. Tue 23 Mar 2010 08:35:12 GMT+1 Display name http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=94#comment1291 An organisation whose head was a member of the Hitler Youth;Whose senior management deliberately and actively, covered up the illegal and immoral acts of its juniors;Whose juniors, some of whom committed these now-known illegal and immoral acts, are now in the senior management of the organisation.Which actively discriminates against women attaining any active role in its management structure;Which actively discriminates against homosexuals.This organisation now lectures our Government on decisions on morality, abortion and homosexuality.I think not!! Tue 23 Mar 2010 08:30:32 GMT+1 Neil Probert http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=94#comment1290 To those accusing others of 'catholic bashing'; how do you expect people to react when the self-appointed defenders of morality go to great lengths to shelter paedophiles from the law and get children to sign gagging orders? The fact that it was catholic priests is irrelevant; a paedophile is a paedophile; no exceptions. Tue 23 Mar 2010 08:27:23 GMT+1 Daisy Chained http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=94#comment1289 In my opinion the first two questions, "is the Church doing enough" and "does the letter go far enough" can only be answered by victims and their families. However, the question about how the Pope has handled this situation must reflect what has gone before as well as what comes now.I have always believed that religion must reside in the heart for it to mean something to the believer. It is clear for far too many Catholic priests that what is in their hearts is neither true nor sincere. The Pope must bear a huge responsibility for that simple fact. Tue 23 Mar 2010 08:17:54 GMT+1 Anglobert http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=94#comment1288 A moral Godless atheist man is a finer human being than than an immoral, befrocked, ordained "man of God".What kind of a "kick" have some priests enjoyed when listening to the most personal admissions of "sin" by those submitting themselves in the confessional box. I do recall, before I escaped from that nonsense, that the priest would ask for details and frequency of an admission of, for instance, using contraception, a "sin" in the Catholic Church.Sorry, Pope Benedict. You are living in the distant mystical past. Tue 23 Mar 2010 02:03:25 GMT+1 Bernard Matthews http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=94#comment1287 This post has been Removed Tue 23 Mar 2010 01:53:16 GMT+1 I Love the Pope http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=94#comment1286 The Catholic Church will recover. But what I have noticed about most of the anti-Catholic posts in this forum is that they are by claimed atheists.Atheism needs to be rigorously and persistently challenged. The academic arguments against atheism, and in support of theism, are much stronger than the arguments in support of atheism.If atheists read the sound academic arguments, which show atheism to be false, then those atheists will convert to the Catholic Church. The Church will then thrive and survive.Some good academic books which clearly show why atheism is logically false, and theism is true, include the following:- A Catholic Replies to Professor Dawkins by Thomas Crean- Answering the New Atheism: Dismantling Dawkins' Case Against God, by Scott Hahn, and Benjamin Wiker - Reasons to Believe: How to Understand, Explain and Defend the Catholic Faith by Scott Hahn C’mon you atheists, I dare you to read these books. If you do read them, and think about them, you will probably become Catholic.The problem with atheists, as highlighted in these books, is that most atheists shy away from thought and reasoned argument. Atheists really need to start thinking more.I challenge atheists to start thinking about the academic arguments for and against atheism and theism. Antony Flew, one of the world’s leading academic atheists studied, as his career, the arguments for and against atheism and theism all his life. He finally concluded that the arguments supporting theism, and falsifying atheism, are stronger. You can read this story in his book: ‘There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind’ by Antony Flew and Roy Abraham Varghese Tue 23 Mar 2010 01:36:02 GMT+1 RNG13428647 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=94#comment1285 It seems anti-theist position is dominant here. It's same almost everywhere else I go in the country. So why are religous institutions able to function? Why don't you people sign the petitions and open letters asking for religous preference to be removed. Why do our kids have to sit through "collective worship broadly Christian in nature" every morning at school?The people of Britain favour secular governance yet for some strange reason we "tolerate" religion. The Abrahamic faiths are the most devisive and morally bankrupt lifestyle choices known to man and we just let their supporters spread lies and ignorance without challenging it.Stand up, challenge myth, declare yourself as atheist, lobby the government to acknowledge atheism as an implicit religous position... You are not Christian by default. We are all born atheist. Tue 23 Mar 2010 00:00:13 GMT+1 bored_cynic http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=93#comment1284 Priestly formation in the Roman church is one of the most character-deforming processes available outside Abu Ghraib.I was educated by Catholic clergymen and women, and what I remember most was their loneliness and frustration. Some of them handled it well, some badly, but it was always there. Some of them had joined to try and suppress their desires (even at 11 years old, we could spot them and make sure we were never alone with them), some had been forced into it by their families (damn, they could hit) and some had a true vocation (I would have followed my old headmaster to hell and back).But all of them were distorted, incomplete, unhappy. Put in harm's way by a ludicrous medieval dictatorship, and made to look ridiculous in a world that has left them behind. Mon 22 Mar 2010 23:55:42 GMT+1 jimmaguire