Comments for http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html en-gb 30 Sat 29 Aug 2015 21:46:14 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html Nik http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=99#comment187 """I have an question. Can anyone give me a set of coherent reasons why we should allow Greece, a corrupt and bankrupt state which has lied to every European about its financial situation for the last twenty years, to remain within the EU? Enquiring minds want to know. And I shall ignore any responses from Mr Nik. as some wise man said "When you argue with an idiot, onlookers tend to confuse you with the idiot"."""MacTurk you called me idiot when you cannot even develop a proper argument - I guess that is the level you acquired by living and socialising in Turkey, no wonder: myself there in my brief stay I stuck only to partying, womanising and the local cuisine, otherwise I would not be able to withstand the environment. You just showed your complete lack of level I think you are not pretending but you are really of average understanding but anyway I will give your answer just for the shake of it. Greece is as much corrupt as Britain or France. The difference is that for the Greek foreign installed (and often downright foreign even in origins, like little Jeffrey, son & grandson) political leadership to remain corrupt on top it had to cultivate widespread corruption at a multi-level fashion in the society of the country. The difference of Britain and France and Germany is that corruption there is institutionalised and tolerated, permitted (or wanted I would say) only at a banks & corporations level since the average people are not let to easily perform it unlike Greece. The fact that these EU countries have institutionalised corruption over the Greek widespread does not make them more right or more regulated. Do not even try to counter-argument cos I will drawn you in the pool of Siemens and Vinci scandals and we won't end here... every day we hear of yet one more scandal, this week we have the Betancourt scandal in France so you know how it goes. Take France, Germany & Britain out of the EU and perhaps remain with the duo Sweden and Finland who seem to fare a bit better in these terms why not.... and then you can join this amazing democratic and regulated country that called itself Turkey. Wow!Wake up MacTurk. The country you love is the country of genocide. It still slaighters its own citizens. It is a barbaric, violent society that in the recent past has slaughtered 4 million people expulsing violently other 3 million and went on to pongrom all remnants, then start killing its muslim minorities - if anyone can call 20 million Kurds a minority!!!Whatever you think of it, however you might sell it to us, your lies do not convince.186. At 9:31pm on 24 Jun 2010, generalissimofranco wrote:@181 Nik"""The present Turkish foreign policy which (among other things) is aimed at the establishment of hegemony over the Eastern Mediterranean is going to counteract the US/NATO policy in the Middle East. If things go that way, the present frictions between Ankara and Tel Aviv may gradually develop into an irreversible intergovernmental conflict. Consequently, the chances of the adhesion of Ankara to the EU will diminish even more."""It would be great fan to see how Turks perform in a war against Israel missing the US-British support they enjoyed since 90 years now. And they would deserve every single catastrophe inflicted on them for it is them both as a state and as a society that seek trouble, not others.But won't see any of that. The current re-islamisation of Turkey is well within the US plan for the greater area. Turkey's anti-Israel stance is just a front, so as that it gains the support of all muslims and re-make Turkey the Ottoman-like leader of muslims. It is well within the US plan cos the US plans to use yet once again Turkey in the greater area. Given the current aggressiveness of Turks, some form of war might be inevitable in the next 20-30 years and the EU better prepare for it by nullifying Turkey forcing it to bend to Russian (quite fair) demands rather than leaving it getting inflated on US free arms and cheap anti-Israel bravado.Done genocide, done pongroms, invaded countries, ethnically cleansed, dropped napalms over its citizens, threatens with wars all its neighbours... what else do you want in the list?Turkey was and still is one of the most rogue state in the world. End of story. Mon 28 Jun 2010 10:57:59 GMT+1 cool_brush_work http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=98#comment186 Re #185I've a couple of questions for You, too:"..hubris..": Do tell us all DemocThreat when You are in the throes of Your 'arrogant pride' at being snide, jeering, contemptuous of the 'english-speaking peoples' do You get excited - - because You know sometimes it really reads as if that's what gets You off!?"..delusion of the fanatic..": Do tell us all DemocThreat when You are bestriding the Blog with Your 'excessive and often misguided enthusiasm' to rid the World of the 'english-speaking peoples' does it never occur to You the "..delusion" and "..stupidity" are all wrapped up in Your own inane, repetetive contributions!?'Look deep within Yourself democThreat', do You suppose the discomfort You feel with the World as it is, stems from Your sense of failure to be a recognised part of it?Why "Y"? Is no question: 'Yet it shall come for me to do thee good. I had a thing to say -- but let it go.' Mon 28 Jun 2010 09:54:06 GMT+1 generalissimofranco http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=98#comment185 @181 NikThe present Turkish foreign policy which (among other things) is aimed at the establishment of hegemony over the Eastern Mediterranean is going to counteract the US/NATO policy in the Middle East. If things go that way, the present frictions between Ankara and Tel Aviv may gradually develop into an irreversible intergovernmental conflict. Consequently, the chances of the adhesion of Ankara to the EU will diminish even more. Thu 24 Jun 2010 20:31:18 GMT+1 democracythreat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=97#comment184 CBW, I have a couple of quick questions for you.Firstly, why do you capitalize the "y" whenever you type "you" or "your"?Secondly, do you suppose that unrequited love can burn ever brighter unto death, fueled only by its own passion?Whether you believe what I say is not important to either of us, but this idea you carry around with you like a medal of honour, that your thinly veiled nationalism contains even the slightest trace of intellectual worth, is pure hubris. It is precisely the delusion of the fanatic which allows him to mistake the fact of his own stupidity. The delusion and the stupidity travel together: they are different aspects of the same confused mind, but they are not the same thing.Look deep within yourself, CBW. Do you think big brother really loves you? Thu 24 Jun 2010 14:25:31 GMT+1 MacTurk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=97#comment183 "When Turkey has indeed reached 'zero problems with their neighbours', things may be reconsidered", When will Spain have zero problems with its fellow EU member states? Gibraltar comes to mind. As for "There should be no need for Spaniards to emigrate now, since there is no dictatorship. Voluntary economic migration inside the EU still implies uprooting from the local community, including close family, and this is, IMO, not easy in Spain". A lot of Spains's problems arise from a labour market which is far too rigid, and the same goes for France. Like France, the Spanish labour market can be split in two; a minority with very well-paid and secure jobs(basically unsackable), and the vast majority, including the young and migrants, who can only get short-term contracts. I did not say that uprooting yourself is easy, but sitting on your backside waiting for the work to come to you is not a great option either. and I speak as one who had to uproot himself some 20 years ago, and is now on country number seven.There is a process of raising the bar higher and higher for Turkish accession. First, they were too poor. When Bulgaria and Romania were admitted, Turkey's per-capita GNP was approximately twice that of either. Now smroet would insist on a veto based on their foriegn policy? The Schengen criteria are the valid criteria for entry. Anyone who has watched Turkey for the last 15 years can tell you that it is a society going through traumatic changes. It is also much more open than before, and public opinion matters in a way that would have been inconceivable in 19996. Then, everyone was waiting for the next coup. Now the armed forces have been moved progressively out of politics. Turkey is like most countries, it is dynamic, not static, and the momentum is towards more democracy, and much more sensible economics. One minor thing that really gets up the noses of our bankrupt friends in the Hellenic Republic is the number of international commentators who keep telling them that they really could learn a lot from current Turkish policies. In the last three world economic crises, the Turkish economy and currency collapsed. This time, Turkey has come through the crisis like Poland; strong and growing. DurstigerMann(177), I have to agree with you about the general ineptitude shown by most European governments about immigration policy - or lack of any thinking about the need for such policy. I also fully agree that anyone moving to another country should show a commitment to learning the language. Sweden seems to have quite a good policy in place about this. As for paying welfare to someone who has never worked in their new country, and who refuses to learn German, that is insane. It seems, from my readings of the German and Turkish media, that the young male German-Turks have developed a culture that regards success in school as being not really "Turkish". This is in total contrast to the vast majority of Turkey's urban population, which is obsessed with education. And most of the population is urban now. I also have to agree with you about Turkish ghettos. Leads to introspection and defining yourself as the polar opposite of "The Others". Have you ever compared the Turkish edition of "Hurriyet" with the German edition? The German edition is incredibly over-the-top nationalistic. Re Gheryando(121) ""Extrapolating demographic trends into the future cannot be done with any degree of certainty" In this case, that's BS". No, it is not. Any straight-line extrapolation of demographic trends will nearly always be proved wrong. I referred to the fears about China's boomimg population before. Other examples are;a) Estonia experienced two baby boom recently, the first just after independence from the USSR(euphoria is the factor?), the second in the period 2004-06, which may have been related to large increases in child support payments. b) Tunisia spent a lot of money on extending education to its girls, and the result is that birth rates there have dropped to 1.71 per reproductive female, or lower. The previous figure was over 4.5.c) Ireland in the 1840's had a population of more than 6 million. After the Famine, and with continuous emigration, the population declined. By 1961, the figure was 2.8 million, and the publishing industry was busy churning out titles like "The Irish - A Vanishing Nation". Changes in economic policy, and EU accession reduced net out-migration, and now the population is some 4.5 million. So, if you increase female education, you change the demographic future. If you change government policy, as in Estonia or Ireland, you change the demographic future. If you reverse migration flows, you change the demographic future. and that is why it is NOT BS to say that you cannot extrapolate demographic trends into the future with any certainty. First and foremost, because you are talking about human beings, and humans respond to changes in complex and unpredictable ways.All we can say about Turkey is that it has probably gone through the second stage of the classical demographic transition experienced by most developing countries, and is possibly into the third stage, where populations stabilise or decline slightly.I have an question. Can anyone give me a set of coherent reasons why we should allow Greece, a corrupt and bankrupt state which has lied to every European about its financial situation for the last twenty years, to remain within the EU? Enquiring minds want to know. And I shall ignore any responses from Mr Nik. as some wise man said "When you argue with an idiot, onlookers tend to confuse you with the idiot". Thu 24 Jun 2010 10:35:19 GMT+1 Freeman http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=96#comment182 " Just a day or two ago Fundimentalist Muslims were demonstrating in Britain to have Sharia law" And we have had groups demonstrating for the right to walk like Dirty Desmond (Oompah noise optional) but it ain't gonna happen. ^^ Thu 24 Jun 2010 10:27:39 GMT+1 Huaimek http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=96#comment181 I cannot understand why successive British PMs favour Turkey joining the EU ; unless it is an indirect way of causing the EU to break up ,or to upset France and Germany .However secular the government tries to keep Turkey , once Turks have a free run of The Schengen countries and Britain , they will be claiming their Muslim rites . Just a day or two ago Fundimentalist Muslims were demonstrating in Britain to have Sharia law . Multi multiracialism , multiculturism and religious intolerance , do not work in a kindly Christian , secular , tolerant society .The European Union has become Globalism , the global economy , banks , big business and politics . It is not good to have Turkey , bordering Europe turning eastward to Russia , Arab countries , or China ; there is no thought of what social and cultural harm it may do to Christian Europe .What has happened to the Union of European peoples , to unite and make a better place for every European to live together in peace and harmony ?That has all been ditched for globalist moneterism .The only reason for keeping the EU going is for all those overpaid bureaucrats and yesmen euro MPs . Sack the lot and let's start again . Thu 24 Jun 2010 09:03:25 GMT+1 Nik http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=95#comment180 General, the issue is not even that. I want someone to tell me why on earth does Europe needs to be subject to muslim illegal or marginally legal forced immigration. Then I want someone to explain to me why Europeans would have any particular reason to get Turkey in the EU. Why Turkey and not Egypt? Why not Syria or Iran? And why on earth out of all the EU countries it is just the US-affiliated UK that shouts in favour of that?Isn't the above a defacto proof of what I say or not? Of course it is, it is just none of the British wants to admit. Thu 24 Jun 2010 08:09:57 GMT+1 generalissimofranco http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=95#comment179 @ 173 PowermeerkatGeneralissimo:“Re: "I strongly support the stance of Berlin/Paris about their unwillingness for the adhesion of Turkey to the UE."Powermeerkat:“Spoken like true Bulgarian.A real asset to EUSSR judging by your past.Now, about that small Turkish minority in Bulgaria.... :”Generalissimo:United Europe is not a public park where every dirty dig can walk through and p….One should successfully pass a test before entering that part of the globe, no matter whether he comes from the Eastern or the Western part of the continent. (The US authorities still are building, for the same reasons, a high wall along the border with Mexico, thus preventing the illegal immigration from entering your second motherland).The Turkish minority here is OK. It’s omnipresent in the National Parliament, in the European Parliament, in the local authorities in the country, etc. Wed 23 Jun 2010 20:00:51 GMT+1 Nik http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=94#comment178 147. At 8:16pm on 22 Jun 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:MacTurk @120,Re Nik: did I not say that I from my personal experiences I like Turkey and the Turks far more than (modern*) Greece and the (modern*) Greeks?