Comments for http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html en-gb 30 Fri 11 Jul 2014 21:59:48 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html CuriousAmerican http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=99#comment327 325. At 03:33am on 02 Mar 2011, powermeerkat wrote:268. At 04:56am on 01 Mar 2011, CuriousAmerican wrote:266. At 04:28am on 01 Mar 2011, Oldloadr wrote:Yes, and he [Chirac] sold SAMs to Saddam well into 2003 (the lot numbers were 2003, no mistake since the French use NATO standardized marking and tracking systems). When the Poles discovered it, the French tried to blackmail them to stay silent (threatened to veto Poland’s entry into the EU). --------------------------------------------------------------...but...but...but the media told me it was Bush, Haliburton and the Tea Party who sold him the weapons....How can this be?----------------------------------------------------------------You've obviously been listening to Fox News rather than to NPR/PBS. :-)))----------------------------------------------------------------Yes, the Democrat/Liberal media establishment told me that ALL war with an "R" is bad and WAR with a "D" is good...so it must be true...Global Warming is now "Climate Change"...In other words weather changes temperatures....who knew? Wed 02 Mar 2011 19:17:43 GMT+1 CuriousAmerican http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=99#comment326 270. At 08:55am on 01 Mar 2011, SONICBOOMER wrote:You've taken offense to my remarks to effectiveness of the UN and European "leadership"....Note I didn't say anthing about NATO, which is effective and real....My apologizes to the British service men and women....You are awesome and great...The Brits are the ONLY country we can really count on when the bullets start flying. Despite the efforts of the libsHowever it would be accurate to conclude that I have UTTER contempt for the UN and EU professional debating society. Wed 02 Mar 2011 19:10:32 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=99#comment325 "... you must be American ?"Chryses: "Not only am I an American, but I'm correct, and you are mistaken."PM: Chryses, if you're an American you can't possibly be correct.A least not in the eyes of those politically correct. [no 'duplicitous, greedy Yankee imperialist' can possibly ever be right] Wed 02 Mar 2011 03:58:28 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=98#comment324 268. At 04:56am on 01 Mar 2011, CuriousAmerican wrote:266. At 04:28am on 01 Mar 2011, Oldloadr wrote:Yes, and he [Chirac] sold SAMs to Saddam well into 2003 (the lot numbers were 2003, no mistake since the French use NATO standardized marking and tracking systems). When the Poles discovered it, the French tried to blackmail them to stay silent (threatened to veto Poland’s entry into the EU). --------------------------------------------------------------...but...but...but the media told me it was Bush, Haliburton and the Tea Party who sold him the weapons....How can this be?You've obviously been listening to Fox News rather than to NPR/PBS. :-))) Wed 02 Mar 2011 03:33:08 GMT+1 Chryses http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=98#comment323 quietoaktree, (#321. At 11:45pm on 01 Mar 2011)"... 'The truth or falsehood of that claim does not change the fact that the Communist ideology, and its associated State Atheism, is responsible for many millions more deaths than any other ideology (the body of doctrine, myth, belief, etc., that guides an individual, social movement, institution, class, or large group), which includes all religions.'What ????? . . "My claim is uncomplicated. The Communist ideology, with its associated State Atheism, is responsible for many millions more deaths than any other ideology."... Prove It ! ..."OK. If you follow the link I provide below, you'll be able to read the assessment of the cost, in human deaths, of the Communist ideology. A low figure is ~40 million. A midpoint figure is ~100 million. A high figure is ~260 million.http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTMSelecting the midpoint of 100 million places the Communist ideology at the top of the list of ideological killers. Do feel free to provide your own research, with references of course, contesting Dr. Rummel's data or inferences. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolph_RummelTake your time. I'll wait."... 500 years of world colonialism with the accompanying Capitalism, religion and slavery is responsible for fewer deaths ..."If you read what I wrote, not what you want to believe I wrote, you would have noticed that I wrote "many millions more deaths than any other ideology," and not "many millions more deaths than all the other ideologies combined," which is, of course, what you have done in your example I quote above: added Colonialism + Capitalism + Religion (adding all religions together there!) + Slavery.Fail."... you must be American ?"Not only am I an American, but I'm correct, and you are mistaken. Wed 02 Mar 2011 02:18:26 GMT+1 Chryses http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=98#comment322 JMM, (#322. At 01:05am on 02 Mar 2011)Chryses, my friend, I am surprised you didn’t ask for a definition of democracy and a list of "true" democracies who have engaged in genocide ...”I focused on the Red Herring.”... Note the word “true.” When the US engaged in what, in some cases, could be termed genocidal actions, it might be argued that the US was only a proto-democracy. I think that might be true of Australia, as well. When a country becomes a true democracy, does it engage in such things?”True, the frequency of those excesses does then drop rapidly. Wed 02 Mar 2011 01:41:28 GMT+1 McJakome http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=97#comment321 319. At 11:08pm on 01 Mar 2011, Chryses wrote: Simon21, (#291. At 1:34pm on 01 Mar 2011)"... As Australian Koories could tell you democracies are perfectly capable of genocide."Chryses, my friend, I am surprised you didn’t ask for a definition of democracy and a list of "true" democracies who have engaged in genocide.Note the word “true.” When the US engaged in what, in some cases, could be termed genocidal actions, it might be argued that the US was only a proto-democracy. I think that might be true of Australia, as well. When a country becomes a true democracy, does it engage in such things? Wed 02 Mar 2011 01:05:07 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=97#comment320 #319 Chryses"The truth or falsehood of that claim does not change the fact that the Communist ideology, and its associated State Atheism, is responsible for many millions more deaths than any other ideology (the body of doctrine, myth, belief, etc., that guides an individual, social movement, institution, class, or large group), which includes all religions."What ?????Prove It !500 years of world colonialism with the accompanying Capitalism, religion and slavery is responsible for fewer deaths --you must be American ? Tue 01 Mar 2011 23:45:33 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=97#comment319 #286 Champagne Charlie"Yes, the plethora of statues of Bismarck and Wilhelm II reminded me of those of Victoria and Bonaparte."I wholly agree with you.The problem arises when present Foreign Policy is a continuation of Victoria and Bonaparte.Germany does not have this failing --because of WWll -- the other mentioned do. Tue 01 Mar 2011 23:30:01 GMT+1 Chryses http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=96#comment318 Simon21, (#291. At 1:34pm on 01 Mar 2011)"... Depending on the quality of data ...Will you be supplying any to substantiate your opinion?"... I just thought I had provided you with some documentation but I fail to see any comment?Do you know MacNeil? ..."No, you did not, and no, I do not. Please provide useful references to sources you rely upon."... As I say I do not think so and the documentation you supplied is not very convincing. The references were not very impressive. And teh conclusion about State Power was inane as was its reference to democracy ..."Which references were unsatisfactory? Upon what do you base your opinion that the conclusion was "inane," as in silly, absurd, ridiculous, idiotic, etc.?"... As Australian Koories could tell you democracies are perfectly capable of genocide."The truth or falsehood of that claim does not change the fact that the Communist ideology, and its associated State Atheism, is responsible for many millions more deaths than any other ideology (the body of doctrine, myth, belief, etc., that guides an individual, social movement, institution, class, or large group), which includes all religions.You will need to provide some substantiation for your opinions and claims if you want people to take them seriously. Tue 01 Mar 2011 23:08:04 GMT+1 chronophobe http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=96#comment317 re: 91 LucyJUSA is a democracy...That means majority rules...What is more important- to be a democracy or to have non-democratic equality?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_StatesAn excerpt:As of November 2009, when a same-sex marriage law in Maine was repealed by referendum, same-sex marriage had been defeated in all 31 states in which it had been directly put to a popular vote.US democracy is not simply a question of 'majority rules.' The question of fundamental rights, as spelled out in the Constitution and embedded in the law, are not subject to the whims of a majority vote. The issue is to my mind that the Constitution and its subsequent interpretations over time have consistently upheld freedom (for example of speech, of religion, and yes, of sexuality) to be the highest good of public policy. And this is a very good thing. Given the choice between freedom and 'truth,' in public policy, I will take freedom every time. The highest truth, the guiding star of our secular democracies, is that each individual should be allowed a maximum of freedom to explore his or her own interests and develop his or her own potentials. There is no single 'moral compass' that is suitable for all. If the freedoms protected by law offend you, you have an almost unlimited right to disagree, to voice your disagreement, and to proscribe behaviours you find objectionable within the practice of your particular belief system.You cannot, however, expect the particular values of your belief system, no matter how fervently you might believe them to be absolutely true, to override the imperative of public freedom. Tue 01 Mar 2011 22:42:38 GMT+1 SONICBOOMER http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=96#comment316 This post has been Removed Tue 01 Mar 2011 18:23:23 GMT+1 LucyJ http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=96#comment315 Simon: The Bible contains far more calls to violence and admiration of bloodshed then practically any other holy book.