http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=93#comment1283 Child abuse will never be defeated in the catholic church, there must be something wrong with someone who signs up to a life of celibacy at any age but more so at an early age when they don't really understand what they are getting into, but its not just the catholic church it seems all religions seem to attract more of their fare share of deviants to the priesthood Mon 22 Mar 2010 23:24:21 GMT+1 avid_dg http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=93#comment1282 I'm not a member of the roman catholic church but I feel really grieved for all the good men and women that have devoted their lives to purity and have lived lives of simplicity and innocence for the sake of an ideal only to find themselves caught up in this satanic eruption. The priests and others who abused their position and broke their vows stand condemned for all eternity - better for them to be cast into the sea with millstones tied round their necks. The bishops who failed to hand them over to the civil authorities acted as everyone did a few years ago. There were secular children's homes where abusers were routinely asked to leave quietly. It happened at my own public school in about 1968 - an assistant housemaster was found to be perverting young boys and kicked out with no fuss and certainly no police involvement. It was a different world - the world as it had been for 2 million years until the rules changed quite suddenly in the space of two or three decades at most. With the benefit of hindsight we all accepted what should never have been accepted. In the same way slavery was accepted as natural and inevitable until a total turnaround of attitudes was achieved after decades and decades of campaigning. One cannot now imagine how the prosperous Liverpool merchants could have been accepted in polite society and held sway over the political system for as long as they did. It is very good that the catholic church will now be cleansed of this vile corruption. But we, as a species, have a long way to go. One day, I believe, our descendants will look back in horror and bewilderment at the way we enslave and eat animals, but that is another debate for another day. Mon 22 Mar 2010 22:39:22 GMT+1 ktfutp http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=93#comment1281 Its interesting how popular this topic is - it seems to bring out the 'im not one of them' mob mentality. God bless the Pope and the one true church - each and every negative on here makes me more determined to go to my church. Mon 22 Mar 2010 22:28:34 GMT+1 Richard Ralph Roehl http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=93#comment1280 Can the Catholic church overcome constant allegations of sexual abuse of children? Only when the church abandons the foolish and outdated dogma of sexual abstinence and celebacy of priests and nuns. Going against the dictates of nature is not only bizarre, but insane. Mon 22 Mar 2010 22:04:02 GMT+1 Ralphie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=93#comment1279 501. At 08:28am on 19 Mar 2010, mac wrote:When the Church gets rid of its homosexual priests it will have solved its problems. I bet paedophiles all over the world rub their hands reading this kind of comment. They know they will be able to pursue their perversions undetected whilst innocent priests get blamed for their sins. I don't even want to start summing up the amount of problems that would get solved if society got rid of people like mac. Mon 22 Mar 2010 21:59:36 GMT+1 Ralphie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=93#comment1278 1270. At 8:02pm on 22 Mar 2010, I Love the Pope wrote:Real Catholics never harm anyone, but follow Christ’s teaching to love one’s neighbour as one’s self.I think the description of religion as santa claus for grown ups was inspired by this kind of post. Catholics (and other religions) apply their own interpretations of brotherly love etc. indiscriminately. I have experienced times of need, but the "help" offered by one christian family was conditional, i.e. they wouldn't give me the help I needed, they tried to take advantage of my moment of desperation to force their brand of "help" and "love" upon me. As I refused this, I was rejected. I won't go into detail, but the help I requested was genuine and not drug/alcohole etc related. I found myself in a situation many people can find themselves in for reasons beyond their control. I have since been in a position where I have been asked to help other people, and I gave them that help, without any condition. I have never forgotten that experience however, as it helped me recognise the hypocrisy and selfish motivation behind the facade. I am highly suspicious of "good christians", I only believe in "good humans". The paedophilia is only symptom. The fertile soil in which it grows is the real problem. Mon 22 Mar 2010 21:22:17 GMT+1 AT http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=93#comment1277 The pope condemns homosexuals and transsexuals but doesn't condemn pedophilic priests, that's fairness for you. Mon 22 Mar 2010 20:49:09 GMT+1 patrick murdock http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=93#comment1276 The people of Ireland cannot even prosecute the people who pushed the country into economic failure for the next fifty years and stripped the banks of thier wealth.They are not likley to go afer priests Mon 22 Mar 2010 20:48:25 GMT+1 Phil http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=93#comment1275 until celibacy is thrown out as a condition of being a catholic priest, they will keep abusing Mon 22 Mar 2010 20:35:10 GMT+1 Seqenenre http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=93#comment1274 Sorry...but isn't the crux of this that asking men to be celibate is bound to make some of them go this way?? Mon 22 Mar 2010 20:28:20 GMT+1 Robert Sinclair Shand http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=93#comment1273 So long as the Pope and others within the Catholic Church hierarchy, and our politicians believe that a simple apology is the answer to any form of evil criminality there will never be any steps taken by the judiciary to bring paedophiles and other criminals