(* not to be confused with the ancients who gave us western civilisation).We talk of today and we talk about Greeks. When we talk of ancient times you will talk of ancient Greeks but that is not our issue. Ancient Greeks gave you absolutely nothing for the simple reason that 10th century Germany, France & Britain was basically about the same as barbaric as in the 3rd century B.C. It was Byzantine Greeks that gave your western civilisation but subsequently you preferred to forget these embarassing memories and pretended to have taken everything directly by ancient Romans and ancient Greeks using your timemachine.Next time refer to Greeks do it with precise timescales, reference to different tribes, dialects, states, leaderships, please... though I guess your education on these matters is far from being sufficient to go down to that detail. Don't try this at home.By the way talking about civilisation and culture, have you ever compared the cultural output of Greece and your country, per population, per income and per genocide and catastrophe occurred in each of the two countries? Perhaps the educational level of populations? Today? 100 years back? Don't do it. Nasty-Nik says you will find evil surprises.---------------------------------------------------------------------------12. At 12:41pm on 21 Jun 2010, Gheryando wrote:“”””So, I'm "screaming" - - yeah right - - whereas You & the mad-greek are just saying it as it is! Next time You see an Albanian I hope You'll remember to hold Your wallet close and Your unprincipled opinions even closer!””””Whatever. I talk statistics, you keep talking on 1 on 1 base which is not correct. Have you asked the Greeks, Italians, Serbians, Bulgarians (the people who live next to Albanian populations) to tell you their experience? Perhaps your arbitrary opinion counts more than their first hand experience. And how do you explain the fact that Albanians openly admit that they are more prone to crime than other cultures? What is so bad about saying it? And why does it have to apply to individual cases? Really, your totalitarian absolutism of the either totally black (unacceptable lie) or totally white (ridiculous lie) is quite funny. Wed 23 Jun 2010 15:01:33 GMT+1 Nik http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=94#comment177 · 146. At 8:10pm on 22 Jun 2010, MaxSceptic wrote:MacTurk @105,“””I have worked and Traveled in Turkey and with Turks - and had, overall, a great time - and do have some appreciation of Turkish history and its peoples.”””I had great time in Turkey too including a lovely affair. That will not change my criticism for the country, which I tell them in their face if the issue arrives. Especially to those Turks that try selling cheap se-culo-friendship. You can't imagine how easy you can unmask them. You only need to interrogate them on what happens in their country if a citizen wants to find out what happend to 4 million christians that dissapeared from the face of the world between 1912 and 1923. They answer various things like:- What happened? Nothing happened.- And thus thus nothing happens now.- ...(silence)...or the more elaborate:- Yeah, yeah, something happened but it was war you know- But in 1890 (start of Armenian genocide, 200,000 slaughtered) and 1912 (start of Greek genocide... by 1916, 500,000 slaughtered) there was no such particular war related to the slaughters- Yeah, what can I say? I do not know.- Evidently you do not know. The question is do you want to learn?- ....(silence)(to which I you tell them)or the more vengeful one (all time favourite)!!!:- Yes they happened because christians had rebelled and that is what happens. Christians had rebelled and then Greeks invaded and killed 500,000 Turks.- There were never any 500,000 Turks ever claimed even by your most lying sources and there were never found any clues for more Turkish victims than a small rural city. The totality of 300,000 muslims from Greece came intact to Turkey. Do you have any stories of your grandparents to tell the opposite? Obviously not. There was no resistance of christian populations prior to the point when genocides were well underway. The Greek army enterred only 3 years after 500,000 Greeks (350,000 pontians, 150,000 Ionians) were already genocided. The activities of the Greek army were strictly military and provoked the loss of anything between 20,000 and 35,000 civilian Turks a large percentage of whom occured actually during the clearing of Tsetes villages (Turkish irregular soldiers who operated strictly from within civilian areas as it was their standard practice). Muslim populations elsewhere remained intact including inside Smyrna. So how do even the killings of even 40,000 Turkish civilian deaths in the course of battles compare to the death of 4 million civilians whose design and implementation predates all wars and who happened overwhelmingly in peace conditions?- It doesn't matter the numbers, christians should not move, it was your fault you earned what you deserved.- Really? I guess what you admit now is that your turn might come one day isn't it? And when it comes, you give full justification to us to treat you as you treated us isn't it?- ...(silence)... then... Come if you dare, do you?- Well, it was not me that called 2 minutes ago for friendship but you, isn't it?- ...Eeeeee... (silence)... “”””I maintain that while many, many millions of Turks favour the move to secular liberal-democracy, many more don't.””””Wrong.1) Do you know how many years in prison you will eat if you dare talk about the Greek & Armenian & Assyrochaldean genocides in Turkey?2) Do you know what is the possinbility of you remaining in life after speaking in public on such?3) Do you know that no1&2 are absolutely fine with the vast majority of Turks?Millions of Turks favour a perfectly caste-like society where sunnite kemalist Turks rule with the implicit aid of bektashis & alevis (who better keep it low profile by the way) over re-islamified (thus de-natured) Kurds. Years back they pongromed the last remnants of christian populations as well as they are still proud of the great genocides of the beginning of the 20th century as much as Hitler was proud of his.Does that sound secular to you?“””We shall, therefore, have to agree to disagree.””””I guess so. But it is me defending basic human values. You defend the right of societies to commit genocide and form caste societies.“””Meanwhile, until there is no doubt about this matter, most EU nations will directly (i.e. honestly) or indirectly (i.e sneakily) ensure that Turkey does not become a member state.”””I guess you would prefer to ignore the massive will of European citizens. Wed 23 Jun 2010 14:44:05 GMT+1 DurstigerMann http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=93#comment176 @175 MacTurk"Regarding the "people who would like to leave Turkey and escape to nations where they can live their antiquated traditions", there are not that many left, due the rapid urbanization of the country. Also, they did not leave to "live their antiquated traditions", they left because Germany asked, no begged, them to move, and because the economic pull was strong. They did not create the situation, Germany did. It is basically your responsibility, ab initio.How can there be a constant influx, when you stated that the German government has cut off all avenues of immigration? "Absolutely true. I never meant to say that European society did a good job in integrating people. The Turks also have a huge disadvantage others don`t have: they are so many that they can form ghettos and shut themselves off.Our immigration policy in Germany was a huge failure for the most part of the last 40 years and the way I see it from other nations within Europe, they are no different.We imported unqualified industrial workforce and gave them no incentive to integrate or learn the language and culture properly. The effect is a more radically islamic and hostile 3rd generation.We allowed them to bring along their families, to marry partners from their homeland and bring them here and were willing to grant them social welfare. The immigration issue came up a few times as people began to notice a shift in demographics and the building of ghettos, but nothing happened. An overly tolerant Europe set no rules for decades and expected the immigrants to acquire and accept our values on their own. But here is where you have to draw a line.Only specific groups did not accept our values and missed to use their chances for education. Others used it. Of course, this is a generalization. Half of my friends in school were German born Turks or Russians. But as I said, one statistic may not be accurate, but a lot of statistics can draw a general picture.And this picture tells me that we have been far too tolerant towards intolerance.If a non-citizen does not behave, this is not our fault. Our responsibility would be to show them the limit of our tolerance within the possibilities of our rule of law.And wellfare as well as other benefits for non-citizens who never worked in the country is just absurd.The influx you asked about is through marriage. Muslim families liked (and still do, it just got harder) to pre-arrange marriage of their children with traditionally raised cousins or other relatives as well as people from the same area and transfer those new partners to Germany.The German state will pay welfare for these new partners who cannot speak German or even know what`s going on here.Experience shows that those new husbands and wifes often share antiquated views and will often either not learn German by own decision or because they are not allowed to.It`s a common way to marry daughters raised in Germany - who are statistically much more likely to accept our way of life than their brothers - in order to chain them to the antiquated life they would like to escape from.Notably, the immigrants from Iran, who are also muslims, are a completely different story. They are well integrated in general. Wed 23 Jun 2010 13:10:51 GMT+1 DurstigerMann http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=93#comment175 @174 powermeerkat"Right. One small mistake of no consequeces."Yep, that mistake had no real consequences. Other things had:You probably know folks like von Schleicher and von Papen or the Empowering Act of 33.Failures all along the way ;) Wed 23 Jun 2010 12:27:42 GMT+1 MacTurk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=92#comment174 Powermeercat(163,169 and 170) has unfortunately gone to the "argumentum ad Hitlerum", which would indicate that he has no real arguments. There are all sorts of arguments about the positive and negatives of "Jus sanguinis", and the absence of birthright citizenship in Germany, as mentioned by DurstigerMann. Reducing it to Hitler is silly, and means no-one will take you seriously.And ad hominem attacks on the President of Turkey show an equal lack of ideas.DurstigerMann, neither you nor I can see 50 years into the future. The current situation in Turkey is that the country is generating jobs, and is therefore more attractive to stay in. Regarding the "people who would like to leave Turkey and escape to nations where they can live their antiquated traditions", there are not that many left, due the rapid urbanization of the country. Also, they did not leave to "live their antiquated traditions", they left because Germany asked, no begged, them to move, and because the economic pull was strong. They did not create the situation, Germany did. It is basically your responsibility, ab initio.How can there be a constant influx, when you stated that the German government has cut off all avenues of immigration? Also, What happened to "Kinder, stat Inder"? Wed 23 Jun 2010 12:08:47 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=92#comment173 DurstigerMann wrote:@163 powermeerkat"Could you, please, remind us then how certain Adolf Hitler, an Austrian, managed to become a German Chancellor of a worldwide fame?"One mistake doesn`t invalidate a system.Right. One small mistake of no consequeces. Wed 23 Jun 2010 11:23:50 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=91#comment172 Re: "I strongly support the stance of Berlin/Paris about their unwillingness for the adhesion of Turkey to the UE."Spoken like true Bulgarian.A real asset to EUSSR judging by your past. Now, about that small Turkish minority in Bulgaria.... :) Wed 23 Jun 2010 11:21:47 GMT+1 DurstigerMann http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=90#comment171 @167 MacTurk"DurstigerMann, what I am trying to say is that you cannot judge modern Turkey by the behaviour of Turkish migrants in Germany who are desperately clinging to the customs of villages they left forty or fifty years ago. "I am not juding modern day Turkey. That was my point after all.I wanted to communicate the real reason why Turkey will never enter the EU as long as there is a significant amount of people who would like to leave Turkey and escape to nations where they can live their antiquated traditions. There has been a constant influx of old-fashioned people from the East of Turkey for decades, so it is not a wild guess that where those came frome, there are still more."As for the comment "We are at the limit", why then are so many cities in the eastern Lander planning to reduce the housing count and allow large tracts of land to revert to nature? "I talked about the limit of capacity in terms of migration."then maybe it is time to recruit more German-Turks into your police forces? "I am not opposed to that idea. More police in general would be good for all our major cities.Again: I have nothing against friendly, open-minded Turks who play by the rules. And despite the grim picture I drew, there are quite a few of those folks in Germany and Europe as a whole.Education is only secondary to me. It is no secret that terrorist organizations recruit their people from British universities.Education is no proof that you ever accepted the values of your new home.It will take decades to form a good society out of the immigrants we already have. And that is why I see no Turkey entering the EU within the next 50 years. Wed 23 Jun 2010 11:07:10 GMT+1 DurstigerMann http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=90#comment170 @164 powermeerkat"OSSIES? :)"WESSIE ;) Wed 23 Jun 2010 10:41:27 GMT+1 DurstigerMann http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=89#comment169 @163 powermeerkat"Could you, please, remind us then how certain Adolf Hitler, an Austrian, managed to become a German Chancellor of a worldwide fame?"One mistake doesn`t invalidate a system Wed 23 Jun 2010 10:37:08 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=89#comment168 "Every week, more than 5,000 people move to Istanbul from rural areas, and the same situation applies to Ankara..."For example certain Mr. Gul has moved to Ankara from Kayseri couple of years ago and he still acts like a peon.Just like this Erdo...Erba...,whatchamacallit? [At the rate things are going pretty soon Wet Burka Contests may be banned. :(] Wed 23 Jun 2010 10:19:16 GMT+1 generalissimofranco http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=88#comment167 @153 DurstingerMann“You cannot disconnect the topic of Turkey and the EU with the immigration issues in say Germany. Germany is the biggest nation in the EU and has the biggest Turkish community as well.”