Comments for http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html en-gb 30 Fri 25 Jul 2014 07:30:35 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html Jan_Keeskop http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=98#comment80 DurstigerMann:So if it is an ever closer union between the people of Europe, why was I, along with hundreds of millions of Europeans, not allowed to vote on it?regarding post 64, tens of millions of Germans were not allowed to vote on it because the German constitution does not allow a referendum on the issue for the German people to have been able to do so. (If I remember correctly, referenda are constitutionally allowed there only for deciding state borders, e.g. whether two or more existing states can be combined to form a single new state.) Tens of millions of British were not allowed to vote on it because Parliament did not authorise a binding referendum for them to do so. Most of the other EU countries probably fall into one of these two categories: either their constitution does not allow it, or their legislature did not authorise it.The blame for this particular issue falls squarely at the national level, not at the EU level. To decide things by referendum, Germans would need to elect enough representatives who would vote for a constitutional amendment to permit general referenda; the British would need to elect a Parliament that would authorise binding referenda; &c. Wed 09 Feb 2011 17:12:52 GMT+1 MacTurk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=97#comment79 powermeerkat(no 57) wrote "That's what other appeasing peacniks were saying in 1938 about III Reich's military capability" There is no comparison between the nuclear arsenal of Israel and the POTENTIAL Iranian bomb. Israel is known to have its own mini-triad, comprising Dolphin Class submarines fitted with cruise missiles, Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles(IRBMs), and various aircraft launched systems. They have at least 200 atomic warheads. Neither is the Kim family comparable to Mr A. Hitler.Your claim that these two regimes are somehow going to commit suicide AND launch the whole world into a nuclear holocaust is, I repeat, simply a form of war porn.champagne_charlie(no 59) wrote"#48 macturk;"Best estimate for Iran to enough highly enriched U325 to turn into a bomb or warhead(note; ONE bomb/warhead) is between three and eight years."Yeah you're right - and when they it explodes over Tel Aviv they'll have none. The people of Tel Aviv will be ecstatic with that news."North Korea may - repeat MAY - have one or two viable warheads."Cool, just enough to destroy Seoul. And if not, the hundreds of artillery pieces will finish the job. But at least the people of Seoul will be encouraged by knowing that Pyongyang MAY have no nukes left".You are, first, assuming that the people who run Iran are;a) Utterly irrational and stupid.b) Suicidal.They are neither. They know very well that any strike on Tel Aviv would result in untold destruction and loss of Iranian life, and probably(closer to their hearts) their removal from power. So why would they do it? Their senior clergy have also gone on record as saying that any first use of nuclear weapons is not to be part of their policy, as it is contrary to their interpretation of Shia Islam. Second, Israel has a fairly capable Anti-Ballistic Missile(ABM) system. Third, Israel in defence terms is basically joined at the hip to the USA, and the ruling group in Iran know this very, very well.Re the Koreas, the hundreds of artillery pieces, both tube and rocket, within range of Seoul are, sadly, perfectly capable of flattening the South Korean capital without any need for nuclear assistance. So, again I have to ask, why would they commit suicide? The people in power in North Korea are well aware that the South's armed forces are perfectly capable of destroying theirs without American assistance. With American assistance, and without nuclear weapons, it is simply a question of how many times you want the rubble of Pyongyang to bounce. powermeerkat(no 61) wrote ""Best estimate for Iran to enough highly enriched U325.." There's not even the worst estimate available.For there's no such thing as Uranium-325.[never was, never shall be] Sorry. ;-("Thank you for pointing that error out. I transposed my digits, it should have been U-235. The fact remains that while the possession of nuclear weapons by Iran and North Korea is regrettable, it is not the end of the world. They can be negotiated away. States have developed such weapons and subsequently renounced them - South Africa and Libya come to mind. As I have written before, the drive to acquire such weapons by Iran is understandable. They live in a highly nuclearised neighbourhood. Were Israel to declare and reduce its own stockpile, tensions would be reduced in the area. The same applies to the American presence in Iraq, the Gulf States and Afganistan.North Korea is a different case, and the main issue is that the ruling family seems to live in a parallel universe. Also, they are supported by China, and would be in the event of an attack. Wed 09 Feb 2011 14:59:02 GMT+1 WebAliceinwonderland http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=96#comment78 :o)Old Egyptians were building pyramids, and modern ones are throwing stones at each other.- Back then it was time to collect stones, and now it is time to throw them. :o)Russian Duma, a summary of discussion of "Events in Tunisia and Egypt":"...and asphalt the Red Square immediately, for the ease of cleaning..." :o)))))))(it is in cobbles)______I know how Twitter appeared. It's when you want to SMS to someone, but have no one to :o(... and here we enter the second decade of the 21st century: a house has 3 TVs, 3 computers, 5 mobile phones, and 1 book... :o)))))))))))Modern youngsters keep saying that books are not needed anymore, if you want something, you can always find it in the internet.- Aha! So, suppose, you want to prope up a shattering three-legged table; what will you do it with, with Twitter?:o)))))))Swedish national wisdom says that every Swede should bring up a son, build a house, plant a tree, and, when that tree is grown - to make out of it one furniture item for IKEA. :o))))))))))Russian Internal Affairs minister Nurgaliev has announced that as of 1st of March all militiamen in the country are to be addressed to as "Gospodin Politseysky" / Boss policeman.At that, a citizen has desirably to do it in German language, and quickly and exactly report simultaneously where the nearest partisans are.o:))))))))))))))))) Wed 09 Feb 2011 01:11:14 GMT+1 WebAliceinwonderland http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=95#comment77 - continuation.. and no home.All that they've got is one apple, and even that one they are not allowed to eat.Look how sad they are. And they don't protest. They think they live in the paradise.They can be only Egyptian.:o) Wed 09 Feb 2011 00:46:51 GMT+1 WebAliceinwonderland http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=93#comment76 O, national folklore got enriched by an Egyptian joke:"A German, an Englishman and a Egyptian stopped in a museum by a paiting "Adam and Eve in Edem garden".The German says: Look, how proportionate their bodies are: she, with a fine but well formed shapes, he, so muscular and all; I am sure they were of German origin.The Englishman says: "Can not be! Pay attention at the? quietness in their faces, their tender ? weighted? expression, sobriety in their gestures. They could be only English.The Egyptian says: "I don't agree with either theory! have a closer look at them: they have no clothes, no footwear, and no home. Wed 09 Feb 2011 00:45:00 GMT+1 Nik http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=92#comment75 This post has been Removed Tue 08 Feb 2011 22:31:17 GMT+1 WebAliceinwonderland http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=91#comment74 :o) Who lived at Yeltsin - doesn't get scared in Egypt.