Comments for http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html en-gb 30 Fri 22 Aug 2014 04:46:56 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=98#comment76 "USA dont give a daim about Gadhaffi slaughtering millions of his own people, nor did they do that about tutsi-killings in rwanda."Any evidence of Gaddafi slaughtering millions?And as for Rwanda...Why don't you direct that comment to the new French foreign minister (and a former PM) accused by the government of post-massacre Rwanda of having direct links to so called "French Connection" [read on it] Thu 17 Mar 2011 14:20:58 GMT+1 kj_kjols http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=97#comment75 So whats the story behind USA hesitating and waiting for UN-conventions? They never seemed to bother about that before?USA dont give a daim about Gadhaffi slaughtering millions of his own people, nor did they do that about tutsi-killings in rwanda.But paralleled to the uprising in the region and due to the USAs lack of credibility in the middle east USA may loose their last grips in the ME if the world community let the rebels down.Or maybe the US will let Gadhaffi kill his citizens first and then come to the country to "lebrate" the (dead) people like they did after Saddams massacres of the kurds in the middle of 90s Thu 17 Mar 2011 10:50:23 GMT+1 LucyJ http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=96#comment74 Scott,http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_japan_earthquakeAn excerpt:Nuclear plant operators trying to avoid complete reactor meltdowns said Thursday that they were close to finishing a new power line that could end Japan's crisis, but several ominous signs have also emerged: a surge in radiation levels, unexplained white smoke and spent fuel rods that U.S. officials said might be on the verge of spewing more radioactive material. Units 1, 2 and 3 of Fukushima Dai-ichi have all been rocked by explosions, and officials have acknowledged that their cores have begun to melt down. Compounding the problems, a fire broke out Tuesday and Wednesday in the Unit 4 fuel storage pond, causing radioactivity to be released into the atmosphere. Temperatures also have been rising in Units 5 and 6. ---------They r talking on the news about how much those radiation pills are selling out all over America...Truth is, we just don't know how much radiation is being released, they say a little, but its not like u can see radiation, it may be higher in some areas than others and it all depends which way the wind blows...But it has to go somewhere... Wed 16 Mar 2011 23:50:34 GMT+1 Scott0962 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=94#comment73 re. #71. At 9:01pm on 16 Mar 2011, LucyJ wrote:Meerkat: And yes, if it gets high enough the jet stream would carry it across the Pacific to the U.S. and/or Canada. There's not much to carry, and it's a looooong way across the Pacific.--------Yeah, but what goes around comes around...we are all connected in this world by our environment, which connects us all even more than internet...For example, I have heard that there scientists have found pollution in Alaska and Canada and that this pollution actually traveled from Asia to North America...So what one country pollutes may still end up in another country...even a loooong, looooong ways away..----------------We already know that air pollution and dust from storms in Asia reaches us here in the U.S. so it's not a stretch of the imagination to imagine radioactive contaminants could too.If the reports can be trusted so far it's been relatively small releases of low level radiation from vented gasses and possibly an unknown amount of coolant liquid into the water table and/or ocean. The Japanese government is still downplaying the seriousness of the event and while an event of the magnitude of Chernobyl may be unlikely it's clear the technical experts don't have the situation under control yet. Also, additional aftershocks could still exacerbate the problems at the plant.I live on the west coast of the U.S. and while I'm not losing any sleep worrying over the disaster at rhe Japanese nuclear site I'm still following events there with great interest. Wed 16 Mar 2011 23:31:53 GMT+1 LucyJ http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=93#comment72 To Marie,The other blog closed, but I would like to say that I am also inspired by u, as well, to hear that u r still dancing and having fun, with good wit and cheer, is awesome and it inspires me to stay in good health and keep exercising as I get older...So, from one to another...Thanx:) Wed 16 Mar 2011 21:17:56 GMT+1 LucyJ http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=92#comment71 Pmk: Taliban has been born in Pakistani madrassas (with a little help from ISI)in 1994; long after Russian withdrawal from Afghanistan-----------There could have been pre-Taliban or pre-Taliban elements before that growing up as teenagers that were told by their elders to be against the Russians and it carried over to Americans, despite the fact that we were kind and helped them get freedom as shown in Rambo III...such is life..-------Curious: study this stuff for "fun"...I'm guessing that makes me very weird to most...One day I hope to put the wisdom in those great masterpieces to action for the benefit of the American People...If they are ready to accept the teachings...which is a very BIG IF...--------From the great Jim Morrison and the Doors, 'People are strange when u're a stranger'..Always loved that song...no, Curious, I think everyone's kinda crazay anymore...:)-----------Curious: I mean..who likes to have their world view challenged?..I know I do..but I'm an admitted weirdo who posts comments on the very liberal BBC, listens to NPR and watches Telemundo for international news...------------Hey, at least the first two are in English! :)I like to have world view challenged, but ppl can be pretty negative sometimes and when u get too much negativity, u must find a way to balance it with more positivity to at least neutral or find some sort of positive...Some ppl purposefully look for the bad and they r never satisfied...And some ppl are happy within themselves and r always satisfied...Its all about how u want to live... Wed 16 Mar 2011 21:13:45 GMT+1 LucyJ http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=90#comment70 Meerkat: And yes, if it gets high enough the jet stream would carry it across the Pacific to the U.S. and/or Canada. There's not much to carry, and it's a looooong way across the Pacific.--------Yeah, but what goes around comes around...we are all connected in this world by our environment, which connects us all even more than internet...For example, I have heard that there scientists have found pollution in Alaska and Canada and that this pollution actually traveled from Asia to North America...So what one country pollutes may still end up in another country...even a loooong, looooong ways away.. Wed 16 Mar 2011 21:01:01 GMT+1 Interestedforeigner http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=89#comment69 65. At 07:32am on 16 Mar 2011, Nostrano wrote:"It also appears to be too late in any case."__________No, not too late, but he's cutting it pretty fine.I'm not sure what the delay is. There must be some part of this deal that hasn't fallen into place yet. Wed 16 Mar 2011 15:09:36 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=88#comment68 "I'm an admitted weirdo who posts comments on the very liberal BBC, listens to NPR and watches Telemundo for international news..."Nothing to boast about, CuriousAmerican.If you told us you'were posting in "Morning Star" or "L'Humanite" and got your int. news from RT and CCTV - now that would be somethin'! :-) Wed 16 Mar 2011 11:31:10 GMT+1 CuriousAmerican http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=87#comment67 66. At 07:35am on 16 Mar 2011, powermeerkat wrote:Re #64 CuriosAmerican wrote:" there are however even more important ancient chinese books about the proper way to lead a people and lead them to victory in ALL aspects of governance.T'ai Kungs Six Secret TeachingsSsu-MaWu-Tzu..this one is especially good..or scary acurate if you careWei Liao-tsuHuang Shih-kung..this one will shock you to your core about how badly you are being lied to and manipulated..I mean SHOCKED.."