“We are at the limit. There are areas in Germany (e.g. in Berlin and Frankfurt) where I, as a German, cannot go alone safely anymore.”When the critical mass goes beyond the limit, there is an explosion. I strongly support the stance of Berlin/Paris about their unwillingness for the adhesion of Turkey to the UE. We have a Muslim minority here, and, we still maintain with continuous effort the balance between the orthodox majority (over 85%) and the Muslim minority (less than 10%) which has always been supported by Ankara. The problem is first of all cultural. Old Europe is still a strongpoint of the Christianity. The migrants who come from the East are much better treated in Germany, in Spain, etc. In the second place, there is a visible shift in Turkey from the secular principles of ruling the country (it inherited from Kemal Ataturk in the early 20s of the last century) to some unacceptable, almost discriminating stance not only against what remained of the non Muslim ethicises there, but also to all those local intellectuals, public servants, military men, etc., who openly disagree with the present “moderate” pro-Islamic Turkish leadership. Wed 23 Jun 2010 10:08:21 GMT+1 MacTurk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=88#comment166 DurstigerMann, what I am trying to say is that you cannot judge modern Turkey by the behaviour of Turkish migrants in Germany who are desperately clinging to the customs of villages they left forty or fifty years ago. Turkey now is going through the same process that Ireland went through after joining the EEC. The population is now overwhelmingly urban, where it was mostly rural. The focus of economic activity is now industrial/post-industrial, as opposed to agricultural. It was quite traumatic for Ireland, and is traumatic for Turkey also. Every week, more than 5,000 people move to Istanbul from rural areas, and the same situation applies to Ankara, Izmir, Konya, etc. The Turks in Germany are being very true to a Turkey that does not exist anymore for the majority of Turks. As for the comment "We are at the limit", why then are so many cities in the eastern Lander planning to reduce the housing count and allow large tracts of land to revert to nature? Re "There are areas in Germany (e.g. in Berlin and Frankfurt) where I, as a German, cannot go alone safely anymore)", then maybe it is time to recruit more German-Turks into your police forces? I was in Berlin for a weekend last month, and found it to be a wonderful place. Very clean, mostly, and great public transport. And felt very safe there, which is more than I can say for Boston or London the last time I was there.And you are missing the point about migration, which is as follows: If the Turkish economy continues to boom, then there is NO push factor driving people to move to Germany.In any case, given that what modern economies need is people with brains, education and a work ethic, and that most current EU member states' birthrates are not at replacment levels, it may become necessary to offer incentives to get Turkish young people to move from their country. People only move if they feel it is necessary. To uproot yourself from your language, family, friends and culture is not done on a whim. And if the Turkish economy continues to strengthen, then Germany, France and other countries may have to go begging for qualified labour. Again, ten years is a long time. And no sensible politician removes policy options without a good reason. So, I repeat, "Never say Never". Wed 23 Jun 2010 09:40:31 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=87#comment165 Re Nik: did I not say that I from my personal experiences I like Turkey and the Turks far more than (modern*) Greece and the (modern*) Greeks?(* not to be confused with the ancients who gave us western civilisation).Max, I IS not exactly a chicken but you're entering a very dangerous territory.Next thing you'll say nobody knows wha FYROM is, but everybody knows what Macedonia is and Nick the Greek is going to simply pummel ya.[DONT' SAY YOU HAVEN'T BEEN DULY WARNED!]BTW. Came back from Greece merely couple od days ago: Greeks are gouging prices in Athens (incl. Pireus), and on Mykonos, Santorini, Rodos, etc., as if there were no tomorrow.[ and perhaps it isnt't as far as they are concerned]]P.S. Orpheus was actually Bulgarian not Greek.[He hailed from Rodopy Mountains]Now, can any Bulgarian here come to my rescue? Pronto? :) Wed 23 Jun 2010 09:27:44 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=87#comment164 This post has been Removed Wed 23 Jun 2010 09:17:30 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=86#comment163 Re "There are areas in Germany (e.g. in Berlin and Frankfurt) where I, as a German, cannot go alone safely anymore)."OSSIES? :) Wed 23 Jun 2010 09:06:57 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=86#comment162 Durstiger Man opined [re exploited Turkish Gastarbeiters in BRD] :"And thank god we have no citizenship by birth in Germany."Could you, please, remind us then how certain Adolf Hitler, an Austrian, managed to become a German Chancellor of a worldwide fame?Or at least - notoriety? Wed 23 Jun 2010 09:05:35 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=85#comment161 eniagigante wrote:"Ok, we all know you're not a modern day Shakespeare""IS THIS A DAGGER WHICH I SEE BEFORE ME?" Or merely a thuggard, mangey witch? [toil and trouble] Wed 23 Jun 2010 08:57:29 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=85#comment160 "Will Your Grace deign to grant me the North American Viceroyship?"Japanese, particularly older ones, remember with respect and genuine fondness its general governor -Douglas McArthur.Summarily fired later by a certain petty haberdasher without a vision, just like another feisty general, McChrystal, is about to get fired by a certain labour lawyer who couldn't tell M-16's barrel from its butt even if it hit him. On his empty skull. :( Wed 23 Jun 2010 08:52:28 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=84#comment159 This post has been Removed Wed 23 Jun 2010 08:44:10 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=84#comment158 Max Sceptic wrote: "Meanwhile, until there is no doubt about this matter, most EU nations will directly (i.e. honestly) or indirectly (i.e sneakily) ensure that Turkey does not become a member state."Turkey will not not be allowed to join EUSSR. Ever. Merkel and Sarko will see to it. Period.BTW. I've been telling for years anybody in Ankara who cared to listen that Turkey's place is at a helm of Confederation of oil/gas-rich Turkic states [Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, etc.]The reaction in the past was polite smiles and some nods.Recently, however, the response has been much more enthusiastic.What's more important, my view was favourably received in Astana, and Baku, and... ;) Please, contact me re the issue in 10 years time. :) Wed 23 Jun 2010 08:27:05 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=83#comment157 140. At 7:02pm on 22 Jun 2010, Gheryando wrote:"don't mate me"Oh god...you lot remind of certain divas of the France team.Don't you feel even a little sorry for the Greek team? :) Wed 23 Jun 2010 08:15:01 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=82#comment156 "EUpris: It is 76 million [Turks] today. It will be more tomorrow."It's 1.4 billion Chinese versus 140 million Russians occupying historic Manchuria and E. Turkestan. It will be more tomorrow.It's close to 1 billion Hindus having territorial claims on PRC.It will easily surpass Chinese population in less than 20 years.Now, let's talk degenerate, decaying, shrinking EUSSR... Wed 23 Jun 2010 08:12:28 GMT+1 Huaimek http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=82#comment155 #2 PowermeerkatIn " British Schoolboy terms " you mean SPUNK . Wed 23 Jun 2010 03:37:40 GMT+1 lacerniagigante http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=81#comment154 Re 116. At 12:00pm on 22 Jun 2010, EUprisoner209456731 wrote:"84. At 08:23am on 22 Jun 2010, democracythreat wrote:"THE CAMEL IS THE HORSE DESIGNED BY A COMMITTEE"EUpris: The "EU" is a committee designed by a camel."The EU is a committee about to be redesigned by a cameron. (Or is that a cameleon that suddenly changed his colours and turned from an election campaigns europhobe into a "practical" europhile... Someone needs support for their faltering economy?) Tue 22 Jun 2010 21:48:33 GMT+1 lacerniagigante http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=81#comment153 80. At 07:44am on 22 Jun 2010, powermeerkat wrote:"THE CAMEL IS THE HORSE DESIGNED BY A COMMITTEE."Ok, we all know you're not a modern day Shakespeare when it comes to your quote repertoire, but this one beats them all.Come think about it a camel is much more useful than a horse. Tue 22 Jun 2010 21:45:57 GMT+1 DurstigerMann http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=80#comment152 @132 MacTurk"I said nothing about the Turkish population in Germany, for the simple reason that I know nothing about them, beyond the fact that they would have had integration problems moving to any large city in Turkey, never mind Germany. It would also be fair to say that Germany, with its citizenship based on "Jus sanguinis", as opposed to most countries, where "Jus solis" is the norm, did not make integration easy. And yes, I know things have changed a little recently, to make citizenship easier."You cannot disconnect the topic of Turkey and the EU with the immigration issues in say Germany. Germany is the biggest nation in the EU and has the biggest Turkish community as well.No other migrant group produces the problems we see with muslims across Europe. It is sad that I even have to say "the muslims", etc. But the statistics draw a genera picture which is quite clear.And thank god we have no citizenship by birth in Germany."A lot of educated Turks tend to regard the Turks residing in Germany as a bit embarrassing. The German-resident Turks quite often cling to customs from their villages of forty years ago, which very few people in modern Turkey maintain or even remember. In many ways, they are as much foreigners in Turkey as in Germany."And they come to Europe, because their antiquated way of life finds more acceptance in our goody two-shoes societies."I should point out that the idea that 76million Turks are going to move en masse to other European countries is laughable. Most of them have a hard time moving more than 10km away from their mothers. Seriously, migration always has a push component(like no work opportunities in country of origin) and a pull factor(history and/or family network). Turkey's economy now is doing very well, and no-one knows how it will be in ten years. If the economy is doing well, they may need to import labour."I am not talking about 76 million people migrating. Even 5% of that is much more than Europe could handle right now. We are at the limit. There are areas in Germany (e.g. in Berlin and Frankfurt) where I, as a German, cannot go alone safely anymore).Germany already put a halt on immigration in order to stop the influx. Even marriage immigration (a favourite of the Turkish and Arab community in order to marry their kin to traditionally raised people from their home nations which will ensure isolation in their new contries as well as more welfare costs for that country as well) was shut down.I didn`t write my first reply to insult Turkey, but the truth needs to be understood. Unless Turkey as a whole manages to develop into a modern society, there will be no EU-membership for Turkey.Some people might find my views on this extreme. Living in Asia and experiencing immigration issues first and second hand there dramatically changed my view on this.My Asian friends laugh at how Germany caresses her criminal and/or unemployed foreigners.And I better not tell them about Scandinavia or GB or they might die from a shock. Tue 22 Jun 2010 21:32:15 GMT+1 lacerniagigante http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=80#comment151 Re 85. At 08:25am on 22 Jun 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:Thanks for your criticism. But I must admit that your post is a bit hard to follow.Just for the record. I'm not Spanish, I was just trying to follow Hewitt's argument by putting myself in the shoes of a Spaniard. I don't understand what you mean by being nationalistic.As far as I'm concerned elected politicians are (in theory) just people who get some kind of majority to do a job.They do decide my taxes (and yours, assuming you're a good citizen and pay your share), so in a sense I am told what to do (and you too, by the way).PS: If you want to engage in something more than a monologue, try to keep your posts a bit shorter and more to the point. Tue 22 Jun 2010 21:05:52 GMT+1 cool_brush_work http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=79#comment150 Re #142, #143 & #144So, I'm "screaming" - - yeah right - - whereas You & the mad-greek are just saying it as it is!Next time You see an Albanian I hope You'll remember to hold Your wallet close and Your unprincipled opinions even closer!Mind, I think You will have to say which country the kids were from: I mean, You will want to inform us all how an incident in Your youth revealed an entire people in Your eyes as not Your equal!Okay, enough: I admit to being shocked & saddened by Your lack of reason & compassion/humanity on this issue: You had me fooled with previous content.At least from now on we'll both know exactly from which side of the 'ever closer union' we're viewing the World. Tue 22 Jun 2010 20:36:41 GMT+1 Gheryando http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=79#comment149 @MilwaukeeRay"You gawt it!" Tue 22 Jun 2010 20:32:19 GMT+1 MilwaukeeRay http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=78#comment148 12. At 12:41pm on 21 Jun 2010, Gheryando wrote:"Also, this is why the best form of government is the "benevolent dictatorship". I propose myself as holy roman emperor? Any objections?" I have no objections, Your Highness. Will Your Grace deign to grant me the North American Viceroyship? Tue 22 Jun 2010 20:07:38 GMT+1 Gheryando http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=78#comment147 I echoe MaxSceptic's account.I have lots of good Turkish friends who you couldn't tell from another European youth. However, they themselves claim that they do not represent the majority and are largely a product of the Istanbul elite. Tue 22 Jun 2010 19:22:49 GMT+1 MaxSceptic http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=77#comment146 MacTurk @120,Re Nik: did I not say that I from my personal experiences I like Turkey and the Turks far more than (modern*) Greece and the (modern*) Greeks?