(updated from "Who lived in Russia - doesn't laugh in a circus" :o))))Russian tourists in Egypt categorically demand from the opposition a continuation of the party! Otherwise the holidays are too boring." :o))))))_________Seriously, our folk eagerly participates in protests in Egypt, with banners and posters and full memorabilia. Taking either side :o))))Here is one neutral popular slogan: "We all will die but Egypt still alive!" (sorry, it's in Egyptian-Russian English :o))) Tue 08 Feb 2011 22:19:16 GMT+1 Nik http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=90#comment73 7. At 5:19pm on 07 Feb 2011, Ellinas wrote an E P I C message ! Tue 08 Feb 2011 22:03:00 GMT+1 WebAliceinwonderland http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=88#comment72 And, just FYI, among other numerous things the Great october no doubt Revolution has destroyed in 1917 was the ripe formation of an influential pan-world Muslim centre in Russia. Setting trends and fashion in Islam studies and Islam development. All went to hell. As well as everything else here. The fact is such a centre was formed in our Central Asia, they have gathered crowds of learned Islamists and were becoming trend eh setters.Islam development in the world stalled after we were bombasted.Here our Islamists miss the great chance greatly.Look at this mozaic modern Islam eh, separate tsardoms with separate rules and no one is answerable. Diversity is good, but where are centres in it of modernised Islam, somehow the appearing influential centres, like islands in Islam sea, are not very eh say advanced. Tue 08 Feb 2011 21:51:28 GMT+1 WebAliceinwonderland http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=87#comment71 powermeer @35 teaching your babushka how to cook borsch.We had muslims here since mongol-tatar invasion in modern Tatarstan and Siberia (heaps of khanaates in), then in the Russian Empire, then in the USSR, and still have all the same people around coming over, even since they became separate countries :o))))))))))Ours have never been exploidable literally I mean and that they became lately - is not a Russian invention but somebody taught them elsewhere. Russian 30% always on average muslims nobody heard of a bad word in the world since middle ages or before.That those accountants and young terrorist wives blow around in dozens is a new fashion and if you ask them themselves why they won't be able to explain.Give me a break "Caucasus suffering" they live at the expense of everyone else in the Federation, and actually run lots of trade elsewhere in the Federation, and are not minded to leave at all.Their leaders perfectly understanding that there are no more idiots in the world to up-keep them or patiently stand their hocus-pocus. es.And overall, as the old saying goes, "American imperialists keep interferring into national Russian affairs WORLDWIDE" :o)))))))))))) Tue 08 Feb 2011 21:43:41 GMT+1 MaudDib http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=86#comment70 A good example of Islam?http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12393075 Tue 08 Feb 2011 20:51:17 GMT+1 margaret howard http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=85#comment69 37 and 57 powermeer writes:"That's exactly what Winston Churchill has proposed in 1938 vis-a-vis LEGALLY ELECTED Nazi genocidal regime of certain Adolf Hitler."AND AGAIN"That's what other appeasing peacniks were saying in 1938 about III Reich's military capability."It's not 1938 now - the world (seemingly without you) has moved on. =================================39 [you may me forgiven for your comment since you don't have any bona fide high-tech technologies yourselves. Beside single malts, of course.]YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWN! Maybe if you limited your contributions somewhat you wouldn't repeat yourself so many times. Tue 08 Feb 2011 20:09:49 GMT+1 Buzet23 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=83#comment68 #68. At 7:54pm on 08 Feb 2011, margaret howardSo you heard about these things, either you're a part of the political environment you detest so much or it was reported on and proves my point. Tue 08 Feb 2011 19:59:22 GMT+1 margaret howard http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=82#comment67 42 Buzet writes:"The UK media prides itself in investigative journalism where corruption, patronage, incompetence are uncovered and publicised, it's time the rest of the EU followed suit."That's no doubt because so much of it exits here. It's how the system seems to work and although the media investigates little ever changes. I hear MPs are busy again manufacturing their expenses and the members of the (largely unelected) upper house are just as imaginative in claiming our dosh. And don't even start me on patronage. As for incompetence - just recently HM tax inspectorate has given out wrong codes to millions of people and demanding money they don't owe. In my experience the English media is as a whole more interested in the antics of Jordan and her ilk. Tue 08 Feb 2011 19:54:27 GMT+1 Buzet23 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=81#comment66 #49. At 2:09pm on 08 Feb 2011, MannekenWhat humour "The byzantine anti-EU ranters seem to think that the more divided you are, the more people will listen to you. Go figure!"The arch supporter of EU cozening calls us byzantine, Laurel and Hardy would laughing like hell now about the EU, that's another fine mess you've got us into [insert EU politicians names at will] Tue 08 Feb 2011 18:46:40 GMT+1 Buzet23 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=80#comment65 #53. At 3:04pm on 08 Feb 2011, quietoaktree wrote:Buzet 23--I meant Aden and not Yemen.I have no idea what you are referring to other than that you consider the EU to be the garden of Eden so you probably misspelt it, if you did then first Adam was corrupt and incompetent and secondly Eve was probably Margaret, AAAGH Tue 08 Feb 2011 18:41:37 GMT+1 Buzet23 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=79#comment64 #45. At 1:35pm on 08 Feb 2011, quietoaktree wrote:"#42 Buzet 23"The UK media prides itself in investigative journalism -- "I agree -- but unjustified !--- the little investigative journalism that is done -- you reject its findings as being anti-British !"Kindly inform us from your Walter Mitty world just what investigative journalism has uncovered the faults, corruption of the EU and especially EP, their tricks are known but forbidden to be published by your pro EU media. As for the EU anti-corruption department, was a whistle blower not fired from it for speaking out?You are truly brain dead. Tue 08 Feb 2011 17:54:27 GMT+1 DurstigerMann http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=77#comment63 @49 Manneken"You'll notice that most of the vehement protests against the EU are based on failed 19th century concepts, such as "sovereignty" (very ill-defined), a jacobin "majority takes all" concept of democracy (defined by anti-EU people as a specific referendum they think they can win, rather than what it actually is, i.e. a system of checks and balances, protection of minorities, and regular ways to get rid of your rulers), and a very recent, rather totalitarian view of the nation-state. We all know how the 19th century ended: in the great European civil war of 1914-1945 (or 1914-1989 if you want). I have never been able to spot any internal consistency in their arguments, they do a lot of circular thinking, and are extremely selective in the kind of facts they wish to consider."Your argument is flawed on several accounts.1. The late 19th and 20th century experienced an unknown era of peace, stability and prosperity in Europe. At the turn of the