-------------------------------------Have you read Great Chairman Mao's Little Red Book? ;-)-------------------------------------....I don't suffer fools well...so it's a very hard read for me...I study this stuff for "fun"...I'm guessing that makes me very weird to most...One day I hope to put the wisdom in those great masterpieces to action for the benefit of the American People...If they are ready to accept the teachings...which is a very BIG IF...I mean..who likes to have their world view challenged?..I know I do..but I'm an admitted weirdo who posts comments on the very liberal BBC, listens to NPR and watches Telemundo for international news... Wed 16 Mar 2011 07:52:36 GMT+1 CuriousAmerican http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=85#comment66 Re #42 Scott wrote:The U.S. worrying about radiation from Japan, what delicious irony.------------------------------------------------------------Irony you say?.......hmmm......I find it interesting that some people with a liberal world view would delight in the misery of others. I bet you where one of those people dancing in the streets when those Islamic Radicals killed thousands of innocent americans on 911...How soon people like you forget....and you have your freedom to express your contempt by the great national sacrifices of the....Stalinists?....Japanese Emperor-God?....those cute and cuddly misunderstood National Socialists Workers Party members?....Not to mention your own countrymen and women who served alongside those american devils....Irony indeed...but not as you intended... Wed 16 Mar 2011 07:41:57 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=84#comment65 Re #64 CuriosAmerican wrote:" there are however even more important ancient chinese books about the proper way to lead a people and lead them to victory in ALL aspects of governance.T'ai Kungs Six Secret TeachingsSsu-MaWu-Tzu..this one is especially good..or scary acurate if you careWei Liao-tsuHuang Shih-kung..this one will shock you to your core about how badly you are being lied to and manipulated..I mean SHOCKED.."Have you read Great Chairman Mao's Little Red Book? ;-) Wed 16 Mar 2011 07:35:21 GMT+1 Mirino http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=83#comment64 53. InteresedforeignerThe chips were much higher in 1941, and obviously the world didn't have as much access to information that it has today. Libya is nothing compared to Nazi Germany or Japan in 1941. Everyone knows what's happening in Libya, we even have the support of the Arab League, and we all believe that Gaddafi must go. Obama has clearly proclaimed this, but is obvously very reluctant to do anything about it. It also appears to be too late in any case. Wed 16 Mar 2011 07:32:53 GMT+1 CuriousAmerican http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=81#comment63 61. At 06:18am on 16 Mar 2011, powermeerkat wrote:PM: Sun-tzu, more often. [Pull when they push, and vice versa, etc. ;-)]------------------------------ahh...a fellow student and great admirer of the Sun-Tzu...Attack your enemes weakness and avoid his strengthsKnow yourself and your enemy better than he understands himselfUse the game of "go" (minimun resources to control the greatest amount of territory) strategy vs. "chess" which is to kill as many of your enemy as possible while risking your own to counter attack and loss....there are however even more important ancient chinese books about the proper way to lead a people and lead them to victory in ALL aspects of governance.T'ai Kungs Six Secret TeachingsSsu-MaWu-Tzu..this one is especially good..or scary acurate if you careWei Liao-tsuHuang Shih-kung..this one will shock you to your core about how badly you are being lied to and manipulated..I mean SHOCKED.....Warning....Read these at your own risk...Its like the movie Matrix..."I offer only the truth, nothing more"...if all you libs out there like your world view the way it is...and can't take any challenges to it...stay away from the understanding and wisdom found in these books...because it WILL force you to look around and start to SEE and HEAR and UNDERSTAND...which can be a very scare thing if you're not ready to accept it... Wed 16 Mar 2011 07:22:12 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=80#comment62 Re #42 Scott wrote:The U.S. worrying about radiation from Japan, what delicious irony.And yes, if it gets high enough the jet stream would carry it across the Pacific to the U.S. and/or Canada. There's not much to carry, and it's a looooong way across the Pacific.[even we had to make a technical stopover at Tinian for the delivery] Wed 16 Mar 2011 06:35:08 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=79#comment61 IF wrote: One way or another, when the ship sails I believe Chancellor Merkel wil be aboard. Don't expect her to be leading the brass band, though.I doubt there'll be any brass band in Germany.I even have some doubts as to whether Frau Merkel will be onboard for much longer.[there's yet another election coming [Baden-Wurttenberg] soon and much weakened CDU's chances of success there are rather slim] Wed 16 Mar 2011 06:28:23 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=77#comment60 24. At 5:44pm on 15 Mar 2011, Interestedforeigner wrote:19. At 4:37pm on 15 Mar 2011, powermeerkat wrote:Re #10, IFI don't recall Moscow opting for and insisting on "political solutions" re Chechnya and Georgia, preferring instead military solutions.__________IF: Not political, tovarich?You are never reading Clausewitz?It is politics by other means ...PM: Sun-tzu, more often. [Pull when they push, and vice versa, etc. ;-)] Wed 16 Mar 2011 06:18:41 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=76#comment59 Llareggub_2 wrote:The US spent a lot of money arming the Taliban against the evil Russians. Enough said!There's only one little problem:Taliban has been born in Pakistani madrassas (with a little help from ISI)in 1994; long after Russian withdrawal from Afghanistan.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------LAY IT THICK AND SOMETHING WILL STICK Wed 16 Mar 2011 06:12:02 GMT+1 Interestedforeigner http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=75#comment58 56. At 11:37pm on 15 Mar 2011, chronophobe wrote:"alJazeera is now reporting (unconfirmed) the Rebs have sunk two of ghadffi's ships. By an air strike."Where? I can't seem to find it on their site. Wed 16 Mar 2011 00:55:15 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=74#comment57 #55 Zainn-- the reports were the government has no powers --only the family has ? Wed 16 Mar 2011 00:23:27 GMT+1 Chryses http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=72#comment56 Interestedforeigner, (#14. At 3:26pm on 15 Mar 2011)”... ‘Do you have any of that antiseptic hand cleaner?’ “No, but we can get you a GREAT deal on disposable gloves ... Wed 16 Mar 2011 00:12:33 GMT+1 chronophobe http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=71#comment55 A no fly zone is a gesture, a symbolBingo. alJazeera is now reporting (unconfirmed) the Rebs have sunk two of ghadffi's ships. By an air strike. If true that would make the thing even more absurd. Tue 15 Mar 2011 23:37:13 GMT+1 Zainn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=70#comment54 #54. quietoaktreeYes but interestingly they had 18 out of 40 seats in the Parliment and recently nearly has of the Ministers were Shias.The mood since many years has been for the Khalifa family to go. Which is pro Saudia. But the Shias want a Pro Iran Goverment. Tue 15 Mar 2011 23:14:22 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=68#comment53 #52 Zainn-- we hear the problem is that (mainly) the Shia want some say in governing ´their´country ?At the beginning there were no calls for the King to go --but the mood changed, especially after the Saudi troops arrived ? Tue 15 Mar 2011 22:56:31 GMT+1 Interestedforeigner http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=67#comment52 39. At 8:11pm on 15 Mar 2011, Nostrano wrote:37. Cool Rider.Maybe if Obama had been in power in 1941 instead of Roosevelt, history would have been vastly different and there wouldn't be any Jews left to lobby. ____________If FDR had waited until December 1941 to do anything about it, you could say the same thing.The US started re-arming in 1934, and took big jumps in urgency in 1938 and 1940. It was what FDR did in the late 1930's that mattered.President Obama has not had 7 years in office as a run up to adventures in Libya, or elsewhere. He's had three weeks.Notwithstanding the criticism I have made here, even I can recognize that's not much time. Tue 15 Mar 2011 22:51:23 GMT+1 Zainn http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=66#comment51 I have been living in Bahrain for the last 12 years and, as per my neutal view, while comparing the living standard with any democratic country I was surprised to know that the people of Bahrain both Shia and Sunnis enjoy many social benefits; without paying any taxes. The people WHO WANT TO WORK are not jobless and government provides amaple support and opportunities. The Shia community who are protesting for being jobless are infact holding most jobs in the country from low to high level jobs. The biggest hospital Salmaniya is almost full of Shia doctors and assiting staff. Minstry or Works, or Electircity or Health or Commerce or Education you just name it the majority you will find will be Shia. The Scholorships awared are 90% Shias. After the intial strong hand from the Govt.. the Govt. has kept a very open and inviting atmosphere for Dialogue and for the last one month the protesters have been getting violent and barbaric day by day. Since friday the Shia extremists have started killing innocent expatriates calling them agents who actually are just poor labourers from Bangladesh and Pakistan etc.The Govt. has shown maximum restratin since the intial strong hand but the activities by the Shia protesters who are carrying attacks with swords, daggers, guns, moltova cocktail and patrol bombs etc are now out of control and everyone wanted the Govt of take action against the protesters to stop the killing of innocnet civilians. Tue 15 Mar 2011 22:34:09 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=64#comment50 Nostrano--- another important point of the Spanish civil war--Most Jews were fighting for two reasons -- one was against Fascism and the other was FOR Socialism or Communism.- and the Socialist repulsion of anything Fascist -- can still be seen in Israel and Jewish communities today. Tue 15 Mar 2011 22:34:04 GMT+1 bryhers http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=63#comment49 Can`t see how France and Britain can go it alone.The French carrier is being repaired,(Nuclear engines unreliable),Britain had decomissioned its carrier,retired the Harrier jets.Land Bases? Akrotiri,(Cyprus),is a thousand miles from Tripoli,would require air to air refuelling in both directions,Malta has a small civilian airfield which would take fast jets but there is no infrastructure.The suggestion the Arab air forces do it is a good one except for the political difficulty.Do they police themslves when things get rough in Saudi Arabia,Bahrain,Egypt? Tue 15 Mar 2011 22:30:23 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=62#comment48 39. At 8:11pm on 15 Mar 2011, Nostrano wrote:"Maybe if Obama had been in power in 1941 instead of Roosevelt, history would have been vastly different and there wouldn't be any Jews left to lobby."Nostrano -- I have nothing against one-liners, but they should be carefully considered beforehand.No country entered or fought WWll with the intention of saving Jews. Jews from many countries (including Palestinian Jews) and through various circumstances fought with the Allies. (as nationals or volunteers)The Jewish fight against Fascism began (?) with their fight against Franco in the Spanish civil war -- where Jews from Europe and Palestine fought with the Socialists and Communists against THEIR COMMON ENEMY !--- Both America and Britain during WWll considered the fate of Jews as -- Collateral Damage !-- So please do not imply any right to Laurels -- where NONE is deserved. Tue 15 Mar 2011 22:12:52 GMT+1 The Cool Ruler Rides Again http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=61#comment47 This post has been Removed Tue 15 Mar 2011 21:58:04 GMT+1 Interestedforeigner http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=59#comment46 40. At 8:20pm on 15 Mar 2011, Andy Post wrote:"I'm not getting that impression."[[Oh, they are. That is, among other things, why secretary Gates had to "clarify" his earlier comments. The US has been on board since before the carrier group was ordered up through the canal. Egypt has been on board at least that long, too. The question is, "for what, exactly, are they on board?"]]----------"I would expect our diplomatic corps would be more energetic in trying to form a coalition, but, as you point out, that may be the old way of doing things."[[I think they are being very energetic, indeed. In effect, they are trying to build a "coalition of the willing".But it is the complete opposite of the "You're either fer us or agin us" and "we're-going-to-go-it-alone-anyhow-and-devil-take-the-hindmost", approach of the previous administration. It's much more like "We'll support it, but only if you guys show us that you're serious about it first."Given that this ought to be a European-led show, that seems appropriate to me.]]----------"The Administration certainly hasn't made the case (or even tried to make the case) to the People that such action is necessary. They wouldn't dare open another theater of operations without doing so."[[Effectively, there just isn't time. The Libyan opposition will all be dead long before then.Whether they have made the case to the people or not is, right now, largely irrelevant. That issue speaks primarily to the inadequacy of the teaching of history in America's schools, and to problems of concentration of ownership in the American media. It has nothing to do with America's substantive strategic interests.This job simply has to be done. That is America's (and Europe's) clear strategic imperative, whether a majority of American (or European) voters presently recognize it or not. To fail to do so would be a terrible mistake, with bad consequences for American (and western) policy in many, many countries around the world, for a long time. There is no other realistic option. Conveniently it is also the clear strategic interest of everyone else, too - including China and Russia - whether they choose to admit it in the media, or not.I might note that a majority of Americans did not think that America should get involved in WWII. Nonetheless, long, long before Pearl Harbor, FDR, America's congressional leaders, and America's military leaders had all recognized that America's strategic imperatives dictated otherwise, no matter what the voters then believed. It was exactly what Edmund Burke defined as the duty of elected representatives. It was what government based on reason should do: They saw their duty. They did their duty.It was a very good thing they did. Tue 15 Mar 2011 21:44:38 GMT+1 Mirino http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=58#comment45 44. The Cool RulerThey were certainly mingling, integrated and social beforehand, but the way too many ended up was far from cool. It could have been even worse if had been in the 'Obama world'. If you take enough time over decision making, the war is finished and the irreversable damage is done. Tue 15 Mar 2011 21:08:55 GMT+1 blogandblue http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=57#comment44 So what's your point, Mark?Bahrain and Libya are the same because their people share ethnicity and religion (kind of). Is that it?What sort of racist claptrap is that?We know that Libya's is a popular, spontaneous uprising, with no foreign agitation and no wider, political or religious, agenda.We do not know this about Bahrain, and much as we may disapprove of the Saudi regime and it's involvement, they are there by invitation, and have not, as yet, taken any extreme military action against the people.This may change, and if it does, I'm sure that we will limit ourselves to words and not actions. But our failings in one part of the Middle East should not condemn another to slaughter and oppression. Tue 15 Mar 2011 20:54:35 GMT+1 The Cool Ruler Rides Again http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=55#comment43 This post has been Removed Tue 15 Mar 2011 20:52:17 GMT+1 The Cool Ruler Rides Again http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=54#comment42 This post has been Removed Tue 15 Mar 2011 20:47:38 GMT+1 Scott0962 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=53#comment41 re.