(* not to be confused with the ancients who gave us western civilisation). Tue 22 Jun 2010 19:16:14 GMT+1 MaxSceptic http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=77#comment145 MacTurk @105,I have worked and Traveled in Turkey and with Turks - and had, overall, a great time - and do have some appreciation of Turkish history and its peoples.I maintain that while many, many millions of Turks favour the move to secular liberal-democracy, many more don't.We shall, therefore, have to agree to disagree.Meanwhile, until there is no doubt about this matter, most EU nations will directly (i.e. honestly) or indirectly (i.e sneakily) ensure that Turkey does not become a member state. Tue 22 Jun 2010 19:10:09 GMT+1 MaxSceptic http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=76#comment144 powermeerkat @79 wrote:"But, IMHO, this too shall pass."Inshallah!But, alas, I don't think it will pass in this century.... Tue 22 Jun 2010 18:57:57 GMT+1 Gheryando http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=76#comment143 I don't think I'll have to tell you where they were from? Is that enough "backing up" for you dear cbw? Tue 22 Jun 2010 18:12:26 GMT+1 Gheryando http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=75#comment142 In my referred post I stated that when I was in High School, a kid I knew got drugged and thrown in the river where he drowned. Tue 22 Jun 2010 18:11:03 GMT+1 Gheryando http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=75#comment141 "be prepared to back up Your self. "Thats what I'm doing. All you're doing is screaming. Tue 22 Jun 2010 18:09:10 GMT+1 Gheryando http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=74#comment140 cbw - for your level of education, I'd expect more than this "holier-than-thou" approach. Giving qualified support to an argument posted my Nick without resorting to racism is absolutely fair game. You obviously enjoy being offended and play drama-queen. I don't know if you've read my now 'referred' (for whatever reason) post but I simply stated that most of immigrants from that (and other) countries have shockingly high percentages of crimes in that country committed by them.This is a fact and there is no disputing it or calling it racism. Don't be a simpleton and stand up for something that is not even at stake. Tue 22 Jun 2010 18:08:10 GMT+1 Gheryando http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=73#comment139 "don't mate me"Oh god...you lot remind of certain divas of the France team.Its a rhetorical saying, I've never met you, anyway. I might as well have said: "cmon dude", but since this is a British forum I adhere to British sayings. Tue 22 Jun 2010 18:02:37 GMT+1 cool_brush_work http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=73#comment138 Baloney - - Don't 'mate' me, if You're going to align Yourself with the mad-greek's prejudices & xenophobic remarks be prepared to back up Your self. Dress it up any way You want, but the greek regularly writes vile racist comments and today has been no exception: You go along with it if that's Your level, but count me out. Tue 22 Jun 2010 17:44:31 GMT+1 Gheryando http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=72#comment137 "That You claim to be a 'pro-EU' person and write in such condemnatory manner about fellow EUropeans also reveals IMO how feeble is the 'ever closer union' mantra at the heart of the Brussels-behemoth."So if I write badly about non-Europeans what am I? Anti-World? Anti-UN?Also, you seem to suggest that being "pro-EU" means accepting anything that comes out of the EU. Now thats - - BALONEY!Cmon mate.. Tue 22 Jun 2010 17:35:51 GMT+1 Gheryando http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=72#comment136 This post has been Removed Tue 22 Jun 2010 17:32:12 GMT+1 cool_brush_work http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=71#comment135 GheryandoRe #133No, sorry, I disagree entirely: The Italian, Greek, France, British, Timbucktoo... experience confirm only that prejudice is alive and well! It is utter nonsense and blatant racism to brand entire peoples for the faults/sins/crimes of some of them.From You, I expected better: That You join with the mad-greek illustrates how far & wide prejudice can easily spread on nothing but assumption, innuendo & spurious limited knowledge.It is about as accurate as those 'pro-EU' who write on here Britons who are 'anti-EU' are all believers in imperialism - - in other words - - BALONEY!That You claim to be a 'pro-EU' person and write in such condemnatory manner about fellow EUropeans also reveals IMO how feeble is the 'ever closer union' mantra at the heart of the Brussels-behemoth. Tue 22 Jun 2010 17:24:02 GMT+1 Nik http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=71#comment134 This post has been Removed Tue 22 Jun 2010 17:06:55 GMT+1 Gheryando http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=70#comment133 "131. At 5:08pm on 22 Jun 2010, ChrisArta wrote:I want Zapatero now!Macho Klegg/Cameron lied to me before the election about the VAT!I want a referendum on the UK budhet now!"lol Tue 22 Jun 2010 16:54:53 GMT+1 Gheryando http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=70#comment132 "130. At 4:49pm on 22 Jun 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:Re #123What ever the life I may get/have it is infinitely more capable of appreciating the basic crude theme in these 2 statements:*** "Albanians are No1 thieves and worse.."****** "Albanians themselves accept the fact that are No1 thieves before anyone else saying so."***Ignorance: Plain, simple, enedifying ignorance."The Italian experience unfortunatly confirms much of what Nik said. Tue 22 Jun 2010 16:54:11 GMT+1 MacTurk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=69#comment131 DurstigerMann has written "We already have enormous problems with our Turks and a majority amongst them which is unwilling to integrate in general". I said nothing about the Turkish population in Germany, for the simple reason that I know nothing about them, beyond the fact that they would have had integration problems moving to any large city in Turkey, never mind Germany. It would also be fair to say that Germany, with its citizenship based on "Jus sanguinis", as opposed to most countries, where "Jus solis" is the norm, did not make integration easy. And yes, I know things have changed a little recently, to make citizenship easier.A lot of educated Turks tend to regard the Turks residing in Germany as a bit embarrassing. The German-resident Turks quite often cling to customs from their villages of forty years ago, which very few people in modern Turkey maintain or even remember. In many ways, they are as much foreigners in Turkey as in Germany. I should point out that the idea that 76million Turks are going to move en masse to other European countries is laughable. Most of them have a hard time moving more than 10km away from their mothers. Seriously, migration always has a push component(like no work opportunities in country of origin) and a pull factor(history and/or family network). Turkey's economy now is doing very well, and no-one knows how it will be in ten years. If the economy is doing well, they may need to import labour. Regarding Mr Nik , I can say that his recent responses have copper-fastened my points about his snobbery and insecurity. Point made, no further response necessary. I am not Turkish, but lived there for ten years and speak the language quite well. Hence, I know that Turkey is the country which has the lowest positive view of the USA in the world, and if Mr Nik ever did any research, as opposed to his recyclng of hyper-nationalistic nonsense, he would know that too. However, under no circumstances am I a "mate" of the silly little racist called Nik. Tue 22 Jun 2010 16:13:00 GMT+1 Chris http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=69#comment130 I want Zapatero now!Macho Klegg/Cameron lied to me before the election about the VAT!I want a referendum on the UK budhet now! Tue 22 Jun 2010 16:08:35 GMT+1 cool_brush_work http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=68#comment129 Re #123What ever the life I may get/have it is infinitely more capable of appreciating the basic crude theme in these 2 statements:*** "Albanians are No1 thieves and worse.."****** "Albanians themselves accept the fact that are No1 thieves before anyone else saying so."***Ignorance: Plain, simple, enedifying ignorance. Tue 22 Jun 2010 15:49:43 GMT+1 Nik http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=68#comment128 """"Another statistic states that of the German welfare recepients between 18-24 y/o, 65% are Turkish or Arab.""""Let me do some analysis on that. As per a quick view at wikipedia (and I hope figures are right), muslims in Germany (mostly Turks, Kurds, Arabs in numerical sequance) are 5,4% of the overall population. For simplicity let them be 5%.To be fair, given the double demographics, the 18-24% age group in Germany should contain muslims at 10%.So 10% of the age group 18-24% eats the 65% of social welfare? That means that a young muslim is not 2ice, not 3 times, not 4 times, not 5 times but 6,5 times more prone to get linked to social welfare than the rest average of Germans (which includes other non German people too). 6 (and a half!) times! It is enormous! Impressive. Honestly I am impressed.What will be the justification? Again the pill of racism? How can anyone claim racism? Nobody told these people to work as university professors. These people are told, based on their obvious lack of education, to be workers & cleaners and do all the respectable maybe yet manual jobs someone who spent his years specialising in something particular won't be so attracted to do.So why don't they work? All that in a country with relative lower unemployment rates than other countries.I said repeatedly that it is time to cut all social benefits and time to give the equivalent of ticket-restaurant. Time to sort out the riff-raff. Who wants to integrate, let him integrate, who wants to sit down and eat give him food-tickets to eat. But he won't have any money for Nintendos, Nikes, or old BMWs... if he thinks he can steal them rather than working for them, then prison, anyway the cost will be the same (it will be just food...).This applies to everyone and targets no-one. If anyone thinks it targets anyone then he is actually crying over lost benefits at the expense of others. Tue 22 Jun 2010 15:42:44 GMT+1 Nik http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=67#comment127 Wow! Missed this excellent one by smroet:68. At 10:35pm on 21 Jun 2010, smroet wrote:"""#55 powermeerkat"""....Inquiring minds want to know. Yes, they want to know several things about Turkey, and the cause you defend.""""Ehehehe... indeed! What is the Anglosaxon cause to defend Turkey really? Do not expect them to tell you it is all about containing Russia, controlling the access to the Black sea and having a basis that covers both Middle East and Caucasus? Of course not."""1) A non-elected EEC commission president, Walter Hallstein, signed the association agreement between the EEC and Turkey in 1963......Turkey's application to the EU was deposited in 1987."""Wow! And what Turks managed to achieve in the mean time eh? Pongroms agains the remaining tiny christian populations, total ethnic cleansing of Turkey, invasion of Cyprus and ethnic cleansing of half the island including the slaughter of 3,000 POWs, then the cleansing of Kurds with Napalm bombs etc. And then they accuse Europeans of being racist for not wanting them inside!""""2). There is a well known tension between the current 'Islamic' government and the army....and encourages (emboldens, some would say) 'moderate Islamic' forces, with the results we see w.r.t. Gaza.""""First of all if by secular you mean the Kemalists (and the vast majority of secular Turks were Kemalists), these are effectively the youngturks, a fascist movement that perpetrated three parallel genocides totalling 4 million dead and 3 million ethnically cleansed under worst conditions. Those secular Turks know very well what they did, between them they are proud of it, internationally they deny all. Kemalism is all about having legislation to deny everything from the above that taints their image and it punishes people with years of imprisonment. People who kill for someone attacking their flag for any reason (and then given medals by the state) = these are the Kemalists, are NOT secular and NOT moderate. Kemalism = turkish version of Nazism.Second, the majority of Turks remained always islamic. What happens today is that they are coming back to surface benefiting from increased demographics in relation to Kemalists. A huge reason for even so called "secular/moderate" Turks, see Kemalists, to accept some form of revival of islamism in Turkey is that islamism is their only hope against the rising Kurdish population: 1 in 4 in Turkey is a Kurd. In future possibly 1 in 3. Hence, they prefer the Kurdish islamic than ethnic.3). I indeed remarked several times about the British policy... tainted by its imperialist past and present (the sovereign base areas on Cyprus).British common people have no affection for Turks and are against. British politics are traditionally pro-Turkish and that is the same for some centuries now. Why? The word Russia should be a sufficient explanation for you."""4). As argued by Simon Tisdall in the Guardian, Turkey's current policy of 'zero problems with its neighbours' is not going anywhere...""""Simply because Turkey's 0 problems policy means simply an aggressive attack to pressure all its neighbours accept obediently all its arrogant and expansionist demands (using the US hand of course). It can't work simply because Turkey will find out new demands to ask. It is the opposite of a self-fulfiling prophecy, i.e. Turks will do everything possible NOT to reach it! Tue 22 Jun 2010 14:58:17 GMT+1 Nik http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=67#comment126 105. At 10:13am on 22 Jun 2010, MacTurk wrote:""""Re 22(MaxSceptic) why would Turkey's admission to the EU mean the suicide of the EU? Even if they were admitted tomorrow, the Turkish population is about 76million, which would be about 15% of the new enlarged EU. Whence comes suicide? Or is this part of the septic myth that all Muslims are part of a monolithic plan to Islamisize the world and spend their days planning jihad?""""You are a Turk. In what world you leave mate? helloooooo??? Turkey is the beloved child of US. Why on earth would EU put inside yet another US agent? We have UK and Poland, and that creates already enormous complications. No thanks, we won't take.""""Most Turks are like anyone else; they want a chance to build a life, they want their kids to have a good education, and hence better lives, and they would like a reasonably predictable life.""""So what? Why would Europeans care about you? Why not care about the Syrians? Why not Indonesians? Why do Turks care about anythign to do with Europeans??????? (tell this to anyone to make him laugh!!!)