century, there was great hope in the future.2. The term sovereignty does not allow for such a concept which you prefer. Another word for it would be "statehood". Since a modern democracy is basically defined as rule of the demos, which is represented by an elected parliament, goverment, etc, a government that relinquishes national sovereignty also relinquishes the rule of its principal, the demos.3. Checks and balance, laws, minority rights, etc pp are only institutions introduced to enforce and protect the way a society decides to go. They have little to do with the question of sovereignty.4. While you ramble about totalitarian forms of nationalism, you apparently don`t realize the irony behind your defense of undemocratically installed supranational institutions.Your negative attitude towards referenda only underlines this.Under the guise of opposition to "jacobinian the majority takes all concept democracy" and in defense of minority rights, you actually promote a "the minority decides it all" attitude.Let me quote you:"It's rather simple. The EU stands for the following:- ever closer union between the peoples of Europe- peace and prosperity across Europe- safeguarding human rights & democracy- unity in diversity"So if it is an ever closer union between the people of Europe, why was I, along with hundreds of millions of Europeans, not allowed to vote on it?In order to safeguard human rights & democracy?I am not even entirely against the basic concepts behind the EU. But your line of argument is arbitrary and incoherent.Also, your knowledge of history is quite special, if you allow me to use an euphemism. Tue 08 Feb 2011 17:35:33 GMT+1 BluesBerry http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=76#comment62 I'm glad that you survived your "jolt".How far should the West and Europe go in promoting democracy in the Middle East and predominantly Muslim countries? I can't believe the arrogance of this question!By what right does the EU question the type of Government that a country prefers, and if, like Egypt, it demonstrates that it wants a different type of Government, especially this much-promoted thing in the west called democracy, all democratic countries ought to lend whatever support is possible. The democratic world set a horrible precedent when it shut-out the democratically elected Hamas Party in Gaza. Gaza was a democratic election, and the democratic world, including Israel, should have regocnized the election results.So what if Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Khamenei had called for Egyptians to rise up and install an Islamic state? Is not the west calling for an "orderly transition". Advice is advice, but in Egypt we have a People's Revolt; the people will decide, even if they must wait till September to do it.I don't often agree with David Camneron; so, let me say that I agree with David Cameron that "We don't accept that it is impossible for predominantly Muslim countries to have a functioning democracy. They have one in Turkey; they have one in Indonesia. I think frankly it's condescending to say that other countries can't have one too."I agree when you state: In Washington and European capitals no alternative is seen than to take the risk - even if you don't always like the outcome, as with the electoral victory of Hamas.And I absoluitely loved Mrs Merkel's statement re the Egyptian People: "I can't imagine they are waiting to hear what we think." Tue 08 Feb 2011 17:32:11 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=75#comment61 Finally some good news from Egypt :-)" "Cairo shooting range set for WiFi control A new range surveillance, measurement and control system that uses millimetric-wave wireless technology is scheduled to become operational at Egypt's Central Shooting Range (CSR) in March 2011, according to system provider IndiComm." (Janes Defense) Tue 08 Feb 2011 17:30:37 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=74#comment60 "Best estimate for Iran to enough highly enriched U325 "There's not even the worst estimate available.For there's no such thing as Uranium-325.[never was, never shall be]Sorry. ;-( Tue 08 Feb 2011 17:16:38 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=72#comment59 Re #59 champagne_charlieOn a more serious note...According to professional estimates North Korea has enough of highly enriched (weapon-grade) uranium for 6-8 warheads.Whether Kim Jong-il's regime is capable of 'weaponizing' those physics packages in 2 years or 3 years - is anybody's guess.[Now, 'bout them ca 4000 centrifuges in Iranian Natanz alone... :-)] Tue 08 Feb 2011 17:13:33 GMT+1 champagne_charlie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=71#comment58 #48macturk;"Best estimate for Iran to enough highly enriched U325 to turn into a bomb or warhead(note; ONE bomb/warhead) is between three and eight years."Yeah you're right - and when they it explodes over Tel Aviv they'll have none. The people of Tel Aviv will be ecstatic with that news."North Korea may - repeat MAY - have one or two viable warheads."Cool, just enough to destroy Seoul. And if not, the hundreds of artillery pieces will finish the job. But at least the people of Seoul will be encouraged by knowing that Pyongyang MAY have no nukes left. Tue 08 Feb 2011 16:25:39 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=70#comment57 Re #56, champagne_charlie There is more than one full time al-Jazeera promoter/propagandist in this blog.So relax. Tue 08 Feb 2011 16:09:52 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=69#comment56 "Best estimate for Iran to enough highly enriched U325 to turn into a bomb or warhead(note; ONE bomb/warhead) is between three and eight years. North Korea may - repeat MAY - have one or two viable warheads. Your scenario of "...their authoritarian fanatical regimes could nuke everybody else" is a form of war porn."That's what other appeasing peacniks were saying in 1938 about III Reich's military capability.["When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn."] Tue 08 Feb 2011 16:03:26 GMT+1 champagne_charlie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=67#comment55 #55quietoaktree;Eh? What?Why did you link me aljazeera's website coverage of the Tahrir Square protests? There has been dozens of hours of coverage of events in Egypt in the UK media, British journalists have been broadcasting live from there since it began. I'll be damned if I know what point you are making. Tue 08 Feb 2011 15:39:24 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=66#comment54 #51 CCMy comment to #40 -- you did not read ?http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/Now do not complain ! Tue 08 Feb 2011 15:12:24 GMT+1 champagne_charlie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=65#comment53 #49manneken;"One of the cornerstones is the internal market, a level playing field for the EU economy."Haha, good one. Tue 08 Feb 2011 15:11:55 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=64#comment52 Buzet 23--I meant Aden and not Yemen. Tue 08 Feb 2011 15:04:06 GMT+1 champagne_charlie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=62#comment51 #50quietoaktree;Fortunately, the Egyptians, Yemenis and Sudanese are taking responsibility for their own actions, given that is has been 50 years since their respective independence (I'll patiently await the pedantic wikipedia intervention from margarethoward on the exact dates).You should take a leaf out of their book. Tue 08 Feb 2011 14:53:07 GMT+1 champagne_charlie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=61#comment50 #45quietoaktree;"--- the little investigative journalism that is done -- you reject its findings as being anti-British !"For someone who doesnt believe in the quality of British journalism, you spend an inordinate amount of time posting on its state broadcasters site, usually citing