----------------You mean like the simple verse, Thou shall not kill?I can't think of any Bible verses in which it says it is okay to lie and kill and be terrorist for ur religion, can u?----------------Simon: Well he hasn't gone around shooting congresswomen and nine year old girls, prattling about blood guilt and issuing rascist threats.---------------So now you want to talk about Arizona shooter?What does that have to do with Obama?Possibly preventable if the school had turned it into police why they kicked him out or if someone had reached out to help him or if we have more good mental institutions in USA and someone had referred him...and what about the fact that he lived with his parents, who neighbors described as hermits?I don't look down upon ppl who are mentally ill, like schizo and whatnot, but I do look down on ppl who hurt others, whehter they are mentally ill or not...Anyway, that was not political, it was a case of someone who went psychologically insane toward the dark side and chose negativity rather than positivity...-------------Simon: Yes people "like him" should know their place - in the cleaning room or parking cars.-------------Ur stance...not mine...never said such...---------------Simon: In fact his handling of he Arab spring has been masterful. If Bush had been there they would have already started counting the US casualties and wondering where on the map these countries were.-------------And ur supposing is an if, Simon...Regardless, Bush's term was up...it would have been what McCain would have done...or even possibly Palin...If it was McCain, he is former military man, he knows what its like and he probabaly would be doing much better job... Tue 01 Mar 2011 17:30:45 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=95#comment314 313. At 4:42pm on 01 Mar 2011, powermeerkat wrote:" Well the US trades with Muammar"Oh, really?I thought U.S. has bombed Muammar and froze his personal assets. :-)"And sold him his oil drilling equipment. Did you forget that? You know when US oil businessmen were lining up to get a "slice of that action."Amnesia is a terrrible thing, you have my sincere sympathy. Tue 01 Mar 2011 16:59:11 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=95#comment313 311. At 4:38pm on 01 Mar 2011, powermeerkat wrote:"Really? bit of a fantsy there Chechnya and Dagestan. Both with pro Russian Governments"Promulgating Kremlin propaganda doesn't work anymore."Oh? Like pretending as you still do that Georgia won its week long war?That goes beyond propaganda into the world of fantasy.I live the real world, come and join us some time Mr Birch------------------------------------------------------------------------Even Russians know by now that mafia-type regimes imposed in Chechnya, Dagestan, Ingushetia, etc., by Moscow maybe nominally pro-Kremlin, but their populations clearly aren't.Yes but the trouble they cauae Moscow is less than a band of Mexican gangsters is causing the US. Mind you I beleive the US/Mexican border is the last place you can see actual cruxifictions.Can't remember when the US won a land war in only seven days, was it Grenada?-----------------------------------------------------------------------It seems comrades' pipe dreams about seeing Motherland of the World Proletariat restored to its former might are just...well... pipe-dreams.Yes yes very profound. But the Moscow ministry of defence hasn't just told its troops that anyone who deplaoys them needs their heads read.Very morale boosting that comment. Very sad also sic transit gloria Tue 01 Mar 2011 16:56:01 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=95#comment312 " Well the US trades with Muammar"Oh, really?I thought U.S. has bombed Muammar and froze his personal assets. :-) Tue 01 Mar 2011 16:42:54 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=94#comment311 308. At 4:11pm on 01 Mar 2011, LucyJ wrote:Well, the best way to ease tensions between Americans would be to vote Obama out of office next election....In this time when Americans need to come togehter, President Obama is trying to push us further apart by taking controversial stances on religious and moral issues..."Well he hasn't gone around shooting congresswomen and nine year old girls, prattling about blood guilt and issuing rascist threats.Neither has he ranted about a "performing negro"has he.---------------------------------------------------------------------President Obama is what I personally call "the Great Divider"If America wants to be united, vote for anyone besides Obama!(Dem or otherwise)If America wants to be divided, who do you call?Obama!-------------------------------------------------------------------------Yes people "like him" should know their place - in the cleaning room or parking cars.In fact his handling of he Arab spring has been masterful. If Bush had been there they would have already started counting the US casualties and wondering where on the map these countries were. Tue 01 Mar 2011 16:40:16 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=94#comment310 "Really? bit of a fantsy there Chechnya and Dagestan. Both with pro Russian Governments"Promulgating Kremlin propaganda doesn't work anymore.Even Russians know by now that mafia-type regimes imposed in Chechnya, Dagestan, Ingushetia, etc., by Moscow maybe nominally pro-Kremlin, but their populations clearly aren't.[any Moscow metro, Moscow- St.Peterburg express train or Domodedovo airport user is aware of that by now]It seems comrades' pipe dreams about seeing Motherland of the World Proletariat restored to its former might are just...well... pipe-dreams. Tue 01 Mar 2011 16:38:08 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=94#comment309 307. At 4:07pm on 01 Mar 2011, LucyJ wrote:Simon: Mighty Russia seems to handle its wars a bit better than the mighty US. Georgia - 1 week, US in Afghanistan er 8 years--------------Only b/c our forces have held back...way too much...Yes like Genl Hooker et al used to explain to Lincoln, again and again.By the time US forces got their trousers on Georgia had been conquered.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------John: The Koran forbids terrorism and suicide--------------What about the verse about how its okay to lie or kill infidels for your religion?Didn't know you read Classical Arabic.But there are plentyof authorised translated verses from teh bible advocating blood and thunder.The Bible contains far more calls to violence and admiration of bloodshed then practically any other holy book. Tue 01 Mar 2011 16:35:01 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=93#comment308 304. At 3:11pm on 01 Mar 2011, Interestedforeigner wrote:From the BBC:" #1434: French European Affairs Minister Laurent Wauquiez has said freezing the assets of Col Gaddafi's family and associates would be a more effective way of halting the repression of protesters than a military no-fly zone. "Libya is twice the size of France. So is it even possible to set up a no-fly zone quickly, and would it be effective?" he asked."[[What a load of crap. They only have to control the airspace over the Mediterranean littoral from Benghazi to the Tunisian border, and principally from Sirte to Miserta. The guy only has a handful of functioning aircraft. Break the main spar in the fixed wing aircraft, disable the engines in the rotary wing aircraft, make his airstrips inoperable and deny him fuel and spare parts. Use ECM to shut down his ability to communicate or to operate air-defense weapons. It isn't that difficult. All of it can be done with stand-off weapons, or drones, without risk to allied airmen.]]----------"Instead, he said, the priority should be "cutting off Gaddafi's money because the main risk is that he uses this money to pay an army of mercenaries."[[Yeah, that's going to work really well. That won't take more than, oh, thirty more years to work. In the meantime he'll just have to get by with his Belarus ATM.]]#1431: France has said humanitarian aid must be the priority in Libya rather than diplomacy or military action to oust Col Gaddafi. The country has sent to planes with medical equipment and staff to the opposition-controlled city of Benghazi and more will follow. "We are absolutely horrified by what's happening," government spokesman Francois Baroin said. "We are co-ordinating with other members of the European Union on humanitarian aid."[[Bunch of cheeze-eating surrender-monkeys.]][[Humanitarian aid is good, and necessary, and is needed immediately, fair enough. But it is no substitute for solving the problem at its root.Why is it that the French are so determined to make every possible excuse not to take any kind of concrete step to end this bad farce? How many different ways can they find to do nothing?]]----------The Libyan opposition is disorganized. The madman acts with, well, "single-mindedness". Allowing him to regain his balance and to take the initiative is a terrible mistake. A week ago the only thing protecting him was a tan-coloured umbrella. Now he's gone back on the offensive. to both the west and east of Tripoli.Best way to stop the humanitarian disaster from getting worse is to end this thing today.Best way to stop more Libyans from being killed is to end this thing today.Best way to stop the madman from re-gaining the initiative and re-establshing his hold in the communities in Tripolitania is to end this thing today.Best way to prevent Libya from descending into civil war is to end this thing today.Best way to get Libya's economy back working normally is to end this thing today.Quit pussy-footing around.