."""They like to drink raki(ouzo), the government makes and sells beer in competition with several private sector firms, and some 20% of the population is Alevi, not Muslim at all.""""Alevi and Bektashi and the rest.... which are of course are religious communities mostly derived of ancient islamised (usually under force) christian populations and who are still persecuted in many ways in Turkey even today... You can't just go out and tell you are an Alevi just like that. Some months ago, yet another Alevi club was attacked by fanatical sounnis. Police will mostly be half-hearted in their efforts to do anything about it. I guess at least they do not participate in beating these people like they did with christians in the past. Oh... but there are not any christians nowadays in Turkey. Sorry, almost forgot that in 1910 40% of Minor Asian population where christians. Tell us about it please!""""Given that Turkey will not get in for at least ten years, and it will be a vastly different country then, the best policy is probably "Never say never". In ten years, Europe might well have need of a big dynamic economy with a large well-educated workforce.""""EU has the most educated workforce right now in the world, they would not expect Turks to acquire one!!!!!EU is in absolutely no need of any extra workers either, they are looking forward to get rid of some, given the unemployment rates.Turkey has nothing particular to provide other than its geographic location. But it would be much simpler to get in the EU Lebanon and Syria than Turkey. Too much hassle for little. It serves Europeans better to treat Turkey as an outside market than being inside.""""...In Britain you elect MP's to take decisions for you, not to hold a plebiscite every five minutes on issues of burning concern to ...well, not many people actually.""""There are issues of concern to people which are not discussed ever and on which governments take monolithic decisions in dictatorial fashion. That is the problem of almost all modern representative democracies (i.e. Republics).""""Turkey a member in ten years, please, along with the Ukraine and the Balkans. And could the English please have their debate and referendum, then either in or out.""""Let the British have their referendum (I say pleeease here..). But can I ask you 1 question?Why on earth do you want to enter the EU? Why? Are you A Turk born in Germany and it would simplify your travel back and forth between the 2 countries by having 1 currency? What is it exactly? Why?After saying whatever, please go on to explain to me why Turkey should be in the EU ahead of Syria. Tue 22 Jun 2010 14:31:49 GMT+1 Chris http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=66#comment125 I want my referedum I didn't vote for our government to make such a ridiculous budget! and they call it "fair"I want Zapatero to govern the UK not just Spain!!I demand a referedum on the budget now! Tue 22 Jun 2010 14:24:27 GMT+1 cool_brush_work http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=65#comment124 DemocThreat Re #92For a very long time I tried to see beyond the snide & singularly self-flagellating '..avoid english people like the plague' comments as I had a notion You were trying to get across some points of certain value elsewhere in Your contributions.I gave up.Let's be clear on this: I don't believe You. IMO You don't personally recall that 'suicide' at all!'Officer & a Gentleman' was a good film in its day and that is about as close as You ever got to anything involving a 'uniform'.Try to remember You are the one who once wrote about Your experience of the Marshall Plan just post-WW2 when giving me a lecture on 'justicio' etc. And another time You are in your late 30s and then early 40s...Let's just get this clear: I don't believe a word of it: And after Your recent disgraceful attacks on the British & Jewish people (& Americans) I am even less inclined to give You the benefit of the doubt on any matter of substance.You can keep Your prejudices for those who want to pander to Your psuedo-intellectual style: I'm not falling for it anymore.In short: Switzerland's gain IMO is no loss by any means to the rest of us. Tue 22 Jun 2010 14:20:05 GMT+1 DurstigerMann http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=65#comment123 @104 MacTurk"Re 22(MaxSceptic) why would Turkey's admission to the EU mean the suicide of the EU? Even if they were admitted tomorrow, the Turkish population is about 76million, which would be about 15% of the new enlarged EU. Whence comes suicide? Or is this part of the septic myth that all Muslims are part of a monolithic plan to Islamisize the world and spend their days planning jihad?"It`s not really about jihad. We also need to finally admit that human rights in Turkey are only used as an argument in order to keep Turkey out, while the real reason is much more simple:Europe has had enough of muslim immigration.We already have enormous problems with our Turks and a majority amongst them which is unwilling to integrate in general.Should the EU accept Turkey and open borders, we will see an enormous influx of migrants into the Turkish communities in the more wealthy nations and all efforts to shut off marriage migration (which is also a form of welfare migration) would have been for nothing."Most Turks are like anyone else; they want a chance to build a life, they want their kids to have a good education, and hence better lives, and they would like a reasonably predictable life. They like to drink raki(ouzo), the government makes and sells beer in competition with several private sector firms, and some 20% of the population is Alevi, not Muslim at all."While I understand that the migrants are not representative of what most Turkish people are like, their refusal to give their children a good education is evident. Statistics in Germany show that the percentage of young Turks and Arabs who manage to get "Abitur" (qualification to enter university) is less than half of the Germans and 1/3 of the Asian immigrants.Another statistic states that of the German welfare recepients between 18-24 y/o, 65% are Turkish or Arab."Given that Turkey will not get in for at least ten years, and it will be a vastly different country then, the best policy is probably "Never say never". In ten years, Europe might well have need of a big dynamic economy with a large well-educated workforce."You will not get in unless you take all people within Turkey with you in forming a modern society. Europe does not want welfare immigrants who are not willing to integrate anymore. And unless this issue is solved, Turkey will not be allowed into the EU.And I`d say that it`s the best for both sides. Tue 22 Jun 2010 14:14:27 GMT+1 Nik http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=64#comment122 109. At 10:34am on 22 Jun 2010, cool_brush_work wrote:NikRe #101Quote, "..Albanians are No1 thieves and worse.. and Pakistanis just like Albanians.."Are You for real?Get a life CBW. Welcome to the real world. Albanians themselves accept the fact that are No1 thieves before anyone else saying so. From their introduction in Greece in 1992 up to 1995 and while still back then the 5% of the population in Greece they had managed to increase the theft rates by 4 times (arguably with some aid of Georgians and other Caucasians...). Of course much of it was due to their back then destitute situation and the exploitation of Greek bosses (and back then it was first of all those Greek criminal bosses that employed black-hand Albanians - funnily the worst of the one nation employed the worst of the other, as the first Albanians that arrived in Greece were often escaped Albanian prisoners...). But still the situation has not been levelled and Albanians never really reached the average crime rates of locals. Many Albainans are aware of that and some of them try to avoid speaking of this and a few of them are in several occasions even ashamed of admitting they are from Albania...(and there is no social pressure to do so in Greece, anyway an Albanian physically is very different to a Greek and stands out).The fact that in Albanian culture, theft is commoplace, is something widely accepted by Albanians themselves and frankly a lot of them actually boast about it. Ask the Bulgarians who live next to Albanians to tell you, ask the Serbians. It is not any secret.So learn a thing or two before pearching me. And next time you erupt in this as-if antifascist hysteria look first from what utterly racist and fascist background you come yourself.""""Does it never, ever occur to You there many millions of Albanians, Pakistanis, Turks & every other peoples on earth who just want a decent life for themselves & their families? They try to do their best, make the best of things in adverse circumstances, just as You have described You have had to do on occasion!?""""Everyone strive for the best. What he esteems as best about himself. I do the same, you do the same, Albanians do the same. So? What does it have to do with what I say?I did not steal. I did not even get social benefits. I was being self-supported from past economies and actually brought really a lot of money in the local economy of the country I installed and consumed much of it so as to avoid living in inappropriate suburbs (personally I never had fear of "suburb people", but I did fear for my woman). I never asked to become a citizen and I do not care, perhaps it is the EU thingie that makes me not needing it, but even so I would never lie either to locals or to myself pretending whatever. Despite all that, locals think I am much more integrated than other people who are 2nd & 3rd generation. Perhaps for the same reasons I myself see Portuguese people more integrated than Algerians & Moroccans. Now go ask yourself why."""What is wrong with You? Where do You get the colossal nerve to label everyone else as inadequate compared to You!?"""There is nothing wrong with me. There is something wrong with you who refuse to face the reality of the world. The fact that Albanians are No1 thieves does not mean that all Albanians are thieves. It means that in Albanian culture, being a thieve is something more casual than in German or French cultures. Mind you, I neve denied the thief-tedencies of us Greeks who due to our Ottoman past were very versed in theft - for God's shake, our revolution heros were the Kleftes, i.e. Thieves. Ottomans were seeing them as common bandits. Difference among Greek bandits and Albanian bandits is that Greek bandits were born out of a certain social necessity had a certain background - proven by the fact that they combatted Turks & Turkalbanians even when heavily outnumbered. Albanian bandits were traditoinally of the sort of looters attacking armless villages and avoiding all confrontation with armed locals unless heavily outnumbering them. There are 100s of stories to bring to evidence of that , permit me to spare you the details. This looting tradition of Albanians continued well into the 20th century, it was present in WWII - ask the Italians and has of course lived through communism, up to our days and can be verified by EVERY SINGLE NATION that hosted a sizeable Albanian population. For God's shake, ask the US police who know about what they call "Albania mafia", ask the UK police what happened after the influx of the first Kosovars (they didn't tell you, would they?), ask the Italians, ask all other Balcan nations. How on earth is it possible if it is not true statistically?""""Yes, there are thieves, yes there are murderers, and yes, I recall You fulminating about 'foreign students' getting beat-up by Brits etc.. What in the name of commonsense makes You think none of those things could be applied to You and Your Greek Citizens if we all just took anecdotal experiences as the deciding factor!?""""Greeks are racist too. But they won't loot your house if they despise you. Ask the Germans. Greeks that went to Germany were our working class. They must had been of the Greeks the most prone to steal and kill. In the heyday of Greek emmigration they were up to 350,000 Greeks in Germany. Now go ask the Germans to tell you how much trouble they had with Greeks (they must had some, how much I ignore...).""""E.g. Every Greek is a rascist!""""Of course, just like anybody else (including Albanians! come to Balkans to meet them, you are invited!!!) I just said it above. But a Greek's racism never meant 20 million Indians starving to death... if you know what I mean. Nor that he would loot your house for not liking you. There are cultures (and Greek is not the only one in this - by no means I say so...) that do not work that way.""""Now, there's a NOT original thought obviously escaped Your attention.""""Calling yourself logical when you refuse the experience of US police, UK police with Albanians and Kosovars, when you refuse the first hand experience of Italians (who are equally admitting of their tedency to theft - US records for example speak of it), the experience of Greeks (who are equally admitting of their tedency to theft - neutral US records speak of increased criminality on Greeks but mostly very low level theft and "rapes" - only that most such rapes recorded back in 1910 were all about Greek men sleeping with absolutely willing and happy to do so US born women... it is a bad tradition of Greeks to sleep at will with other peoples' wifes...weak point indeed...), the experience of Serbians and Bulgarians... etc.So all these people according to you are wrong and you are right.Get back to basics: different cultures present differnt reactions to similar situations. None said Albanians are predestined to be always thieves. They can change. But given their recent history, and current status and the way they integrated into what they call "the west", gave them actually more ground to continue that behaviour at a statistically noticeable rate. Again this does not mean that this cannot change. And it does not mean that all Albanians are into it... far from that. It just means that if you take 300,000 Albanians living in Greece and 300,000 Greeks living in Germany there is an extraordinary difference in the crime rate of the two populations despite the similar conditions (and in several terms Albanians in Greece of 1990s had it 10 times better than Greeks in Germany of 1950s).That does nto mean that Greeks are anyhow predestined to be better than Albanians. It just means that different cultures react differently. When Greek army enterred Minor Asia Turks, it was said to be there to protect christians from the genocide commited by the Turks which had exterminated already half a million Greeks (of course it was there because the British said so but that is another story). Yet the Greek army had shot dead Greek soldiers that tried to help local Greeks avenge the death of their people killing known muslim families that actively participated in the crimes. That does not mean that Greeks did not do acts of revenge on Turks for their hideous crimes but the killings were minimal (low estimates are 10,000 muslim civilians killed, high estimates are 35,000 but the latter includes mostly the Tsetes' villages in where the guerillas would hide after harassing the Greek army) which are pale figures in front of the 500,000 Greek civilians slaughtered from 1912 to 1917 alone, to reach an overall 1,5 milllion slaugtered by 1923.Turks would simply shoot dead their soldiers that refused to kill armless Greek citizens (not to say the worst...). At