sources from other British media outlets to justify your arguments. You want us to rely on sources that YOU dismiss as being worthy only of "blank pages"? As you would say " you want your cake and eat it"? Tue 08 Feb 2011 14:31:09 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=60#comment49 This post has been Removed Tue 08 Feb 2011 14:12:37 GMT+1 Manneken http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=59#comment48 #40It's rather simple. The EU stands for the following:- ever closer union between the peoples of Europe- peace and prosperity across Europe- safeguarding human rights & democracy- unity in diversityAll of this through collaboration between its member-states, who agree, on a fully voluntary basis, to pool sovereignty for the purposes as agreed between them. One of the cornerstones is the internal market, a level playing field for the EU economy. Every member state is free to leave, any time.Does the EU achieve its goals? Well, there is obviously quite some way to go. Has it been successful? Yes, very much so. It is the most successful peaceful political project in Europe in the last 500 years (if not longer).You'll notice that most of the vehement protests against the EU are based on failed 19th century concepts, such as "sovereignty" (very ill-defined), a jacobin "majority takes all" concept of democracy (defined by anti-EU people as a specific referendum they think they can win, rather than what it actually is, i.e. a system of checks and balances, protection of minorities, and regular ways to get rid of your rulers), and a very recent, rather totalitarian view of the nation-state. We all know how the 19th century ended: in the great European civil war of 1914-1945 (or 1914-1989 if you want). I have never been able to spot any internal consistency in their arguments, they do a lot of circular thinking, and are extremely selective in the kind of facts they wish to consider.You'll also notice that the protesters contribute no value, in the sense that they have no positive political project, they provide no solutions, they are just "against". They're against the EU, probably because it exists, and most certainly because of its relative success. Of course, it is clear that the EU, to the extent it can influence things (even Obama seems to struggle) will need to speak clearly, and with one voice.The byzantine anti-EU ranters seem to think that the more divided you are, the more people will listen to you. Go figure! Tue 08 Feb 2011 14:09:15 GMT+1 MacTurk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=58#comment47 powermeerkat(no 5) wrote "GH: "We were discussing arguably the most important foreign policy questions of our time."You must be kidding! I though it would be whether to preemptively strike Iran's and North Korea's secrete nuclear facilities before their authoritarian fanatical regimes could nuke everybody else".Best estimate for Iran to enough highly enriched U325 to turn into a bomb or warhead(note; ONE bomb/warhead) is between three and eight years. North Korea may - repeat MAY - have one or two viable warheads. Your scenario of "...their authoritarian fanatical regimes could nuke everybody else" is a form of war porn.Iran is run by people who I consider to be a collection of sexually repressed control freaks, but they are not stupid. They are not going to start a nuclear war, nor will they be handing out warheads, acquired via an incredible expenditure of their own money, energy, brains and blood, to some terrorist group. Given the geography, any Iranian leadership would have to consider acquiring a nuclear capability. They are surrounded by either nuclear armed ststes, or states which have forces from nuclear armed nations resident.For North Korea, the nuclear program is a bargaining tool, and a big boy's toy. And while the Kim Family Hereditary State(patent pending) may be totally weird, the family will not destroy its source of cash and comforts by indulging in a conflict they know they will loose.As for Egypt, Cameron has stated the best policy, given that any other option is either impossible(military intervention) or counnter-productive. Let the Egyptians find their own way. It is heartening to see so many people in the Arab world losing their fear of the ruling kleptocrats. Re the EU's External Action Service, it is barely a month old, so it might need a little time to settle down, gather some experienced personnel and develop its mandate. Very early days yet. Tue 08 Feb 2011 14:08:57 GMT+1 DurstigerMann http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=56#comment46 @21 quietoaktree"My understanding of #8, is the contributor believes that a supra-national foreign policy should not exist and that a national foreign policy has nothing to do with the interests of Europe."To this day, there is no real supranational foreign policy. "The two sentences-1. Most European nations have become utterly unable to reassure their own values, culture and laws.2.A strong and confident Europe wouldn`t bother with possible outcomes of a democratic development in Egypt, but embrace it anyway.--suggest a frustration, rather than a wish for nationalism and isolationism ?"I will give you an example of what I mean:During the Greek debt crisis last year, a German member of the European Commission said during a talkshow that we Germans should not forget that the EU needed to be implemented because of us and our destructive nature.The Nazi era is also used as an argument pro-immigration. Whoever promotes stricter rules for criminals of foreign nationality, is against the EU, etc risks being denounced as a facist and/or a Nazi.The latest trend is denouncing criticism on islam as "islamophobic" and racist.That`s what persuasion by name calling is. You silence your opposition by using their fear of being linked to such ideologies against them.And while I understand why this approach works in Germany, I have no idea why it does in other European nations. Somehow it has become uncool and facist when a [insert European country] national supports [insert European country] interests.I am not really frustrated yet, but in my eyes Europes problems are all homemade and need to be fixed right here and not in the middle east. Tue 08 Feb 2011 14:03:29 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=55#comment45 This post has been Removed Tue 08 Feb 2011 14:01:13 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=54#comment44 #42 Buzet 23"The UK media prides itself in investigative journalism -- "I agree -- but unjustified !--- the little investigative journalism that is done -- you reject its findings as being anti-British !#40 John--- you do not compare news sources ? Tue 08 Feb 2011 13:35:17 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=53#comment43 Re #43Buzet, perhaps youve not noticed it's not a European blog (which it's never beeen) and not even a EU blog, let alone euro zone blog.It's become a bona fide Mid Eastern blog.Without anybody bothering to inform its participants about a change. Tue 08 Feb 2011 13:12:48 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=51#comment42 #27 Stevenson" There are Jews everywhere and where they are democracy usually accompanies them...so that culture can advance..Sorry Israel haters...we and Israel know that the hate you feel for them isn't for their "oppression" of Palestinians it is because...they all got away from Europeans bent on wiping Jews off the face of the Earth."The Jews are (and were never) a one- dimensional people -- and as you said "democracy USUALLY accompanies them." Their contribution to social and political thought is immense-- all the way from Anarchism through Communism to Zionism.