-------------------------------------------------------------------------It is by no means so easy as you might think. If you remove a government you become responsible for the country concerned. And given that the only sort of miliatry ction contemplated would be bombing, collateral casualties could be severe. Tue 01 Mar 2011 16:12:40 GMT+1 LucyJ http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=93#comment307 Jmm: This is an important issue because if Americans allow the fanatics and inciters to control the debate, hostility could turn much more serious than it already has. Both sides are aggressive, those who want to officially define the US as a Christian Country and put the Bible into science classes are aggressing, and the extreme secularists return the aggression by demanding the removal of religious issues from all public spaces. --------------Well, the best way to ease tensions between Americans would be to vote Obama out of office next election....In this time when Americans need to come togehter, President Obama is trying to push us further apart by taking controversial stances on religious and moral issues...President Obama is what I personally call "the Great Divider"If America wants to be united, vote for anyone besides Obama!(Dem or otherwise)If America wants to be divided, who do you call?Obama! Tue 01 Mar 2011 16:11:14 GMT+1 LucyJ http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=93#comment306 Simon: Mighty Russia seems to handle its wars a bit better than the mighty US. Georgia - 1 week, US in Afghanistan er 8 years--------------Only b/c our forces have held back...way too much...---------------John: The Koran forbids terrorism and suicide--------------What about the verse about how its okay to lie or kill infidels for your religion? Tue 01 Mar 2011 16:07:04 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=92#comment305 305. At 3:38pm on 01 Mar 2011, MagicKirin wrote:but today there are no Columbia death squads and Pol Pot is gone, so why not be relvant?Really? that will be news to Amerinds who the death squads tried to annihlate and how many have been brought to trial?And teh effects of Pol Pot are still felt (like his landmines) - like jews still feel the effects of Adolph - Where is the US apology and compensation? Tue 01 Mar 2011 16:03:01 GMT+1 MagicKirin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=92#comment304 ref #292It would be a good idea to wait for requests before bribing bloodthirsty dictators and selling them torture devices.-------------------------------------------------------------------------You could put the names of chavez, Morales, Quadaffi or Mugabe and the context would be accurateOr you could choose the Colombian death squads and their attempted genocides,using guns supplied by the US, Pol Pot who was supported in his resistance to the Vietnamese______________but today there are no Columbia death squads and Pol Pot is gone, so why not be relvant? Tue 01 Mar 2011 15:38:40 GMT+1 Interestedforeigner http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=92#comment303 From the BBC:" #1434: French European Affairs Minister Laurent Wauquiez has said freezing the assets of Col Gaddafi's family and associates would be a more effective way of halting the repression of protesters than a military no-fly zone. "Libya is twice the size of France. So is it even possible to set up a no-fly zone quickly, and would it be effective?" he asked."[[What a load of crap. They only have to control the airspace over the Mediterranean littoral from Benghazi to the Tunisian border, and principally from Sirte to Miserta. The guy only has a handful of functioning aircraft. Break the main spar in the fixed wing aircraft, disable the engines in the rotary wing aircraft, make his airstrips inoperable and deny him fuel and spare parts. Use ECM to shut down his ability to communicate or to operate air-defense weapons. It isn't that difficult. All of it can be done with stand-off weapons, or drones, without risk to allied airmen.]]----------"Instead, he said, the priority should be "cutting off Gaddafi's money because the main risk is that he uses this money to pay an army of mercenaries."[[Yeah, that's going to work really well. That won't take more than, oh, thirty more years to work. In the meantime he'll just have to get by with his Belarus ATM.]]#1431: France has said humanitarian aid must be the priority in Libya rather than diplomacy or military action to oust Col Gaddafi. The country has sent to planes with medical equipment and staff to the opposition-controlled city of Benghazi and more will follow. "We are absolutely horrified by what's happening," government spokesman Francois Baroin said. "We are co-ordinating with other members of the European Union on humanitarian aid."[[Bunch of cheeze-eating surrender-monkeys.]][[Humanitarian aid is good, and necessary, and is needed immediately, fair enough. But it is no substitute for solving the problem at its root.Why is it that the French are so determined to make every possible excuse not to take any kind of concrete step to end this bad farce? How many different ways can they find to do nothing?]]----------The Libyan opposition is disorganized. The madman acts with, well, "single-mindedness". Allowing him to regain his balance and to take the initiative is a terrible mistake. A week ago the only thing protecting him was a tan-coloured umbrella. Now he's gone back on the offensive. to both the west and east of Tripoli.Best way to stop the humanitarian disaster from getting worse is to end this thing today.Best way to stop more Libyans from being killed is to end this thing today.Best way to stop the madman from re-gaining the initiative and re-establshing his hold in the communities in Tripolitania is to end this thing today.Best way to prevent Libya from descending into civil war is to end this thing today.Best way to get Libya's economy back working normally is to end this thing today.Quit pussy-footing around. Tue 01 Mar 2011 15:11:55 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=92#comment302 299. At 2:18pm on 01 Mar 2011, powermeerkat wrote:"Cuba's plans to lay off half a million state workers by the end of March are behind schedule, President Raul Castro has acknowledged. Mr Castro, quoted by state television, said the timetable for the cuts would be altered to soften their impact. The redundancies form part of plans to revive Cuba's struggling economy, an issue due to be discussed at a rare Communist Party Congress in April. The Cuban government currently employs about 85% of the official workforce." (BBC News).How many is the US laying off? Or taking on? Oh Dear!It seems Fidel and Raul don't want to share their friend Muammar's plight."Well the US trades with Muammar. Castro should have discovered oil Tue 01 Mar 2011 15:02:10 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=91#comment301 298. At 2:10pm on 01 Mar 2011, powermeerkat wrote:"Mighty Russia seems to handle its wars a bit better than the mighty US. Georgia - 1 week, US in Afghanistan er 8 years"Mighty Russia has most certainly not conquered little Georgia, nor has it managed to topple its pro-Western government."Beat it though eh and stationed a permanent gasrrison on is territory.[nay, it looks like it's getting quite a payback now for its crimes in Chechnya and Dagestan and doesn't know what to do about it]Really? bit of a fantsy there Chechnya and Dagestan. Both with pro Russian Governments-------------------------------------------------------------------------And as for what Russia got in Afghanistan: I'd rather be in Brisbane.So would the Afghans and US army. Lessee genl Petreaus apparently wants to cut and run (can't find enough mercenaries to do the fighting?). How many US commanders does that make? Tue 01 Mar 2011 14:59:41 GMT+1 champagne_charlie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=91#comment300 #295simon;http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/dewiki/en/Kaiser-Wilhelm-Denkm%C3%A4lerhttp://www.worldlingo.com/ma/dewiki/en/Liste_der_Kaiser-Wilhelm-II.-Denkmälerhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bismarck_monumentsA comprehensive list of Bonaparte monuments is best researched yourself as they are disperate and often in French. But one needs look no further than the Arc de Triomphe, glorifying Napoleonic battle victories, and showing brave (naked) French youths defending France from Germanic invaders. Hence why Bismarck decided to march German troops through it in 1871 and Hitler in 1940. We are all as bad as each other. Tue 01 Mar 2011 14:56:27 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=91#comment299 This post has been Removed Tue 01 Mar 2011 14:28:49 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=90#comment298 "Cuba's plans to lay off half a million state workers by the end of March are behind schedule, President Raul Castro has acknowledged. Mr Castro, quoted by state television, said the timetable for the cuts would be altered to soften their impact. The redundancies form part of plans to revive Cuba's struggling economy, an issue due to be discussed at a rare Communist Party Congress in April. The Cuban government currently employs about 85% of the official workforce." (BBC News)It seems Fidel and Raul don't want to share their friend Muammar's plight.Now, 'bout that yet another artificial famine in North Korea.... Tue 01 Mar 2011 14:18:07 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=90#comment297 "Mighty Russia seems to handle its wars a bit better than the mighty US. Georgia - 1 week, US in Afghanistan er 8 years"Mighty Russia has most certainly not conquered little Georgia, nor has it managed to topple its pro-Western government.[nay, it looks like it's getting quite a payback now for its crimes in Chechnya and Dagestan and doesn't know what to do about it]And as for what Russia got in Afghanistan: I'd rather be in Brisbane. Tue 01 Mar 2011 14:10:51 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=90#comment296 290. At 1:31pm on 01 Mar 2011, powermeerkat wrote:Re #283 Chryses..."Both Mao and Stalin promoted atheism as a component of Communism. That ideology has rather more blood on its hands than any religion of which I am aware"Both Pol Pot and The Butcher of Tibet, Hujintao, have been firm atheists.Is that true? Pol Pot raised his beliefs to the status of a religion and the concept of "true beleivers" is a religious one.Now, anybody wants to discuss believes of Castro, Ceausescu, Mengistu Haile Mariam, Ulbricht, as well as Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il? :-)Any time. Would you like to discus Hitler? Stalin, Franco, Charles V, Hong Xiuquan, Torquemdada, Mugabe (a catholic), Haile Selasie, Queen Victoria, Willhelm II every ruler before 1915?Lot of bodies Tue 01 Mar 2011 14:09:59 GMT+1 The Cool Ruler Rides Again http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=89#comment295 This post has been Removed Tue 01 Mar 2011 13:52:30 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=89#comment294 286. At 1:10pm on 01 Mar 2011, champagne_charlie wrote:quietoaktree;"-- Yes, the world would have been a better place if some nations never had ´Delusions of Grandeur´--is that your implication ? "Yes, the plethora of statues of Bismarck and Wilhelm II reminded me of those of Victoria and Bonaparte.