within society (let along the Catholic Church), to summary justice. Mon 22 Mar 2010 20:27:25 GMT+1 Seataltea http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=93#comment1272 The concept that religious leaders are above the law is repugnant. The secrets of the confessional as a way to avoid the law is also wrong. The church has got to realise that a letter from an old man will not be sufficient to right the wrongs of decades of illegal behaviour by his subordinates. Mon 22 Mar 2010 20:25:43 GMT+1 patrick murdock http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=93#comment1271 The culture that the continued existance of the church is more important than the members it serves is the root of the problems the church faces.Remember this institution is 2,000 years old and has stood up to argubalby the greatest changes civilisation has ever faced and still survived and it will do so again.As well as tolerating this evil, remember the church has has sheltered all sorts of wrong doers and alligned itself with dispicable regimes such as crusaders, racists, facists etc. Even the alleged war criminals Tony Blair and George Bush met the pope on a personal basis. The church will position itself to survive doing what ever it takes but still keeping its culture rigid through out this.Personally I see priests as selfish people when they talk about thier calling being the reason for thier vocation. I see men living in a big house, houskeeper being fed, watered and educated, stress free and living of the generosity of thier community. It is a nice life and frankly on I shoud have considered myself. I think it is fair to say this sort of life appeals to particular characters, it has to and I will life it to experts to debate the personality make up the people Roman Catholicism attracts.The question is are these the right people for the church, I would argue that men who want to take wives and vocationally offer them selves to their flock should be invited to join. The experience of being a father, making a home, husband, lover etc their wives challenging them and making them better people is far more of a positive trait that this rubbish about wanting to devote love equally to thier flock meaning marriage is a no no. The calibre of candidate for the preisthood if marriage was allowed would be far higher than the loner social intraverts the priesthood currently attracts.A load of men living in a big house doing what they like with no female influences in thier lives with sexual desires burning within and no one to share these desirs with will lead somewhere. Are we really suprised it leads to the most vunderable, children. IF you think about it, it even happens with men in prison where the pretty boy becomes a sexual plaything for the prisoners or the use of prostitutes to keep soldiers focusd. Common sense says celabacy has to go, we just need medical research to prove it.Personally I always found married clergy far more approachable than single priests. Mon 22 Mar 2010 20:16:11 GMT+1 ukexpat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=92#comment1270 I think there is a case to be made here that the Church is guilty of a criminal conspiracy to cover up these crimes. The Irish authorities should (but never will) charge all those with conspiracy, just as in the US RICO charges have been filed against some dioceses. Mon 22 Mar 2010 20:07:18 GMT+1 I Love the Pope http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=92#comment1269 Yes, of course the Catholic Church will recover.Most Catholics are good people, including the Clergy. There are good and bad people in every institution. It is only a very tiny minority of Catholic Clergy that have abused children.Real Catholics never harm anyone, but follow Christ’s teaching to love one’s neighbour as one’s self. There are many Catholic charities like Caritas and Cafod, which are always working tirelessly to help the poor and needy.The Catholic Church, throughout history, has produced many Saints. Saints are people who imitate the life of Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church will produce more Saints, and they will heal the Church.The world needs more Saints, and the Catholic Church creates them, and therefore the world needs the Catholic Church. Very few organizations actually work to create Saints. As an introduction to the Catholic Saints, and why they are so important, I recommend ‘The Oxford Dictionary of Saints.’ Mon 22 Mar 2010 20:02:55 GMT+1 intbel http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=92#comment1268 "Does the Pope's letter go far enough?"It doesn't.The pope has not admitted his (well documented) major part in the cover-up.The Pope himself should be facing criminal charges for aiding and abbetting the abuse of children, for witholding evidence and for obstructing the legal processes of many countries.The facts are out there yet they are ignored by those who have the means to take legal action against this man.One question: "Why?" Mon 22 Mar 2010 19:59:00 GMT+1 mary gravitt http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=92#comment1267 Pope Benedict is more interested saying the Church than in the welfare of its members, children or not. Mon 22 Mar 2010 19:18:23 GMT+1 neilscot http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/haveyoursay/2010/03/can_catholic_church_overcome_c.html?page=92#comment1266 there are rotten apples throughout society but if you enforce an unnatural discipline and deny male priests the right to enjoy normal physical relations with adults (of either sex), the risk of them turning to "the next best alternative" ie children, must be high.That is not the real scandal tho. The real scandal is the cover up from the highest levels of the Catholic Church who clearly believed, and still believe, that the institution of the church is more important than the lives of individuals, many of them suffering for the rest of their lives as a result. The Catholic Church has not accepted its real culpability. If it had, the current head of the Church in Ireland, who has admitted being party to forcing children to swear never to reveal abuse, would have fallen on his metaphorical sword. Mon 22 Mar 2010 19:02:52 GMT+1