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_anarchism´Who Will Write Our History ´ (Samuel D. Kassow - 2007) apart from being a history of the Warsaw Ghetto, gives also a detailed account of the European Jewish thought on political and social issues -- and those who survived the Holocaust took this diversity with them -- whether it be Israel, America, Britain etc.. There were (and still are) Jews totally against a Jewish or Zionist homeland.Perhaps (with good intentions) you believe that such one-dimensional support of Israel is a support of the Jewish people -- It is not ! -- it is a hinderance to the very Jewish attribute you praise ---and a better Israel ! Tue 08 Feb 2011 13:11:39 GMT+1 Buzet23 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=50#comment41 #40. At 12:21pm on 08 Feb 2011, johnEducate or Indoctrinate? There is a big difference and most that comes out of the EU Institutions is nothing more than politically correct indoctrination. Having lived outside of the UK for 20 years I never cease to be amazed by the media in the countries I know whereby there is little debate on the failings of the EU. All utterances of the EU institutions and the EU mandarins are taken as gospel and reported almost verbatim. The EU blogs should present the good AND the ugly, not just that which is supposed to be good, as often there is a smokescreen over failings in supposed advantages eg. freedom of movement of labour. The UK media prides itself in investigative journalism where corruption, patronage, incompetence are uncovered and publicised, it's time the rest of the EU followed suit. Tue 08 Feb 2011 12:47:02 GMT+1 Carlos Collaco http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=49#comment40 Most of what needs writing on Egypt's ongoing struggles has been written by GH in this article.Angela Merkel's one-line comment quoted here is as wise as it gets on how Western leaders should view events in that country.Of course no-one with basic grasp of geopolitics would ever contemplate a large nation, a pivotal country sliding into a theocracy - an Islamic one at that.There are hardly any pointers as to how a majority of Egyptians feel regarding their representation in government.I would therefore stop short of any remark. I simply don't know how popular religious-based groups, or any other, are that the people might actually vote them into office...The situation is pretty tricky but again exposes the fragility of positions dealing with rather complex societies such as Egypt's.I do not think Turkey and Indonesia are quite comparable with most Arab States.Those countries are working democracies now but the military have in the past played vital roles too. Still do to this day in each country's internal set-up.In Turkey the military institution has long been looked up to, trusted and respected by the majority. Especially when politicians have failed the country.Egyptians will have to find a path to their future. It will be a path of their choosing.Western-style democracy is not a one-size-fits-all ready to be worn over by every society overnight. Democracy is about much more than casting a ballot on voting day.It takes time and process to root itself in the spirit of the masses who often face much more pressing concerns.To hasten Mubarak's departure from the outside would run counterproductive to transitioning to a new order, still unfathomable.If he gets toppled from within Egyptians will bear the full brunt for replacing his autocracy.Western interests are likely to be safeguarded throughout.Egypt, however, will be shaped by the Egyptians. Tue 08 Feb 2011 12:28:55 GMT+1 john http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=48#comment39 Dear Mr.HewittThanks for the information related to the Egypt and other crisis bat the above are extensively cover by the BBC main news.This is a European blog news and comment should be related to the EU and discuss our to improve the EU can we make the EU more democratic is the direction take by the EU correct - is the power dived correctly between the 3 main body of the EU or need changing - it is possible to have the Euro and at the same time have different fiscal policy in the Euro zone or the time as arrive to engage the six gear and move at fast speed to fiscal and political union.One of the main aim of you contribution should be to explain in simple term wot the EU stand for and the benefit/duty to the members lot of people in members state and specially in the UK do not know the in and out of the EU this is great opportunity to educate the people of Europe and for us the British people.John Tue 08 Feb 2011 12:21:24 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=46#comment38 " Haven't your Rambo tactics caused enough troubles in recent decades?"margaret howard, using UAVs against top echelons of your favorite al-Qaida/Taliban types (as well as anybody else as long as they are anti-American) hardly constitutes a Rambo tactics.More like a high-tech tactics.[you may me forgiven for your comment since you don't have any bona fide high-tech technologies yourselves. Beside single malts, of course.] Tue 08 Feb 2011 12:06:02 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=45#comment37 At 02:59am on 08 Feb 2011, Stevenson wrote:Don't worry too much..I vote Dem...Is that Demolition, Stevenson, or just simply a Demagogy?[now, 'bout that G-suit.... :-)] Tue 08 Feb 2011 10:30:24 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=44#comment36 22. At 11:51pm on 07 Feb 2011, margaret howard wrote:15 powermeer writes:"I've not advocated NUCLEAR strike against N. Korea and Iran. I forgive you for being ignorant of military matters, but there are much better and effective methods to render Iranian and North Korean underground nuclear facilities inoperable - than using nukes."Whether you strike with nuclear weapons or not, you are proposing an attack on another country because of some perceived threat.That's exactly what Winston Churchill has proposed in 1938 vis-a-vis LEGALLY ELECTED Nazi genocidal regime of certain Adolf Hitler.As a result Churchill was then called a warmonger.Just like your suicidal kind is calling folks like me now.["When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn" :-(((] Tue 08 Feb 2011 10:25:19 GMT+1 Buzet23 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=43#comment35 #33. At 08:51am on 08 Feb 2011, champagne_charlieI doubt he is saying that now about Belgium as we now have the latest in a long line of politicians charged by the King to try and create a government since the elections on June 13th. This time it is Didier Reynders who as Finance Minister is responsible for the disastrous state of Belgians finances whereby there is speculation that Belgium may need bailing out soon. If his mission fails then logic says there must be a new election and if the result is the same, the Flemish demand for Independence may be granted and the Belgium federation dissolved. As the heart of the federal EU this represents a nightmare scenario for the pro-EUites since it is yet another example of how federations are flawed. Add to this the fact that there would be one hell of a row about the status of Brussels since it is almost totally francophone but within the region of Flanders, and you see the full horror of this for a rabid EU supporter who sees no other direction than a federal super state. Tue 08 Feb 2011 10:13:00 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=41#comment34 Alice in Wonderland re Domodedovo airport bombing attack 8 February 2011... In a video posted online, Mr Umarov said the attack was a response to "Russian crimes in the Caucasus".Similar suicide attacks would continue, he added, speaking in Russian.Mr Umarov is leader of the "Caucasus Emirate", an Islamist militant group spanning the North Caucasus, and is one of the few prominent Chechen rebels still active, having served as security minister in the Chechen separatist government from 1996-99. (BBC News)That's what happens, Alice if you (and by "you" I mean the current FSB/mafia (same difference) regime currently ruling Russian Federation de facto (not you personally, to be sure) murder all moderate Caucasus leaders (gen. Dudayev, Maskhadov, etc.), only to be stuck with, as a result of your fanatical, racist, imperialist actions, with Muslim fanatics, eagerly, of course, accepting (out of desperation) any support from foreign Muslim fanatics.Including al-Qaeda.Now, since your "free, democratic government" of "new improved" Russian Federation (which has destroyed any democratic opposition in your native country) obviously doesn't want to get out of Caucasus you've occupied for over 200 years (since the Prussian sexoholic from Stettin has become your Catherine the Great) - the average citizen of your country may suffer mightily as a result.Whether he/she supports KGB gen. Putin's policies or not.Which is an awful, awful shame. :-( Tue 08 Feb 2011 10:12:03 GMT+1 Silvia http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=40#comment33 Great to see the Western countries preaching to their lesser brethren about "democracy", even as their own priority to maintain the status quo in the face of the recession is leading them to start eroding the rights their own citizens mistakenly thought actually were part of democracy. As Merkel so accurately puts it (are all our leaders also being forced into giving the game away these days?) "Democracy is about more than just elections". Tue 08 Feb 2011 09:17:30 GMT+1 champagne_charlie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=39#comment32 #32buzet;"Anyone noticed that QOT has returned and Manneken has disappeared in this thread?"Manneken wrote this sometime in 2009 "Long Live Belgium, Long Live Herman van Rompoy, Long Live the European Union!". Even QOT wouldnt write something like that lol. Anyway, QOT doesnt have the attention span to write the volumes of drivel that manneken does, he barely manages to complete one sentence per pointless post. Tue 08 Feb 2011 08:51:47 GMT+1 Buzet23 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=38#comment31 #19. At 9:00pm on 07 Feb 2011, quietoaktree wrote:"Buzet 23--- Are you insinuating the British foreign policy towards the Middle East was a masterwork ?-- we are in this situation now -- BECAUSE OF IT !--- Europe says thank you UK ???"As always it your mind lives in a fantasy world and you invent aspersions, innuendo's at total random, nowhere have I mentioned Britain in any post. If you wish to see who have had influence in that region at some time there are many, including the Arabs, Turks, French, Russians as well as Great Britain, USA, uncle tom cobley and all. In your Walter Mitty fantasy world though it has to be Great Britain.As for "Europe says thank you, UK", well should it for the years of net contributions that the UK has paid to it to fund the incompetent, corrupt institutions that the EU has become. The Socialist redistribution of wealth under the guise of levelling the playing field in a federal supra-national state where only regions exist is failing. The building is crumbling since the architects forgot there were no solid foundations to build it on.Anyone noticed that QOT has returned and Manneken has disappeared in this thread? Tue 08 Feb 2011 08:10:26 GMT+1 Huaimek http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=37#comment30 #8 Jukka RohilaThe Crisis in Egypt could have profound effects upon Europe ; the conference provided an opportune moment for European leaders to discuss the matter .In My opinion the Franco/German pact for competitiveness is a non starter and could prove more devisive than cohesive . The EU is not about competitiveness , to the contrary . It is simply laughable that the mediterranean counties could be more " Germanised " , to make them able to keep pace with Germany . Economically one of the biggest errors of the EU , is the idea of being trading partners , looking to principally trade internally with one another . It doesn't work ! German lends money to poorer countries to buy their products . Too many countries are trying to sell the same goods to one another .The Euro has destroyed competitiveness in Europe . Many people took their holidays and retired to live in cheap and sunny spain . Spain has been building houses that north european people might have bought , with the Euro spain is now too expensive and nobody buys the houses .Similarly it applies to portugal , Italy and Greece . Italy is industrialised north of the Po river and progressively less so to the south . The north has to support the south .In a federal state of Europe , Germany and the northern states will have to support all the southern and eastern states . Finns might like that , but I suggest that Germans and many other states would not . Tue 08 Feb 2011 07:05:40 GMT+1 d_m http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=35#comment29 #19, quietoaktree:"--- Are you insinuating the British foreign policy towards the Middle East was a masterwork ?-- we are in this situation now -- BECAUSE OF IT !British foreign policy toward the middle east was a mixed bag--some good some bad. It's a bit of a stretch to suggest that we are in the 'situation' we are in now--whatever that is since it's not clear to me what you mean by that--because of what the British did sixty or a hundred years ago. Beyond that, to blame the British and ignore the role the French played, or the Ottoman Turks, or the Arabs themselves seems more than a bit disingenuous. Cause and effect often seem so obvious while the reality remains elusive. "--- Europe says thank you UK ???..." Europe better keep its head down. They can hardly claim any moral high ground. Tue 08 Feb 2011 06:00:04 GMT+1 Stevenson http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=34#comment28 I apologize...no one here is very prejudiced or in denial about people and motives or ...well bigoted.But, in the HYS they were going on about Israel and the USA...this kind of belief--in a conspiracy of these 2 leaderships of 2 nations and the lobbies that are referred to...are scarily present in probably most of the minds of the left--*otherwise well educated people who are supposed to be open minded*--thee leftists in the UK sometimes are some of the most cynical, judgemental, and incorrect in which facts they have decided to believe.It is common that conspiracies about Jews and lets see..the illuminati ...are believed in and also, ...well... fantasies...BUT, they are based on self denial and an attempt at explanation of ones own ineffectiveness in mentally dealing with realities--whichever they are...People who want to believe in the "end-times" (fundamentalist Christians in the USA) are equal toPeople who want to believe that there is the hidden hand behind all events...I meanPhysicists are trying to figure out chaos theory...and there are determinists who believe that the action and reactions and so on and so forth...there are very few objective things except for the sky is blue, the earth is spherical, and the day is long sometimes.Otherwise it is belief, opinion and judgement (good, bad, positive, negative)But there is also the neutral opinions and actions (good vs bad)But I apologize for saying Europeans are more prejudiced than say, I, me :) or more prejudiced than other world peoples. (they are probably the world's most informed peoples...blah blah, but true) Tue 08 Feb 2011 04:37:01 GMT+1 Stevenson http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=33#comment27 Don't worry too much..I vote Dem... Tue 08 Feb 2011 02:59:45 GMT+1 Stevenson http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=32#comment26 Actually,There are Jews everywhere and where they are democracy usually accompanies them...so that culture can advance..Sorry Israel haters...we and Israel know that the hate you feel for them isn't for