-------------------------------------------------------------------------I have seen very, very few statues of Bismark, Napoleon and none at all of Willhelm II.Where are these numbers to be found Tue 01 Mar 2011 13:41:59 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=89#comment293 289. At 1:24pm on 01 Mar 2011, powermeerkat wrote:"Here are some who might help: Norway, Poland, Belgium, Denmark, Turkey, Egypt"How about mighty Russia, IF?Mighty Russia seems to handle its wars a bit better than the mighty US. Georgia - 1 week, US in Afghanistan er 8 yearsWhat did Mr Gates say about using the US army again? One sadly must agree with him given the current fiascos. Tue 01 Mar 2011 13:40:27 GMT+1 PartTimeDon http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=89#comment292 Ref#282 quietoaktree_________Worthy considering that when first applied "Thou shalt not murder" really meant "Thou shalt not murder members of your own tribe - but its okay when it comes to foreigners, slaves or anyone who does something bad enough".Thou shalt not kill applying to all humanity is a fairly modern idea. Tue 01 Mar 2011 13:39:27 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=88#comment291 285. At 1:06pm on 01 Mar 2011, MagicKirin wrote:As far as what other countries expect the U.S what to do.the late Art Buchwald (who skewered left and right) did a column many years ago about a left wing revlutionary talk to a U.S represetative.The gist was the U.S should humble and humiliate itself always and give in to demands for money and anything else to make up for any imigined insult."It would be a good idea to wait for requests before bribing bloodthirsty dictators and selling them torture devices.-------------------------------------------------------------------------You could put the names of chavez, Morales, Quadaffi or Mugabe and the context would be accurateOr you could choose the Colombian death squads and their attempted genocides,using guns supplied by the US, Pol Pot who was supported in his resistance to the Vietnamese Tue 01 Mar 2011 13:36:47 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=88#comment290 283. At 12:04pm on 01 Mar 2011, Chryses wrote:Simon21, (#280. At 11:22am on 01 Mar 2011)"... I would disagree ..."Nothing wrong with that at all. That's one way to learn. It is customary to substantiate, or warrant one's opinion's with data."------------------------------------------------------------------------Depending on the quality of data------------------------------------------------------------------------"... We simply do not know precisely how many native Americans died from attempts to "convert" them but McNeil in Plagues and Peoples considers it to be one of the most enormous genocides and recent discoveries of annihlated cultures seem to back him up ..."Ignorance != Knowledge. You have been unpersuaded by the documentation I provided. Why? Please provide numbers to warrant your difference of opinion.I just thought I had provided you with some documentation but I fail to see any comment?Do you know MacNeil?-------------------------------------------------------------------------"... And Stalin was a seminarian who repeatedly said that christian training was good for a communist.That of course leaves Mao, but he comes nowhere near the Taiping rebellion in terms of slaughter. And the leader of the Tai Pings was, yes you guessed it, a christian."Both Mao and Stalin promoted atheism as a component of Communism. That ideology has rather more blood on its hands than any religion of which I am aware.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheismAs I say I do not think so and the documentation you supplied is not very convincing. The references were not very impressive. And teh conclusion about State Power was inane as was its reference to democracy.As Australian Koories could tell you democracies are perfectly capable of genocide. Tue 01 Mar 2011 13:34:01 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=88#comment289 Re #283 Chryses..."Both Mao and Stalin promoted atheism as a component of Communism. That ideology has rather more blood on its hands than any religion of which I am aware"Both Pol Pot and The Butcher of Tibet, Hujintao, have been firm atheists.Now, anybody wants to discuss believes of Castro, Ceausescu, Mengistu Haile Mariam, Ulbricht, as well as Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il? :-) Tue 01 Mar 2011 13:31:46 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=87#comment288 "Here are some who might help: Norway, Poland, Belgium, Denmark, Turkey, Egypt"How about mighty Russia, IF?Moscow has just called Gaddafi (whom it had armed for decades) "a living corpse". :-) Tue 01 Mar 2011 13:24:34 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=87#comment287 Oldloadr: " he [Jacques Osirak] sold SAMs to Saddam well into 2003 (the lot numbers were 2003, no mistake since the French use NATO standardized marking and tracking systems). When the Poles discovered it, the French tried to blackmail them to stay silent (threatened to veto Poland’s entry into the EU).Correct. Polish officers - obviously not being diplomats - reported initially that Roland-3 missiles discovered by their troops in Iraq had markings indicating they were manufactured AFTER a UN embargo on arms deliveries to Saddam's Iraq came into force. Now, should we discuss the ' French Connection' (certain Alain Juppe comes to mind) to Rwanda Massacre?Or let it slide? Tue 01 Mar 2011 13:21:46 GMT+1 strontiumdog http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=87#comment286 This post has been Removed Tue 01 Mar 2011 13:17:30 GMT+1 champagne_charlie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=86#comment285 quietoaktree;"-- Yes, the world would have been a better place if some nations never had ´Delusions of Grandeur´--is that your implication ? "Yes, the plethora of statues of Bismarck and Wilhelm II reminded me of those of Victoria and Bonaparte. Tue 01 Mar 2011 13:10:06 GMT+1 MagicKirin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=86#comment284 As far as what other countries expect the U.S what to do.the late Art Buchwald (who skewered left and right) did a column many years ago about a left wing revlutionary talk to a U.S represetative.The gist was the U.S should humble and humiliate itself always and give in to demands for money and anything else to make up for any imigined insult.You could put the names of chavez, Morales, Quadaffi or Mugabe and the context would be accurate Tue 01 Mar 2011 13:06:46 GMT+1 McJakome http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=86#comment283 281. At 11:32am on 01 Mar 2011, Simon21 wrote: “Yes carrying this to its logical conclusion there are practically no christians, and there never have been.”Spare me! You expect logic from people who use a book full of contradictions and who deal with the contradictions either by ignoring them or by twisting the meaning around so that the contradictions agree. Logic makes no impression on closed minds, and attempting to use logic to open the minds appears to be quite futile. Tue 01 Mar 2011 12:30:43 GMT+1 Chryses http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=85#comment282 Simon21, (#280. At 11:22am on 01 Mar 2011)"... I would disagree ..."Nothing wrong with that at all. That's one way to learn. It is customary to substantiate, or warrant one's opinion's with data."... We simply do not know precisely how many native Americans died from attempts to "convert" them but McNeil in Plagues and Peoples considers it to be one of the most enormous genocides and recent discoveries of annihlated cultures seem to back him up ..."Ignorance != Knowledge. You have been unpersuaded by the documentation I provided. Why? Please provide numbers to warrant your difference of opinion."... And Stalin was a seminarian who repeatedly said that christian training was good for a communist.That of course leaves Mao, but he comes nowhere near the Taiping rebellion in terms of slaughter. And the leader of the Tai Pings was, yes you guessed it, a christian."Both Mao and Stalin promoted atheism as a component of Communism. That ideology has rather more blood on its hands than any religion of which I am aware.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism Tue 01 Mar 2011 12:04:54 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=85#comment281 Substitute -- Any nationality you wish !http://02varvara.wordpress.com/2008/11/27/the-church-reminds-us-that-the-blessing-of-weapons-does-not-contradict-the-commandment-“thou-shalt-not-murder”/ Tue 01 Mar 2011 11:34:36 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=85#comment280 278. At 11:17am on 01 Mar 2011, John_From_Dublin wrote:Or are we saying that those anti-Semitic Christians weren’t really Christians at all....-------------------------------------------------------------------------Yes carrying this to its logical conclusion there are practically no christians, and there never have been. Tue 01 Mar 2011 11:32:00 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=85#comment279 277. At 10:42am on 01 Mar 2011, Chryses wrote:Simon21, (#273. At 10:18am on 01 Mar 2011)”... Chritainity [sic] as a religion is soaked in blood like no other.”http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12605659If one examines the data on deaths due to ideology, I would suggest that, on balance, Christianity is soaked in blood like any other, and deaths from any religion are much lower than the death count in countries where Communism was imposed.http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM-------------------------------------------------------------------------I would disagree. We simply do not know precisely how many native Americans died from attempts to "convert" them but McNeil in Plagues and Peoples considers it to be one of the most enormous genocides and recent discoveries of annihlated cultures seem to back him up.And Stalin was a seminarian who repeatedly said that christian training was good for a communist.That of course leaves Mao, but he comes nowhere near the Taiping rebellion in terms of slaughter. And the leader of the Tai Pings was, yes you guessed it, a christian. Tue 01 Mar 2011 11:22:04 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=84#comment278 276. At 10:42am on 01 Mar 2011, Oldloadr wrote:273. At 10:18am on 01 Mar 2011, Simon21 wrote:Since you refuse to acknowledge the difference between a Church member and a Christian and you can't understand one of the simplest of all Biblical texts, there is nothing more to debate. I know what I know and you believe what suits you to believe.