the same time Greeks did absolutely nothing to the 300,000 remaining muslims of Greece and simply forced them to go to Turkey - many of them even managed to... sell their properties (no matter if at a low price.. imagine.. they were not hurt, they even sold their properties!!!). Turks pongromed Greeks in Istanbul killing scores of them and kicked all the 250,000 strong community, then they ethnically cleansed half the island of Cyprus, yet there is not a single muslim of the initially tiny community of 60,000 muslims that was ever hurt who rose to be today more than 200,000 people.Understood?That account for a huge difference of perception of treatment of the other in a similar situation.Understood?As said, different cultures, different reactions to similar problems. If you deny that, you go against common logic.Understood?Hehe... I think you understood. Now, unless you come back to me with full figures proving to me that all that notion about Albanians being thieves and bandits is exaggerated and that Albanians have the same criminal rates with other populations I will laugh-off (new phrasal verb!) any other such eruption of yours.Ehehehe... dear CBW, you have fallen in the wrong person to argue. I almost pity you (in the good sense)! Tue 22 Jun 2010 14:08:16 GMT+1 smroet http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=64#comment121 #105 MacTurk... something like 200,000 Spaniards DID learn German and French (in the so-wonderful time of Franco)... I hope you see the difference between the Franco time (a dictatorship the legacy of which is still present today), and the Zapatero time (just another democratic government). There should be no need for Spaniards to emigrate now, since there is no dictatorship. Voluntary economic migration inside the EU still implies uprooting from the local community, including close family, and this is, IMO, not easy in Spain.As for Turkey and Europe, I am now reading Erasmus about the 'war with the Turks', and agree with his assessment. See also my previous post above (#68), and a post here. When Turkey has indeed reached 'zero problems with their neighbours', things may be reconsidered. Tue 22 Jun 2010 13:49:59 GMT+1 Gheryando http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=63#comment120 "Extrapolating demographic trends into the future cannot be done with any degree of certainty"In this case, thats BS. Tue 22 Jun 2010 13:14:21 GMT+1 MacTurk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=63#comment119 "EUpris: It is 76 million today. It will be more tomorrow". Extrapolating demographic trends into the future cannot be done with any degree of certainty. People used to worry about China's population exploding, now the concern is the large drop in China's population due in the next twenty years, due to the lack of marriageable females.Re Nik, I have to agree with cool_brush_work, he really is a tedious little racist, and a very insecure snob also, it would seem. No-one is quite up to his standards, living in his little Slavophile bubble. As the teacher said, "Needs to get out a little more". Tue 22 Jun 2010 12:53:15 GMT+1 Gheryando http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=62#comment118 Dtyou obviously haven't been to China or India, the factories of the world.Otherwise you'd know that the workers there doing manual work are all 6 foot 3 and on a high-protein, low-carb diet. Tue 22 Jun 2010 12:45:16 GMT+1 generalissimofranco http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=62#comment117 @99 Threnodio_III thank you for the detailed comment. I agree that we should assess the contribution of the French philosophers in the light of the present realities.Further to your wording of the consequences of the Russian revolution of 1917, I accepted without any objection, I must add another very, very negative result which is still evident here, in the East: many people of my generation still believe that the state is fully responsible of their fate, of the way they should earn their living, etc. If we add to that the so called ‘auto censorship’ when we should discuss openly some important public issue /which is another heritage of the previous regime/, one can imagine how shy and non productive is the mentality of millions and millions of well educated and disciplined citizens of all those countries, situated east of Germany.By the way, I shall be glad to chat with you in English, or in French on the Smolensk forum. I found there interesting bloggers. The main discussion concerns the crash of the Polish president two months ago, though other, shall I say, domestic issues are discussed.I have little knowledge in the history of the English revolution, though I somehow admire the contribution of Cromwell to the abolishment of the absolute monarchy in England. Regards Tue 22 Jun 2010 11:42:32 GMT+1 cool_brush_work http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=61#comment116 ThrenodioIIRe #110However, as King Charles I did not recall his brother's assent to the Crown of England (or Henry VIII & QEI reliance on Parliament) and as he displayed every intention of following the unrestrained despot monarchy of France and others those '26' years were very much needed.From the lessons of Cromwellian dictatorship emerged the understanding of the need of Parliamentary democracy. Tue 22 Jun 2010 11:25:53 GMT+1 EUprisoner209456731 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=61#comment115 84. At 08:23am on 22 Jun 2010, democracythreat wrote:"THE CAMEL IS THE HORSE DESIGNED BY A COMMITTEE"EUpris: The "EU" is a committee designed by a camel. Tue 22 Jun 2010 11:00:21 GMT+1 EUprisoner209456731 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=60#comment114 89. At 08:33am on 22 Jun 2010, powermeerkat wrote:" ...Inquiring minds want to know."EUpris: You make this assertion repeatedly. How do you know what other enquiring minds want to know? Tue 22 Jun 2010 10:58:14 GMT+1 EUprisoner209456731 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=60#comment113 90. At 08:44am on 22 Jun 2010, Mathiasen wrote:"To make the abolition of the common agriculture policy (CAP) a success criterion equals the idea of inviting everybody to a summit on Mars, a liberal Danish MEP has written to the foreign minister: One third will not appear, one third cannot afford it, and the last third appears only to see the people that have made such a mad proposal.The background is that Denmark in 2012 will chair the EU, and the minister plans to propose the abolition. If nothing else, the correspondence shows how important the CAP is in the EU."EUpris: And that is why the UK needs to leave the "EU" NOW! If the UK leaves the "EU" the CAP will be reformed because the rest will have less money with which to support parasite countries. Tue 22 Jun 2010 10:55:54 GMT+1 EUprisoner209456731 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=59#comment112 105. At 10:13am on 22 Jun 2010, MacTurk wrote:" .. why would Turkey's admission to the EU mean the suicide of the EU? Even if they were admitted tomorrow, the Turkish population is about 76million "EUpris: It is 76 million today. It will be more tomorrow. Tue 22 Jun 2010 10:51:34 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=59#comment111 Re #108 "from the safety of a neutral country." [Switzerland]Threnodio, please, tell that to Roman Polanski who was invited by the Swiss to Zurich to receive Life Achievement Award and was promptly arrested. ;) Tue 22 Jun 2010 10:09:56 GMT+1 Freeman http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=58#comment110 " just look at the period when British progress was put on hold during the nonsense which was the English Revolution which eventually took everyone back to square one."Not entirely as the Divine Right of Kings was quite rightly sealed away for all eternity with the return of Charles II. Constraints on the power of the monarch after Charles I monumental arrogance was a major step forward and the preceding years of the English Republic paved the way for what we now know as the United States of America. Tue 22 Jun 2010 10:00:36 GMT+1 threnodio_II http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=57#comment109 #107 - cool_brush_workAll of which could have been achieved without 26 years of civil war, the interregnum, 2 commonwealths and many thousands of lost lives had it not been for the folly of a few immoderates. In the minds of most ordinary folk, this was not a war about constitutional niceties. It was a straight forward religious conflict.The constitutional niceties were, as I said, put on hold for the duration. The constitutionl arrangements were facilitated by the Declaration of Breda after parliament enabled restoration. Had Charles I remembered that James I ascended the throne by invitation and accepted the supremacy of parliament instead of clinging to his unsustainable 'divine right' obsession, none of it would have been necessary. Tue 22 Jun 2010 09:44:05 GMT+1 cool_brush_work http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=57#comment108 NikRe #101Quote, "..Albanians are No1 thieves and worse.. and Pakistanis just like Albanians.."Are You for real?You come on these Blogs spouting all that utter, drivelling guff about how Greece & Greeks have been done down by every nation on earth and then You write that despicable garbage about other peoples!Does it never, ever occur to You there many millions of Albanians, Pakistanis, Turks & every other peoples on earth who just want a decent life for themselves & their families? They try to do their best, make the best of things in adverse circumstances, just as You have described You have had to do on occasion!?What is wrong with You? Where do You get the colossal nerve to label everyone else as inadequate compared to You!?Yes, there are thieves, yes there are murderers, and yes, I recall You fulminating about 'foreign students' getting beat-up by Brits etc.. What in the name of commonsense makes You think none of those things could be applied to You and Your Greek Citizens if we all just took anecdotal experiences as the deciding factor!? E.g. Every Greek is a rascist! Well, they must be - - I've read Your stuff, so there couldn't possibly be another version of the Greek people, could there!?Oh that's right! There is more to people than meets the eye of the beholder!Now, there's a NOT original thought obviously escaped Your attention. Tue 22 Jun 2010 09:34:45 GMT+1 threnodio_II http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=56#comment107 #101 - Nik"Re88: Sorry democracythreat, somehow I mixed it with powermeerkats and called you American".He is American but it is so much easier to lambaste the rest of us from the safety of a neutral country. Tue 22 Jun 2010 09:22:22 GMT+1 cool_brush_work http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=56#comment106 ThrenodioIIRe #99The "..nonsense which was the English Revolution.." led to the establishment of the principle of Parliamentary Government and the ending of any prospect of 'monarchial' supremacy.That, I would argue, is a fairly important advance in the affairs of Britons and 'west' Europeans/colonising Americans. Afterall, it took another 140+ years (post-Napoleonic) for France to catch-up on the idea.It is a common misconception & dare I say it a slightly lazy historical perspective to assert the return of King Charles II had everything put back as it was pre-1642.Charles Stuart returned in 1660 by the consent & at the invitation of Parliament. Soon after the Anglican Bishops were restored to Parliament and Commons & Lords though somewhat sifted for perceived worst 'anti-Royal'/'pro-Commonwealth' offenders became the back-bone that has for 300+ years been the measure of the 'English Democracy'. As such it is the period 1642-1660 is the antecedent of the hugely successful modern 'democratic' method adopted across the World. Tue 22 Jun 2010 09:20:08 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=55#comment105 Re #97 cool_brush_work wrote:"How low can one person get in their basic prejudice: Despite all the cruelty, insanity & uncivilised behaviour of the regime of the 'north'[N.Korea] he actually tries to use it against 'american/english' peoples."Relax. Both here and in HYS debates you'll find plenty of posters who'll support any ruthless dictator and defend any murderous totalitarian regime ( Burma, Cuba, Iran, Libya, N. Korea, PRC, Sudan, etc.) or a terrorist outfit (from al-Aqsa to Quds) for no other reason than because they think or hope they could cause problems for U.S., NATO or both.Take it easy. "Dogs bark - caravan proceeds""Those who can - do; those who can't - bark in court." :) Tue 22 Jun 2010 09:18:35 GMT+1 MacTurk http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=55#comment104 Re 22(MaxSceptic) why would Turkey's admission to the EU mean the suicide of the EU? Even if they were admitted tomorrow, the Turkish population is about 76million, which would be about 15% of the new enlarged EU. Whence comes suicide? Or is this part of the septic myth that all Muslims are part of a monolithic plan to Islamisize the world and spend their days planning jihad? Most Turks are like anyone else; they want a chance to build a life, they want their kids to have a good education, and hence better lives, and they would like a reasonably predictable life. They like to drink raki(ouzo), the government makes and sells beer in competition with several private sector firms, and some 20% of the population is Alevi, not Muslim at all. Given that Turkey will not get in for at least ten years, and it will be a vastly different country then, the best policy is probably "Never say never". In ten years, Europe might well have need of a big dynamic economy with a large well-educated workforce.Re smroet's comment(77)"Do you really expect that Spanish workers will learn e.g. German, and then migrate to Germany? In what kind of world do you live?", could I point out that something like 200,000 Spaniards DID learn German and French(in the so-wonderful time of Franco),and lived and worked in those countries? Not "just to please some distant bosses at the IMF preaching 'labour flexibility', but because they had to? People are generally more flexible than smroet understands. In terms of labour movement, I doubt the EU will ever become a carbon copy of the USA, but in my workplace there are people from at least seven EU member states, as well as three from candidate states. Would EUprisoner209456731 please use the mind he was given at birth? The comment that "They took the UK into the "EU" by lies and trickery. Given that this anti-democratic monstrosity is backed up by the organs of the mal-functioning British state, including Army and Police, it is basically by force" is specious nonsense, especially given the avowed purpose of the British Democratic system he champions so sturdily. In Britain you elect MP's to take decisions for you, not to hold a plebiscite every five minutes on issues of burning concern to ...well, not many people actually. The EU now, and the EEC then, does not and did not have any input into the command and control of the British Armed Forces, or the various constabularies. To pretend otherwise is, at best,self deceiving silliness. If there were any lies used, they were spoken by British politicians.Turkey a member in ten years, please, along with the Ukraine and the