their "oppression" of Palestinians it is because...they all got away from Europeans bent on wiping Jews off the face of the Earth.this is just the new bigotry disguised as pro-Palestinian politics So sorry, but so true. Tue 08 Feb 2011 02:55:15 GMT+1 MaudDib http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=30#comment25 This post has been Removed Tue 08 Feb 2011 02:02:43 GMT+1 Stevenson http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=29#comment24 Margaret, Whom should attack N. Korea? Japan? Or China? Or no-one...as 4 or more million people are at risk of dying in such a war...The North Korean part of the peninsula is inhabited and should not be made into a parking lot.But, it IS Japan and S. Korea that are most threatened by Les N. Koreans.What is your solution? Starving the N. Koreans?or just the status quo..Also, do you resent the arrogant seeming *power of the USA* or do you actually see moral wrongs done by them?See, I didn't insult your intelligence in my post directed to you. Tue 08 Feb 2011 01:29:26 GMT+1 Stevenson http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=28#comment23 QuietOakTree,Do you agree...that it would be worse to live in Iran than in say, the USA or Great Britain (leaving out any bad things we may do in the world)???I'm actually quite sure people whom are against the Afghanistan war often cite statistics which are made up.I hate that...quoting lies as truth.And one Can determine the truth from what information that is available. For instance, one American is not worth more than one foreigner. But, if the foreigner has plans for killing Americans then they are ...well...um at risk. And what sickens me is the hostage holding nature of terrorists hiding out in non-combatants homes....this does happen. And Israel lost their last war because of this truth...hostage taking by their enemies. Human Shields...but I do not think we the Americans/British should be in perpetual war against the world....as it tends to bankrupt our nations.Sad, isn't it that I'm more worried about the money spent badly than anything.But, I do know that to kill is to kill...Watch Goodfellas..their hit men get hit...so one feels um ,..numb...but killing IS wrong yes? Or are the drugs put into society without paying taxes the worse crime, here? Tue 08 Feb 2011 01:24:21 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=27#comment22 This post has been Removed Mon 07 Feb 2011 23:57:19 GMT+1 margaret howard http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=25#comment21 15 powermeer writes:"I've not advocated NUCLEAR strike against N. Korea and Iran. I forgive you for being ignorant of military matters, but there are much better and effective methods to render Iranian and North Korean underground nuclear facilities inoperable - than using nukes."Whether you strike with nuclear weapons or not, you are proposing an attack on another country because of some perceived threat . We have yet to hear either of these countries threatening America with a strike on its facilities, nuclear or otherwise. I may be ignorant of military matters but you are certaily ignorant about the rights of other nations. Seeing that neither of these countries could possibly pose a physical threat to America just whose interests are you 'defending'? Haven't your Rambo tactics caused enough troubles in recent decades Mon 07 Feb 2011 23:51:54 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=24#comment20 #20 DurstigermanMy understanding of #8, is the contributor believes that a supra-national foreign policy should not exist and that a national foreign policy has nothing to do with the interests of Europe. PMK has also repeatedly complained on the American blog that ´Obamacare´ is an American topic --American foreign policy or how the events in Egypt can affect it --is not.The two sentences-1. Most European nations have become utterly unable to reassure their own values, culture and laws. 2.A strong and confident Europe wouldn`t bother with possible outcomes of a democratic development in Egypt, but embrace it anyway.--suggest a frustration, rather than a wish for nationalism and isolationism ? Mon 07 Feb 2011 23:41:32 GMT+1 DurstigerMann http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=23#comment19 @7 Jukka Rohila"What is this continual business with extra-European matters? Shouldn't this be a blog about European matters, stuff that matters in Europe? Surely other reporters are covering the situation in Egypt."I`d tend to disagree. The situation in Egypt and the way European leaders and media are acting on this topic has everything to do with a fundamental European problem:a complete lack of self-confidence. Under the guise of humanism and modernity, Europe is leading crusade against itself and against its values for decades now. Can`t say anything these days, because someone else might feel offended.Some people call this problem political correctness. Honderich calls this phenomenon "persuasion by name calling".Most European nations have become utterly unable to reassure their own values, culture and laws. The massive influx of people of islamic faith and the stunning disability of our societies in handling them is but one indicator for this.A strong and confident Europe wouldn`t bother with possible outcomes of a democratic development in Egypt, but embrace it anyway. Mon 07 Feb 2011 22:35:36 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=22#comment18 Buzet 23--- Are you insinuating the British foreign policy towards the Middle East was a masterwork ?-- we are in this situation now -- BECAUSE OF IT !--- Europe says thank you UK ??? Mon 07 Feb 2011 21:00:47 GMT+1 Buzet23 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=20#comment17 #10. At 5:53pm on 07 Feb 2011, quietoaktree"--- please explain THAT logic !"As usual you accept the pot calling the kettle black, just who are the incompetent, corrupt, undemocratic EU to lecture anyone on democracy and how to resolve a problem. First they need to reform the EU and remove the inherent corruption, patronage and political ambition with no logic or financial/economic sense. After that maybe, just maybe they can recommend, but I doubt it somehow. Mon 07 Feb 2011 19:03:35 GMT+1 MaudDib http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=19#comment16 12. miss margaret"Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows!" Mon 07 Feb 2011 18:39:50 GMT+1 Buzet23 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=18#comment15 So QOT has returned, or has he/she actually been away, and as always the comments are odd to say the least.So Cameron actually knows what is right is clear but whether he or more importantly the EU will do it is dubious :-"That's not to say that democracy is simply the act of holding an election," he continued. "I think that's what the neo-cons were wrong about. Democracy isn't just the act of holding an elections, it's about the building blocks of democracy. It's about ensuring you do have rights, you do have the rule of law. You do have a proper role for the judiciary and an appropriate place for the army. It's about all of these things built up over many, many years in our own country that we want to see in other countries. So we shouldn't be naive, or starry-eyed about believing that by flicking a switch with an election that will solve all the problems. We should be encouraging nations like Egypt to move in that direction."Oh my, take note those in the starry eyed EU/Euro lobby, at least one politician knows what you're up to so I hope he actually applies this logic to the EU or leaves and lets the EU sink. Mon 07 Feb 2011 18:38:55 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=17#comment14 margaret howard wrote:5 powermeer writes:"I though it would be whether to preemptively strike Iran's and North Korea's secrete nuclear facilities before