-----------------------------------------------------------------------You cannot accept the truth about Christians, that is not surprising. I kobviously know a lot more about the subject than you.As for "chrurch going" I have no idea how church going members of the Action Gruppen were, but I do know large numbers described themselves as religious and were accepted by their chruches as such.I also know that the men (and it was largely men) who oversaw the hideous massacres in the Americas SE Asia, Australia etc were far more pious in the observance of their faith then their modern counterparts including people like you.Christianity became soaked in blood from the time its leaders decided to tie it to the powers that be. Tue 01 Mar 2011 11:17:59 GMT+1 John_From_Dublin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=84#comment277 Me at #250‘Or is your case that anyone involved in the Holocaust was by definition not a Christian? Which is a classically circular argument’# 265 Oldloadr A long bible quote, then “Going to church doesn’t make one a Christian any more than sleeping in the garage makes one a Mercedes Benz…’So in short the answer is ‘yes’. Not one single Christian was involved in the Holocaust – that was essentially your original claim - because by definition anyone involved in the Holocaust could not have been a Christian? Very convenient. (What for example of a Christian who thought his collaboration was wrong but was too afraid to object? Are all Christians really that brave?) Presumably therefore, no Christian has ever eg owned slaves, been in the KKK, been in prison, or ever done anything wrong?Supposing an Islamic theologian said ‘it is wrong to refer to terrorists or suicide bombers as Muslims. The Koran forbids terrorism and suicide. Hence anyone who commits them cannot be a Muslim’? I somehow doubt he would be taken too seriously. Or is this like the conservatives who like to dub any conservative who they think isn’t conservative enough a RINO – Republican In Name Only?For the record, I have no doubt that there are many who claim to be Christian and have little regard for the teachings of Christ. There are no doubt many bad Christians. But it’s a bit too neat to say anyone who does something bad isn’t a real Christian.And surely one cannot totally separate Nazi anti-Semitism from Christian anti-Semitism through the centuries?Or are we saying that those anti-Semitic Christians weren’t really Christians at all.... Tue 01 Mar 2011 11:17:03 GMT+1 Chryses http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=84#comment276 Simon21, (#273. At 10:18am on 01 Mar 2011)”... Chritainity [sic] as a religion is soaked in blood like no other.”http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12605659If one examines the data on deaths due to ideology, I would suggest that, on balance, Christianity is soaked in blood like any other, and deaths from any religion are much lower than the death count in countries where Communism was imposed.http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM Tue 01 Mar 2011 10:42:54 GMT+1 Oldloadr http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=83#comment275 273. At 10:18am on 01 Mar 2011, Simon21 wrote:Since you refuse to acknowledge the difference between a Church member and a Christian and you can't understand one of the simplest of all Biblical texts, there is nothing more to debate. I know what I know and you believe what suits you to believe. Tue 01 Mar 2011 10:42:36 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=83#comment274 Could we have some common sense please -- when discussing the Holocaust !--- many flags should be at half-mast !http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/llt/51/pauwels.html Tue 01 Mar 2011 10:40:42 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=83#comment273 #269 Champagne Charlie-- Yes, the world would have been a better place if some nations never had ´Delusions of Grandeur´--is that your implication ? Tue 01 Mar 2011 10:31:37 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=82#comment272 239. At 4:32pm on 28 Feb 2011, Oldloadr wrote:235. At 3:29pm on 28 Feb 2011, Simon21 wrote:Leaving out the fact of the holocaust - conducted and enforced by christians, as was Rwanda___________________________________________Do you really believe that?Guess you have never heard of Martin Niemöller and his colleagues."Sorry its a fact. Catholics were prominent in the action gruppen as concentration camp guards.Martin neimoller was a christian victim - so what? You need to learn to make an argument.---------------------------------------------------------------------------http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6llerHow about Pope John Paul II…How about Pope Pius who refused to condemn the nazis?--------------------------------------------------------------------------http://www.post-gazette.com/forum/20000305rodgers3.aspMaybe Cory Ten Boomhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrie_ten_BoomThese are just a small sample of what Christians did during the Holocaust. There were no Christians participating in the Holocaust.---------------------------------------------------------------------- As an ignorant,stupid remark insulting to the victims this would be hard to beat.The very origins of the holocaust are christian.I notice you do not mention rwanda, or the Latin American genocides, etc.Chritainity as a religion is soaked in blood like no other. Tue 01 Mar 2011 10:18:12 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=82#comment271 #269 Champagne Charlie"But if absolution is indeed measureable by Euros spent or numbers of memorials erected, then Berlin is now the most absolved place on the planet."--- You have obviously NOT lived in Germany.-- flag-waving nationalism is frowned upon -- they admit its consequences.--and that you denigrate ???? Tue 01 Mar 2011 10:17:06 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=82#comment270 265. At 04:16am on 01 Mar 2011, Oldloadr wrote:250. At 8:58pm on 28 Feb 2011, John_From_Dublin wrote:It took place in Europe, which was mostly a Christian continent. Not one of the Germans involved in the Holocaust was a Christian? Not one of those who collaborated in conquered countries was a Christian? (AFAIK the Vichy regime in France was a conservative Catholic one.)____________________________________________________________________http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25&version=NIVAccording to the eternal head of the universal Church (From Matthew 25):34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ Going to church doesn’t make one a Christian any more than sleeping in the garage makes one a Mercedes Benz…-------------------------------------------------------------------------And the Devil may quote scripture, particularly christian scripture which is an utter mess depending on the translation.Trouble is no one knows what a christian is. However it is beyond doubt that the Holocaust was conducted by professing Christians and that the great purges were ordered by a former]seminarian Tue 01 Mar 2011 10:10:00 GMT+1 SONICBOOMER http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=82#comment269 267, 'Curious American' you are clearly not that curious, if you were, you'd know what you said was not only nonsense, it is rather offensive nonsense.Thanks for spitting on the graves on all the UK, Canadian, French (yes them too), German, Dutch and others have have, are, fighting and dying in Afghanistan. Add Iraq losses to the UK list too.In 2006-2009 Canada had the highest proportion of combat losses as a proportion of forces deployed in Afghanistan, in the very tough southern districts. An area left to fester after the US pulled what forces they did have there from 2002, to go on the Iraq adventure.When the NATO members you seem to despise had to fill that gap they entered a zone where Taliban forces had been effectively left to re-group, for the UK and Canada, it was to be the hardest fighting since the Korean War.Since a few mouse clicks could take you to sources for this information, what gives?Are you really that ignorant? As pointed out before, based on facts, US citizens have been evacuated from Libya by UK armed forces.Once you've found that what I've written above is in fact the case, not whatever you seem to think, an apology would be nice, this is after all a site effectively paid for by UK citizens.Comment is free, manners cost nothing either. Tue 01 Mar 2011 08:55:26 GMT+1 champagne_charlie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=81#comment268 #257quietoaktree;"The world would be a better place if ALL honored their victims. "The world would have been a better place if those Jews weren't deported , stuck in concentration camps and gassed in the first place. But if absolution is indeed measureable by Euros spent or numbers of memorials erected, then Berlin is now the most absolved place on the planet. Tue 01 Mar 2011 08:19:47 GMT+1 CuriousAmerican http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=81#comment267 266. At 04:28am on 01 Mar 2011, Oldloadr wrote:Yes, and he sold SAMs to Saddam well into 2003 (the lot numbers were 2003, no mistake since the French use NATO standardized marking and tracking systems). When the Poles discovered it, the French tried to blackmail them to stay silent (threatened to veto Poland’s entry into the EU). --------------------------------------------------------------...but...but...but the media told me it was Bush, Haliburton and the Tea Party who sold him the weapons....How can this be? Tue 01 Mar 2011 04:56:17 GMT+1 CuriousAmerican http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=81#comment266 Euros and libs...this is the a pefect time to show us cowboys "how its done" and take care of this little problem in Libya. It's on YOUR back door. Why do WE need to do ANYTHING? You're buying your oil from this wack job not us.Oh..I forgot...its because you REFUSE to do anything.Lets see how many UN "harshly worded letters to Mommy, in all caps" it will take. Tue 01 Mar 2011 04:53:19 GMT+1 Oldloadr http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=80#comment265 264. At 03:16am on 01 Mar 2011, powermeerkat wrote:Re #263 Chryses..."Here?! In Casablanca?! Shock! Shock!"P.S. It was the French themselves who called one of their leaders known for selling Saddam all the toys he wanted - Jacques Iraq. Not me.