#13. At 3:15pm on 15 Mar 2011, LucyJ wrote:Truthfully, this American is most concerned with Japan right now, as the nuclear crisis seems to be getting worse and if there is a nuclear meltdown, they said the raditation could travel to the USA...---------The U.S. worrying about radiation from Japan, what delicious irony.And yes, if it gets high enough the jet stream would carry it across the Pacific to the U.S. and/or Canada. Tue 15 Mar 2011 20:46:20 GMT+1 Andy Post http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=51#comment40 Ref. 17, Maria Ashot:"Again, I am quite confounded by the ease with which the Western powers, with Russia, agreed that bombing Belgrade was the appropriate way to end mayhem in former Yugoslavia."I would be, too, if the Russians had indeed acceded to NATO's plans to bomb Serbia. They didn't (nor did the Security Council nor Greece, the NATO member closest to the conflict). Russia was strongly opposed to it (as they would to almost any action that involved an attack on fellow Slavs), but Yeltsin knew Russia was too weak at the time to do anything about it.It wouldn't happen today, I assure you. They're still bitter about it. Tue 15 Mar 2011 20:27:34 GMT+1 Andy Post http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=50#comment39 Ref. 35, Interestedforeigner:"The Obama administration is already on board."I'm not getting that impression. I would expect our diplomatic corps would be more energetic in trying to form a coalition, but, as you point out, that may be the old way of doing things.The Administration certainly hasn't made the case (or even tried to make the case) to the People that such action is necessary. They wouldn't dare open another theater of operations without doing so. Tue 15 Mar 2011 20:20:44 GMT+1 Mirino http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=49#comment38 This post has been Removed Tue 15 Mar 2011 20:11:27 GMT+1 Mirino http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=48#comment37 (I wrongly posted the following on the last thread so here it is again, with an addition: Latest declaration from France: The idea of a NFZ has reached the point of being depassée (out of date). What now? Do we wait for the blood bath to finish, be drained off and tidied up, then rely on Mr. Ban Ki-Moon to go to Libya and arrest Gaddafi for 'crimes against humanity', when we've stood by fully aware of what was happening and have done nothing? Even if it's possible and justifiable, his sons will probably be delighted to be able to take over without having the responsibility of looking after their father who can only get worse with time. The same regime, if not worse, and business as usual..)Juppé has sent a clear signal to Gaddafi today that he can carry on bombing his people with impunity, because 'it's too late', according to the French Foreign minister, to do anything about it.. Tue 15 Mar 2011 19:54:26 GMT+1 The Cool Ruler Rides Again http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=46#comment36 This post has been Removed Tue 15 Mar 2011 19:54:09 GMT+1 BluesBerry http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=45#comment35 This may be slightly off-track, but it occurs to me nonetheless:What will you do when the no-fly zone fails to come for you? Do you think that United States and Europe are immune from the ocean swell of “human awakening”? “The wave of human awakening tells human beings that the rich are getting seriously richer while the poor - barely exist.No, there is no immunity for the United States or for Europe. Call it austerity, call it spending cuts, call it by any other pretty name, and it remains stinking proverty. Where does the money go?It doesn't go to increased wages, it doesn't go greater bank loans, it doesn't go to job creation: so, I need ask: WHERE DOES THE MONEY GO? Is it possible, could it be possible that the money goes out-of-country to offshore hideaways like the Caymans? Someone somewhere has the answer, but s/he won't cough it up for the likes of you and me. Tue 15 Mar 2011 19:52:37 GMT+1 Interestedforeigner http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=44#comment34 32. At 7:06pm on 15 Mar 2011, Andy Post wrote:"I don't think so, not that I wouldn't put it past the Russians to act that way.""The Russians are telling the Europeans to stop with the lobbying until they get the Americans on board."-----------The Obama administration is already on board.But, interestingly, President Obama seems to have refused to have America play the patsy for everybody else. In the past America was too willing to let everybody else have a free ride.Everybody wants this done, and everybody knows that leaving the madman in place is not an option. But they all assume that, by default, America will do it, just like America has always done it since 1945, and nobody else has to take any risks or pay the cost of doing it.Here, the message I get from the White House is, okay, we'll do it, but there are conditions. The first condition is that other people have to stand up and carry their share of the load - both political and military.He's being a lot tougher with the allies than America has been in the past. He's being a lot tougher with the Arab League than America has been in the past. The message is that the days of free-loading are over.I like that. It's about time.My guess is that this job is going to get done. America will provide electronic warfare capability, and will provide logistical capability, for certain. I'm not certain that the sharp end of this show is going to fall (entirely) to the US Navy. I don't think that is the deal. Especially not with so many European airbases close at hand. The Europeans (and, indeed, Egyptians and Saudis) ought to be more than capable of handling Libya's air defenses. Tue 15 Mar 2011 19:43:36 GMT+1 BluesBerry http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=42#comment33 Foreign Minister, Ali Akbar Salehi has called on the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) to help stop the attacks against anti-government protesters in Bahrain. To OIC Secretary General Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, he expressed concern over the excessive violence being used against Bahraini protesters. Salehi asked for the upholding the wishes of the people and the therefore of peaceful protestation. Ihsanoglu said that he understood Salehi’s concerns about Bahrain, and he said the OIC would use its influence to help. The minister then called on the government in Manama to refrain from using force.Response: The Bahraini Security Forces stepped up their attack on anti-government protesters as protestors tried to expand their rallies from the main square in Manama to the Bahrain Financial Harbor.Armed persons roamed Manama’s streets; they blocked Bahraini villagers. The financial district of Manama was deserted, shops and malls were shuttered; Sunni & Shiite groups armed with metal pipes and clubs appeared in the streets of the capital AFTER hundreds of Saudi-armored troops rolled into Bahrain from Saudi Arabia. Women were ordered to leave central Manama and activists were distributing masks and eye protectors to defend against tear gas. Saudi Arabia’s Sunni government said it had responded to a call for help from its neighbor