their authoritarian fanatical regimes could nuke everybody else."Here we go again - nuke the world just in case.I wish you'd read my post carefully before you reacted.I've not advocated NUCLEAR strike against N. Korea and Iran.I forgive you for being ignorant of military matters, but there are much better and effective methods to render Iranian and North Korean underground nuclear facilities inoperable - than using nukes.That you don't know about them it's your problem - not mine. Mon 07 Feb 2011 18:38:05 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=16#comment13 This post has been Removed Mon 07 Feb 2011 18:37:57 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=14#comment12 quietoaktree wrote:PMKYour team lost the Super Bowl now you want to destroy the world ???? You know who my favorite hero is, you know what my favorite football team is...Please, watch " The Man Who Knew Too Much".Before you attempt to post yet another ad hominem.capisce? Mon 07 Feb 2011 18:30:16 GMT+1 margaret howard http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=13#comment11 5 powermeer writes:"I though it would be whether to preemptively strike Iran's and North Korea's secrete nuclear facilities before their authoritarian fanatical regimes could nuke everybody else."Here we go again - nuke the world just in case. Haven't you Americans learnt anything from the last debacle? Iran and North Korea know full well that to use nuclear weapons on anyone in their region or beyond would spell the end of their countries and population. America would flatten them well before they had a chance to push a button. Stop interfering - remember the Monroe Doctrine? Mon 07 Feb 2011 18:21:02 GMT+1 Ellinas http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=12#comment10 I was lucubrating on my above thoughts...--✄-- Hewitt...not another "US hamburger propaganda journalism" with some "Turkish kebab sauce" upon. --✄--...After all isn't it that what the today UK diplomacy is all about? Mon 07 Feb 2011 18:19:35 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=11#comment9 8. At 5:28pm on 07 Feb 2011, Jukka Rohila wrote:"What is this continual business with extra-European matters? Shouldn't this be a blog about European matters--"--- please explain THAT logic ! Mon 07 Feb 2011 17:53:11 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=9#comment8 PMKYour team lost the Super Bowl now you want to destroy the world ???? Mon 07 Feb 2011 17:35:30 GMT+1 Jukka Rohila http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=8#comment7 What is this continual business with extra-European matters? Shouldn't this be a blog about European matters, stuff that matters in Europe? Surely other reporters are covering the situation in Egypt.In my honest opinion the most important event in Europe right now is the continual process of Eurozone transformation. The Franco-German suggested pact for competitiveness is the most important topic right now and the result of that discussion will effect greatly the future of Europe. Mon 07 Feb 2011 17:28:01 GMT+1 Ellinas http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=7#comment6 Actually I'm responding to a previous topic "Europe wobbles over Egypt" since they all close so soon and one hasn't got the time to make a clear analysis.Hewitt! What's the point combining your previous "the good the bad and the ugly spaghetti article" with the solomonian solution (me, personally, haven't understood why Erdogan among all the diplomats): the Turkish/Erdogan one...The example: Erdogan and by him Turkey in contrast to the EU voice by praising the first one with those words is ludicrous...--✄-- What Turkey demonstrates is that you don't need a single voice to be influential. The country has a vibrant economy (you seem to forget their recent trip trough the long IMF supervision), a clear message (Mubarak should step aside) and the increasing confidence to assert its views. --✄--...at the time a "clear message" to Mubarak by this amateur Diplomat is accompanied with another "clear message" only 2 days later...Turkish PM demands action against Turkish Cypriot protestersby saying...Who are these people [the TurkCypriot protesters]? We have video records of them. They need to be submitted to the court. The placards cursing Turkey should not have been permitted. You have to do whatever necessary to this endor 2 weaks earlier... Turkish police remove quadrilingual BDP sign in Midyat - Kurdish language oppression by the Turkish stateand 2 days later go to...Crimean Tatar National Assembly, Prime Minister Erdogan, President Mustafa Abdülcemil Kırımoğlu 'mother-tongue education' reported demand...to help promote Turkish mother tongue education in UkraineThat is the man you well praised in regards to the EU diplomacy and this is their policyThis article was the worst one that i can remember from you...and i still remember itWake up Hewitt...journalistically speaking...because even your Prime Minister already done that British PM calls multiculturalism a failureAnd we all know that don't make a reference to the polish immigrants over there and that "multi" is a paronomasia (pun) for "muslim"Anyway! Even so...I firmly think Hewitt that you are here to tell us what is been said "off the record" by such diplomats (like in Davos) because the "on the record" facts apart from the fact that don't count a lot there are also easily to be found with a simple Internet research as well as expecting from you a deeply analysis of the facts not another "US hamburger propaganda journalism" with some "Turkish kebab sauce" upon. Mon 07 Feb 2011 17:19:38 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=6#comment5 PMKThe Middle East youth is only using the argument of your hero G. W. Bush.´If you are not with us --- then you are against us ! ´--- you can´t have your cake and eat it too ! Mon 07 Feb 2011 17:19:31 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=4#comment4 GH: "We were discussing arguably the most important foreign policy questions of our time." You must be kidding!I though it would be whether to preemptively strike Iran's and North Korea's secrete nuclear facilities before their authoritarian fanatical regimes could nuke everybody else. Mon 07 Feb 2011 17:08:51 GMT+1 Ad http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=3#comment3 It was good to see that the Muslim Brotherhood has been included in the talks. To exclude such groups is to invite the worst: see what happened in Algeria when the secular government refused to accept the result of the elections - a most horrible and bloody civil war ensued.Europe and the USA will do well to adopt a hands-off approach for the time being. But the continuing presence of Mubarak and perhaps also Suleiman for much longer, will not help to stabilise a still volatile and dangerous situation. Mon 07 Feb 2011 17:08:25 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=2#comment2 GH: "the former presidential candidate John McCain said he was scared to death the Muslim Brotherhood might gain power...""Hooded Boys From the 'Hood" - a favourite at 2012 Oscars? Mon 07 Feb 2011 17:05:10 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=1#comment1 GH: 'As a European summit drew to a close [...] in Brussels an official said "today we agreed no measures" and ennui settled on the corridors of the Justus Lipsius building like low-hanging mist.'It has settled there long time ago.And it looks like it would a tornado of free referenda in EU member-states to air the place properly and remove the Commissariat's stench. Mon 07 Feb 2011 17:02:15 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2011/02/democracy-lite_wont_do_for_egy.html?page=0#comment0 I am redefining my use of the word ´terrorism´Iran already fears its Facebook and Twitter young -- so it had better keep quiet ! Mon 07 Feb 2011 16:30:09 GMT+1