[Although many referred to him later simply as "Mr. 5%"]_____________________________________________________________Yes, and he sold SAMs to Saddam well into 2003 (the lot numbers were 2003, no mistake since the French use NATO standardized marking and tracking systems). When the Poles discovered it, the French tried to blackmail them to stay silent (threatened to veto Poland’s entry into the EU). Tue 01 Mar 2011 04:28:50 GMT+1 Oldloadr http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=80#comment264 250. At 8:58pm on 28 Feb 2011, John_From_Dublin wrote:It took place in Europe, which was mostly a Christian continent. Not one of the Germans involved in the Holocaust was a Christian? Not one of those who collaborated in conquered countries was a Christian? (AFAIK the Vichy regime in France was a conservative Catholic one.)____________________________________________________________________http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25&version=NIVAccording to the eternal head of the universal Church (From Matthew 25):34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ Going to church doesn’t make one a Christian any more than sleeping in the garage makes one a Mercedes Benz… Tue 01 Mar 2011 04:16:17 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=80#comment263 Re #263 Chryses..."Here?! In Casablanca?! Shock! Shock!"P.S. It was the French themselves who called one of their leaders known for selling Saddam all the toys he wanted - Jacques Iraq. Not me.[Although many referred to him later simply as "Mr. 5%"] Tue 01 Mar 2011 03:16:06 GMT+1 Chryses http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=79#comment262 Powermeerkat, (#227. At 1:37pm on 28 Feb 2011)”... some African countries might be much more concerned that in 2008 the Rwandan government linked Juppe to Rwanda Massacre via infamous "French Connection".[that's what I meant by 'tainted']”Pfui!! Mere coincidences. That people should give even a second thought to such vile canards is outrageous!The very notion that a Minister of the Fifth Republic could engage in unseemly behavior is absurd! Tue 01 Mar 2011 02:48:41 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=79#comment261 Chryses asks: "How tall is George Soros?"He's almost as tall as Sarko and Gazputin.John Kerry, on the other hand... Tue 01 Mar 2011 02:37:44 GMT+1 Chryses http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=79#comment260 Simon21, (#233. At 3:28pm on 28 Feb 2011)”... The difference is on Mohammed's successsion not on essentials of the faith. Both use the Quaran (the same book), the same language of prayer, both use the same mosques ...You are mistaken. The great majority of Muslims consider Hadith to be essential supplements to and clarifications of the Koran. The two main denominations of Islam, the Shia and the Sunni, have different collections of Hadith. This is analogous to the different collections of books in the Catholic versus the Protestant Bibles.Sunni/Shia violence persists to this day from Pakistan to Yemen. Tue 01 Mar 2011 01:51:30 GMT+1 Interestedforeigner http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=78#comment259 358 MJThey don't have to trust the Americans.They can ask for a no-fly zone enforced by whoever they please. It can be done under the auspices of the UN, the EU, or NATO. China has signaled that it won't make trouble, so, for once, the UN is a possibility.Here are some who would accept, for certain: US, UK, Germany, Canada, Australia, Netherlands.Here are some who might help: Norway, Poland, Belgium, Denmark, Turkey, Egypt(?)Here are some who might be shamed into helping: Italy, France, Spain.It wouldn't have to be an American show. On the other hand, though, gosh, the Americans have some pretty sophisticated whizz-bang stuff.----------The thing is, a no fly zone isn't really what is required.What is required is a zone where the protesters, i.e., the legitimate representatives of the people of Libya, can use the military aircraft of Libya as may be suitable to put down a lawless gang led by a madman.Libya could call on its well-wishers to use air power to open the roads into Tripoli; to deny mobility to the madman; to provide intelligence; and to facilitate all of the logistical tasks of the Libyan armed forces.Libyans have a huge opportunity: Virtually every nation in Europe and North America, and many, many other nations around the world is on the side of the people of Libya. That goodwill is a huge resource.Here's their message to the people of Libya:You don't have to walk alone. Tue 01 Mar 2011 01:40:41 GMT+1 Chryses http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=78#comment258 chronophobe, (#243. At 5:35pm on 28 Feb 2011)”... Be afraid. Be very afraid.”How tall is George Soros? Tue 01 Mar 2011 01:33:27 GMT+1 modernJan http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=78#comment257 @255. At 10:41pm on 28 Feb 2011, Interestedforeigner The Libyans don't trust Anerica on this one because they don't believe America will be truly altruistic. Also, any military intervention would be a total nightmare because Americans, being foreigners, won't be able to properly distinguish between Gadaffi's forces and those of the opposition (often wearing the same clothes and fielding the same weapons).A no-fly zone enforced by American (and European) fighters could make the Libyans trust Westerners a little more and also help them advance their revolution without all the negative side effect of military intervention. Mon 28 Feb 2011 23:53:05 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=78#comment256 The world would be a better place if ALL honored their victims. http://www.flickr.com/photos/cam37/3224697673/ --and not their heroes who murdered them. Mon 28 Feb 2011 23:03:57 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=77#comment255 #250 John_from_dublin"‘Saul Friedländer writes that: "Not one social group, not one religious community, not one scholarly institution or professional association in Germany and throughout Europe declared its solidarity with the Jews."[36] He writes that some Christian churches declared that converted Jews should be regarded as part of the flock, but even then only up to a point.’"http://www.auschwitz.dk/docu/Default.htmDon´t forget the Communists, Social Democrats and the ´underground railways´-- we do not need lies or misrepresentation on the topic.It is the same as saying no Israeli or Jew would help a Palestinian ! Mon 28 Feb 2011 22:49:55 GMT+1 Interestedforeigner http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=77#comment254 #"2133: Al-Jazeera's Dima Khatib tweets: "Ms Clinton: the Libyan people do not want your country's military intervention. Please listen to them. They say it out loud&clear #libya""___________The thing is, Dima, according to the Libyan pilots in Benghazi who have changed sides, the madman still retains the use of surface to air missiles, and apparently the use of an airfield and aircraft.Mass demonstrations are good for civil protest, but they aren't a very good way of taking on dug-in armour in an urban environment. They are, in fact, a fairly good way of committing suicide.For example, even in a tropical jungle with a very constricted field of fire, a relative handful of US marines using a very small number of 37mm anti-tank guns firing canister shot were able to beat back massed charge after massed charge of Japanese infantry on Guadalcanal.There were thousands of Japanese dead piled up in front of those guns.----------As far as I can tell, there are something like 1.5m people being held hostage in Tripoli. They are apparently short of both food and water. That has all the makings of an humanitarian disaster.Do you really think the parents in Tripoli, who today seem to have been compelled to let their school children be used as hostages, should have to endure that any longer? How much longer do you think that should go on?There are also protesters in Zawiya who are surrounded, and possibly short of supplies. It is important that they get help before they are overrun. Again, that has the makings of a disaster.This isn't going to end until the bad guys are driven out.They aren't going to be driven out except by military force.----------The Libyan protesters aren't stupid, and they sure don't lack for courage.All the same, it isn't at all clear that the protesters in Libya have the weapons, the transport, or the logistical support to get that job done, even assuming that enough trained military personnel have changed sides. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Either way, it may not be all that easy a task.To deal with dug in armour, it is usually handy to have air support. But air support can't operate very well in a ground attack mode when there are surface-to-air missile batteries still in operation, and, further, the people trying to masse up and charge the dug in armour are vulnerable to air attack by helicopter gunships and to conventional bombing.This is a hard enough task, even with proper air support. Without air support, well, a lot of people could easily be killed for no good reason.In those circumstances, having someone who will suppress the helicopter gunships and the fixed wing aircraft might be handy.It is not outside the realm of possibility that America could loan the use of appropriate equipment to Libya, including drones or long range stand-off weapons that could solve several of those problems without getting the attackers killed in their hundreds or thousands.So the question, really, boils down to: how many Libyans would you prefer to die rather than borrow the right tools for the job?Dima, if you are one of the people who are prepared to stand in the front ranks and charge dug in positions en masse, then I guess you can reject help all you want.But if you aren't, I'd be asking the Libyan young men who are whether they would like to attack those positions with air support, or without air support.This is a decision for Libyans to make.This thing needs to end.It needs to end now.Every day it drags on, it merely gets worse. For everybody.If the Libyans ask