under a mutual defense pact of the 6-nation Persian Gulf Cooperation Council (PGCC). But the leading activists described the intervention as unacceptable and that it would complicate the already volatile situation. On TV, I saw footage of convoys. These were of unmarked, desert-brown armored vehicles crossing the causeway from Saudi’s Eastern Province into Bahrain, the home of the AMERICAN Fifth Fleet. Do you think its right for forces of OTHER countries, especially Gulf countries, to be present in Bahrain, to be interfering in Bahrain? The people of Bahrain have human rights demands, which seem legitimate; the People of Bahrain are expressing their needs peacefully. More than 300 people have been wounded; on the worst day seven people were killed. The Shiite protestors have vowed to resist any foreign “occupation”. Protesters in Manama have started preparing for confrontation. The United Arab Emirates admits that it supplied @ 500 police to the coalition force. It was not clear if other PGCC members were participating, the PGCC groups being Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the UAE. The United States said it had no advance warning that Saudi troops were being deployed. US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called for restraint by all the forces in Bahrain. Clinton also referred to the "increasingly provocative” acts by protesters.The Americans have been urged to respect democracy instead of sending military officials to the region and further repressing the people. I guess there will be no no-fly zone here.The People of Bahrain have been camping in Pearl Square since February 14th. They want King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa’s Regime gone; they want social reforms. Should it be surprising to us (here in the west) that right after US Defense Secretary Robert Gates little visit, we see an intensified use of violence against the people of Bahrain? No no-fly zone for Bahrain. I'm thinking nothing for Bahrain! Tue 15 Mar 2011 19:36:51 GMT+1 The Cool Ruler Rides Again http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=41#comment32 This post has been Removed Tue 15 Mar 2011 19:35:35 GMT+1 Andy Post http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=40#comment31 Ref. 10, Interestedforeigner wrote:'"As far as we are concerned, some fundamental questions need to be answered, not just what we need to do, but how it's going to be done. If there is a No-Fly Zone, who is going to implement a No-Fly Zone? How is the No-Fly Zone is going to be implemented?" Churkin asked.[[IF translation: "You still haven't answered our fundamental question. How many times do we have to make it plain, you still haven't told us what we are getting in return."]]'I don't think so, not that I wouldn't put it past the Russians to act that way.I'd translate it to be a challenge to the U.K. and France. The answer to the question of who will enforce the no-fly zone is obvious, the U.S. Navy, but the U.S. has expressed no enthusiasm for the mission. The Russians are telling the Europeans to stop with the lobbying until they get the Americans on board. They're refusing to respond to an idea that may have repercussions in the Arab world if there's no evidence that the mission will be carried out. Tue 15 Mar 2011 19:06:39 GMT+1 Interestedforeigner http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=38#comment30 26. CRRAYeah, pretty much. Tue 15 Mar 2011 18:51:41 GMT+1 Andy Post http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=37#comment29 Mark:"A no-fly zone is a gesture, a symbol."... manned by American pilots who run the risk of getting killed. I don't feel comfortable asking men to put their lives on the line for a mere gesture. If a no-fly zone will be ineffective, then no deal. Tue 15 Mar 2011 18:50:55 GMT+1 Interestedforeigner http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=36#comment28 17. At 4:23pm on 15 Mar 2011, Maria Ashot wrote:"I can't imagine why Lavrov is throwing up a wall of words in an attempt to extend Q's grip on Libya, ...[[The Russians aren't trying to extend the madman's reign. Thye want him gone, too.Why are they doing it? Opportunism: They're trying to pretend they don't want him gone for the purpose of extracting some kind of concession.]]"As for Russians, well: we know they are in trouble, and we also know they can be brought round. And ultimately they are in no position to dictate."[[Which is perhaps why the negotiations are taking so long. Russia may have over-played its hand - particularly since Arab League approval now undercuts the need to obtain Russian non-obstruction at the UN.The Americans know darn well that Russia doesn't have any great attachment to the guy, and aren't prepared to pay a very high price for Russian support at the UN or elsewhere under the circumstances. A small price, yes. A big price, no.If they don't get Russian support, at the end of the day they can, and will, go ahead without it. The political price to pay isn't that big: nobody is going to shed a tear for Mad Muammar. Ultimately the Russian position is posturing. Everybody knows it. Russia needs to smell the coffee here, or it may end up with nothing - and look bad doing it, too.Note the contrast with China.Whatever the Chinese wanted, they have plainly already got. That deal has already been made. China has investments at risk in Libya. Maybe they didn't like the way their workers were treated during the evacuation. Maybe they are playing a longer game, and figure that any new government in Libya will appreciate that China didn't make a fuss. Maybe they figured that they would (and did) gain more face by being reasonable - and quiet - particularly when they are going to get the result that is in their interest, and that they want, anyway.Whatever the reason, while the Russians are noisily (and, in my view, a bit foolishly) playing to the media, China has already quietly made its deal, and is now being very circumspect. Without doing anything, China wins again.That's pretty impressive diplomacy.]]"Germany is making a serious blunder..."[[One way or another, when the ship sails I believe Chancellor Merkel will be aboard. Don't expect her to be leading the brass band, though.At the end of the day, France and Germany usually pull together, even when they appear to have their differences. She also seems to understand President Obama well. She's tough. She knows the difference between right and wrong. I'm betting she'll be aboard.]] [[I also believe Poland will be onside.]][[The most bone-headed diplomacy here, by the way, is Italian. Short-sighted. Staggeringly stupid. Italy needs a government in Libya that owes Italy a favour, or looks upon Italy as a friend. What new government in Libya is going to look at Libya's conduct in this crisis, and think well of Italy, or favour Italy's interests, in anything?Like a small-minded civil service clerk, the government of Italy seems only to understand the power of saying "No.", when its interests are far better served by understanding that it also has the power to say "Yes."No, Italy has thrown in its lot with a murderer, and may end up getting what it deserves accordingly.]]----------"Again, I am quite confounded by the ease with which the Western powers, with Russia, agreed that bombing Belgrade ..."