Balkans. And could the English please have their debate and referendum, then either in or out. Tue 22 Jun 2010 09:13:46 GMT+1 Nik http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=54#comment103 Note on 98: to be more fair and more accurate, muslims too have their differences thus they should not be banded. While there is a general tedency of them to look down upon manual jobs especially when it is under the direction of infidels, it is true that different muslim groups have different working ethics. Kurds and Turks are comparatevely more hard working and are technical jobs oriented. Egptians too have not the relative aversion that Algerians, Moroccans & Tynisians show upon manual jobs. However, even within Algerians for example, there are differences: the Kabyl people (totally different to Algerian Arab majority) have statistically less of a problem working in manual jobs.Mind you, I have worked with excellent workers from all those communities. One of the best ever workers I have ever worked were the Bulgarian muslims (these are only a religious community, they are basically slavic people). Very serious people and very hard working. Tue 22 Jun 2010 09:12:42 GMT+1 Nik http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=54#comment102 96. At 09:19am on 22 Jun 2010, powermeerkat wrote:"Turkey does not qualify [for EU membership] for it has unresolved problem with Kurds".I recall UK had an unresolved problems with N. Ireland, and the English still have an unresolved problem with Scotts.Just like France and Spain had unresolved problems with Basques (and still do), plus the Spaniards still have an unresolved problem with Catalans.Bulgaria - with its Turkish minority.Slovakia - with its Hungarian minority.Romania - with its Gypsy minority.And Belgium had (and still does) an unresolved problem with... itself. :)[for a moment I'll skip an unresolved problem German Wessies are having with German Ossies (or vice versa)]-----------------------------------------------------------------------Yes. Only that none of that long line of countries ever napalm-bombed its minorities, slaughtered more than 40,000 people, forbade their language in public (not in the last 100 years...) and cleared 1000 villages per year... Turks have a huge problem, they have themselves created. Kurds are not 1 not 2 not 2 not 4 not 5 million... they are rising up to almost 20 million people inside Turkey. 20 million. Count how many European countries are far from atteigning this number please? 1 in 4 Turkish citizens is a Kurd and soon it will be 1 in 3. Turks have created the issue and it is long overdue. At some point either Turks will have to radically change (and thus lose to them) or there will be collapse. Why do you think Turks love their re-islamisation? They simply know they cannot sell any more their "turkish fairytale" with impunity. They fear the Kurds and they prefer them becoming islamic than ethnic, just like they were 90 years ago when they used them as soldiers to do the genocide of Armenians (the genocide of Armenians was ordered by Turks but was mostly perpetraded by Kurds, somethign Kurds openly admit and many public figures of them have openly & very sincerely apologised to Armenians - the genocide of Greeks however was perpetrated by Turks themselves).So the issue of the huge Kurdish minority... well not minority, it is a majority in Eastern Anatolia cannot be equated to any Ottoman religious remnants in Bulgaria or British remnants in Northern Ireland. Tue 22 Jun 2010 09:01:28 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=53#comment101 Re #95 "I've met very few Americans that moved to South America that spoke any Spanish. For some reason, they all thought it was the South American populations job to speak English"I don't think it is a language barrier which accounts for very few U.S. citizens seeking gainful employment in South American countries.Nor do I see that inability to speak English prevents millions of Latin Americans from finding (illegal) jobs in El Norte. :) Tue 22 Jun 2010 08:55:21 GMT+1 Nik http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=53#comment100 Re88: Sorry democracythreat, somehow I mixed it with powermeerkats and called you American. But now I am even more perplexed as to your view about Spanish and Italian kids. I really cannot imagine where did you find those kids and if you fell to the exception. Because I happen to circulate in technical jobs and in 3 countries (let alone other visits elsewhere) and I see many sorts of people if not all sorts of people.Anyway, as I said, of all European kids, you can't find more spoiled kids than in Greece. They are the best raised but also most spoilt kids. Yet, there is absolutely no aversion to manual jobs and many of them will do them. However it is unthinkable for many Greek kids to work next to Albanians or Pakistanis if they have any other alternative, it is not the manual job, it is the social incompatibility. Albanians are no1 thiefs and worse and Pakistanis just like Albanians are equally bands - no local kid can trust. Still, all well paid manual jobs are done by local Greeks. Albanians soon developed an aversion to manual jobs as they started making their little companies employing Kurds and Pakistanis and there you find the workplace nightmares... It is just not any healthy environment for a local ro work. As soon as you find a region where not many foreigners are, all manual jobs are done by Greeks and there is absolutely no stigma for it, quite the opposite, Greeks (who think to know everything of course like I do here haha!) like to boast about their technical skills in doing house work, repairs etc.I told you I worked in my uni days (in UK) as a hotel functions barman. I also did other jobs, like working in the post which was less manual of course but then my one before last job was in the furnishment of a new Marriot Hotel. I remember asking the office ANY job, they had few things in my vicinity at the time and were reluctant to tell me about that, I told them I go. I went and the supervisor there was eyeing me (feeling I was not the short of people he usually had), asked me where I am from, told him from Greece, he told me "we have not many Greeks around", I told him that most Greeks in London are students and are coming from the upper middle and not rarely form the really upper social classes thus they have no need actually to do the job, told him also that I had no need to do the job too. He asked me what did I do, I told him I was post-graduate but had finished and had only the project to handle and that was just a matter of time and since it was beginning of summer and few people were around I was bored, I wanted to do whatever quick job to have some extra cash for the holidays, but I was not particularly pressed. He was impressed and he was buying me beers and at the end he noted me some hours more to get paid saying that I had done better job than the rest.I have told the story many times and I have never found ANY European laughing in contempt at it. And I did worse. When I came - for personal reasons, the wife, nothing to do with professional carreer - to northern Europe after having worked as an engineer in Greece I remained unemployed. And I ended up working in a kebap shop which is so often considered a kitch job, yet I say the story and people just laugh since they cannot think of me working there but really I haven't found anyone watching me in contempt. On the contrary I get appraising looks not only from the elder but also from the youth.Do not know. Down to the basics, you have to take into consideration a very large number of conditions to understand how and why people will react differently. Go and propose to an Italian to work for 600 euros black hand in a manual job next to Kurds and Pakistanis. You must be crazy to think he won't do the job. I would not do the job either myself, I am sorry, this is just modern slavery. But go and tell the unemployed Italian to work for 1500 euros in a respectable manual job, and he will jump on it. Much more fast than any muslim who will still count that his 1000 euros overall social benefit is much more convenient since on the sides he can black-trade an average of another 500 to 1000 euros...You have to put the price tag. The rest are details. Tue 22 Jun 2010 08:52:50 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=52#comment99 Let's not beat up on Spanish kids.According to a recent poll 50% of young Frenchmen (AND women) intend to study psychology and find jobs as psychologists.Sigmund Freud might have been proud.Adam Smith? Not so sure.Milton Friedman? :-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) Tue 22 Jun 2010 08:42:36 GMT+1 threnodio_II http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=52#comment98 #78 - generalissimofrancoWell yes but we need to remember the importance of these great philosophers in the context of modern thinking and the advent of modern democracy. What we must not do is confuse the philosophy with events on the ground.The French Revolution began with discontent amongst the bourgeois classes. The Bastille, when the mob took over, was nothing more than a few rioters releasing a handful of relatively unimportant people in a poorly guarded suburban jail. What it led to was the wholesale mindless massacre of as many people who could have been useful to France - intellectuals, property owners, investors and so on as could be managed. it degenerated into organised chaos and led directly to two major wars, the emergence of a petty dictator then ultimately restoration of the monarchy. Not exactly a model of democratic progress.I need hardly remind you where the Russian Revolution led - huge hopes for a new code of living gave way to monstrous blood letting, Leninist revisionism, Stalin and the gulags, the Cold War and ultimately collapse. Bloody revolution tends to open the door to extremists and the abandonment of the very 'reason' that Voltaire and Montesquieu were preaching. The American Revolution is a very rare exception to this rule.It is democracies which evolve over time which tend to survive. If you need an example of this, just look at the period when British progress was put on hold during the nonsense which was the English Revolution which eventually took everyone back to square one. Tue 22 Jun 2010 08:40:30 GMT+1 Nik http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=51#comment97 88. At 08:32am on 22 Jun 2010, democracythreat wrote:""""... Absolute horse feathers, with all due respect. There are indeed two reasons why Europeans from Spain can't travel around Europe and find work, but they have nothing to do with "national interest" or a lack of jobs.The two reasons are these:1. The spanish kids are very often too lazy and too class obsessed to work jobs they consider lower than themselves.2. They can't speak any language well except Spanish, and nobody else speaks spanish in Europe.""""Horse feathers? Donkey feathers mate. I have heard once too often this justification but it simply donkey feathers. The fact that Spanish kids are more diploma oriented does not mean that on the overall Spanish kids will not do the physical jobs, this is simply idiotic. You are blind NOT to see what is going on. I will take the example of Greece: the county with by far the most university graduates in EU. This is thrown upon kids that they won't work they won't do this they won't do that but it is simply lies.Until 94-95 when Georgians & Albanians and soon Kurds, Iraqis, Pakistanis etc. started arriving ALL manual jobs were done by Greeks. Greek youth did have the same educational orientation but still they would do the manual jobs. So what happened? Simply: the black hands enterred the market and dropped wages to a point so low which was equalled to slavery.You may boast of your manual job experience in your youth but would you boast it if you did it practically for free so that your boss could buy his new Mercedes? I do not think so. Greek kids and Spanish kids were smart enough to know what is the minimum price to do a job.But from a point on, what happened was that the immigrants enterring the manual professions, like it happens everywhere they soon develop mini-companies, black companies which employ strictly black hands, foreign people, mostly illegal immigrants. Practically there is no place for locals in these teams. Forget about legality, forget about social security, forget about security standards - put the locals who have a permanent address, families and such to work together with men often of criminal past, who have no permanent addresss and who have nothing to lose and you know the result. As for the US kids who work manually, I am yet to see white rednecks working on the same "black-hand-company" with illegal Latino immigrants. So spare us the social lessons.""""I'm sorry to be blunt, but I just got back from a week in Holland, and I met some unemployed folks. Some from Italy, some from Spain. They were all skinny, physically weak, poorly educated and massively lazy. And they all thought they were smarter than each other and the rest of the world too.""""Donkey feather again. Are Spanish and Italians so different to Portuguese? Cos in France Portuguese are the most sincere, the most hardworking people ever to have placed their foot in France. "Faire la mour" is a national joke (faire le mur = make the wall, faire l'amour = make love...). Still, though most of their kids go on to study (and have closed the gap with the average middle class French level) many of them even in the second generation are occupied with physical jobs (often in their parents professions etc.). I see a Portuguese, it is a guarantee for me. I cannot imagine Spanish being any different.What you say actually recalls mostly the muslims. There is no aversion of manual jobs in the Italian or Spanish mentality. It is in the muslim mentality. Now if Italians and Spanish in Holland are work class people living close to muslim neighbourhoods and seeing how muslims can evade all work living on social welfare there is absolutely nothing to tell to Spanish and Italians avoiding manual jobs if lowly paid jobs. You cannot expect them to be the victims, in fact I do condone their attitude, I would do the same.On the contrary you haven't gone to manual jobs which are rightly paid: I am an engineer and I am working in such environments in France, Belgium & Holland and I can tell you I see mainly locals and among foreigners its all about 2nd generation Portuguese, Spanish and Italians and from there on black Africans. The % of muslims in such jobs is simply insignificant to their % in society."""""This is a major issue: western European men are generally physically poor. I worked my way through college by loading and unloading trucks. Not proud work, not easy, but it paid the rent. None of the young people I spoke to this last week would do that. Some said they would, but you could tell they would never make it past the first shift. They are just too weak, too small physically, and the social stigma of manual work is too repulsive."""""If you studied in Europe and tried to work loading and unloading trucks, you had the risk to work for a black hand company employing illegal slave force thus you risked soon having a jealous co-worker enterring your flat stealing your television and laptop and if he found your girlfriend inside I spare the details... Spare us the moral lessons.""""And the funny thing was, there was one other lawyer with me, an American. Both of us were talking to all these Euro kids, about 20 years old. Now both the American and myself had done physical labour jobs in college, to pay for it.""""A very large percentage of European youth works throughour their studies too. However, many of them (especially from the club Med contries) have the support of parents (Greek kids are the most "spoiled"), then studying in Europe is cheaper than in US thus the pressure is less - most kids will try to find fewer hours of work and mostly around the university (thus most often in less manual jobs). For example in my Uni years, I worked as a barman of hotel functions (i.e. not in the standard bar but in the bar set for company dinners, parties etc.). It was quite a physical job as it included the setting of the mobile bar, the transfer of tons of alcohol (as the functions were from 200 to 1000 people etc.). But where I worked it was quite "class", 5 star hotel and we were a team of professional servers and undergrad & even post-grad students (well yes! the one brought the other, they tested us and they kept us). No "black hand" in the vicinity.""""