for assistance, then give them that assistance right away, and get this thing over with. Mon 28 Feb 2011 22:41:13 GMT+1 McJakome http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=77#comment253 I was going to apologize for going off topic with an excursion into theology and trip down memory lane to the Civil war. But giant lizard conspiracy and Muslim unfinished business [religious civil war] makes me believe that I am not that off topic. I do need to make an explanation and to remind you that Justin Webb actually addressed the contentious issue of religion in America.My reference to War of Southern aggression was to show that War of Northern Aggression was equally absurd and one sided. If you want to call it the War Between the States instead of Civil War I have no problem with that because it is defensible.Relevence of religion and civil war is very much a hot topic. The Blue vs Red map is frighteningly reminiscent of the Blue vs Gray maps of the past. Like the previous civil war, the situation in the US is being fanned by extremists on both sides. There were FOX "news" equivalents on both sides leading up to the Civil War, There were fanatics like John Brown and the traitors who opened fire on Ft. Sumpter. This is an important issue because if Americans allow the fanatics and inciters to control the debate, hostility could turn much more serious than it already has. Both sides are aggressive, those who want to officially define the US as a Christian Country and put the Bible into science classes are aggressing, and the extreme secularists return the aggression by demanding the removal of religious issues from all public spaces. Moderate Americans, probably still in the majority, IMHO wish both sides would cool it. However, FOX "news" keeps beating the Lambeg drum of War on Christians and War on Christmas to keep the insecure right wing in a tizzy, and their over-the-top reactions inflame the minority of secularists who have more reason to fear, since 80% of Americans identify themselves as Christian.Mr. Mardell could hardly ask for a topic that is so important and controversial. And making Christians look even worse are groups like the fanatics of the Westborough Baptist "Church" who stage anti-homosexual protests at American military funerals. They make Christians look like barbarians, and the Christian majority in the US has been no more successful at dealing with this than peaceful Muslims have at dealing with their barbarians.On top of it all, as far as the topicality of this issue for a BBC reporter, the US is the only major, highly developed nation with advanced technology in which religion is not in serious decline. It is incomprehensible and a situation of considerable fascination in Britain and Europe. Thus it seems that the issues merit more rather than less attention. With apologies to Mark Mardell for sticking my nose into his business. Mon 28 Feb 2011 22:34:03 GMT+1 MagicKirin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=76#comment252 ref #246 dceilar wrote:Mark, as you are North America editor how about giving us some analysis of what's happening in America and not the State Dept's views on Arab democracy (you only have to look at what the West did after the fair and free elections in Palestine where the locals voted the wrong way to know where the US stands on Arab democracy). How about what's going on in Madison, Wisconsin, where more than 10,000—some say tens of thousands of people, teachers, students, are protesting in the Capitol building, schools closed etc.______No reason the U.S has to give support to people who elected a group of islamic terrorists. hitler was also elected. There is no difference in that both are evil.In regard to the protester in WI, theyt are trying to disenfranchise the voters who elected the current govenor and legislature Mon 28 Feb 2011 21:53:07 GMT+1 SONICBOOMER http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=76#comment251 It does seem that both the US and UK are considering a 'No Fly Zone'.Even if it is symbolic, recent reports of Gadaffi's use of air power, seemed to be limited to a pilot 'bombing' a target well away actual.......well targets. Then ejected.I doubt if he, however deluded he truly is, can trust his armed forces, least of all the AF.(His distrust of the Army made him keep it weak, he should know, as an Army officer who seized power in 1969).However, even limited action such as a no fly zone could not be seriously planned while so many of your own citizens were there, potential hostages.Since that seems to have been as resolved as much as possible, things might change.Even so, surely a NFZ has to be the limit of any intervention, aside from extracting yours and the nationals of friendly nations.So far, hostile 'action' against Western forces on rescue missions has been a bullet entering the cockpit of an RAF C-130, bouncing off one of the crew's helmet. (Already a spent round?)The source was the rebels, who have apologised as they thought the transport aircraft was in the service of the mad Colonel.However minor, that is a warning about the dangers of rapidly thought out intervention into a confused and fluid situation. Mon 28 Feb 2011 21:47:00 GMT+1 wolfvorkian http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=76#comment250 John_From_Dublin wrote: You then say ‘There were no Christians participating in the Holocaust.’ (This is in reference to an Oldloadr post.)This one caught my eye too since it was so whacked out. Reminds me of the time I was about 30' from Bill Bennett, the old drug czar, and he make the statement that WoodStock never occurred. I laughed so hard and long that besides his face turning a crimson red he lit another cigarette even though he already had 2 going. Mon 28 Feb 2011 21:26:54 GMT+1 John_From_Dublin http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=75#comment249 239. At 4:32pm on 28 Feb 2011, Oldloadr wrote:“235. At 3:29pm on 28 Feb 2011, Simon21 wrote:Leaving out the fact of the holocaust - conducted and enforced by christians, as was Rwanda___________________________________________Do you really believe that?Guess you have never heard of Martin Niemöller and his colleagues.http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6llerHow about Pope John Paul II…http://www.post-gazette.com/forum/20000305rodgers3.aspMaybe Cory Ten Boomhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrie_ten_BoomThese are just a small sample of what Christians did during the Holocaust. There were no Christians participating in the Holocaust.”__________________Your exact logic escapes me. I only clicked on one of your links. Your argument seems to be that some Christians resisted the Nazis. Who could doubt it?You then say ‘There were no Christians participating in the Holocaust.’How do you know exactly?It took place in Europe, which was mostly a Christian continent. Not one of the Germans involved in the Holocaust was a Christian? Not one of those who collaborated in conquered countries was a Christian? (AFAIK the Vichy regime in France was a conservative Catholic one.)Or is your case that anyone involved in the Holocaust was by definition not a Christian? Which is a classically circular argument. From Wiki, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Compliance_of_Germany.27s_institutions – ‘Every arm of the country's sophisticated bureaucracy was involved in the killing process. Parish churches and the Interior Ministry supplied birth records showing who was Jewish’And ‘Saul Friedländer writes that: "Not one social group, not one religious community, not one scholarly institution or professional association in Germany and throughout Europe declared its solidarity with the Jews."[36] He writes that some Christian churches declared that converted Jews should be regarded as part of the flock, but even then only up to a point.’ Mon 28 Feb 2011 20:58:59 GMT+1 Interestedforeigner http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=75#comment248 1854: Guardian correspondent Martin Chulov tweets: "Rebel military leaders told me tonight they haven't enough arms and would accept foreign air force help."Hmm. Mon 28 Feb 2011 19:58:00 GMT+1 Interestedforeigner http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=75#comment247 The Libyan government has made repeated attempts to re-take Zawiya to the west of Tripoli. Clearly it seems to be a matter of urgency for them.There is an oil refinery at Zawiya. It makes you wonder what the madman's fuel supplies are like.It would be a really good idea for that oil refinery to stay in the hands of the protesters. The protesters in Zawiyah seem to be surrounded. How many casualties have they taken? How much food, water, and ammunition do they have? Perhaps the protesters could do with some help.----------Much the same comment might be made about airfields.It would be a really good idea for flights to Byelorussia, and other Madman-air operations, to be suspended pending further notice. Military aircraft consume high quality aviation spirit. They also require a lot of spares and servicing, helicopters even more so than fixed-wing aircraft.They'd be pretty stuck without jet fuel and spare parts. Or a landing field. Mon 28 Feb 2011 19:21:17 GMT+1 The Cool Ruler Rides Again http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=75#comment246 This post has been Removed Mon 28 Feb 2011 18:36:58 GMT+1 dceilar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=74#comment245 Mark, as you are North America editor how about giving us some analysis of what's happening in America and not the State Dept's views on Arab democracy (you only have to look at what the West did after the fair and free elections in Palestine where the locals voted the wrong way to know where the US stands on Arab democracy). How about what's going on in Madison, Wisconsin, where more than 10,000—some say tens of thousands of people, teachers, students, are protesting in the Capitol building, schools closed etc.The great achievement in the lame-duck session for which Obama is greatly praised by Democratic Party leaders is that they achieved bipartisan agreement on several measures. The most important one was the tax cut. And the issue in the tax cut—there was only one issue—should there be a tax cut for the very rich? The population was overwhelmingly against it, I think about two to one. There wasn’t even a discussion of it, they just gave it away. And the very same time, the less noticed was that Obama declared a tax increase