[[It may seem to have been easy, in retrospect. But at the time it wasn't that easy.]] Tue 15 Mar 2011 18:46:48 GMT+1 BluesBerry http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=35#comment27 I hope you don't really expect to see a no-fly zone over Bahrain. There may have occurred an unprecedented intervention of between 2,000 and 6,000 Saudi-led troops, and this may have been an illegal occupation, but who in the west is gung-ho for Bahrain?Protestors at Pearl Square in the capital, Manama, may have swollen to 50,000 - 100,000, but who in the west is gung-ho for Bahrain?Who is gung-ho?The United States gets on great with this monarchy.Troops arrived yesterday. This was after a weekend of chaos & violence by police & pro-government militias against a large, but peaceful protest. Does the Saudi Army have a right to even enter Bahrain?Who is gung-ho for Bahrain?It was a question shouted by the overwhelming number of protestors in Pearl Square last night.One man shouted: "If these Saudi troops come here, we will meet them face to face.”While maintaining a peaceful protest last night, the escalating anger against the REGIME headed by King Hamad bin Isa al-Khalifa was palpable.The Saudi Government is concerned about the recent protests in its Shia-dominated Eastern Province.The protest movement in Bahrain is calling for an elected government and social reforms; nonetheless, there has been an upsurge in repression by state forces. More than 1,000 civilians injured and at least one dead. Claims that riot police fired toxic nerve gas against civilians, substantiated by senior medical consultants, have added to disapporval of the rulers.Is there a feeling that King Hamad bin Isa al-Khalifa is losing control. Not at all. Is there a feeling for a no-fly zone?No, not at all.In fact, there have been calls by pro-government politicians for the imposition of emergency laws and a curfew. Bahrain’s Crown Prince Sheikh Salman bin Hamad al-Khalifa said: “The right to security and stability transcends any other considerations.” I think this includes social reform, or democracy.The General Federation of Bahraini Trade Unions has renewed strike action at main industries, including Bapco Oil and Alba (aluminium producer).Who is gung-ho for Bahrain?Why is the western world so gung-ho for Libya's no-fly zone, but Bahrain...Where us that country anyway? Tue 15 Mar 2011 18:43:31 GMT+1 Andrew Dundas http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=33#comment26 You're correct that a 'no-fly zone' is all about the useless gestures of some European powers. It's artillery and mortars that are doing the damage to the Rebels in eastern Libya, not Gaddafi's pilots. They lack the skills for accurate bombing.For once I agree with the Russian's on this one. We need to be clear who's going to do the work (probably the US with UK support) and exactly what rules of their engagements will be enforced? And by whom?Lord Snotty lacks understanding of war. But like Sarkozy, Snooty desperately needs a foreign distraction to reduce divert news media from our stagnating economies and drooping tax revenues. With a bit of luck, the Chinese and/or the Russians will see through that wheeze and use their vetos. Tue 15 Mar 2011 18:35:13 GMT+1 The Cool Ruler Rides Again http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=32#comment25 This post has been Removed Tue 15 Mar 2011 18:14:22 GMT+1 JusticeForAll http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=31#comment24 Western nations supported Hosni Mubarek for over 30 Years although he run a regime with full of corruption, crime, torture and murder.Why single out the Libyan leader? If he allows the West to take OIL freely, then he will be good leader and those against the regime can be branded as terrorists!Why not have no fly zone in Bahrain and in Saudi Arabia? Rajapske after committing crimes against humanity visiting freely UK and US.God only can save this world! Tue 15 Mar 2011 17:46:13 GMT+1 Interestedforeigner http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=29#comment23 19. At 4:37pm on 15 Mar 2011, powermeerkat wrote:Re #10, IFI don't recall Moscow opting for and insisting on "political solutions" re Chechnya and Georgia, preferring instead military solutions.__________Not political, tovarich?You are never reading Clausewitz?It is politics by other means ... Tue 15 Mar 2011 17:44:55 GMT+1 Maria Ashot http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=28#comment22 No. 15, Roberto Carlos Alvarez-Galloso:Given that the US consumes petroleum apace, and is closely allied to Israel, these are very much "their own problems." Today, when so many of our populations are ethnically mixed, when we all advocate for political pluralism and democracy, when investments and finance have become completely internationalised, there is simply no way any country in the developed world can claim it has its "own problems" that exist independently from everyone else's, in some kind of vacuum.A US corporate pork production facility is built in Mexico and run unhygienically by the US owners, and before you know it not only Mexicans become sick, but indeed the whole world is being placed on alert.A Libyan lunatic orders the bombing of a US jetliner and 270 people from all kinds of backgrounds are blown to bits. Yes, indeed, these are very much Our Own Problems. Quite. And must be dealt with accordingly, and in a timely, meaningful fashion -- not showing up to exhume bodies in mass graves a decade, or even a month, after the fact. Tue 15 Mar 2011 17:32:26 GMT+1 Llareggub_2 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=27#comment21 The US spent a lot of money arming the Taliban against the evil Russians. Enough said! Tue 15 Mar 2011 17:25:34 GMT+1 Maria Ashot http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=25#comment20 No. 10, Interestedforeigner:My, what a good translator you are! (Not that they can't be read like an open book...) Tue 15 Mar 2011 17:22:27 GMT+1 Oldloadr http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=24#comment19 Bahrain is a constitutional monarchy. There is a parliament. The problem is the Iranians. They want Bahrain to become a client state and they are using the Shiites in Bahrain to accomplish their purpose. Of course Saudi is responding as is the rest of the GCC (I personally don’t like the Saudis and neither do most of the other Arabs I know, so this ain’t personal). The UAE would benefit if Iran seizes control of the upper Arabian (Persian) Gulf since they have just completed a huge build-up of their oil port facility on the Indian Ocean. Tue 15 Mar 2011 16:38:32 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=23#comment18 Re #10, IF I don't recall Moscow opting for and insisting on "political solutions" re Chechnya and Georgia, preferring instead military solutions. Tue 15 Mar 2011 16:37:49 GMT+1 Mirino http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=22#comment17 13. LucJTrue that the US helped the rebels fight the Soviets, but it would then have been difficult to differentiate between the good, sincere rebels who cared for Afghanistan and those who had ulterior motives. In any case what happened towards the end of the Afghan-Soviet war with the rise of the Pakistani Taliban was different. They were programmed. They had their own objective. Even the ISI persuaded the US that 'they' would be good for Afghanistan and be able to unite the country. It's probable that even Islamabad didn't realise that it had opened Pandora's box, even though there are probably factions still within Pakistan who are continually supporting the Taliban even today. That so much Nato and US military equipment gets regularly stolen as it passes through Pakistan to end up in the hands of the Taliban, also seems to indicate this. Tue 15 Mar 2011 16:28:08 GMT+1 Maria Ashot http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=20#comment16 Mr Mardell, a very welcome report, and one I entirely concur with.The difference today, however, is one of scale. Q/G/K is right at this very moment causing direct harm to more human bodies than the other despots you correctly point to.Furthermore, the entire 41 years this savage has been allowed to bully & torment people from his base in Tripoli predate the current resolute effort to overthrow him -- something that has not been quite the case in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, or even Yemen, Egypt and Tunis, not to mention other regions where people are now finally rising up and demanding their rights.Really, throwing the lunatic off his perch is an action long overdue. Indeed, it is kind of surprising that this Stalinist has outlived the USSR that was his chief protector for as long as he has. I can't imagine why Lavrov is throwing up a wall of words in an attempt to extend Q's grip on Libya, considering that in Russia today, the people