...Not only did we both notice that all the young "men" we spoke to were too small and feeble to be of any use in labouring,""""What you mea nby small and feeble. The fact that Europeans are not FAT like Americans (who are beached whales) does not mean they are feeble. For your info, there is no physical job - at least on paper - that requires workers to manually lift more than 10kg. Any man can do that if he has to. Kids are thin and not trained because they are not into that kind of job. 2-3 months and they will get in form, there is no doubt about that. But it is not the manual that keeps many kids out, it is the horrid social environment around which is incompatible with them. As soon as the social environment becomes compatible you see plenty of them doing the job.""""we both also noticed that when we explained that we had both done these horrible jobs to pay for college, we received sneering looks down the noses of these drop outs, these no money having, non educated kids sneered at us, and were visibly embarrassed to be in the company of people who would admit to doing such common labouring, even in their remote past....""""""""Sure, western Europe has some physical guys and some hard workers. But they are sneered at by the majority. Most of them are immigrants or eastern europeans.""""It is true that Eastern Europeans are often having the manual jobs, exemplified by the Polish plumber (plumber = a very prized profession in western Europe and you might notice that is manned mostly by locals NOT foreign people, thus the fuss about the introduction of the Polish plumber...). But it is also a matter of culture: in eastern Europe till recently, education guaranteed often worse careers than manual or commercial jobs, thus it was often seen as a refuge for women (thus the disproportion between men & women in higher education there). As this changes, this notion changes rapidly.But talking about "other" immigrants you are blatantly wrong. Immigrants, espcially the muslim ones, will only work - black hands - in the first few months and as soon as they get social welfare they will jump on to official unemployment and try to gain some extra money here or there. Do a round in the "hoods" and you will notice the massive number of young men sitting around and refusing categorically to get any job that they consider inferior.""""Europe has massive problems because it's youth are often too proud, and often too physically weak, to do useful work.""""Wrong. What you describe me here is two things:1) Aversion of European kids to exploitation, black market and above all to negative social environments...2) Muslim immigrant culture which sometimes is spread partially to other groups (locals & european immigrants) residing next to them....Are you sure those you met were Italians & Spanish? Cos as a European I have sincere doubts that an American will do the effort to distinguish those Arabs that happen to look a bit more Mediterranean than Middle Eastern from Spanish & Italians. Let me remind you how many Greek tourists (Greeks tend to be unshaved in holidays...) get angry looks in US airports and how Europeans are embarassed when they travel in group, all of them passing and the US airport police retaining the Greek for more searching... let alone how many Greek priests have been attacked in US by wackos (the type of veteran Rambo...) for being "islamic terrorists". Tue 22 Jun 2010 08:33:13 GMT+1 cool_brush_work http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=51#comment96 powermeerkatRe #93Cannot say I agree with You quite a lot of the time, however, on this occasion Your logic simply exposes another's inadequacies.Must add, You are wasting Your time if You think anything You write will alter the closed mind of DemocThreat on the 'English-speaking peoples'.It is truly remarkable how persistent & consistent is DemocThreat's attack upon all things 'american/english': Even more remarkable such an astute contributor has singularly failed over the years to realise their arguments fall on every occasion precisely because of this xenophobic aversion to the 'english-speaking peoples'.Thus, as You so accurately point out the comparison of 'North' & 'South' Koreas defeats every other viewpoint: Nevertheless, this civilised resident of civilising & oh-so-comfortably off Switzerland, a legally trained mind & very knowledgeable person is so blinded by animosity to 'american/english'-ness of any sort he actually raises 'North Korea' as an example against 'anglo-saxon' influence! How low can one person get in their basic prejudice: Despite all the cruelty, insanity & uncivilised behaviour of the regime of the 'north' he actually tries to use it against 'american/english' peoples.Thus he joins the mad-greek (who argued the Burmese regime was right to protect Burmese peoples from the 'west' by imprisoning Sun Kyi) in the shame of notably outrageous, egregious contribution.It just doesn't get any more sad, preposterous & prejudiced than that! Tue 22 Jun 2010 08:26:01 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=50#comment95 "Turkey does not qualify [for EU membership] for it has unresolved problem with Kurds".I recall UK had an unresolved problems with N. Ireland, and the English still have an unresolved problem with Scotts.Just like France and Spain had unresolved problems with Basques (and still do), plus the Spaniards still have an unresolved problem with Catalans.Bulgaria - with its Turkish minority.Slovakia - with its Hungarian minority.Romania - with its Gypsy minority.And Belgium had (and still does) an unresolved problem with... itself. :)[for a moment I'll skip an unresolved problem German Wessies are having with German Ossies (or vice versa)] Tue 22 Jun 2010 08:19:04 GMT+1 Leo_Naphta http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=50#comment94 Democracythreat,Your diabetre there kind of reminded me of that song from Men In Tights, "We're men! Manly men!" You complain about them 'looking down their nose' at you, while cultivating this same feeling. It's quite funny. Also, the idea that you got any insight in the European psyche because you talked to a few college students is ridicilous. The idea that none of them would ever do manual labour cracks me up. All these Euro-kids. You talked to about 20, at most. Where? How did you meet them? How did you actually figure they were at any point representative for Europe as a whole? I met an Australian kid once that thought Berlin was in Asia, and complained that she messed up because Australia is so big and there's so much to learn about it. Do I now have to conclude some sort of stereotype about Australians? Oh, I know, Americans! Of all the talk about labour flexibility, I've met very few Americans that moved to South America that spoke any Spanish. For some reason, they all thought it was the South American populations job to speak English. Stereotypical conclusion ... Also, about labour mobility. The idea that no Spanish would ever immigrate is also, wrong. How do I know this? Because I keep falling over Spaniards that immigrated here. The EU makes this easier, possible but it's not going to be the US. The idea that the EU would in labour mobility directly mirror the US shows you have no realistic expectations about the world. The EU is not the US, that doesn't mean it's a failure as such. It's not going to be the perfect system anytime soon, that doesn't make it a failure as such either. It's something that was always going to be very difficult to introduce and get to work under any circumstances. Of course, I see that quitting is always easier. ;) Tue 22 Jun 2010 08:13:33 GMT+1 smroet http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=49#comment93 #87 opinionPerhaps you don't seem to get my point: most Spanish workers do not want to move to find jobs elsewhere. It would mean learning foreign languages (not all 23, of course, but English, French and/or German), and to uproot oneself culturally. Most people are not prepared to do this. Part of this is cultural: family ties are very strong in Spain. A part could be historical: the Spanish people who left Spain in the past did so because of the Franco regime, and the ones who staid never learned to move. A lot of young people in Spain get by because their parents help them out. High unemployment amongst young people in Spain has been around for quite some time, anyway. Tue 22 Jun 2010 08:09:37 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=48#comment92 If a threat to democracy has doubts whether North Korea has won or lost, let him visit the Kim Jong-il's GULAG before proceeding to South Korea.I doubt that after those visits any explanations from this or any other meerkat will be necessary. :)BTW. WWII score: Russia won, Germany lost.Have you been to Germany? And to Russia? Lately?I rest my case. Tue 22 Jun 2010 08:01:32 GMT+1 democracythreat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=48#comment91 cool_brush_work wrote: "Now, if You will pardon the expression: Admitting our own & paying for our own mistakes 'takes real balls'."No, it takes integrity and selflessness.Do not make the terrible mistake of thinking that courage alone grants an evil and cruel character redemption. Even the very worst of people are capable of great courage, and certainly the most stupid of acts take immense bravery.It is a strange ritual of the martial society to worship bravery (curiously symbolized by the male reproductive genitalia) above other virtues. Thus we see young men join the military for the fun of shooting weapons and flying in helicopters and watching things blow up, in fact we encourage and exploit these desires of young people with carefully crafted recruiting advertising.And then when these young people are killed, or when they kill and go insane with misery at what they have become, as a society we "forget" that they joined for the excitement and we pretend that these children, these teenagers as many are, were actually all knowing philosopher monks who summarized the global geopolitical environment in an instant and decided, correctly, that the only truth was on our (Surprise!) side of the equation.I find this hugely fascinating behaviour. By the tearful survivors, I mean. The grief I have seen at military funerals has been so incredibly public, and yet so deliberately steeped in fantasy, that I have often wondered whom it serves. Sometimes I'm sure the army wives and girlfriends would feel cheated if they were just given a cheque in the mail and not permitted to do their wailing in new hats and dresses.I remember one guy who hung himself in his closet when I was at office school. Nice guy, I only met him a few times. He was a good solider and never ad any problems with the army. But word got around pretty fast from his friends. It turns out he had a terrible family life, and something was going on with his dad and sister or something like that. Anyways, he hung himself in his closet in full dress uniform, which was pretty sad. And you should have seen the show they out on! So many new hats, so many new dresses, and his family all turned up for the parade. All all the dignitaries made their dignified speeches, and spoke about how sad it was. And yeah, they all dropped the famous lie about the "ultimate sacrifice" this young man had paid "for the rest of society".I remember watching.... I was in the second row of goons holding rifles at salute.... his father, this big fat dude, trying to fathom the rumour's I'd heard, and as the priest spoke about "the ultimate sacrifice" by this "clean young man", the father held his eyes and cried. And the mother was also overcome with public grief.I didn't like that, I have to say. The truth is, if it were up to me I would have shot the father right then and there, just for crying at that point in proceedings. It seemed like a profanity upon the dead man, all that public and hugely self serving and fantasy based grief. And of course, that was the frame of mind I was in at the time. I'd have shot a lot of folks back then, if it were up to me. Anyways, that is a diversion, but it is worth noting that kids are still getting brassed up and the warm glow of nation still tickles the fancies of numerous pensioners in the UK.I figure never trust someone who cries at a funeral. Here is some poor person dead, and they are fishing for sympathy. It is enough to break a persons concentration thinking about the angle, for sure. Tue 22 Jun 2010 07:54:23 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=47#comment90 "Of course, this comment could only have come from a staunch patriot of a nation that is fighting not one but TWO wars in desert nation"And which countries are those?Iraq is not a desert country (neither south nor north of it are deserts).Neither is Afghanistan which is mostly mountainous.[just like Switzerland, and with similarly corrupted banking system)And yes, US Special Forces do ride camels when needed.Particularly in Waziristan. [CIA uses mostly Reapers. :)] Tue 22 Jun 2010 07:50:44 GMT+1 Mathiasen http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=47#comment89 To make the abolition of the common agriculture policy (CAP) a success criterion equals the idea of inviting everybody to a summit on Mars, a liberal Danish MEP has written to the foreign minister: One third will not appear, one third cannot afford it, and the last third appears only to see the people that have made such a mad proposal.The background is that Denmark in 2012 will chair the EU, and the minister plans to propose the abolition. If nothing else, the correspondence shows how important the CAP is in the EU. Tue 22 Jun 2010 07:44:53 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/gavinhewitt/2010/06/the_leaders_who_prefer_not_to.html?page=46#comment88 "I would expect that now that in Spain there is no work, Spanish workers would be able to go anywhere in EU find a job and earn their livings without a problem."And, pray, in what EU countries?Belgium? France? Germany? Italy? Portugal? UK?Or perhaps in Bulgaria, Greece or Romania?Inquiring minds want to know. Tue 22 Jun 2010 07:33:58 GMT+1