for federal workers. Now, it wasn’t called a "tax increase"; it’s called a "freeze."So he basically declared an increase in taxes for federal workers at the same time that there’s a tax decrease for the very rich. More here: http://www.democracynow.org/2011/2/17/democracy_uprising_in_the_usa_noam Mon 28 Feb 2011 18:34:33 GMT+1 Scott0962 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=74#comment244 And once again a serious topic of relevance in today's news degenerates into wrangling over tidbits that have little or nothing to do with the topic posted. Mark, I thought it was a nice piece. And to get my two cents worth in: President Obama is being less supportive of the Libyan protestors than I would personally like to see a president of my country but to be fair, he's tiptoeing through a diplomatic minefield where the slightest misstep would offend some group or another in Europe or the Muslim world from the unpredictable and still dangerous Colonel Gaddaffi himself to the King of Saudi Arabia who faces unrest in his own country but has still taken action to stablize the world oil market and preserve the global economic recovery. It's a very delicate situation. Mon 28 Feb 2011 18:34:28 GMT+1 The Cool Ruler Rides Again http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=74#comment243 This post has been Removed Mon 28 Feb 2011 18:25:15 GMT+1 chronophobe http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=73#comment242 re: 221 Dublin JohnChrono, I really think you should be more careful about linking to theories that ‘a secret group of reptilian humanoids called the Babylonian Brotherhood controls humanity, and that many prominent figures are reptilian, including George W. Bush, Queen Elizabeth II, Kris Kristofferson, and Boxcar Willie’.Ah, but you see, Icke fails to account for the true nature of our terrible dilemma. From my readings here, I have been lead to the real truth: not only are there ten foot extraterrestrial lizards leading us astray by tales of one world government, there are, even more insidiously, two foot trolls from the centre of the earth seeking to enslave us in their subterranean work shops. Led by one such who appears to us as a certain Australian billionaire, they are engaged in a clash of titans with the lizards. Well, a big lizard/gnarly little troll confrontation, at least. So you see, it's much worse than Icke and his fellow travellers realise. We hapless humaniods are pawns in the battle between not one, but in fact two dark forces. Our only help for salvation? I'm thinking of founding a 'resistance commune,' some where deep in the bush. Or maybe on a beach. Yes, definitely someplace warm, someplace inviting to the young, the wealthy, the disaffected. And with ready access to a Swiss bank account. Ahem. But I digress. Be afraid. Be very afraid. Mon 28 Feb 2011 17:35:40 GMT+1 quietoaktree http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=73#comment241 --Here we go,--- again and again and again !http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/02/2011227153626965756.html Mon 28 Feb 2011 17:11:00 GMT+1 leontotsky http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=73#comment240 It would be wise of other countries to separate themselves from American efforts. A majority of those from Morocco to Oman believe that US policy is controlled by Israel and her US lobbies, and so will reject out of hand any advice and aid coming from America no matter how beneficial it would be. Mon 28 Feb 2011 16:53:25 GMT+1 powermeerkat http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=72#comment239 Re #233 I don't think vicious conflicts between Shia and Sunni over who won the the Battle of Siffin (657 A.D.), who was the 1st Imam, where is te 12th one hiding and who decapitated/poisoned which Muslim sect's leader first can be described as "political and economic, not religious". ;-)BTW. There are conflicting reports as to where Qaddafi is hiding. Mon 28 Feb 2011 16:43:10 GMT+1 Oldloadr http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=72#comment238 235. At 3:29pm on 28 Feb 2011, Simon21 wrote:Leaving out the fact of the holocaust - conducted and enforced by christians, as was Rwanda___________________________________________Do you really believe that?Guess you have never heard of Martin Niemöller and his colleagues.http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6llerHow about Pope John Paul II…http://www.post-gazette.com/forum/20000305rodgers3.aspMaybe Cory Ten Boomhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrie_ten_BoomThese are just a small sample of what Christians did during the Holocaust. There were no Christians participating in the Holocaust. Mon 28 Feb 2011 16:32:51 GMT+1 Andy Post http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=72#comment237 Ref. 235, Simon21:"Leaving out the fact of the holocaust - conducted and enforced by christians, as was Rwanda"Not really: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_aspects_of_Nazism Mon 28 Feb 2011 16:16:11 GMT+1 Andy Post http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=71#comment236 Ref. 209, my own post:Interesting thread.Is there full moon over Britain right now? (oops) Mon 28 Feb 2011 16:09:53 GMT+1 champagne_charlie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=71#comment235 #235simon21The nutshell I was referring to is the root cause of problems in the Middle east and North Africa, such as Shia/Sunni tribal conflict and foreign power interference, who universally misunderstood the region. I didn't make any reference to any other part of humanity or human history. Mon 28 Feb 2011 15:56:54 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=71#comment234 230. At 1:51pm on 28 Feb 2011, champagne_charlie wrote:#228powermeerkat;"That's nothing: if memory serves a bloody family feud between Shias and Sunnis has been going on for well over a millennium and there's no end in sight."Add the Ottoman and European "lines in the sand" and thats the whole thing in a nutshell.------------------------------------------------------------------------Leaving out the fact of the holocaust - conducted and enforced by christians, as was Rwanda Mon 28 Feb 2011 15:29:33 GMT+1 strontiumdog http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=71#comment233 re230Add the Ottoman and European "lines in the sand" and thats the whole thing in a nutshell.--------------------------------------------Very true the First World War must be the most destructive family feud of all time.. Mon 28 Feb 2011 15:28:19 GMT+1 Simon21 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=70#comment232 228. At 1:45pm on 28 Feb 2011, powermeerkat wrote:Re #226That's nothing: if memory serves a bloody family feud between Shias and Sunnis has been going on for well over a millennium and there's no end in sight.[so much for dreams about pan-Arabic Union]-------------------------------------------------------------------------Well apart from the fact that not all arabs are moslems, so the issue does not arise, this old shibboleth needs putting to bed.Shia/sunni differences are vastly less than those that exist between the christian sects and have occasioned vastly less bloodshed.The difference is on Mohammed's successsion not on essentials of the faith. Both use the Quaran (the same book), the same language of prayer, both use the same mosques.Compare this to christianity where members of the same faith cannot even agree on the wording of the alleged founder's own prayer and have burned each other is vast numbers over quarrels about the real presence - then even an idiot can see the difference is vast.There is evidence that the founders of Islam were aware of the murderous disoputes between christians as the religion was foundedDisputes in the arab world are political and economic, not religious. Mon 28 Feb 2011 15:28:18 GMT+1 modernJan http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=70#comment231 These politicians have either been asleep when in the past the **** hit the fan in so many other dictatorships (some of them supported by those same politicans) or they're just damn evil: abusing the publicity surrounding Libya to score political points. Either way they're nothing to be proud of. Mon 28 Feb 2011 14:29:28 GMT+1 Interestedforeigner http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=70#comment230 229. At 1:50pm on 28 Feb 2011, Oldloadr wrote:"The husbands of her half-sisters, Martha White and Elodie Dawson were ardent supporters of the Confederacy.http://www.firstladies.org/biographies/firstladies.aspx?biography=17"__________And it caused quite a fuss when her sister was given, by executive order, a pass through union lines to come and visit at the White House during the war. Mon 28 Feb 2011 14:14:45 GMT+1 champagne_charlie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=69#comment229 #228powermeerkat;"That's nothing: if memory serves a bloody family feud between Shias and Sunnis has been going on for well over a millennium and there's no end in sight."Add the Ottoman and European "lines in the sand" and thats the whole thing in a nutshell. Mon 28 Feb 2011 13:51:54 GMT+1 Oldloadr http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/2011/02/uncertainty_surrounds_us_sanct.html?page=69#comment228 226. At 12:30pm on 28 Feb 2011, strontiumdog007 wrote:Unfortunately family feuds tend to be the most ruthless and bloody. At least the divisions were drawn by geography and not so much by ideology unlike the “war of independence” also sometimes referred to as America’s first civil war. ______________________________________________________________For some reason, Abraham Lincoln's father did not want him to take a Yankee wife, even though he moved the family to Illinois. So he got Abe hitched up (yet, that's how we still say it) with Mary Todd from the old home state of KY.Now, think you have ever had in-law problems? Check this out:Mary Lincoln's brother George R.C. Todd and her half-brothers Alexander Todd, David Todd, and Samuel Todd all fought in the Confederate Army during the Civil War. Alexander Todd was killed at Baton Rouge. Samuel Todd was killed in the Battle of Shiloh. David Todd was wounded at Vicksburg. Her half-sister Emilie Helm's husband was a Confederate general killed at Chickamauga. The husbands of her half-sisters, Martha White and Elodie Dawson were ardent supporters of the Confederacy.http://www.firstladies.org/biographies/firstladies.aspx?biography=17 Mon 28 Feb 2011 13:50:41 GMT+1