most vociferously defending the clan of said dictator are the Communists and Gorbachev's "Just Russia" party -- in other words, persons who really are not at all friends of Lavrov or supporters of the current Kremlin or the status quo in Moscow. Germany is making a serious blunder and its arguments about "slippery slopes" and avoiding war sound an awful lot like the arguments once used to appease Hitler... Whether or not one needs to go "Top Gun on Libya" as you put it, the sad simple fact is there are massacres going on on the ground... And surely even a few strong salvos aimed at the lunatic's ears would at least give him pause, and spare lives.Again, I am quite confounded by the ease with which the Western powers, with Russia, agreed that bombing Belgrade was the appropriate way to end mayhem in former Yugoslavia. And it worked. It was not a fun option, and it was messy and we still have the situation in Kosovo -- far from straightforward -- as well as that huge US base. Still, the extreme violence stopped, and Milosevic was removed, and even stood trial.Don't the people of Libya deserve as much merciful intervention as the people of Yugoslavia did? That was in 1999, from March 24 to June 10 -- and it is pretty unusual to come across anyone who was not actually a resident of Belgrade during that bombing, who regrets that Nato took said action. Kindly remember that Slobodan Milosevic also applied all kinds of threats and bluster, and swore up and down he would never leave, and that the Serbs would fight "to the last bullet" etc. etc. And none of that happened.It is strange -- or perhaps it is deja vu? -- to see Germany, so recently committed to the core to the "democratisation and liberation of the Balkans" take an entrenched position against the surgical excision of Q/G/K. There are good reasons why Germany does not have veto powers or a permanent seat on the Security Council, and we are now reminded of the reasons why. As for Russians, well: we know they are in trouble, and we also know they can be brought round. And ultimately they are in no position to dictate. Tue 15 Mar 2011 16:23:43 GMT+1 ozabid http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=19#comment15 As a British national that has been living and working in Bahrain I have been dismayed by the current reporting of the situation by the BBC. I had always believed that the BBC was the one source of information on which we could rely, that would provide an unbiased and complete view of world events. Unfortunately your current reporting has been completely one sided. I think it would be appropriate to get viewpoints from both pro government as well as expatriate communities. Just so you know, currently expatriates are locked up in our houses, scared for our lives, because the so called peaceful pro democracy demonstrators have killed 6 innocent expats in the past 2 days and harassed countless others. I personally was threatened with by a bunch of these thugs holding swords, knives and metal rods and told to leave their country. Tue 15 Mar 2011 16:15:14 GMT+1 Roberto Carlos Alvarez-Galloso http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=18#comment14 The West including the USA should concentrate on their own problems. We have enough as it is to avoid complicating things more. Tue 15 Mar 2011 15:33:08 GMT+1 Interestedforeigner http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=16#comment13 More help from the IF International Diplomacy Translation Service:Mark wrote:"Sometimes silence says more than words. There will be an embarrassed void, and determination to look in the other direction, rather than any discussion of whether such a no-fly zone should be extended to Bahrain. The very thought is ludicrous. Nor will there be a peep about arming the rebels. No thought of sanctions. In the end, it is the more important country, and more important region as far as the US is concerned. So no-one will want to talk about how to respond to any excesses.""But first, Libya. The dynamic is changing. Col Muammar Gaddafi is apparently poised to win, or at least win enough territory to split his country. Despite the Obama administration's extreme reluctance about a no-fly zone, one of their conditions has been met. The Arab League is behind the call. The French and the British are gung-ho for patrolling the skies and are drafting a UN resolution. Even US Defence Secretary Robert Gates has rowed back a little bit from his initially dismissive remarks."----------[[IF Translation:Arab League: "We want to be rid of this murderous mad dog. But we don't want any more protesting for democratic reform in Bahrain, Oman, Yemen, or, above all, Saudi Arabia.""You also want to be rid of this murderous dog, but popular opinion in western countries will not support it, and you're short of cash. You need our approval as political and diplomatic cover.""Here's the deal - President Obama, you and Hilary will "zip it" when it comes to supporting democratic protests in our countries. You will look the other way as we arrest, torture, and, from time-to-time, occasionally kill protesters. We promise not to kill very many of them, and the torture will only be mild.""In return we will call for a no-fly zone. We will promise to contribute at least one aircraft and one pilot from each of our countries to make this an "international" effort. Just so you won't feel bad selling your souls to the devil (yet again), we will pony up some of the cash - you can think of it as "rent-a-carrier-group". Don't worry. We've done it before ... ."Americans, Brits, and French among themselves:"The madman has got to go. Nobody else is going to step forward. There's no other good alternative: it's this deal or no deal. Time is running out for the Libyans. Make the deal. Get it done."Response to Arab League (i.e., Saudi Arabia): "Ok."Americans, Brits, and French among themselves:"Now we have to go and deal with the Russians. Well, at least they're more helpful than the Italians. What do you think it'll take to get the Germans onside?""Do you have any of that antiseptic hand cleaner?" Tue 15 Mar 2011 15:26:11 GMT+1 LucyJ http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=15#comment12 Truthfully, this American is most concerned with Japan right now, as the nuclear crisis seems to be getting worse and if there is a nuclear meltdown, they said the raditation could travel to the USA...All the experts are saying Japan needs to do the cement/sand over the nuclear facilities and I agree...if they haven't cooled them down by now and they r getting worse, they should shut it off b/4 total meltdown as they r saying at least oen of the secuirty measures has been breached...----------As for Libya, I agree with woeisme that we should all be cautious about arming hte rebels, b/c how do we know they are not Islamic extremists?Didn't USA help Afghanistan in 80's only to be 'rewarded' with having to go there to fight terrorists in modern years, some of whom had weaponry and training by us, now they r using what we gave them against us?Would helping hte rebels mean we would also be helping al Qaeda? Tue 15 Mar 2011 15:15:30 GMT+1 Scott0962 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=14#comment11 This whole excercise is designed to ease the consciences of liberals who feel they should "do something" (i.e., send other people to do something), and not as an effective military measure to assist the Libyan rebels. The U.S. and Britain maintained a no-fly zone over southern Iraq between the two gulf wars and it did not prevent Saddam Hussein from suppressing rebellion there.Don't expect sharply worded critical speeches from President Obama directed toward the government there or toward the Gulf states that have sent troops in to assist that government stay in power: oil talks. Also, don't forget that the headquarters of U.S. naval forces in the Gulf is in Bahrain. Tue 15 Mar 2011 15:05:37 GMT+1 Peter_Sym http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=12#comment10 Its funny how many Arabs are calling for intervention from the west (see post 2 for an example) yet scream when we intervened to remove Saddam (who killed infinitely more of his own people than Bahrain's royal family of Gaddafi could ever dream of doing). I'll support a no-fly zone over Libya on one condition: Liam Fox flies in one of the R1 Nimrods or the back seat of a Eurofighter. He's scrapped the replacement Nimrods (and smashed them to bits with a bulldozer) but now expects British Servicemen to fly in ones scheduled for retirement in March after 30 or 40 years in the air? Likewise he's claimed that 'if any Libyan missiles lock onto our aircraft that can be considered an act of war' yet is apparently ignorant of the fact that heat-seaking missiles 'locking on' can't be detected until the missile hits. I wouldn't fancy ejecting over the Sahara desert. Tue 15 Mar 2011 15:00:04 GMT+1 Interestedforeigner http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=11#comment9 Ah, once again, time for the IF International Diplomacy Translation Service.Let's start with the statement by Russian Ambassador, Vitaly Churkin at the UN. as reported on the RTT link supplied by Mark:"... with several countries, particularly Russia, expressing reservations on the move and demanded more clarifications from nations that proposed the action."[[IF translation: replace "expressing reservations on the move" with "seeing an arbitrage opportunity"; replace "clarifications", with the word "bribes". Thus the meaning is clear.]]----------"After the three-hour long closed meeting in New York, Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin told reporters that the supporters of the proposed no-fly-zone needed to provide more answers before his country could take a decision on the measure."[[Translation: "After three hours of haggling, you still haven't made the concessions we want."]]"As far as we are concerned, some fundamental questions need to be answered, not just what we need to do, but how it's going to be done. If there is a No-Fly Zone, who is going to implement a No-Fly Zone? How is the No-Fly Zone is going to be implemented?" Churkin asked."Unfortunately, so far the answers to those questions have not been provided by the main proponents of this proposal.”[[IF translation: "You still haven't answered our fundamental question. How many times do we have to make it plain, you still haven't told us what we are getting in return."]]"The Russian envoy, however, added that Russia was "open-minded" to the issue and that Moscow was "looking at various ways ...""[[IF translation: "Surprise us. Make us an offer. Here's a list of unpalatable choices. Pick three ..."]]"... in order to effect the situation in a positive way - to stop bloodshed, prevent further casualties especially among civilians, ..."[[ IF Translation: "we don't give a flying rutabega about bloodshed, or further casualties. All we want to know is "What's in it for us?"]]"... to achieve a political outcome"[[IF translation: "we think it would be highly political if we were to obtain useful concession as a result of this bargaining."]] Tue 15 Mar 2011 14:59:57 GMT+1 The Cool Ruler Rides Again http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=10#comment8 This post has been Removed Tue 15 Mar 2011 14:52:03 GMT+1 JusticeForAll http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=9#comment7 Western countries have no morality on the issue at Libya or in the Middle East as they miserably failed to resolve the Palestinians crisis.People have no faith in those leaders who are puppets of the West and the West rely on their support and OIL.When thousands of innocent people were brutally bombed and butchered in Sri Lanka in the pretext of defeating terrorism, the West has showed their dark side to the Tamils and peace loving people. Tue 15 Mar 2011 14:48:42 GMT+1 Rajiv http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=7#comment6 In reponse to post #1: These are difficult problems indeed! "Mind their business"? If there is a crime going on in my neighbourhood, would I ignore it and "mind my own business"? When some dictators shoot down people demanding some basic rights, such as the right to choose their rulers, it should be of concern to the rest of the world as well.Intervening militarily is complicated, and not always feasible. But even sanctions or condemnation is a difficult step for many countries because they have their own interests to protect. See India shamelessly supporting the monstrous Burmese regime. Would the rest of the world have intervened in China after the massacre at Tiananmen?It takes immense political courage for a politician to take such decisions. How many such politicians are there? I wish such oppressive regimes face at least some consequences! Tue 15 Mar 2011 14:36:42 GMT+1 Mirino http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=6#comment5 France has already stated that 'if necessarily' the French and the British would go ahead without a UN mandate. But things are beginning to look a little bit more promising, and it seems to be a first, to get such open support from the Arab League. Times are indeed changing. Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, may not be ready to make such public concessions, but hopefully that are intelligent or 'moderate' enough not to provoke an irrevocable issue as Gaddafi has done.Whatever the outcome in Libya, it's inconceivable that the world community accept Gaddafi as the legitimate leader. Continuing to bludgeon his way East and West to try to remain in power, won't change this. Perhaps the sooner he realises this, if he still has sufficient capacity to reason, the more lives will be spared. Tue 15 Mar 2011 14:09:47 GMT+1 GA http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=5#comment4 I wish every other nation minded their own business; specially those nations who forcefully impose their leadership on other nations. It just makes me think that these very nations are calling themselves pro-democracy. Are they forgetting their own principles that a democratic leader is the one liked/selected by those following him/her? When did Middle East like/select USA, for example, as a leader? Tue 15 Mar 2011 14:08:37 GMT+1 Pras_n_Srini http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=3#comment3 IMO, the Arab League should be the one enforcing the no-fly zone:(1) It asked for the NFZ in the second-place (first was France)(2) Its members have considerable arms (and many of those, quite late-model from US), and adequate forces to drub Qadaffy easily(3) Libya didn't overtly attack any Western (US, Canada or any European) nation yet, so these should not be involved until he doesLet the Arab League enforce the NFZ on its own! Tue 15 Mar 2011 13:45:45 GMT+1 WoeIsMe http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=2#comment2 Paragraph 6: "For Col Gaddafi seems to be doing pretty well murdering his enemies using only violence at ground level. Arming the rebels is another alternative. The danger is that they turn out to be not so good guys or indulge in massacres of their own."They already have. The BBC itself has already printed accounts of rebels slaughtering black African migrant workers. And while we're at it: why does that not raise concerns among the international community? I agree that Gaddafi is terrible and needs to go, but it concerns me that people are willing to ignore or give a "free ride" to the opposition. I understood that witch hunts against entire communities are not to be tolerated in the 21st century. Tue 15 Mar 2011 13:40:18 GMT+1 mohfreeman http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=1#comment1 Bahrain citizens & all villages and cities are getting attack by Bahrain force & Saudi ArmyJust Now 1 man get killed in Sitra & the army is trying to enter the village anyhow Army using live pullets supported by air forcePeople of Bahrain asks for international interfere immediately Tue 15 Mar 2011 13:38:16 GMT+1 The Cool Ruler Rides Again http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/03/why_therell_be_no_no-fly-zone.html?page=0#comment0 This post has been Removed Tue 15 Mar 2011 13:24:41 GMT+1